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Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer- not a single American car made it into the top 10 Consumer Reports in any category. If you look at reliability ratings Toyota is top, Honda second. My experience was just as you say: anecdotal. Fortunately someone is actually tracking consumer experience on a broad basis, so my experience is pretty much in-line with the overall.

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AFA gas-guzzling vehicles: People don't buy vehicles BECAUSE they're gas-guzzling

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And the point is they don't HAVE to be. The big automakers could provide vehicles with all the cush that some folks demand AND better gas mileage...

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I have no problems whatsoever with the idea of significantly raising the CAFE standards. Do you?

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They buy vehicles which have to be large and heavy to perform the tasks they're designed for: large cargo and passenger capacity, off-road ability, performance, ego satisfaction. These large, heavy, powerful vehicles just aren't going to get good mileage.

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Ayad Allawi says Sunday that Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki is loyal to Iran and Shiite interests. However, Ayad Allawi's ties to a powerful Washington-based GOP lobbying firm is raising eyebrows as President Bush has adamantly expressed his support for al-Maliki. {That won't last long} Speaking from Amman, Jordan, Allawi told ... Wolf Blitzer that he will push for "a less sectarian, nonsectarian course" when he goes back to Baghdad next week -- and al-Maliki's ouster may be part of the solution.

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Allawi has hired Barbour Griffith & Rogers, a GOP lobbying firm ... "We are asking this firm to help us to advocate our views, the views of the nationalistic Iraqis, the nonsectarian Iraqis," he said, adding that he is not directly paying the firm. "This payment is made by an Iraqi person who is a supporter of us of the {Iraqi National Accord}, of myself, of our program -- and he has supported this wholeheartedly without any strings attached."

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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They buy vehicles which have to be large and heavy to perform the tasks they're designed for: large cargo and passenger capacity, off-road ability, performance, ego satisfaction. These large, heavy, powerful vehicles just aren't going to get good mileage.

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This is the nub where you and I disagree. Large cargo capacity, off-road capability, performance and ego satisfaction... AND safety...AND loyalthy to American products... do not HAVE to be linked with 12 mpg.
These vehicles will prolly never get 30 mpg (unless they're completely redesigned as hybrids) but they CAN achieve an average 20 mpg with minor re-engineering. The full-size Suzuki gets 17-23 mpg, is built on a box frame and has a 5-star crash rating and good towing capacity.

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There's a lot of technology out there to spare that could raise the mileage from the pathetic 10-13 mpg range that typifies most of the line to 14-19 mpg. Not a "good" mileage mind you, but "better" than current.

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As much as you whine and cry and wring your hands, the fact is that the ONLY reason American auto mfrs haven't improved their mileage is because it costs them money. There is no technical reason not to improve mpg on the American line.... especially on the line of full-size SUVs and pickups.

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BTW- I know you keep trying to MISrepresent me, and Rue, and anyone else who disagrees with your right-wing views as "conspiracy theorists"

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Well, considering that you believe all American trucks and SUVs get less than 13MPG, I guess I might have been wrong.

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... raise the mileage from the pathetic 10-13 mpg range that typifies most of the line to 14-19 mpg.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
And that's the point of the CAFE standards Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) is the sales weighted average fuel economy, expressed in miles per gallon (mpg), of a manufacturer’s fleet of passenger cars or light trucks with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 8,500 lbs. or less, Note the word AVERAGE. Not a model here or there, but the sales-weighted AVERAGE. And that is affected by the whole line of model offerings and relative prices.

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but please, let's stop bailing them out when they are about to go belly up.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
So, here is the city mpg of American full size SUVs across the board; I omitted the Ford and Mercury hybrids which are considered small size and also too expensive to make much difference in CAFE. There is some variation depending on whether you get 2WD or 4WD or 6 or 8 cylinders, but I think these are all the full-size SUVs (and maybe some of the mid-sized ones too):

Dodge Durango 11-12
...
etc., etc., etc.
www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byclass.htm

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And that's the point of the CAFE standards Corporate Average Fuel Economy ... Note the word AVERAGE. Not a model here or there, but the sales-weighted AVERAGE. And that is affected by the whole line of model offerings and relative prices.

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No full-size foreign SUV gets better than 14MPG city. So even the Japanese and European makers can't provide a full-size SUV that gets better mileage than the American versions. Those lazy bastards.

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So if CAFE goes up, manufacturers are forced to make less of the vehicles people want to buy, forcing folk to settle for what they don't want. It's interesting that if there's a slight possibility that the government might listen in on your phone conversation with Aunt Suha in Baghdad, you are all up in arms about the loss of your freedoms, but if the government is going to tell folks what type of vehicle they have to buy, that's fine with you. Looks like your fear of government limiting your freedoms is kind of conditional.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer- Those are the mpgs of the vehicles they sell HERE. The vehicles they sell THERE are not the same. Why? Because EU standards won't let them!

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Wow. You've gone off the deep. The government is not going to force people to buy something they don't like.- Signy

"The vehicles they sell THERE are not the same. Why? Because EU standards won't let them!"-Signy

So not letting folks buy what they want is different from forcing people to buy what they don't like - How, exactly?-Geezer

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Nobody in the world is capable of producing a more powerful engine with better fuel economy. Give me one example of a commercially built vehicle from Europe or Japan that produces meaningfully better mileage than an American vehicle of the same size, weight, engine capacity power, performance, and price.

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Ever try hauling a half-ton of hay or gravel, or fenceposts, or feed, or bricks, or whatever in a Prius? While towing a 6000 lb horse trailer?

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Most of the things you note (aside from E-85, which is pretty much homemade hydrocarbon fuel) are still lab experiments and still years away from any possible commercial application, assuming they ever become commercially viable.

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Dr. Schmidt himself is quoted as saying "This is fundamental research, and a lot of steps are still required to turn it into a viable technology."

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... has just been published, so it's probably not even completed peer-review. They will publish their findings in the February {2007} issue of the journal Chemical Engineering Science.

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BTW, fuel cells produce water vapor, the leading greenhouse gas.

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None of this stuff is ready to go into production, and probably won't be for a while.

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Also, consider that there are other technologies out there which also show promise. Should we just go into full-scale production of five or ten different, unproven, competing systems, or take the time to find out what's going to be the most effective.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
"Not the same" doesn't mean unacceptable, it means NOT THE SAME. It could mean BETTER.

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As far as direct comparisons, I don't think I will be able to find a comparable vehicle because the EU has gone heavly in the turbo-diesel direction while the Japanese have headed in the hybrid direction, and both have much better fuel economy than what I'm suggesting. I don't think "comps are possible.

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Like I said, you're dragging this conversation into the mud. Let's focus on the issues instead of hyperbole, OK?

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Originally posted by rue:
"E-85 ... homemade hydrocarbon fuel"

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"Most of the things you note ... are still lab experiments" -- But they are GEARED TO CREATING VIABLE COMMERCIAL TECHNOLOGIES, when a 'successful' experiment results in a viable product.

The original reports are available in Science, for those with a subscription. In it you'll find the successfully completed work creating a product that is rugged, veratile, cheap and efficient.

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Originally posted by rue:
"Millions of people in the US use trucks and SUVs every day to do their jobs."

SUV's and trucks are the male equivalent of minivans and passenger cars, which the US male population thinks of (minivans especially) as being too effeminate.

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If the SUVs and trucks have a legitimate business function they should be registered to a business, tax-exempt by the business and insured by the business. Otherwise, they're a passenger vehicle and should be regulated the same way.

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Sounds like a copout to me. Vehicles, from econo-boxes to SUVs made in Amreica have pretty much the same mileage as equivilent European and Japanese vehicles. I note that you dropped the Ford Escape Hybrid out of your calculations earlier because it was "too expensive" but have no problem bringing up the Japanese hybrids now.

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Turbo-diesel adds quite a bit to cost, and requires re-engineering to meet US emission standards. BTW, diesel fuel is currently more expensive than premium gas.

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trimming the weight (a little), improving the jetting, increasing the compression ratio a bit, maybe going with a more efficient tranny... in other words, tweaking here and there while keeping the same basic technology (gasoline powered engine) and keeping the price within about 15%... something that would amortize over about 5 years in terms of fuel costs

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What hyperbole? Millions of people in the US use trucks and SUVs every day to do their jobs. Should we tell them they can't work because the US automakers can't legally produce enough heavy vehicles to go around?

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Doesn't matter how they're registered or taxed (aside from, oh, more government involvement in everyone's lives)

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Originally posted by SignyM:
relatively easy tweaks which you seem to be evading

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer- your argument about ranches or construction is baloney. If you own a business, your vehicle and gas are business expenses and your vehicle is depreciated over time.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Oh, and one suggesting for anyone who has to tow anything, we got a couple taxis that use a retrofitted transmission cooler unit - I *highly* suggest one of these for towing purposes, for such use it's almost worth it's weight in gold.

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Name one that's in use somewhere in the world today.

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Originally posted by rue:
dba - doing business as
{...}
Bottom line - I don't think the government is responsible for funding hobbies and frivolous uses.

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Originally posted by rue:
"Second, high CAFE standards effectively limit the number of heavy-duty - vehicles. If there's not enough to go around, folks go out of business."

This is the second time you've posted this and it still makes zero sense. These vehicles are already being manufactured and sold. People who obtain business exemptions will be able to purchase these CAFE-exempted vehicles at normal cost. There's nothing here to limit the number of these vehicles - just the number of consumers.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Toyota Announces New Intake Valve Lift and Timing System June 12, 2007.

GM’s powertrain line-up for 2008 includes... applying fuel-saving technologies such as Active Fuel Management (cylinder deactivation), direct injection, variable valve timing, and six-speed transmissions; and flexfuel options.

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Originally posted by rue:
Autos per se have applicable CAFE mileage standards. Light trucks just came under regulation.

What I'm proposing (which you seem to misunderstand) is that all trucks and SUVS also come under CAFE standards. This will improve US mileage considerably.

Those who need CAFE exempt vehicles (for heavy-duty business-use) must register and insure them under their business and MUST take them as tax-deductions from the business income. Others who merely want their toys would pay substantial disincentive taxes and vehicle registration. Capice ?

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I meant a transmission cooler, not a taxicab, Geeze - damn your such a fuckin brickhead it's not even possible to reason with you, it's like playin "Who's on first" or arguing with a religious zealot who keeps changing the meaning of the words on ya.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
As far as public transportation goes, if it didn't suck ever so terribly, and wasn't damned dangerous more folk would probably use it - admittedly my own experience is limited to baltimores MTA system, but when the bus stops are free feeding zones for muggers, and more than half the time they are so off schedule that the schedule itself is but a polite fiction, compounded by the fact that no employer will hire you *because* being dependant on MTA means there's no way in hell you will be dependably able to meet a schedule...

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