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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

When did you become one of them trollfolk, Chrisisall?

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
G) When it is actually human right violations, and not just someone calling it that because they have some issue with authority or political or economic ax to grind.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
I have major issues with authority, and this stems from the unprofessionalism I've witnessed in my years- from our Presidents to our police. That I have an ax to grind in no way changes the facts of these violations, or their destructive effects upon our society.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
At precisely what point should we be alarmed at human rights violations? Pick one.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
The truth is that screaming about human rights violations by our government when it is nothing more then your issue with authority puts us in more danger, not less.

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Originally posted by Geezer:
"When they came for the robbers and murderers
I remained silent,
Because I was not a robber or murderer"

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
The truth is that some people spend a great deal of time trying to convince me that we are living in Nazi Germany, yet their horrific accusations never materialize.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
G) When it is actually human right violations, and not just someone calling it that because they have some issue with authority or political or economic ax to grind.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
G) When it is actually human right violations, and not just someone calling it that because they have some issue with authority or political or economic ax to grind.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
the sheeple,

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When it is actually human right violations

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Once you start parsing out human rights as if they belonged to some but not others you're already there, man.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Would you taser the President?

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Would you waterboard a cop?

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Would you "detain" a solider in solitary for years and years w/o charges?

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I note for the record that the statement says HUMAN rights, not rights for authority but not for others. Once you start parsing out human rights as if they belonged to some but not others you're already there, man.

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Originally posted by Hero:
Our respect for human rights is essential, but must always come secondary to survival.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

Your post was well-worded Hero, and even funny, but I think where we differ is "Survival". You see it like it's an all-or-nothing proposition...if we lose we die...or so it would seem from your post.

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We can't be responsible for a rogue Jack Bauer type- but once we legitimize, through legislation or consent, the ways of the savage, then we ARE that savage.

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I guess that I just don't want to leave the issue of our survival to the mercy of our enemies.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
I get antsy 'bout stuff like that Chrisisall

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Originally posted by Geezer:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
I get antsy 'bout stuff like that Chrisisall

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But when other governments worldwide starve, murder, rape, beat, imprison, relocate, and otherwise deprive large portions of their populations of human rights, not so much, eh?

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Originally posted by Hero:
And somebody explain to me how a single, highly trained agent can drive anywhere in LA in five minutes or less but his highly trained team of back up agents is always ten minutes away by helicopter.

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But when other governments worldwide starve, murder, rape, beat, imprison, relocate, and otherwise deprive large portions of their populations of human rights, not so much, eh?

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Originally posted by Geezer:
"When they came for the robbers and murderers
I remained silent,
Because I was not a robber or murderer"

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Geezer, show me please where I've NOT called Chinese government a bunch of evil neo-comms...
I've condemned what's happening at Darfur, the treatment of Palistinians...I hated the South African government way before Lethal Weapon 2 made it fashionable...

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Originally posted by Geezer:


Tell me true, when you started this thread, who were you thinking of as being the human rights violater?

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Show me where most anyone here HAS started a thread calling the Chinese, or the Sudanese, or the North Koreans on their human rights abuses.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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But when other governments worldwide starve, murder, rape, beat, imprison, relocate, and otherwise deprive large portions of their populations of human rights, not so much, eh?

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Geezer, I wonder: Are you being a dick on purpose or can't you help yourself? You toss off this stuff as if it's somehow meaningful, but all you're doing- as usual- is putting words in someone else's mouth.

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Originally posted by leadb:

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Show me where most anyone here HAS started a thread calling the Chinese, or the Sudanese, or the North Koreans on their human rights abuses.

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I don't get your point. I'm willing to agree that these governments abuse human rights. I 'think' the point here is that many of us are in the US and we wish our country to be an 'example of that which is good'. Is that somehow a 'flawed' concept?

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Just trying, once again, to make a point, and subtlety hasn't worked too well. Human rights violations occur all over the place, but unless the US can be blamed somehow, they never get discussed here. Why is that, do you think?

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Just trying, once again, to make a point, and subtlety hasn't worked too well. Human rights violations occur all over the place, but unless the US can be blamed somehow, they never get discussed here. Why is that, do you think?

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if given the choice between stopping the tasering of a few American drunks and the starvation of a few hundred thousand North Korean peasants, I think I'd let the drunks twitch and the peasants eat.

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Originally posted by citizen:
When we're condemning human rights abuses, and doing the same ourselves, kinda loses the impact, ya know.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
But the press tends to be rather quiet about our allies' violations.

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Geezer - given the choice between stopping the tasering of a few American drunks and the starvation of a few hundred thousand North Korean peasants, I think I'd let the drunks twitch and the peasants eat.

SignyM - Eh, but that's NOT the choice. If modern Europe is any example of how things work, nations that mind human rights within their own borders ar also better at supporting human rights abroad.

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So your choice is not only a false dilemma, it may even be 100% backwards.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
How about the 10 million people that we either killed directly or abetted in their murder (thru aid, arms, intel, field support, training, and political cover)? Starting with 2.5 to 5 million Vietnamese.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
For myself, I think it's time that we, as a species, grew up and quit depending on the surrogate parentage of Government - throw that damn ring back in the fire where it belongs, and get on with evolving in a mental, emotional, and social aspect instead of simply physical, cause emotionally we're still at the have-bigger-club-take-your-stuff level of thought and behavior.

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Yep. Easy to tell you're being objective about this. Obviously the Viet Cong, the North Vietnamese Army, the Chinese and the Russians had nothing to do with any of those deaths.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

When did you become one of them trollfolk, Chrisisall?

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Oh, 'bout the time two cops shot a student at my girlfriend's college for asking for badge numbers after they beat a drunk dude unconscious for not quietly getting into an ambulance...



I get antsy 'bout stuff like that Chrisisall

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Originally posted by Geezer:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
At precisely what point should we be alarmed at human rights violations? Pick one.

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It depends. There's sort of a decision/action tree at work, especially in RWED.

IF the alleged violator is not the US or a US ally
THEN no one is ever alarmed

IF the alleged violator is a US ally
THEN Chris's (E option applies

IF the alleged violator is the US
THEN don't wait for evidence or proof, be alarmed!




"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Impossible solutions are not solutions at all. Try suggesting something actually doable for a change.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
The VC were in their own country.

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