Why isn't Hillary in jail ? by AURaptor

I saw this video before and didn't understand it. Explain to me exactly what the crime was? I'm not saying it isn't implicit in the video but I missed it.
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............

obviously I fell asleep the first time I was watching it...

interesting piece.

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Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 PM

on the other hand the case seems pretty weak. Why don't they play all that shit on the tape that they say is on it? OH yeah, we're to take their word for it.

I don't know man...

I'm no fan of Clinton, she's part of the machine and all, but I don't think this video is idictable evidence of anything.

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:28 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:

on the other hand the case seems pretty weak. Why don't they play all that shit on the tape that they say is on it? OH yeah, we're to take their word for it.

I don't know man...

I'm no fan of Clinton, she's part of the machine and all, but I don't think this video is idictable evidence of anything.

If it's such a weak case, then why did Hillary disavow any knowledge of having anything to do w/ the event ? Doesn't that ring any alarm bells for ya?

The rest of the story will come out in an hour long documentary. This clip was just a small portion of what's to come. Keep an eye out for it. Some of the Hollywood Left aren't too pleased w/ Hillary. If she could publically toss Peter Paul aside so casaully and then cozy up to him as if nothing's wrong, what so ever, what else is she willing to do ?

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:45 AM

sounds like politics as usual to me...

nothing illegal proven in the video, just accusations.

You want to charge her with being a shrewd triangulating politician who knows when to distance herself from something that stinks, but still tries not to burn any bridges in the process, well I never said she was the candidate of integrity or straight-shooting,

of course, those candidates never win.

As to whether or not the Clintons pulled the wool over Peter Paul's eyes and screwed him in this alleged deal, I only got heresay on the video, which will only convince me if we get some hard corroborated proof of the allegations. But hey, I'm not totally dismissing them out of hand. I'm not a Bush bot.

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:48 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

She lied and she undervalued the cost of the event. And not by a little bit either. I doubt Peter Paul would waste his time pursuing any of this if he didn't know what was going on was really fishy.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:03 AM

what? well he could have been put up to it. I could say something as trusting about Clinton. "I doubt she would involve herself in something so potentially damaging to her and her husband's political careers, so I'll take her word for it."

Far be it for me to call Paul a liar. I don't know that he is or even suspect that he is. But I'm not sure why at this moment, I'm supposed to trust him over the Clintons, or them over him for that matter.

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:10 AM

Thunderthighs is as smarmy & dirty as they come. i cannot wait until the real campaign starts next August....she will be TOTALLY exposed & stripped bare for the wanton criminal she is. She has more skeletons in her closet than Jeffrey Dahmer had. By the way, did she & BJ Bill ever return ALL the shit they stole from the White House?

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:12 AM

That's right, bill got a BJ...the sick bastard....

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 2:38 PM

Yeah, that is right. Between the Bj's and the rapes and the attempted rapes and the covering up of all the rapes & attempted rapes...in between ALL HIS IMMORAL LIBERTINE INDULGENCES the World Trade Center, 2 American Embassies, a US Naval Destroyer, and a dozen etcs. were blown the fuck up by Al Qaida & he did NOTHING except pass it on to Bush. What a guy! What a piece of shit! What a fucking TRAITOR!

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 3:01 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"the World Trade Center ... "

Didn't he authorize an extraordinary rendition, and didn't his administration catch the guys, have them tried in a court of law, and put in jail ? And weren't his anti-terror activities partially addressed in another thread?
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=31124 Beginning in 1995 ... about 70 renditions were carried out before Sept. 11, 2001, most of them during the Clinton years.

In all, ten militant Islamist conspirators – including Ramzi Yousef – were convicted for their part in the bombing and were given prison sentences of a maximum of 240 years each.

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And then there's the famous Bush success in protecting the US from 9/11 - NYC, the Pentagon, and Pennsylvania, getting bin Laden "I don't think about him much anymore" and disrupting his network "U.S. intelligence - al-Qaida has rebuilt its operating capability to a level not seen since just before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks."

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 3:03 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

And what were the "dozen etcs" ??

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 4:10 PM

FREMDFIRMA

You know, I been dying to say it, and refrained in case actual discussion happened here...

Q: "Why isn't Hillary in jail ?"
A: Cause they don't want her either!

(Cue rimshot)

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 4:24 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Damn ! I missed that one ... woulda coulda shoulda ....

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 5:23 PM

And I've been avoiding the obvious answer of
'Friends in high places.'

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 5:41 PM

JARHEAD

Hey guys before you get too into tearing each-other to pieces over a load of human waste that doesn't deserve you loyalty, please stop for a second and think about whether you anger is really being directed in the right place.

Ask yourself, just who is it that has presided over us the last few decades and how many scandals that never go anywhere have their been? And which is it that has been implicated in most of them?

Answer: The Republicrats and the Demicans.

They both are corrupt to the core, and while most of America keeps themselves entertained with whatever is on TV, the few of us try to keep up with what's going on have been pitted against eachother specifically to avoid us channeling our collective anger towards THEM.

Why isn't Hillary in jail ? Easy, she knows where enough bones are buried. Why isn't Ted Stevens in jail? He's paid off the right people. And William "First Bank of the Icebox" Jefferson, and Nixon, and so on. Do yourselves a favor next time you vote. Come this November find a name that doesn't say "incumbent", and make your mark accordingly. Don't worry about whether they can win, don't worry about their party affiliation, just vote against whoever it is that currently has whatever office is up for grabs. Or to quote better men than I:

Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel.
-Patrick Henry, speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1788

In selecting men for office, let principle be your guide. Regard not the particular sect or denomination of the candidate — look to his character....
-Noah Webster, Letters to a Young Gentleman Commencing His Education, 1789

I’m never serious. Serious means something bad is about to happen.

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

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Thursday, October 25, 2007 1:45 AM

Even better; well before the election, find out who those people are going to be and get some signs out in front of your house advocating them. Start a write-in campaign for your district's house seat or your state's senate seat.

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Thursday, October 25, 2007 3:41 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"the World Trade Center ... "

Didn't he authorize an extraordinary rendition, and didn't his administration catch the guys, have them tried in a court of law, and put in jail ? And weren't his anti-terror activities partially addressed in another thread?
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=31124 Beginning in 1995 ... about 70 renditions were carried out before Sept. 11, 2001, most of them during the Clinton years.

In all, ten militant Islamist conspirators – including Ramzi Yousef – were convicted for their part in the bombing and were given prison sentences of a maximum of 240 years each.

Bush rendition BAD, Clinton rendition GOOD.

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Thursday, October 25, 2007 4:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Bush rendition BAD, Clinton rendition GOOD.

Dummyrats make up the rules as they go along to suit whatever MR. SOROS & HIS MONEY TELL THEM TO. Political opportunists of the lowest order. Makes my skin crawl....yech!

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Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:45 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

2. People who are "rendered" inevitably end up in a foreign slammer -- or worse.

Actually, that's not a foregone conclusion. Alvarez was brought to the United States. So was Mir Aimal Kansi, who killed two CIA employees in their cars outside the agency's Langley headquarters in 1993, and Ramzi Yousef, the architect of the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center (ie during Clinton's terms). Both were apprehended in Pakistan, whose leaders decided that the nation would rather not have those two -- folk heroes to some -- sitting in jail, awaiting extradition. Pakistan's leaders feared that cooperating with the United States would be dangerously unpopular, so they wanted the suspects out of the country quickly. For many pro-U.S. Muslim leaders, that concern has only deepened as anti-Americanism has soared.

By my count, most renditions since 1995 have involved moving individuals from one foreign country to another -- not grabbing someone in Washington and carting them off to North Africa, as happens to Witherspoon's onscreen husband. Such operations typically occur in secret because, again, Muslim leaders (especially in the Arab world) want to shield their cooperation with Washington from their anti-American publics. The CIA has acted as a go-between, arranging the transfers and providing transportation. Usually those being rendered are not brought to the United States because, while the U.S. government may have an abundance of intelligence showing their malfeasance, it doesn't have enough courtroom evidence. There's a big difference between the two.

One other safeguard: During the Clinton years, the United States required the country that received a rendered person to have some kind of legal process against the suspect -- an arrest warrant or indictment, for example. It's not clear whether that is still the case. Perhaps Michael Mukasey, President Bush's attorney general nominee, can check.

3. Step one of a rendition involves kidnapping the suspect.

The individual may feel as though he's being kidnapped, but that's not usually what's going on. Most of the time, the person is detained by the authorities of the country he is in. They will then hand him off to the CIA, who will fly him to his destination.

In rare cases when the country of residence is a hostile one, an "extraordinary rendition" can be carried out: a covert effort to abduct the suspect and spirit him out of the country. The CIA put considerable time into efforts to capture Osama bin Laden this way from Taliban-ruled Afghanistan in the late 1990s. Had it worked, it would have been an extraordinary rendition -- and Americans would have cheered.

4. Rendition is just a euphemism for outsourcing torture.

Well, not historically. The guidelines for Clinton-era renditions required that subjects could be sent only to countries where they were not likely to be tortured -- countries that gave assurances to that effect and whose compliance was monitored by the State Department and the intelligence community. It's impossible to be certain that those standards were upheld every time, but serious efforts were made to see that they were. At a minimum, countries with indisputably lousy human rights records (say, Syria) were off-limits. Another key difference: Renditions before Bush were carried out to disrupt terrorist activity, not to gather intelligence or interrogate individuals.

Now, though, the Bush team seems to have dramatically eroded such safeguards. The administration has apparently sent someone to Syria, and Khaled el-Masri, a German citizen, was evidently boosted in Macedonia and interrogated in Afghanistan in a manner that sure sounds like torture. In light of this and other revelations, the criticism that the administration has "defined down" torture looks pretty persuasive. It's probably a good bet that Congress or the next administration will reform the program, or abolish it outright.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/19/AR2007
101900835_pf.html

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You're funny people.

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Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:41 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Why isn't Bush in jail ?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/25/washington/25rice.html?ref=americas

WASHINGTON, Oct. 24 (Reuters) — Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice admitted Wednesday that the United States had mishandled the case of a Canadian who was deported to Syria and who has said he was tortured there, but she stopped short of an apology.

Maher Arar, (who) was arrested during a stopover in New York in 2002 and deported to Syria, where he has said he was tortured and imprisoned for a year.

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You know, the Clintons have been accused (mostly falsely, I might add) of many things. But torture wasn't one of them. You Bushites are funny people.

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Thursday, October 25, 2007 9:19 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by jarhead:

Do yourselves a favor next time you vote. Come this November find a name that doesn't say "incumbent", and make your mark accordingly. Don't worry about whether they can win, don't worry about their party affiliation, just vote against whoever it is that currently has whatever office is up for grabs.

Great campaign slogan: " Throw the rascals out!
( Throw NEW rascals in.)"

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Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:06 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Why isn't Bush in jail ?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/25/washington/25rice.html?ref=americas

WASHINGTON, Oct. 24 (Reuters) — Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice admitted Wednesday that the United States had mishandled the case of a Canadian who was deported to Syria and who has said he was tortured there, but she stopped short of an apology.

Maher Arar, (who) was arrested during a stopover in New York in 2002 and deported to Syria, where he has said he was tortured and imprisoned for a year.

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You know, the Clintons have been accused (mostly falsely, I might add) of many things. But torture wasn't one of them. You Bushites are funny people.

Bush never was acused of torture, so your piont is moot. Nice try though.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, October 25, 2007 4:54 PM

JARHEAD

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
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You know, the Clintons have been accused (mostly falsely, I might add) of many things. But torture wasn't one of them. You Bushites are funny people.

I really can't grasp the absolute and total hatred of George W. Bush. When everything is tallied up and the historians are trying to sum up his presidency in a hundred years, the exact wording will be something like "Meh," coupled with a shrug of the shoulders. The man has hardly done anything - good or bad. He's a nothing, just like his father minus the ability to string together a complete sentence. And just like every man to have his job since at least FDR, he's been pushing just a little farther to see how much power we'd let him take. Bush Jr. is just the latest in a long line of corrupt corporate servants slowly building America into a place where what you don't pay in taxes gets sucked up by basic living expenses, and all of that money goes to a hundred different subsidiaries of one parent multi-national mega-corp.

Billy Jeff Clin-tong? You mean you think that there's something the southern politician is accused of that he didn't do? Are you deficient?

Bush I? First person of any stature to use the phrase "New World Order". If that doesn't scare you I know you're deficient. In addition he's connected up the ass to the Saudi royal family, and he's a former CIA head, all of which leads me to conclude that he's one of the most corrupt SOB's to ever hold the office - and we'll never find out about any of it.

Regean? Actor in the role of a lifetime. His arms race broke the back of the Soviet Union - and began America down a road of such massive debt that it would not surprise me to learn that we actually cannot make even the minimum payments. But hey no worries, After all, that land seized for Federal parks/wetlands/etc. during last few decades? Most of which has minerals worth mining? I'm sure that was for ecological reasons and not to use the mining rights as collateral for debts that we won't be able to pay. And if that wasn't bad enough, the policies that sent corporate America's earnings through the roof during the '80s have lead to the globalism which is getting ready to bankrupt us due to the loss of the American manufacturing sector. Cheers.

Carter? Another "Meh."

And so on. So yeah, you hate GW all you want, but if I were you I'd critically examine my own beliefs to see if I was missing the forest for the trees.

I’m never serious. Serious means something bad is about to happen.

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

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Friday, October 26, 2007 1:30 AM

FREMDFIRMA

You know, a lot of you should just start prefacing every single post of any kind with..

"But Clinton...."

It would save a lotta time and typing.

That's not to say Clinton ain't a scumbag, that he was in spades, Mena, NAFTA and the long toll of suspicious and convenient deaths of associated folks who knew too much.

I hated him and his whole little "Smiling Liars" cabal from the get-go, and they damned well *should* have impeached him for NAFTA, not a freakin blowjob - about the only smart thing I recall him doing was getting our troops the fekk out of Africa before the situation tanked, which is was gonna do with or without our intervention, and that wasn't for altruism, it was simply unprofitable as they had no resources worth hijacking.

Conversely, the Bush family history of sleaze goes back a long way, and while Bush I was a total creep, he was a relatively intelligent, competent creep... the Shrub is just a pale shadow thereof, incompetent, stupid and less subtle than a ton of bricks.

It's not so much Shrub proper, but being the frontman of course he's gonna take most of the hate, yet to be honest he's such a maroon that I doubt he really has any awareness of anything beyond his little circle of handlers and sycophants....

What folks are hating on, is the Neo-Conservative Straussian PNAC and Clean Break Cabal, which spans both parties in fact, because the roots of it were born in the office of Henry "Scoop" Jackson, and transcend through both parties to the lunacy we have today.

Other than Ron Paul, who like me is "mad as a hatter" (in a good, freedom loving way!) all of these bastards are essentially the same, and it's just more bread and circuses at the ballot box cause when you're pulling that lever...

The only real choice you are making is KY or Vaseline before they bend you over the table and have at you.

What I find almost as offensive, also, is that they're not even slick or subtle about it anymore, they have such a lock on the system that they can be pretty obvious in not giving a shit what we the people, technically their bosses, think - and you got a buncha frogs hoppin around with scorched butts bitchin.

And playin the world conquest game is ill enough, but they're so BAD at it, the incompetence is just painful to watch - if we're gonna do it, DO it, send in some diplomatic shysters and rook em into agreements that give us what we want and leave them happy to give it to us....

Be cheaper and more effective than offending them at every single chance with cretins like Bolton, and then engaging military force.

It's not that they're evil that rooks me so much as that they're incompetent and STUPID, and that is unforgiveable in politics.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, October 26, 2007 4:38 AM

But Clinton.........
I wouldn't worry so much about things. Actually for you and your fellow Anarchists you might not have very long to wait to see your dream come true, assuming the Dems will be totally running the country in January 2009.

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Friday, October 26, 2007 6:52 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Jarhead

You make many excellent points, so I'd like to discuss them in detail.

"I really can't grasp the absolute and total hatred of George W. Bush."
Dubya is easy to focus on. He's a sociopath and mentally deficient, and as a person, completely despicable. But what I hate is what he stands for and the political machine that got him into power and runs him. Dubya (and the machine) are focused on making people SO defensive they won't look above their jobs, their paychecks, and their little lives b/c it's all too big, too bad, and too out of their control - and their own lives are too precarious.
Is that what a democracy is suppose to be about ? People too cowed and bamboozled to understand they have a CHOICE in how they run their own society ?

"When everything is tallied up and the historians are trying to sum up his presidency in a hundred years, the exact wording will be something like "Meh," coupled with a shrug of the shoulders. The man has hardly done anything - good or bad."
I believe there are real problems we must address now or we may not be here as a country, a species or a planet in 100 years. OK, that's hyperbole. But in 100 years people may be looking back and wondering - when we had the chance to fix real problems and didn't - and then it got to be too late - what were we thinking ?

"Bush Jr. is just the latest in a long line of corrupt corporate servants slowly building America into a place where what you don't pay in taxes gets sucked up by basic living expenses, and all of that money goes to a hundred different subsidiaries of one parent multi-national mega-corp."
Yes and - it seems no matter how many time one points that out to the Bush lovers they turn a blind eye.

"Billy Jeff Clin-tong? You mean you think that there's something the southern politician is accused of that he didn't do? Are you deficient?"
I don't think he had Vince Foster 'suicided'. Don't think he conspired on Whitewater, travel-gate or the myriad other items that $40M USD was spent trying to get him on. After all was said and done, the only thing they could find on him was lying about a blow job.
BTW, the WORST things I can think of that he did were perfectly legal. NAFTA. DMCC.

"Bush I? First person of any stature to use the phrase "New World Order".
Yeah, it did scare me, AS IT DOES NOW. And it's not that Dubya says it, but that the people running him (mostly daddy's people) are doing it.

"Reagan? Actor in the role of a lifetime."
And I agree with all you said about Reagan. There may be an archived thread "Ronald Reagan - Rot". Go check it out.

"Carter? Another "Meh."
And so on. So yeah, you hate GW all you want, but if I were you I'd critically examine my own beliefs to see if I was missing the forest for the trees."

As I said above, Bush is the face on the machine. And what scares me are all the people - here - who love him, support him, and defend EVERYTHING he and his administration do. I keep hoping, maybe someday if it's pointed out enough, even they will come to realize that Bush is there to stampede them, lie to them, take from them. And keep from them 'the audacity of hope'. (BTW I know a white supremacist Hispanic. He's stupid enough to think that if he aligns himself with them, they will align themselves with him. He thinks he can join them. What a tool. He's what the Bush lovers remind me of. They think that if they support Bush, somehow they'll be in that crowd. Yeah. Like they're going to Dubai to retire on tax money with the support of their wealthy connections.)

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, October 26, 2007 7:33 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Actually, 100 years from now when people look back at the Bush Presidency they'll realize that it was the Cheney Presidency. Bush was the stupid face fronting for a crazy dude.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, October 26, 2007 9:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
He's what the Bush lovers remind me of. They think that if they support Bush, somehow they'll be in that crowd.

Actually I believe in the President and most of his policies. I could care less about being in any crowd. Like most real Americans, I make my own way, sometimes there's a crowd there and sometimes its nice to be all alone.

I think the ugliness of the Bush-haters goes all the way back to the 2000 election. Some people could not accept the outcome. If Gore had won there'd be Gore-haters.

The reason the Bush-haters are so desperate now is because of their anger and bitterness over the 2000 and 2004 elections. The way they see it the first election was stolen, so they are mad, but the second election was lost and for that they blame the American people. Thus they are more and more willing to throw aside simple decorum and common curtosy because they think the people, knowing the truth, failed to make things right. Add in a little liberal extremism, anarchy, a liberal press bias, the internet, and a war and you get what we have today.

I note for the record, no network (other then FOX) broadcast that last week there were NO, zero, nada, absolutely zilch deaths of American servicement in Iraq. They have further failed to report the dramatic fall in American, Iraqi military, and civilian casualties and the dramatic decrease in violence, bombings, and insurgency actions since the end of June when the final surge units arrived in theater.

H

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Friday, October 26, 2007 9:08 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Actually I believe in the President and most of his policies."

My point exactly. As does the Hispanic white supremacist believe in their agenda.

Quite laughably.

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Friday, October 26, 2007 9:09 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Actually I believe in the President

HEY! I believe in Santa Claus!

When people say they "believe" in something, all I can think of is that they have a religion, and all that goes along with religious beliefs. It's very hard to penetrate and change someone's religion because belief systems aren't about evidence, they're about... belief. Trust. Faith. Emotions rather than thought.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, October 26, 2007 10:30 AM

heh,

Are you saying Hero, that because we didn't lose a soldier in Iraq for a full week, that should be lauded as some sort of success of our policy, and how things are working over there? What exactly would be the point of covering that tidbit of information? Maybe for a collective sense of respit and a temporary sigh of relief, but other than being thankful that no more servicemen died in that period, I'm not sure what value that ditbit of information has...

maybe you can enlighten me as to what that means? You can not tell me that that is on par with the networks covering soldier deaths when they happen. When a soldier dies, that is news in my opinion, and it represents a cumulative consequence of this war. When we go a measly week without a soldier dying, it suggests what?

A lucky week, amidst very unlucky weeks. I hope we have more of them. I hope we reduce the deaths of our soldiers while they still have to be over there. If we can get a long term trend of reduced soldier deaths in Iraq over a period of a couple months, then it might be worth reporting. Until then, its just for the sake of rhetoric.

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Friday, October 26, 2007 12:47 PM

I believe what Hero is trying to say is it is possible that there is a 'turning tide', that perhaps it is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Not that I necessarily agree, but it does seem they are trying something new in Iraq, which is depending more on the tribal leaders. Personally, I'm very concerned this is a trade for short term 'peace' for a long term problem; the long term risk being that the tribal leaders won't ever really be interested in empowering the central government. However, the risk could pay off; if there is enough peace, the center may be able to establish something of value to the Iraqi people allowing a stable, and hopefully democratic, government to 'come out'.

In any case, I do try to see the bright side. I just hope there is one here.

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Friday, October 26, 2007 1:49 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

The bright side is that they'll find a way to declare 'victory' and leave right before the election. Reality be damned. (As it has been for a few years.)

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, October 26, 2007 4:09 PM

Rue,
I'd be delighted if they found an excuse to pull out of Iraq before the election. My expectation is we will still have over 100,000 on Jan 1, 2009 in Iraq.

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Friday, October 26, 2007 4:20 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Those are mere technicalities, but good enough to make an arrest without a warrant, either by police or citizen. But there are plenty of other felonies to arrest her for, including mass murder and terrorist bombings - Waco, WTC 93, OKC, Iraq, Arkancides. And isn't homosexuality still a crime, like it is for all soldiers?

All it takes is any person to make the arrest, or any person to file Affidavit of Probable Cause for Criminal Complaint (not filed with police, but filed with a judge to order an arrest warrant, or grand jury foreman). Here's how I file criminal charges against crooked politicians, crooked cops and military commanders who dare follow illegal orders:
www.piratenews.org/newslinks.html

This is very easy to do, which is why this week, our fascist Congress demanded arrest and summary execution of all internet users as homegrown terrorists, guilty of Orwellian Thoughtcrime:
www.infowars.com/articles/ps/thought_crime_bill_could_ensnare_peaceful
_activists.htm

Quote:
Abbie Bernstein: Do you believe a government can be shamed into or out of what it's doing by the actions of individuals?

Joss Whedon: The idea was to say that people can make a difference, they can show the wrongs that are being done. They can speak out against them and make people aware of them. They can even create giant scandals. Sometimes they can topple governments. The point is that the truth is always more important than the power structure, and whether you make a dent or not, the fact that you succeeded in trying is a victory.
-Serenity - The Official Visual Companion, page 35

www.ronpaul2008.com

SIR RUPERT DINES WITH HILLARY EVERY WEEK!!!
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Friday, October 26, 2007 4:46 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

YO ! Look it up !

Time to call your senators and tell them this bill stinks !!!!

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h110-1955

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, October 26, 2007 5:00 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

LeadB

It's not the getting out that bothers me, it's the disinformation.

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Friday, October 26, 2007 5:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
I'm not sure what value that ditbit of information has...

Ah, I see. The information is useful for a number of reasons. One, there is almost constant coverage of the deaths in Iraq. Not the death of individual soldiers, which is generally reserved for local news, but the raw statistics. 2 died here, three died there...countdown to 1,000, the 1,500, then 2,000. Failing to then report the lack of casualties for a measurable period of time is ignoring the other side of the story presented by highlighting the run up casualties during other weeks. In order to be fair, both sides must be presented...particularly during a long, evolving story like Iraq.

Quote:

When a soldier dies, that is news in my opinion, and it represents a cumulative consequence of this war. When we go a measly week without a soldier dying, it suggests what?

It could, as you suggest mean a lucky week and could be used to place the mounting casualties into perspective. Unfortunately such a conclusion is not supported by the facts in this case.

So what does it suggest. Months ago the President decided to change strategy. Since the strategy went fully online at the end of June violence in Iraq has dramatically dropped. Some reports place the overall reduction in violence at over 80%. American casulaties have steadily dropped and posted a week without deaths in a month with the lowest rates following series of months with dramatically lower rates. In simple terms its a trend. A positive trend.

A positive trend culiminating in extremely good news (no deaths last week) following a substantive change in strategy is news, especially given all the negative news Iraq has received. I recall news stories declaring failure, before the new strategy started, news stories claiming a civil war was going on, news about deaths, news about torture, and little positive news except that brought back by our returning troops.

Quote:

If we can get a long term trend of reduced soldier deaths in Iraq over a period of a couple months, then it might be worth reporting. Until then, its just for the sake of rhetoric.

American casualty rates have dropped 73% since June. Only FOX News is reporting it on TV...although I saw it on Drudge too.

During the last week no network, other then FOX told the story of the Medal of Honor Bush awarded to a Seal who died in Afganistan. It was some story. "...for conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life" this Seal, already wounded, braved enemy fire to make a radio call and save his team which was under fire by a large Taliban force.

The media is always glad to talk about how many have died. I think how they died and more importantly how they lived can be news too.

That Seal believed in his mission and his men and he showed us true courage. I doubt his last words were "don't tase me bro" yet we all heard that battle cry and not that of the fallen soldier. That aint right.

H

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Friday, October 26, 2007 5:33 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

I think the ugliness of the Bush-haters goes all the way back to the 2000 election. Some people could not accept the outcome. If Gore had won there'd be Gore-haters.

The reason the Bush-haters are so desperate now is because of their anger and bitterness over the 2000 and 2004 elections. The way they see it the first election was stolen, so they are mad, but the second election was lost and for that they blame the American people. Thus they are more and more willing to throw aside simple decorum and common curtosy because they think the people, knowing the truth, failed to make things right. Add in a little liberal extremism, anarchy, a liberal press bias, the internet, and a war and you get what we have today.

I note for the record, no network (other then FOX) broadcast that last week there were NO, zero, nada, absolutely zilch deaths of American servicement in Iraq. They have further failed to report the dramatic fall in American, Iraqi military, and civilian casualties and the dramatic decrease in violence, bombings, and insurgency actions since the end of June when the final surge units arrived in theater.

H

Bush's cousin Gore took a dive in 2000. Heck, I literally fight traffic tickets harder than Gore fought for the White House. All the Supreme Whores did was remand the case, so Gore didn't lose, he quit. Heck, he even conceded defeat before the votes were counted (in secret by the Voter News Service Corporation). Bush's cousin Kerry was paid a $50-million bribe to take a dive, in "leftover campaign contributions", and the Green Pary had to pay for Kerry's recounts in Ohio, where the election commissioners were sent to prison.

As for Fox's allegation that no soldiers died in Iraq, that don't count off the battlefield, don't count 100,000 illegal alien soldiers in Iraq, don't count CIA mercs, don't count 10,000 dead Iraqis per WEEK, don't count 100,000 dead US Gulf War soldiers so far, don't count 700,000 disabled US Gulf War soldiers so far. Hell, Fox cant even add to 17, which is haw many years the Iraq War has raged ever day, genociding 2.6-million Iraqis, so far.

Hanoi Hannity: "Outsourcing your job is good for me."
"US ports owned by Commie China is good for me."
"Iraq War is good for me and Commie China."
"Sir Rupert dines with Hillary every week."
"Ron Paul does not exist in my 'Verse."

"As far as Chinese goes, I resented it."
-Adam Tudyk, The Making of Firefly

FOX, MYSPACE & FIREFLY OWNED BY COMMUNIST CHINA!
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Friday, October 26, 2007 5:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
The bright side is that they'll find a way to declare 'victory' and leave right before the election. Reality be damned.

The Democrats can't afford victory. They're invested in defeat. That's why the brought up this Turkey business and why the Turkish/Kurd border dispute, which has been going on for decades, is suddenly the news from Iraq.

Suddenly we're winning and now the news isn't the violence, its Democrats cutting our supply lines through Turkey and burning our diplomatic bridges that we need to keep the Kurd situation in check.

They simply can't afford American victory before next year's election. They've played a dangerous game courting the Bush-haters and radical left. Look how the left is going after their own now.

I think the Democratic Party is ready to explode. They can't sustain the competing special intersts pulling them in seperate directions. The leadership is becoming more and more caught between the vocal radicals and the normal everyday people who make up their real voting base. Those people, many of whom have moderate and in some cases conservative values.

Being a student of political history I think the Democrats are ripe for something new. Perhaps a new party, as happened a couple other times in history (the Democratic-Republicans...the Whigs, the Republicans) or a severing of ties with the radicals (which also has precedent on both sides). I think a moderate Democratic Party divorced of its radicals could easily emerge as a majority. I'd like to see it. I could even be one given half a chance (if it wasn't for the radicals and Ronald Reagan, I'd be a Democrat right now).

I remember a time when you could be a Pro Life Democrat...I loved Bob Casey, great governor, but not allowed to speak in 1992 when the Democrats opted for their smaller tent. What has happened to the Democrat Party of my...Dad's youth?

H

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Friday, October 26, 2007 5:51 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I suggest everyone who's interested in US casualties in Iraq OVER THE LONG TERM look here:

http://icasualties.org/oif/US_chart.aspx

Over the long term you'll see an interesting but unfortunate trend. The averages are higher the longer the US stays.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, October 26, 2007 5:52 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
YO ! Look it up !

Time to call your senators and tell them this bill stinks !!!!

Yeah, it stinks. Fuck this shit.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, October 26, 2007 5:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
As for Fox's allegation that no soldiers died in Iraq, that don't count off the battlefield, don't count 100,000 illegal alien soldiers in Iraq, don't count CIA mercs, don't count 10,000 dead Iraqis per WEEK, don't count 100,000 dead US Gulf War soldiers so far, don't count 700,000 disabled US Gulf War soldiers so far. Hell, Fox cant even add to 17, which is haw many years the Iraq War has raged ever day, genociding 2.6-million Iraqis, so far.

Nope, none of those count. Although I did see something about a mysterious "illegal alien" helicopter, supposedly shot down in Iraq, that destroyed a US base in Qatar. When it comes to reports about Iraq I suspect there is more then meets the eye...

H

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Friday, October 26, 2007 5:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Over the long term you'll see an interesting but unfortunate trend. The averages are higher the longer the US stays.

Like I said...the rates are down over 70% since June. Thanks for the support. Clearly the new strategy is working so far.

I'd suggest that we give it till next spring and then look again.

H

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Friday, October 26, 2007 6:08 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Clearly the new strategy is working so far. I'd suggest that we give it till next spring and then look again."

Uh, dude, the surge started in February.
That was almost 3/4 of a year ago. ""The security operation was launched Feb. 14".

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Friday, October 26, 2007 6:10 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

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Friday, October 26, 2007 6:18 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
As for Fox's allegation that no soldiers died in Iraq, that don't count off the battlefield, don't count 100,000 illegal alien soldiers in Iraq, don't count CIA mercs, don't count 10,000 dead Iraqis per WEEK, don't count 100,000 dead US Gulf War soldiers so far, don't count 700,000 disabled US Gulf War soldiers so far. Hell, Fox cant even add to 17, which is haw many years the Iraq War has raged ever day, genociding 2.6-million Iraqis, so far.

Nope, none of those count. Although I did see something about a mysterious "illegal alien" helicopter, supposedly shot down in Iraq, that destroyed a US base in Qatar. When it comes to reports about Iraq I suspect there is more then meets the eye...

H

Tell it to these famlies.

If you know how to count above 1,000, tell it to these families.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8403827045055769937&hl=en
jcnot4me.com/images/Bush_Image-Via-Dead-Soldiers.jpg

These too.

Repeat 2.7-million times.

FOX, MYSPACE & FIREFLY OWNED BY COMMUNIST CHINA!
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Does that seem right to you?
Firefly Music Video: Tangerine dream - Confrontation, Thief soundtrack
www.megavideo.com/?v=JVT35GR8
www.scifi.com/onair/

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Friday, October 26, 2007 7:13 PM

SORCHA425

My thought is: Rumsfeld is gone because the plans in the war were a little screwy, the new plans seem to be doing much better, but time can only tell. The rate these casualties are dropping means things are looking up-- Hero said nothing about everything being perfectly fine and that it wipes out the mistakes made at the beginning of the Iraq War. And I don't like what I hear from Hillary about getting troops home-- oh, that's b/c she can never decide if she'll get them home in her first year or wait until her 2nd term.

Also,soldiers aren't coerced into joining. The Draft isn't in effect. If you join the military, be prepared for action. I feel for the grieving families, but Liberals do nothing to help the pain by yelling and promising to bring troops home, when it's obvious the troops can't all be brought home until Iraq is stable enough, AND there will still be casualties in other countries, for other reasons. And I quite a few soldiers who went to/are in Iraq, and all have great reports from their experiences with the people. Things are hard, but they're hopeful-- would like to see their country start backing them up.

I'm a conservative and I find that the Big Government began years and years ago, it's not a new thing, and it began after WWII. Democrats used to fight for the working man. My great-grandmother voted democrat her whole life b/c she saw what happened with her father and family due to unfair representation and Republicans used to favor the rich, I agree. Things have progressed now, and Republicans don't cater to the wealthy; the Dem. doctrine states that the government is responsible for every single US citizen (and now illegals, God help us)-- universal healthcare, Welfare up the whazzu, we'll become socialists soon enough if Democrats are in charge. And y'know what I see in our future? United Socialists of America aka. communism. Ask Canada what they think of their healthcare system.

Ok, I'm done, and I expect some new rant in reply to this. You'd think I know better than to talk to a brick wall.

K

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Saturday, October 27, 2007 3:17 AM