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Originally posted by rue:
So, you're saying that all that good looking economic data was just a bubble. Then you've come to agree with me.

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Originally posted by rue:
But you do mean that all that good looking economic data was just a bubble. Now, run along and explain that to Rap. And don't forget to mention to him that government policy has nothing to do with how the economy is doing, so that he doesn't keep trying to give Bush credit for the bubble.

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Having lived through several housing bubbles, stock bubbles etc. I knew that like all good bubbles, this too would come to a sudden and painful end. And not only would housing prices fall they would take out a whole list of other sectors domino-style. If you were to be able to ask my colleagues at work, you'd know that I've been joking for about a year to get ready to invest in bank stocks because they were going to drop. Nobody is talking "recession" much less "panic", but the depth of behind-the-scenes worry is indicated by the fact that Bush AND Bernanke look to step in big-time.

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News flash to SignyM - The original post was OVER 1 year old. We're talking 16 months before your sad addition to the thread. Go back almost a year and a half, and see what the Democrats were trying to sell about the economy.

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How many quarters of positive growth going on at the time ? How many STILL and counting?

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Yeah, the economy goes through cycles. Always has, always will. But that you had to wait almost 1 1/2 yrs before tacking on any BAD news only speaks poorly of the Democrats who took control of Congress last November, and nothing more.

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Because you've been repeatedly posting how GREAT the economy is ever since in many threads - most recently /in the last three months/ check that - one month ago.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Good call Signy and Rue, if only the rest of us posessed a fraction of your omniscience.
Thought I'd help out, your hands must be sore from all of the pats on your back.

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Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Forgive my change of subject but I'll get back to a relevant point at the end....

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Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Nobody, the only time I ever hear from you is when I've already got Finn, Hero, and Rap chewing on my pants legs and growling.

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Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
In this case all of you will have to settle for going yipe! because Rue and Signy are right, and Rap is being evasive and incoherant,

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Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
leave them alone and go back to your neocon lair where I'm sure the gang is feeding on fresh meat, plotting the destruction of the Muslim world, and thumbing through anything financial hoping to find something by some republican think tank foundation to run back with.

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Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
No offense I'm just in a grouchy mood.

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Originally posted by rue:
"News flash to SignyM - The original post was OVER 1 year old." News flash to Rap - It doesn't matter when that one thread was STARTED. Because you've been repeatedly posting how GREAT the economy is ever since in many threads - most recently /in the last three months/ check that - one month ago.

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Bush ... while cutting taxes, increasing revenue to the Treasury with 4 1/2 years of steady, economic growth.

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So, do you still think so ?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
But bubbles aren't caused by "human nature". That's the stupidest thing I ever heard, especially coming from a so-called economist. (But then I've always wondered about Greenspan. *rolls eyes*) Bubbles are caused by easy credit for speculative purposes.

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Always look upstream.

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And speculation is dumb, greedy human nature

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Auraptor- You feel free to pick and choose indicators because you haven't a clue how an economy works. For every positive indicator that you find, I can find two negatives. But rather than just throwing indicators at each other, let's have a discussion about what they mean. How does that sound?

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Sounds great, but for what point? To show how the Bush administration has destroyed or grown the US economy ? Or simply to have a talk of economics for the pure fun of it? To be honest, I've heard from several unbiased sources that it's been a mixed bag ( shocker ) but that Bush had been given more blame than his fair share of credit. But what's the old saying about finding 2 economist who agree on everything ? Well, I'm not an economist, and didn't make it much past supply/demand in Econ 101, but then I'm told that's all ya really need to know. Still, I do have a 'clue' of how the economy works. And I know that even in a depression, someone is making money. There's never been a time when all areas of the economy have been down. Not sure that can ever happen, short of a colossal war or natural catastrophy.

Of coruse, then there's the issue of at what point does the Fed Gov't have the obligation, or 'right' to step in and help a privately run industry ? That would take things in a whole new direction now, would it ?

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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...But rather than just throwing indicators at each other, let's have a discussion about what they mean. How does that sound?-Signy

Sounds great, but for what point?- Auraptor

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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And speculation is dumb, greedy human nature

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But Fletch2- All the speculative desire in the world goes nowhere unless money is chained to it. In fact, there can be a HUGE need for something but if the $$ isn't there it ain't gonna happen. And that's where economic policy and regulation comes in. After the stock market crash of 39 and the bank failures which resulted, regulations were put into place limiting the amount of credit you could use to buy stocks. And then there was the S&L crisis caused by a combination of Federal insurance and deregulation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_Loan_crisis For an economist- particularly one who used to be involved in government policy- to throw up his hands and say "It's human nature" is a pretty good argument to eliminate that person from any list of "experts".

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Always look upstream.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Fletch- I read your lots of words and all I get out of it is blather.

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Always look upstream.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
What I heard was: People will do what people will do despite government regulations and policies.

Now: IF government policy and regulation is so irrelevant, why worry about such policies as "capitalism" and "socialism"?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
What I heard was: People will do what people will do despite government regulations and policies.

Now: IF government policy and regulation is so irrelevant, why worry about such policies as "capitalism" and "socialism"?

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Always look upstream.

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Yes that's right even back then under communism there was a mafia run black market in the Soviet Union that bought and sold stuff and provided services that the government did not. Even stupid things like fixing your TV set or radio if they broke down.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
What I heard was: People will do what people will do despite government regulations and policies.

Now: IF government policy and regulation is so irrelevant, why worry about such policies as "capitalism" and "socialism"?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
SOx? The only SOx I know of is "oxides of sulfur".

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Anyway, I don't exactly have great faith in a centralized economy either. I just think it's a dodge to throw up your hands and say "People will be people" especially since we just had a savings and loan meltdown not more than 30 years ago for many of the same reasons. It's not as if the people at top are so disengaged that they haven't heard of reverse amortization or exploding loans and "no money down" and "no income verification". And if I could see where this all was heading why couldn't they? It could have easily been nipped by requiring a certain percent money down and income verification. (I can't believe I'm saying this... it's like an exact replay of the last housing bubble.)

So, why didn't they do anything?

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Always look upstream.

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The government doesnt get involved with the way that people make money UNTIL it becomes a political problem.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Why doesn't the government regulate ahead of time?

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Sure, why not let the government tell me when, where, and how to invest my money.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
But what if you limit people more than you limit business? Couple of examples, in greater detail:

Bankruptcy. If you are a business and you have unsecured loans, you may file for bankruptcy under Chapters 7 or 11. Under Chapter 7, all of your unsecured debts are wiped out. But if you are a person and you have unsecured debts (credit card, medical bills) you may NOT choose Chapter 7 if your income in geater than the median income. You MUST file under Ch 13 which will require you to pay off those "unsecured" loans.

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But businesses snoop into OUR affairs all of the time. They can not only search your office station and computer, they can also LEGALLY search your car (even off company property), your house, your records, and even require a drug test.

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I'll give you a real-life example: There was a garment sweatshop in NY that illegally w/held wages from its workers for over three weeks.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:


Because capitalism is freedom, and socialism is control, for starters.

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Corporate Bankruptcy - California
Corporate Bankruptcy is the filing of Chapter 7 or Chapter 11 by corporations and partnerships . On the filing of a Chapter 7 petition, the court appoints a trustee. The trustee's primary duty is to sell the assets of the bankruptcy estate, and then make distributions to creditors. The trustee's commissions and other administrative expenses are paid first, followed by payment of priority debts (often taxes), and then to general unsecured creditors on a pro rata basis.

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Perhaps a little restatement here. Businesses can track the usage of THEIR equipment by their employees. I'd be interested in cites for '...search your car, ... house, ... records.'

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So you're willing to pay the X% more goods and services would cost if business was taxed on income rather than profit?

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"Employers know that the workers can't complain, so they withhold wages, claiming manufacturers were slow to pay. It has become standard practice to withhold six weeks' pay or more." ... In the past five years only a handful of sweatshop owners has been prosecuted for failing to pay workers.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
So Fletch2, Geezer, or other wanna-be capitalists: do you have any inisght as to why this Administration would have stepped back previously in-place regulations which would have prevented the very problems that we're now seeing?

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