Liberty Dollars seized 15 Nov 2007 by canttakesky

This is still very much unconfirmed. All the reports are based on emails sent out to Liberty Dollars customers. There's been no confirmation from anyone in contact with the owner or the authorities.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:22 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Unfortunately, it's been confirmed by Larken Rose, a friend of mine who knows a lot of these folk ( http://www.larkenrose.com). Maybe he's wrong, but he wouldn't say "confirmed" unless he confirmed it.

Addendum: Along with the $1 million they seized in gold and silver is their new mint of Ron Paul dollars.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

Aude sapere (Dare to know). -- Samuel Hahnemann, M.D.

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Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:30 AM

This just popped up at Reason Magazine:

Liberty Dollar Reportedly Raided by FBI

Brian Doherty | November 15, 2007, 3:22pm

The Evansville Courier-Press, the local paper in the city where the Liberty Dollar is headquartered, is reporting:

The future of an Evansville-based company that produces a "private voluntary barter currency" known as the Liberty Dollar is in question after federal agents raided the facility this week, according to an e-mail sent by its founder.

Federal officials reportedly raided the group's headquarters, located in a strip mall at 225 N. Stockwell Road, early Wednesday morning and seized documents and precious metals.

See Stephen Gordon's blog for the full letter Liberty Dollar chief Bernard von NotHaus supposedly sent out this morning, and for some speculation that the whole email and story might be bogus. Like the Evansville Courier-Press, I have so far gotten no comment from the Indianapolis FBI, and no returned calls from von NotHaus or the U.S. Attorney's office for the Western District of North Carolina. The Courier-Press story does state that they spoke to unnamed Liberty Dollar employees who seemed to verify the raid had indeed occurred.

UPDATE: Thanks to reasoner Jeff Taylor, I've seen a copy of a Nov. 9 seizure warrant on an Asheville, NC, address, not available online, claiming that Liberty Dollars at that address are forefeitable for being connected with money laundering and mail fraud. I have not read the entire 38 page warrant, nor am I 100 percent certain it is connected with the actions in Evansville today, but given that the Indianapolis FBI referred me to the U.S. Attorney in North Carolina, probably so, and that multiple raids were planned or executed re: the liberty dollar.

The warrant explains that the FBI from Aug 2005 to July 2007 were "conducting undercover operations to determine the legality of the American Liberty Dollar currency." The warrant also notes that von NotHaus sold an undercover agent a Liberty Dollar T-shirt, and that the agent observed von NotHaus driving a 1999 Cadillac Deville. It doesn't take a trained federal agent to connect the dots here, I suppose. In other words: What-th-what-th-What?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, November 15, 2007 12:18 PM

Yah, I wasn't sayin nothin cause I too was waiting confirmation.

http://courierpress.com/news/2007/nov/15/liberty-dollar-office-raided/

Assholes.

I saw this comin as a direct response to the dollar takin a rightfully deserved bath on both international and domestic fronts.

All of my liberty currency has in fact actual "melt value" equal to or greater than it's face value, cause it's real money - not some fiat backed paper bullshit monopoly money that becomes less valuable the longer you hold it.

FYI, I no longer take paper money for small engine work, precious metals and real goods only, and a lot of locals are beginning to adopt the same attitude - we might see a smackdown soon on local currencies if the dollar continues to tank.

I *AM* however going to find it hilarious if they dare try to charge them for in theory selling coinage at over it's melt value, when you can turn around and point to the US Dollar not even worth the fekkin paper it's printed on.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, November 15, 2007 1:13 PM

CANTTAKESKY

We're trying to decide what to buy with our money before it is worthless. Looking at arable land, metals, etc. We're reluctant to get gold since the price is sky high, but it is only going to get worse, so ....

One person advised us that the most important need is the weapons to defend whatever else we invest in. Hehe.

Any advice?

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

Aude sapere (Dare to know). -- Samuel Hahnemann, M.D.

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Thursday, November 15, 2007 1:39 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I bought a fair bit of gold a while ago. At the time it was a gamble. Now I wish I had bought a lot more.

I'm wondering the same thing about what to do with USD. Thinking of converting my dollars to foreign currency and putting it in a foreign bank.

What did Argentina do ? Close the banks, change the currency (for anyone holding paper at home). The only people who came through as far as I remember had foreign currencies - NOT in the bank - and gold.

Anyone remember anything else ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, November 15, 2007 1:42 PM

KANEMAN

They should not have put Ron Paul's face on the thing.....seriously.

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Thursday, November 15, 2007 2:46 PM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
They should not have put Ron Paul's face on the thing.....seriously.

It is an ill omen since a President can only appear un US currency when he's dead..

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Friday, November 16, 2007 1:33 AM

"Any advice?"

Remington 870 express with a reloading kit ?

inexpensive, reliable, last on the ban list, easy to care for and quite effective at defending your household with a minimum of skill or training.

As for assets, high quality tools is a good dual use investment, either way you're in the clear.

Not quite down to the drinkable water, toilet paper and ammo stage yet (ask ex-army grunts their value) - but if things get truly nasty, worth stockpiling those too.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, November 16, 2007 5:06 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
It leaves me aghast that our govt can come in and seize private property like this, for no other reason than that they want to.

And the pesky little warrant.

My first thought...scam. These things are scams. Second thought...crime, you can't print your own money. Third thought...laughing, cause of all the crazy talkers who probably fell for this scam. Ron Paul Dollars...now thats funny.

H

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Friday, November 16, 2007 5:29 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Scam.

My understanding is that they were selling the Ron Paul dollars at between 25% and 400% markup. So much for gold-backed dollars. Ron Paul dollars seem to have their own brand of inflation.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, November 16, 2007 11:50 AM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

www.libertydollar.org/ld/legal/raid.htm

US Treasury already told the US Senate that paper Liberty Dollars are 100% LEGAL, which can be redeemed for Liberty coins:
www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/paper_legal.pdf

The alleged "crime" is called "confusing", which of course is no crime in US Code. The US Constitution guarantees the right to property. Unless the Constitution is repealed, Liberty "medallions" are 100% legal.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
It leaves me aghast that our govt can come in and seize private property like this, for no other reason than that they want to.

And the pesky little warrant.

My first thought...scam. These things are scams. Second thought...crime, you can't print your own money. Third thought...laughing, cause of all the crazy talkers who probably fell for this scam. Ron Paul Dollars...now thats funny.

H

Yeah, the warrant is obviously based on a purjured affidavit of probable cause by a criminal informant. Typical feds. That's why TV cameras are banned in fed court. Prosecutors will be lucky they don't get Gonzalezed or Agnewed.

Note that no crime is alleged, and no informant is named, and no Affidavit of Probable Cause for Criminal Complaint is produced naming a complainant or witness, just a boilerplate (bogus) warrant:

www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/search_warrent_20071114.pdf
www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/seizure_warrent_20071114.pdf
www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/agent_info_20071114.pdf

You can't print your own money. Tell that to the private Federal Reserve Bank Corporation that counterfeits all "US dollar bills" aka Federal Reserve Debt Notes, that can no longer be redeemed for real money since 1973. Heck, they even keep 100% of all income taxes donated by illiterate slaves for the past 90 years, for profit of international banksters.

I'm gonna laff at all the fed heads that will roll when the class litigation settles. Following illegal orders is never a valid legal defense. Of course the feds don't care, because the "election" will be over by then, and the feds will just borrow more paper from the Fed Reserve Banksters to pay the victims, and bill it to the sheeple, including "Hero".

And think how much that gold and silver will be worth when it's returned to its rightfull owners, by President Ron Paul, who then disbands the FBI, Federal Reserve and IRS.

Here's the real reason for the raid:

"Peace" is now defined as “Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism” by H.R. 1955.
http://fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=31464

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Friday, November 16, 2007 12:07 PM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:

Well this explains Ron Pauls huge warchest.

H

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Friday, November 16, 2007 12:17 PM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:

Well this explains Ron Pauls huge warchest.

H

FBI seized TWO TONS of Ron Paul gold and silver. Can't let it compete with the Amerodollar when it replaces the so-called "US dollar" (which died 90 years ago when replaced by private Federal Reserve Bank Notes).

Funny how the Media Mafia is mute on this confiscation of private gold, silver and platinum. Think how that would spook Wall Street and investors, and IRAs with gold and silver.

World Net Daily is selling Queen Ghoulliani, so they don't mind thft of the Ron Paul Dollars. No matter how much WND loves Liberty Dollars, they'll sell their soul to the Marxist Neocons.
www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58724

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendi_Deng
Hanoi Hannity: "Outsourcing your job is good for me."
"US ports owned by Commie China is good for me."
"Dead and disabled US soldiers are good for me."
"Sir Rupert dines with Hillary every week."
"Ron Paul does not exist in my 'Verse."

"As far as Chinese goes, I resented it."
-Adam Tudyk, The Making of Firefly

FOX, MYSPACE & FIREFLY OWNED BY COMMUNIST CHINA!
www.piratenews.org/pntv-schedule.html

Does that seem right to you?
Firefly Music Video: Tangerine dream - Confrontation, Thief soundtrack
www.megavideo.com/?v=JVT35GR8
www.scifi.com/onair/

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Friday, November 16, 2007 3:22 PM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:

Well this explains Ron Pauls huge warchest.

H

Hero....this explains Ron Paul's warchest...His message, Anti-neocon sentiment, Anti-Clintonism, and douche-bags like you....Well, it's true.....

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Friday, November 16, 2007 3:55 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I am confused. I did not know that owning precious metals was illegal. People own jewelry and other items made of gold, silver, and other precious metals. Moreover, the value of a precious-metal item frequently has dubious correlation to its actual mineral worth.

Unless these coins claim to be legal US currency (which I see no evidence of) then I fail to see the problem. They're not conterfeit money. They are real objects of value, made from precious metals.

Can any of the lawyers on this board articulate to me exactly which law was broken, and how?

Thanks,

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, November 16, 2007 4:23 PM

They are going to try to nail them for money laundering and mail fraud.

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Friday, November 16, 2007 4:51 PM

The money laundering charge belies their true concern. The threat to legal currency isn't their biggest worry. The biggest threat, from the viewpoint of mainstream banking and government interests is the return to anonymous transactions.

Most of the recent efforts to change the way we handle money have been centered around the ability to track all transactions. That's why they're pushing us relentlessly to accept a cashless economy and it's why they see alternative money as a threat. They're pushing for the ability to seize anyone's assets at the press of a button. You can't do that to someone who has a closet full of gold.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, November 16, 2007 6:23 PM

Ayep.

Gettin reports from all over now, the jackboots are coming down all over the country on alternative and real metal currencies, just as both expected and anticipated would happen when the dollar finally really tanked.

Any accusation that can be thrown at these guys, however - can be also thrown at the Fed in spades, which is kind of an irony, isn't it ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, November 16, 2007 6:28 PM

"Can any of the lawyers on this board articulate to me exactly which law was broken, and how?"

Uh oh, now you've done it, might wanna retain a lawyer, and i'm saying that only half in jest.

In the context you just used it, that is one of "those" questions guaranteed to get you on a "list" somewhere - look what asking a similar one got Ed Brown.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, November 16, 2007 7:28 PM

MISSTRESSAHARA

Wow, is this actually real?

You guys are living in a frightening country right now.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
~Peter*Peter*Power>~re-peater~

HEROES IS MY CRACK!

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

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Saturday, November 17, 2007 1:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Misstressahara:
Wow, is this actually real?

You guys are living in a frightening country right now.

That's one long sig!

Well, read this from the 'wild and crazy' USA Today:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/2006-09-14-liberty-usat_x.htm

Quote:
"We don't want consumers to be fooled," U.S. Mint spokeswoman Becky Bailey says, noting U.S. Attorneys offices across the USA have noticed a marked increase in inquiries about the coins.

Now... here's one point in the feds favor. Let's take 'typical sheeple' Joe. Joe is a nice guy, but not necessarily the bright bulb on the block. And we have Mac; basically honest but busy. Mac goes to a garage sale and sees a nice collectible for sale, the item is marked $21. Let's assume it is a model of a space ship. Mac whips out a genuine silver (-not- certificate in my example) coin, it is marked $20 and says 'Trust in God' on it. Mac offers Joe the coin "Will you take this for that space ship." Joe figures that $20 isn't bad for the item in question, and sells it. Later at the bank, his deposit is declined; it is -not- US currency. Joe is a bit panicky at this point. In the end, he learns that he is the proud owner of one ounce troy silver. Silver is running 14.50 on the spot market. Joe sells the coin at his next garage sale for $14 US to Sally, and he is a bit aggravated.

Sally then sells the coin on ebay for $25 and is quite pleased. (If you saw what the Ron Paul silver dollars were trading for on Ebay, you would say I didn't give Sally a fair price, they've gone through the roof)

The Feds are trying to protect poor Joe. He's easily confused and deceived.

My only observation is that Mac should (morally, not legally, in my opinion) have explained to Joe that he was offering one ounce silver; and that it was not US$20 currency.

Let's instead look at Ithaca Hours
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithaca_hours
Main advantage is this clearly is not denominated in dollars, thus is not likely to 'fool' anyone one. Folks aren't going to accept them until they are explained. Currently, they are 'pegged' to the US dollar; of course, all it takes is a 'community agreement' to honor hours for more than the current US$10 dollars per 'hour'.

Personally, I don't have a lot of sympathy for Joe. I think Joe needs to open his eyes and look at things he's accepting for his garage sales; he needs to ask questions if he's given a unit of currency he's never seen before. Remember the 'old days' when the CAD$10 traded for US$8? Would folks feel any different about Joe if he had taken a CAD$20 bill, then been all confused when he could only get US$15.80 (after exchange fees) for it? At least, he'd have a chance the bank would accept it and do the conversion for him.

Unless the Feds have something more on Liberty Dollar Inc (or whatever they are called), I think they have overstepped.

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Saturday, November 17, 2007 1:52 AM

GREAT BARRINGTON, Massachusetts has the BerkShares

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0530157720070619

1 BerkShare is 'supposed' to only be worth US$0.9; but has already risen against the US$ such it is being accepted for US$1. Have to watch this one.

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Saturday, November 17, 2007 2:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
My first thought...scam. These things are scams. Second thought...crime, you can't print your own money. Third thought...laughing, cause of all the crazy talkers who probably fell for this scam. Ron Paul Dollars...now thats funny.

H

You may not be aware of it, but silver bullion is sold around the world. These Liberty Dollars are .999 pure one ounce silver (or gold or copper, depending on your choice of round). They are typically traded as 'rounds'. Most rounds trade on their silver content; however, many are minted with various impressions that, for whatever reason, will trade well above spot market price.

I'm sure you would not be 'Joe' above; you would have refused that 'funny coin'. But you are not Sally either.

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Saturday, November 17, 2007 5:56 AM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Gotta remove competition with the Ameridollar.
www.SPP.gov

www.deceptiondollar.com

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Saturday, November 17, 2007 8:18 AM

KANEMAN

"The United States Mint is the only entity that can produce coins," Bailey says

Better tell my local arcade, bowling alley, and car wash.....and what about that pesky wooden nickel?

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Sunday, November 18, 2007 2:45 AM

Found a link relative to this, but it's a long read, be warned.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/presiden/veto/ajveto01.htm

This is the entire text of Andrew Jacksons 1832 veto regarding the bank of the united states, whereby he refused to renew their charter, seeing the inherent corruption and dangers.

In part due to that fact, the US was Debt-Free for the first, last, and ONLY time in it's history during his tenure in office.

He'd prolly be downright offended at being pasted on a monopolized fiat currency offered by the functional equivalent of the monster he once slew.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, November 18, 2007 7:03 AM

Here's a 'less political' presentation of the lessons that the Liberty Dollar(LD) was intended to teach:

http://nhlibertydollar.com/blog/2007/sep/silver_money_why_bother_liber
ty_dollar

The LD site has some of the same, but it is couched in much more politically charged language. I think more folks will learn better from the above reference.

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 1:27 PM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Here's the bogus Affidavit of Probable Cause for a search warrant and seizure of assets:

http://www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/libertyaffidavit.pdf

Libery dollars were 100% legal for ten years, until they put Congressman Ron Paul's face on gold and silver collectables.

VIDEO: CNBC traitors demand arrest of Ron Paul for counterfeiting, discussing this 35-page FBI warrant for the crime of "selling a T-shirt":

http://www.truthnews.us/?p=940

At least CNBC admitted the Federal Reserve Bank Corporation is "run by counterfeiters".

Clearly a political attack during an election, which backfired. Dr Paul is getting millions of dollars in more free publicity, and the Fed Bank Corp is getting accused of counterfeiting on network TV. It's possible the two civil trials will result in overthrow of Fed Reserve Corporation.

There is no criminal indictment and no criminal trial in this case, just a civil asset forfeiture seizure defense, plus the civil injunction case previously filed by Liberty Dollar before the raid.

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 2:04 PM

Frankly, I think the folks at NORFED made a mistake when they made the Liberty Dollar look so much like the like the US American Eagle silver dollar. My guess is that due to the resemblance to the US Legal currency, they will probably succeed in getting a conviction. Shame, really.

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 2:38 PM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

The sloppy FBI affidavit names GEOCITIES.COM as a source for the definition of "Patriot Movement" as fighting a "tyrannical govt", but fails to name which of 100-millions of websites on Geocities.com it is quoting.

http://www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/libertyaffidavit.pdf

The entire affidavit is based on "undercover recordings" by an "undercover informant" attending public lectures given by the owners of Liberty Dollar.

Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
Frankly, I think the folks at NORFED made a mistake when they made the Liberty Dollar look so much like the like the US American Eagle silver dollar. My guess is that due to the resemblance to the US Legal currency, they will probably succeed in getting a conviction. Shame, really.

Didn't the US Treasury quit making Liberty Silver Dollars over 50 years ago? That's called abandonment of copyright.

This is NOT a criminal case, so no way to get a conviction. Under civil asset forfeiture seizre laws, no body is arrested or charged with a crime. The property is stolen by the govt police state death squads, who then KEEPS IT FOR THEMSELVES AS PIRATE BOOTY. The stolen loot is NOT turned over to a govt entity.

When a sheriff steals assets, usually the loot is divided among the sheriff and deputies, and not turned over to the county municipal corporation. It's like parking tickets and robocop traffic tickets, where 90% to 100% of the loot is kept by private contractors.

I predict Liberty Dollar will win both civil trials in court, but it will be many years after Ron Paul is elected president in 2008.

I've been fighting my social security case in federal courts for over 10 years, and won an appeal last month. Which means it will take several more years before the case is finished. In that case I moved the court for an order banning illegal aliens in Mexico for collecting social security pensions after only 1 year in USA.

But when I got a fed traffic ticket last summer, the feds kicked and screamed to ram the trial through fed court ASAP, without any discovery. The fed magistrate declared on the record, "There will be no discovery in this case!" So it was okay for the park ranger to destroy the videotape and audiotape evidence, and it's okay for the ranger to have prior criminal convictions for perjury and other crimes, according to the magistrate. So now that case is on appeal.

The fed courts as currently run are totally unconstitutional. ALL profits in fed courts are turned over to ANNONYMOUS PRIVATE CORPORATIONS, with none of the profits turned over to the fed govts, according to the official website of the US District Courts.

Just like 100% of income taxes collected by IRS are turned over to the private Fed Reserve Bank Corp, with NONE of the taxes given to the fed govt.

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
Didn't the US Treasury quit making Liberty Silver Dollars over 50 years ago? That's called abandonment of copyright.

Perhaps, but the Liberty Silver Dollar is still US currency; you can take it out and spend it as a dollar if you wish (it would be a silly thing to do, but you can). Keep in mind, all they need is one excuse to make the thing stick.

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:55 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

This is what I don't get. I bought and took possession of gold bars minted and backed by a Swiss bank. I can either exchange those bars for something else I thought was of equal or better value or sell them at a premium. You could say I was bartering, or selling a commodity at a premium, or using them as currency. Either way, I'd be doing with my bars exactly what people do with Liberty Dollars. Yet it's all legal and I don't expect the feds to pound on my door and confiscate my private property.

So why again would they do that to Liberty Dollars ? Maybe someone can explain b/c I'm missing it.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 7:06 PM

Quote:
So why again would they do that to Liberty Dollars ? Maybe someone can explain b/c I'm missing it.

Yeah..... I don't get it. Seems like theft to me. That, and somebody above mentioned quelling any desire in the proles to pay for things without being tracable.

I must say that I am the proud owner 2 months ago of zero credit cards. I even changed my debit card to an ATM card. Now I can only pay for things with cash (and to hell with all of you people singing and dancing in the VISA commercials. You can sit your happy asses down and wait till the mongoloid at the register struggles to count out my 37 cents change).

I've been buying smokes and booze for about 3 or 4 years only with cash money but now that covers everything. All I need to do now is let go of that extra money I save at the grocery store using their card (or acquire another card without my name) and I'm completely off the books as far as any of my purchases are concerned.

Can ya see the tinfoil hat? Mayhap you can, but I have a feeling that when insurance companies start buying your grocery and credit card lists, I'm going to feel a lot better knowing they couldn't write me a letter about denial of benefits because they can give an exact number of the amount of alcahol and smokes I've purchased in the last 15 or 20 years.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 7:24 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I assume you don't shop online ? And if you do, how do you manage w/out a cc ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 8:00 PM

I do very little shopping online anymore. Another benefit of not having a card readily available is that it eliminates almost all impulse spending. ;)

I've got more than enough people around me who are more than happy to help me out if I find a deal online that I can't get in stores.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 9:28 PM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
This is what I don't get. I bought and took possession of gold bars minted and backed by a Swiss bank. I can either exchange those bars for something else I thought was of equal or better value or sell them at a premium. You could say I was bartering, or selling a commodity at a premium, or using them as currency. Either way, I'd be doing with my bars exactly what people do with Liberty Dollars. Yet it's all legal and I don't expect the feds to pound on my door and confiscate my private property.

So why again would they do that to Liberty Dollars ? Maybe someone can explain b/c I'm missing it.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

Well looking at what's been posted here it seems to be a combination of

1) Looking like it is legal tender
2) having a face value that is different from it's commodity value.

Looking at it from a LE angle it looks like a slick scam, you make your own coins and then attempt to pass them off as legal tender. They should really have named it something like the Shilling now that Austria has moved to the Euro.

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 9:39 PM

Slick scams I see infomercials for all the time:

Abtronic, Enzyte and Extendz.

I have yet to hear about a boner pill raid.

Venture a guess why?

Boner pills you can buy at 3AM don't work and aren't worth their weight in salt peter. Millions of idiots so desperate for a hardon that they're buying them though cause some brainless Playboy bunny's are telling him that he needs to enhance that "special part of the male anatomy".

The way I see it, Big Gov just saw a helluva lot of gold it wanted and just took it.

Or as I like to call it "Eminent Dinero".

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 9:58 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Fletch2

1) Looking like it is legal tender
So if it was an oblong like a bar no one would care ?

2) having a face value that is different from it's commodity value.
Happens to the US dollar all the time.

But anyway - let's say I have a 1oz gold bar that someone thinks is really neat. It's commodity value is ~ $800. But b/c they think it's so neat they'll do $1600 worth of work to have it. At that point we've bartered an exchange. My gold bar is no longer functioning 'like' currency but as a different type of exchange. As long as the two parties agree to the exchange it doesn't seem to me it should be illegal.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 10:02 PM

Yup Rue...

That just about sums it up.

And from what I've heard, nobody was arrested. What exactly are the charges here? This all seem very rediculous to me.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, November 26, 2007 2:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
1) Looking like it is legal tender
So if it was an oblong like a bar no one would care ?

2) having a face value that is different from it's commodity value.
Happens to the US dollar all the time. But anyway - let's say I have a 1oz gold bar that someone thinks is really neat. It's commodity value is ~ $800. But b/c they think it's so neat they'll do $1600 worth of work to have it. At that point we've bartered an exchange. My gold bar is no longer functioning 'like' currency but as a different type of exchange. As long as the two parties agree to the exchange it doesn't seem to me it should be illegal.

Re 1) I would also recommend avoiding any reference to the US or USA on the item; or any other government. I'd also recommend not putting a face value on the item. As to caring; it's hard to say, it depends on the real reason the government raided NORFED. I will note the Ron Paul dollar has the following characteristics:
(c)USA
$20
--maybe it is (tm)USA. This is an interesting conundrum because they -have- to include such if they want to protect the copyright or trademark; but one has to ask what that $20 on the coin -means-. You might struggle if you 'advertise' something like "America's Inflation Proof Currency"(tm Liberty Dollar)
2) Happens all the time. The US American Eagle Gold coin is currently trading at $844 on one exchange I follow, while 'gold rounds' are trading at $807. That spread is a bit higher than usual; I normally expect to see it closer to $30 delta; but that could easily flip around by later today.

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Monday, November 26, 2007 2:37 AM

Ah... I imagine this might get them in trouble as well

http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/about/index.htm

Quote:

IT'S REAL MONEY!
The Liberty Dollar is real, private currency that you can use instead of your familiar US dollars. You can spend Liberty Dollars just like U.S. dollars.

Really? That's bold claim. I will say that if you took one to a store, and they refused to honor it for the $20 face value, you could claim that the folks at Liberty Dollar deceived you. I suspect this is the sort of thing that is ultimately going to do them in.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 1:08 AM

THEHEROOFWILLIAMTOWN

Sounds like the ultimate in penis envy to me on the US government's part. Sounds completely harmless to me.

I can't understand how they seized all that kit though.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 4:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I assume you don't shop online ? And if you do, how do you manage w/out a cc ?

I keep a debit card for that purpose, but it's the only piece of plastic I own.

I heard the head of the US Treasury speaking on NPR a few years back. He was going on and on about the virtues of the coming 'cashless economy'. In his dream world all transactions were traceable and fraud was a thing of the past. Black markets would cease to exist and criminals could be stripped of all their assets at the touch of a button. All of the financial transactions in the country could be accounted for, and traced if necessary.

It scared me more than a little. It's frustrating that so many employers today force direct deposit on their employees. Even more unfortunate is the fact that most people accept it unquestioningly.

We need to be more vocal about the REAL reason a cashless economy would be a direct threat to freedom. It's not about privacy per se, it's about anonymity. I don't want the government tracking my grocery purchase and having a back door to my checking account. I don't want them to have instant access to all my assets.

In a way, it's the same issue as the taser thing. I just don't want them to have that much control. Period.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 4:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
Quote:
IT'S REAL MONEY!
The Liberty Dollar is real, private currency that you can use instead of your familiar US dollars. You can spend Liberty Dollars just like U.S. dollars.

Really? That's bold claim. I will say that if you took one to a store, and they refused to honor it for the $20 face value, you could claim that the folks at Liberty Dollar deceived you. I suspect this is the sort of thing that is ultimately going to do them in.

Yup. If that's a direct quote, it's fairly damning - at least as far as the letter of the law goes. They needed to be clear that it was NOT legal tender - ie no one is required to accept it as payment. If they'd kept that point clear, they might not have invited the raid. But I suspect the raid was NotHaus's goal all along.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 4:39 AM

Quote:
Originally extracted from http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/about/index.htm
IT'S REAL MONEY!
The Liberty Dollar is real, private currency that you can use instead of your familiar US dollars. You can spend Liberty Dollars just like U.S. dollars.

Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
Really? That's bold claim. I will say that if you took one to a store, and they refused to honor it for the $20 face value, you could claim that the folks at Liberty Dollar deceived you. I suspect this is the sort of thing that is ultimately going to do them in.

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Yup. If that's a direct quote, it's fairly damning - at least as far as the letter of the law goes. They needed to be clear that it was NOT legal tender - ie no one is required to accept it as payment. If they'd kept that point clear, they might not have invited the raid. But I suspect the raid was NotHaus's goal all along.

!

Even I gotta admit that's pretty damning if it's real.

What I wanna know is am I going to get some fing closure on this story? Or is this going to be one of another millions of news stories I've read or seen on TV over the years that enrage, enlighten, or infuriate me and I never actually hear how it turns out because they never report that?

SergentX.... I don't know if you go to DC, but my brother was there last year and plans on going next year. I never make plans more than 20 seconds in advance, and if I spend my vacation like I did last year I'll be out of it two months beforehand, but you understand the issue of a cashless society. I'd love to buy you a beer at DC and bullshit for a while if we decide to show.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:00 AM