See The Competing Illegal Alien Stories Last Night? by Jongsstraw

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

See The Competing Illegal Alien Stories Last Night?

POSTED BY: JONGSSTRAW
UPDATED: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 13:28
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Thursday, October 18, 2007 4:05 AM

I'm flipping channels about 9:30 pm and I tune in CNN. Rick Sanchez is doing a Special on the impact of honest, law-abiding, working Mexicans who have decided to return to Mexico rather than face arrest and/or deportation. It was a very moving and compelling presentation I must admit. It made me see this issue from a side I haven't really thought much about. So far around 14,000 illegals have returned to Mexico and left their families in America.

When they went to commercial I tuned to Fox News, and Sean Hannity was doing Part 4 of a 5 or 6 part Special on the dangers of illegals in America.....the repeat criminal activites of some icluding, rapes, murders, etc. Multiple arrests, multiple releases...an endless cycle of violence with absolutley no justice for their victims. Very sad to watch the families of those murdered by people who shouldn't even be here.

Both sides have valid positions. I don't even know how I feel about it all anymore.

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 5:12 PM

LEADB

I have to admit, I have -very- mixed feelings about the illegal immigrant question. So often, they do work at pay no American will touch. And given what are, at the moment, historically low unemployment rates, I'm not convinced that if the pay were improved, the jobs would get filled.

My inclination is to combine some work program recognition for illegals currently trying to get by, converting these illegals into guest workers; cracking down -hard- on any employer not honoring the guest work program requirements. At the same time, make some provision for allowing folks coming up from Mexico relatively easy access to the worker program; and clamping hard on those coming in through illegal (ie: avoiding the guest worker program) channels. Yes, there's folks who will call this 'amnesty' but I'm a bit past the point of caring about that label... things are busted, and doing nothing simply shouldn't be an option.

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 5:39 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"So often, they do work at pay no American will touch." You should read the book "Nickel and Dimed" (Barbara Ehrenreich).

As a journalist she wondered what was the secret to surviving on minimum wages jobs. 'Surely they must have some trove of lore, some access to resources the rest of us don't know about'. It turns out there is no secret. Except working two (or more jobs), going without health care, and living out of your car, or sleeping on the floor of someone's place, or going homeless.

People won't touch 'those jobs' - the low wage ones - b/c they rightly know that those jobs are a trap. You spend so much time trying to cover necessities, you have nothing left to get out.

Instead of 'inviting' workers in - and at the same time driving down wages for everyone else - perhaps we should be thinking about a higher minimum wage, a different tax structure (maybe you haven't looked so far down on the IRS tax tables, but people far below the poverty line pay income tax), or health care for the working poor.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 6:05 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

It’s a complicated issue. I have no problems with Mexicans coming to this country, but we can’t have this 12 million strong unregulated underclass in this country, if for no other reason than because of the rape and pillage factor. I’m all in favor of a guest worker program, but how do you implement it without it becoming another attraction for illegals? If you just create the guest worker program without a legal means of putting people in it, it will just become an excuse for people to cross the border. So you have to create an entry point in Mexico, but that means dealing with the corrupt Mexican system, which is probably impossible. And you have to enforce the rules on this side of the border, which we’ve shown propensity for not doing. Anytime we try to enforce the law the open-border camp pulls out the Gestapo arguments.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, October 19, 2007 1:36 AM

LEADB

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"So often, they do work at pay no American will touch." You should read the book "Nickel and Dimed" (Barbara Ehrenreich).

As a journalist she wondered what was the secret to surviving on minimum wages jobs. 'Surely they must have some trove of lore, some access to resources the rest of us don't know about'. It turns out there is no secret. Except working two (or more jobs), going without health care, and living out of your car, or sleeping on the floor of someone's place, or going homeless.

People won't touch 'those jobs' - the low wage ones - b/c they rightly know that those jobs are a trap. You spend so much time trying to cover necessities, you have nothing left to get out.

Instead of 'inviting' workers in - and at the same time driving down wages for everyone else - perhaps we should be thinking about a higher minimum wage, a different tax structure (maybe you haven't looked so far down on the IRS tax tables, but people far below the poverty line pay income tax), or health care for the working poor.

I guess I should have written more; I was tired. Basically, we are on the same page. There has to be a minimum wage associated to the guest worker program. I'd be open to it, at least initially, being less than 'standard' minimum wage (after all,it clearly is now) but much closer to it.

Personally, I'd like to see minimum wage increased across the board; but it's going to be hard enough to get a guest worker program passed so I fear we'll have to leave those issues decoupled for the time being on a pragmatic basis.

As for income tax... I don't know that I'd do a 'full Ron Paul' ;-), but I have no qualms about eliminating it for anyone earning less than $100,000 per year, then adjust up for inflation (and don't, please, even get me started on AMT).

However, to get back to the topic at hand; say you do make those jobs the folks who are currently illegal imigrants have pay something resembling a living wage; do the math. 5% unemployment does not yield enough workers to get the work done.

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Friday, October 19, 2007 1:57 AM

SERGEANTX

no

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, October 19, 2007 2:28 AM

LEADB

So Sergeant, are you saying you want to round up all the illegal aliens and ship 'em home; or you like the status quo where we pretend it's ok for them to be here and pay them wages that depress earnings for US citizens?

Finn, all good concerns. As I mentioned, I have divided feelings on 'what to do' and you well expressed reservations I have with guest worker program.

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Friday, October 19, 2007 3:10 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Both sides have valid positions. I don't even know how I feel about it all anymore.

The crime rate among illegal immigrants is 100%. Thats much higher then any other Demographic (except Congressional Democrats).

H

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Friday, October 19, 2007 3:35 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Both sides have valid positions. I don't even know how I feel about it all anymore.

The crime rate among illegal immigrants is 100%. Thats much higher then any other Demographic (except Congressional Democrats)

Hero, that's a very flip position. Both extremes are right & wrong on this and there has to be a workable solution. Personally, I don't see why we can't at the very least imprison illegal aliens who commit felonies against US citizens, then offer an option to reduce their sentence by 50% if they agree to be implanted with a tracking chip when they are deported back to Mexico. At least this way we'd know immediately if they sneak in again, and they could be sent back again before they could rob, rape, or kill more innocent citizens. As for the rest, working family folks, I say they get "official temporary documentation"( criminal check, etc.) and if they're clean they can stay without having to live in fear that they'll be rounded up in the night and cuffed and thrown into a van. We complete the entire border fence system and back it with more border patrols and resources to handle the current out of control volume of this. Once the human pipeline is tightened the volume will decrease greatly, and then we can develop a sensible guest worker program, and/or even a guest-to- citizen path.

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Friday, October 19, 2007 6:32 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"5% unemployment does not yield enough workers to get the work done"

I'm sure you've heard all the caveats when it comes to the unemployment rates - the biggest caveat is that it's not about how many people are unemployed, it's about how many people are currently collecting unemployment benefits. And I'm sure you know that once people stop collecting unemployment benefits - even if it's just because the benefits ran out - they're no longer counted among the unemployed. Despite the fact that they are still not working.

And you probably know that, buried among the links at the BLS, is an article about long-term unemployed - those males who could work and are available to work, but are not working. That figure is closer to 12%. But for that number, as I indicated, only males are counted.

So, as I'm sure you're aware, while the BLS 'unemployment rate' is 'only' 5%, the real unemployment rate is at least double that.

I don't see a problem with a lack of US citizens as potential workers.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, October 19, 2007 12:31 PM

LEADB

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Both sides have valid positions. I don't even know how I feel about it all anymore.

The crime rate among illegal immigrants is 100%. Thats much higher then any other Demographic (except Congressional Democrats)

Hero, that's a very flip position. Both extremes are right & wrong on this and there has to be a workable solution. Personally, I don't see why we can't at the very least imprison illegal aliens who commit felonies against US citizens, then offer an option to reduce their sentence by 50% if they agree to be implanted with a tracking chip when they are deported back to Mexico. At least this way we'd know immediately if they sneak in again, and they could be sent back again before they could rob, rape, or kill more innocent citizens. As for the rest, working family folks, I say they get "official temporary documentation"( criminal check, etc.) and if they're clean they can stay without having to live in fear that they'll be rounded up in the night and cuffed and thrown into a van. We complete the entire border fence system and back it with more border patrols and resources to handle the current out of control volume of this. Once the human pipeline is tightened the volume will decrease greatly, and then we can develop a sensible guest worker program, and/or even a guest-to- citizen path.

It might be flip, but I almost made a similar observation as Hero: No illegal immigrant commits no crime. While I understand you are saying 'except that minor detail they came here illegally, they are following the law'. This is one of the reasons I feel we really need to get a guest worker program going. It will 'isolate' the folks who really aren't interested in being here to do otherwise legal activities. Right now, if an illegal sees a crime, he's likely to not report it because... well, he can be arrested for being an illegal. In any case... I think you and are are probably on the same, or at least similar, pages on our prefered direction. No idea what Hero would like to see.

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Friday, October 19, 2007 12:37 PM

LEADB

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"5% unemployment does not yield enough workers to get the work done"

I'm sure you've heard all the caveats when it comes to the unemployment rates - the biggest caveat is that it's not about how many people are unemployed, it's about how many people are currently collecting unemployment benefits. And I'm sure you know that once people stop collecting unemployment benefits - even if it's just because the benefits ran out - they're no longer counted among the unemployed. Despite the fact that they are still not working.

And you probably know that, buried among the links at the BLS, is an article about long-term unemployed - those males who could work and are available to work, but are not working. That figure is closer to 12%. But for that number, as I indicated, only males are counted.

So, as I'm sure you're aware, while the BLS 'unemployment rate' is 'only' 5%, the real unemployment rate is at least double that.

I don't see a problem with a lack of US citizens as potential workers.

Yes. And you are hitting on some of the points that cause me to not be entirely thrilled with the guest worker approach. This leads to my 2nd, somewhat less preferred approach, but if this went to the floor for a vote, I'd ask my congress folks to vote yes.
1) Any employer caught paying an illegal alien for any work done will be fined $1000 on the first occurrance, $10,000 on the second. Third will be a fine of $100,000 and 1 week in prison (no exceptions). Fines and time in jail increase at factor of 10.
2) An illegal caught by any means will be deported. No exceptions.
3) Anyone knowingly renting or boarding an illegal alien will be fined, etc (see item 1).

So Rue, is this more to your liking? I can get behind it. What I can't get behind is our continuing to bury our heads in the sand.

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Friday, October 19, 2007 1:44 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Overall, it's much harsher than I would propose. Workers comes here b/c there are employers who will knowingly hire them. Fix that problem and they'll stop coming. In fact, fix that problem and I suspect they'll go away.

1) Any employer caught paying an illegal alien for any work done will be fined $1000 on the first occurrence, $10,000 on the second. Third will be a fine of $100,000 and 1 week in prison (no exceptions). Fines and time in jail increase at factor of 10.

While I'm greatly in favor of item #1 in the general sense, I haven't worked out in my head how that could be done with a measure of reliability. (discussion below) So I can't unreservedly endorse the item in its potential details.

DISSCUSSION ON 1
A simple first step is to look through the employers records to see that everyone is on the books. You walk through the place, take names, and check the records. If they're not all accounted for (literally), then it's an easy case. Then the thing to do is to see if everyone has a SSN on the books. That's tougher. There's a thriving cottage industry for false documentation. What if an illegal shows up with a forged/ false set of ids ? Do you enforce the 'no illegals' rule on the employer ? So, what if it then seems reasonable to give employers a break in that instance ? How do you prevent collusion between employer/ illegal alien ? 'Here son, here's a SSN for you to give me. Of course I gave it to the last four people who came through the door, but anybody asks, I'm just a victim of fraud.' Maybe the answer for that is to make it a crime to use false ID, and make the person who does so subject to instant deportation. OTOH I can see where it could cause all sorts of hell for a victim of identity theft who, through no fault of their own, has had their legal identity muddled.

In my mind there are too many unresolved details though I think it's a sound approach.

2) An illegal caught by any means will be deported. No exceptions.

I have a problem with this. As the discussion went here in the Los Angeles area, that makes teachers, doctors, nurses, social workers, landlords (see below) etc de facto officers of the law, liable for demanding ID, verifying its accuracy and then detaining/ turning over people to the police. Unless you meant either police (local, county state, federal marshals) or INS are to be doing the catching.
But then there was a case where the INS raided a factory and immediately put illegals on a bus for transport to a holding center and deportation. The problem was that the kids were in school and came home to an empty house. While I don't think people should be able to avoid deportation with 'anchor children', this was particularly badly handled. And it does raise the general question of what to do with the US-born children. (Perhaps that should be up to the parent(s) - deported with you or fostered in the US ?)

3) Anyone knowingly renting or boarding an illegal alien will be fined, etc (see item 1).
'Knowingly' - there's the rub. There are the same caveats for employers, and for teachers etc.
--------------

All in all, I'm in favor of finding a way to make sure employers don't hire illegals. I just haven't gotten to the point of 'how'.

I'm 50/ 50 on deportation if the 'catching' is done by officers of the law. I think if the work isn't there many newly-arrived illegals will leave and to that extent solve the problem. But others - who've been in the US illegally 10, 15, 20 years or more will have acquired significant attachments. By that I mean attachments to extended families, friends, and organizations. There may be enough to keep them here even if the work isn't available (or easily available - they might get by with a little help from their friends.) And then there does need to be some kind of policy on 'anchor children'.

As to making landlords liable for illegals, I see it as a legal quagmire that's probably best not done.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, October 19, 2007 2:42 PM

LEADB

Rue,
Ok. Some ideas for you. Keep in mind there -is- a minimum wage. If the books show someone not getting that minimum wage, then it's pretty obvious that SSN was just a ruse.
We live in an electronic age; requiring employers to do a fairly trivial check should enable verification of the SSN. There will still be some things slipping through, but it should catch most.
Send in the fakes; they can plead entrapment if the only employee they are charged about is the deliberate fake sent in, but in all likely hood while the 'spies' are about, they can get enough details on folks who were hired without suggestion that are also illegal to make the case.
So, I see your point, we could just go after the employers. I could support that.

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Friday, October 19, 2007 2:56 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Raising minimum wage will not reduce illegal immigrants. It’s more likely to increase the illegal immigrant flow over the border. It’s the nature of undocumented workers that they are not subject to minimum wage laws, and Mexican immigrants are already willing to work for less than the minimum wage so raising it will only incentivize the employment of undocumented workers.

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Friday, October 19, 2007 2:58 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

LeadB

Interesting ideas.

One thing I've heard is that SSNs are sold by ID mills, and what happens is one SSN will have multiple names attached to it. So each person with that SSN is unaware of the other people with that SSN, and everyone who checks out if that SSN matches the name gets - yep - that's that person's SSN all right.

The ONE place where it comes all together - the SSA - has (as I've been lead to believe) a list of each SSN and all the names attached to it. But it's not something they pursue. Which leaves many people with fake SSNs intact, and the one valid SSN holder with their SS benefits in question.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, October 19, 2007 3:00 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Finn

And that's why enforcement has to come at the employment end. And also, penalites have to be high enough to not write them off as the cost of doing business.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, October 19, 2007 3:30 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I employ household help, and I've had my share of illegals trying to get a job and people wanting to be paid under the table.

First of all, if you insist on a Social Security card that weeds out a lot of people right there. Telling people that you will be reprotng their wages drops out about 10%. Then, the SSA has this neat feature on their website that lets you check a person's SSN against their name. If there's a mismatch it pops up right away. I've dropped out a couple of people there.

So while it's not foolproof it's easy to weed out the folks who haven't gotten good (or any) fake documents.

Social Security can help at their end too. They COULD comb their records for duplicate SSNs separated by an unrealistic number of miles, or look for active accounts of people who are already dead, and do their own investigation. This would weed out the folks who bothered to get fake (but matching) SSNs and names. But SSA won't do that because they have duplicate people paying into the system but only one person (the REAL Jane Doe) who will draw on that $$ for retirement, so it helps their books.

All on all, it's really not impossible to weed out illegals from employment.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, October 19, 2007 3:41 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

OK. So it's reasonable and expectable to insist that employers have employees with SSNs that match their names. That would put a pretty big dent in the problem right there. Perhaps a 90% + dent ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, October 19, 2007 4:06 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

yep.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, October 19, 2007 4:08 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"So it's reasonable and expectable to insist that employers have employees with SSNs that match their names. That would put a pretty big dent in the problem right there. Perhaps a 90% + dent ?"

"Yep."

Simple, straightforward and effective.

So. Why. Isn't. It. Done.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 3:51 AM

LEADB

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Raising minimum wage will not reduce illegal immigrants. It’s more likely to increase the illegal immigrant flow over the border. It’s the nature of undocumented workers that they are not subject to minimum wage laws, and Mexican immigrants are already willing to work for less than the minimum wage so raising it will only incentivize the employment of undocumented workers.

Ok, we've got two seriously 'distinct' items being discussed, and I think Finn is referring to my earlier 'preferred' position of the guest card approach.

I see your point... mostly. You are right the guest card worker program which enforces a minimum wage for guest workers could make the 'draw' for workers higher. This also requires strong enforcement: The number of cards issued needs to be controlled to a degree; as long as the guest worker program permits lower wages for guest workers than citizens, there will be a higher demand. Part of the 'trick' of the program is you need to have a 'defined point of entry' created and staffed; and you wold restrict -new entrants- at the time the program went into effect. This might be a show stopper. There's going to be a 'reality' of 6 to 12 months were its going to be hard to tell if someone has recently 'snuck in' or had been here a while, and is now just trying to 'go legal'. Gads... at best it is going to be a hairy transition.

I guess the program would have to be committed to eventually raise the guest card worker wage to increase to the point where we have full employment without excessive wage inflation... sadly that then gets into a very politically loaded judgment. Ultimately, the only way to get to a 'solid footing' is to -first- get everyone legal, then adjust the details to help market forces balance the rest. One thing I -don't- like about guest card/amnesty is such a program will likely require at least one large book of laws, guidelines, regulations, etc.

The more I think about worker card program, the less I like it... but I honestly think we are going to find there -will- be a labor shortage if we do not make -some- provision for at least -some- workers from out of country to fill lower paying jobs... but then, dang it, how to you keep some and not others. I suppose there is the 'return and re-enter' approach/requirement, then only issue work cards to those entering through 'proper' channels.

No simple and easy solution here, there will be pain no matter which way we go; of course, we also got 'pain now'; and I think we -must- move to something that will ultimately resolve the issue.

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 3:53 AM

LEADB

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"So it's reasonable and expectable to insist that employers have employees with SSNs that match their names. That would put a pretty big dent in the problem right there. Perhaps a 90% + dent ?"

"Yep."

Simple, straightforward and effective.

So. Why. Isn't. It. Done.

Simple: no political will. There's a ton of folks who are happy to pay folks to work cheap and off the books. They have a political voice too. Guess we need to get 'louder.'

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Tuesday, October 23, 2007 6:04 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

There are too many problems in the world to not fix the easy ones.

I was just hoping to spark a quiet little aha !. Here's the problem, here's the (very easy common sense) solution, so why not just ----

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:28 PM

LEADB

... just get a little louder? Sounds like a good idea to me.

Folks, write your congress folks, friends, relatives, etc....

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