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citizen wrote:
Thursday, November 01, 2007 00:25
You know Au, initially I took what you said head on, but I realised, there really is no point while you're being this unreasonable. You've stopped merely Strawmaning my argument, and moved on to outright lying.

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Ron Paul isn't the issue, Muslims aren't really the issue, fear is the issue.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Sorry, fear isn't the issue what so ever.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

Over the past six decades or so the United States has prolly been responsible for killing more innocent civilians than any other entity, all in the name of "anticommunism".

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We've cozied up to and brought to power all kinds of nasty tyrants INCLUDING the Shah of Iran, the Taliban, and Saddam Hussein, knowing full well what they were doing to "their people". Aside from the observation that fear makes people do stupid things like support the Taliban, what would you say about our "religion" of anticommunism which has NOT lead to democracy in most of the affected countries?

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BTW_ I'll repeat what I've said many times before: 9-11 didn't frighten me. Why? Because I was expecting it. I acknowledge that there are people "out there" who hate us with the white-hot hatred that only irrationality and religion can create. But you do not fight the irrational by being yourselves irrational. You have to appeal to the remaining people who have yet to be swayed, and you DON'T do that by rampaging through their world, creating chaos and death and poverty everywhere you go, especially if they had nothing to do with the offense that set you off. We've got enough enemies. Why create more?

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Sorry, fear isn't the issue what so ever.

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Well, it kinda is....
Remember the movie Jaws? Peeps by the thousands avoided swimming at the beach because of A MOVIE.
A MOVIE.
Reel peeps doing bad stuff in the name of Islam are out there.
But know what?
You have a better chance of getting bit by a shark than blown up by their ICBM's.

Yeah, it's fear all right.

Duh duh duh duh Chrisisall

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Remember the movie Jaws? Peeps by the thousands avoided swimming at the beach because of A MOVIE.
A MOVIE.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Reel peeps doing bad stuff in the name of Islam are out there.
But know what?
You have a better chance of getting bit by a shark than blown up by their ICBM's.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Do as I say not as I do?

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Originally posted by mal4prez:

Maybe I'm wrong to single you out Rap. I just read your post and started wondering if you treat people in real life the way you treat people here. Made me wonder what is the root of this hostility. Are you at all happy? Does this anger serve you well? Does it help you get your way? Make friends? Does it solve any problems? Really?

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Let me just say I identify with Mal...

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Only the shark in Jaws was FAKE. The Islamo-nutcases are very real.

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I'll even go so far as to say Chrisisall will vouch that I'm far more congenial elsewhere.

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Over the past six decades or so the United States has prolly been responsible for killing more innocent civilians than any other entity, all in the name of "anticommunism".- Signy

That's quite possibly the biggest misstatement/lie/ this site has ever been witness to. You're clearly overlooking Stalin's Gulags, Pol Pot's Khmere Rouge, N.Korea, China, Cuba.... my god, it's not even fair to go on.

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Their 2-year series of atrocities is sometimes called 'The Silent Holocaust'.... demonstrating an aggressive racist component of extreme cruelty that led to extermination en masse of defenceless Mayan communities, including children, women and the elderly, through methods whose cruelty has outraged the moral conscience of the civilised world.' Working methodically across the Mayan region... Children were often beaten against walls, or thrown alive into pits where the bodies of adults were later thrown; they were also tortured and raped. Victims of all ages often had their limbs amputated, or were impaled and left to die slowly. Others were doused in petrol and set alight, or disembowelled while still alive. Yet others were shot repeatedly, or tortured and shut up alone to die in pain. The wombs of pregnant women were cut open. Women were routinely raped while being tortured. Women - now widows - who lived could scarcely survive the trauma: 'the presence of sexual violence in the social memory of the communities has become a source of collective shame'. Covert operations were also carried out by military units called Commandos, backed up by the army and military intelligence. They carried out planned executions and forced 'disappearances'. Death squads (some of which in time came under the army's umbrella), largely made up of criminals, murdered suspected 'subversives' or their allies; under dramatic names, such as 'The White Hand' or 'Eye for an Eye', they terrorised the country and contributed to the deliberate strategy of psychological warfare and intimidation.

Throughout the period of the genocide, the USA continued to provide military support to the Guatemalan government, mainly in the form of arms and equipment. The infamous guerrilla training school, the School of the Americas in Georgia USA, continued to train Guatemalan officers notorious for human rights abuses; the CIA worked with Guatemalan intelligence officers, some of whom were on the CIA payroll despite known human rights violations.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
It's about cleaning up OUR mess first, Auraptor. And right now we've got a lot of fence-mending to do.

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Originally posted by rue:
So, Rap, is your contention that we need to fight them 'cause they're evil and we're not ?

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Originally posted by rue:
Rap - you didn't answer my question.

I figure the Jihadists have killed maybe 7000, including and since 9/11. Let's say 4000 for 9/11, 500 in Bali, 500 in Beslan, and a couple of thousand for places and people we don't hear about - Indonesians, Afghanis, etc. Now, I know for a fact that as many civilians have been killed by US air-strikes in Afghanistan as by Islamists and warlords together. And the figure for the US attacking Iraq (which didn't actually do anything to the US) - let's take that as a VERY conservative 70,000.

Blowing up the Buddha statues is probably cancelled out by the looting of Iraq museums under the eye of the US AND by US troops. Of course the US is also responsible for the complete destruction of Iraq's infrastructure.

Let's put the US toll at a VERY conservative 70,000 and give the physical destruction category to the US. Who is more evil ?


You tell me.

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citizen wrote:
Thursday, November 01, 2007 14:14
I think arguing "who is more evil, the US or Terrorists" is a bit pointless.

In fact it's clear AU can't think clearly on this subject*, I could post pictures of people covered in blood from attacks perpetrated by Christians, Hindus, fluffy rabbits with big sharp pointy teeth, and say "All this done in the name of GOD - GANESHA - CARROTS!" Like the act is representative of the entire religion**.

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Originally posted by rue:
Dude, 7,000 to 70,000. Do you think the people who were killed are any less dead b/c you tell yourself you're 'right' ?

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
AU...you're starting to make me think of PirateNews' tactics... those pictures get an emotional response, but pictures of CIA trained Contras filling mass graves with women and children would do the same.
Stick to conversing to make your point.

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Originally posted by rue:
Tell me what's false. Dead is dead. We got more, they got an order of magnitude less.

So tell me - what's false.

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['m done talking to a bunch of drones who can't think for themselves. You think long and hard at those photos

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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['m done talking to a bunch of drones who can't think for themselves. You think long and hard at those photos

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Yep. Mesmerized. Yanno, I could post a lot of photos of my own (if I knew how. Anyone care to PM me? ) Did you read the descriptions of children being bashed against walls, women raped as they were tortured, limbs cut off and people left in agony to bleed to death? Brought to you by... the USA!

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Originally posted by rue:
Like I said, dead is dead. An OOPS (damn my butterfingers !) death is the same as a gottcha.

But I WAY undercounted. The total is somewhere between 500,000 and 1,500,000.

So, you know, you're right. It's apples and oranges.
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Originally posted by rue:
So, in Iraq alone the US has caused AT LEAST 10x more deaths than Jihadists have worldwide.

Do you still say they are more evil ?

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citizen - You posted historical pics of the holocaust, to prove a point. A point with which I emphatically agree.

I then post historical pics of what is going on in our time, and your dismiss it, out of hand. It seems you and 6ixString see things through the same lens more often than you'd like to admit.

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Sorry to disapoint, but I didn't bring up any more 'strawmen' remarks. I'll leave that to you.

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Originally posted by citizen:

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citizen - You posted historical pics of the holocaust, to prove a point. A point with which I emphatically agree.

I then post historical pics of what is going on in our time, and your dismiss it, out of hand. It seems you and 6ixString see things through the same lens more often than you'd like to admit.

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6 was denying the holocaust took place, so I posted pictures of Jews in concentration camps. You are arguing that Islamic Terrorism is representative of Islam as a whole, all you're pictures prove is Islamic Terrorism exists, not that it is representative. My use of images was a legitimate support of my argument, yours was a red herring.

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Originally posted by rue:
So, in Iraq alone the US has caused AT LEAST 10x more deaths than Jihadists have worldwide.

Do you still say they are more evil ?

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Read descriptions ? Now you're fucking joking. Given by who? The very Islamo -fascists who did such horrendous acts themselves, only to cry to a believing world media who accepts the lies of thugs and cut throats ?

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That's bullshit and you know it! NONE of that was done by the USA. This crap ' brougth to you by ' is simple code for.. " well, others did it, but not US soldiers, so we can't accurately blame it on them, nor did they WANT it to happen, but becasue someone else did it, we'll simply blame the US because....... we got nothing else. What a fucking joke.

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So the CIA adopted the Ho's strategy-but on a grander and bloodier scale. The object of Contre Coup was to identify and terrorize each and every individual VCI and his/her family, friends and fellow villagers. To this end the CIA in 1964 launched a massive intelligence operation called the Provincial Interrogation Center Program. The CIA (employing the US company Pacific Architects and Engineers) built an interrogation center in each of South Vietnam's 44 provinces. Staffed by members of the brutal Special Police, who ran extensive informant networks, and advised by CIA officers, the purpose of the PICs was to identify, through the systematic "interrogation" (read torture) of VCI suspects, the membership of the VCI at every level of its organization; from its elusive headquarters somewhere along the Cambodian border, through the region, city, province, district, village and hamlet committees.

... Eventually the irrepressible Americans added their own improvements. In his autobiography Soldier, Anthony Herbert describes arriving in Saigon in 1965, reporting to the CIA's Special Operations Group, and being asked to join a top-secret psywar program. What the CIA wanted Herbert to do, "was to take charge of execution teams that wiped out entire families."

By 1967, killing entire families had become an integral facet of the CIA's counter-terror program. ... Yes, the CIA has a global, illegal strategy of terrorizing people, although in typical CIA lexicon it's called "anti-terrorism." {Because} When you're waging illegal warfare, language is every bit as important as weaponry and the will to kill. Neil Sheehan... recently confessed that in 1966 he saw US soldiers massacre as many as 600 Vietnamese civilians in five fishing villages.

Phoenix Comes To Thanh Phong

The CIA launched its Phoenix Program in June 1967, after 13 years of tinkering with several experimental counter-terror and psywar programs, and building its network of secret interrogation centers. A typical Phoenix operation began in a Province Interrogation Center where a suspected member of the VCI was brought for questioning. After a few days or weeks or months undergoing various forms of torture, the VCI suspect would die or give the name and location of his VCI comrades and superiors... By 1969 the CIA, through Phoenix, was targeting individual VCI and their families all across Vietnam. Over 20,000 people were assassinated by the end of the year and hundreds of thousands had been tortured in Province Interrogation Centers....Phoenix, alas, also was fiendishly effective and became a template for future CIA operations. Developed in Vietnam and perfected with the death squads and media blackout of Afghanistan and El Salvador, it is now employed by the CIA around the world.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
What Auraptor? No moral outrage?

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
These contras were battling Soviet trained Sandinistas,

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Originally posted by rue:
Rap

"You recycling your flawed argument isn't going to change the facts."

But - WHY - is it flawed ? Can you answer that question ?

Is it because American deaths count and Iraqi deaths don't ? Is it because 'they' intend to kill small numbers of civilians while the US merely discounts civilians and so kills wholesale numbers ? Is it because the US sometimes says OOPS afterwards, so it makes it all right ?

Tell me - WHY - is it flawed ?

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