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Personally I think it is crap. Just a bunch of dooom and gloom with no mention of any supreme court or any lower court orders.

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Why do I need to have one?

Why do you, for that matter?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Why do I need to have one?

Why do you, for that matter?

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Originally posted by rallem:
Why did you publish the link and then paste it here? You could have and probably should have simply posted the link and then your opinions regarding this article.

Personally I think it is crap. Just a bunch of dooom and gloom with no mention of any supreme court or any lower court orders.

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Signym: Many, many more Dems than Repugs voted against various restrictions. Unfortunately these are individually motivated people who don't reflect Party leadership. The Congresspeople with a conscience really belong in a third Party bc they get stabbed in the back over and over again.

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Anthony T:
Hello,

'What have the Dems done for me lately?' suggested to me that you feel the Democrats are responsible for protecting you from Bush's stomping of your rights and liberties.

That inspired me to ask your own affiliation, because it seemed like an odd sort of supposition. I thought, 'perhaps he is a Democrat and feels that the Democratic party owes him some protection from this wrongdoing.'

A better question might be, 'What have the Republicans done for me lately?' and the answer is, 'Work in unison to shrink my rights and misspend my dollars to the tune of a trillion or more.'

A best question might be, 'What have I done for me lately?' and the answer is, 'Not a hell of a lot. I mostly talk about how I don't like this stuff, and complain to my friends and associates.'

In my own case, the sins are worse. I helped to vote that bastard in. I suppose that means I have only myself to blame for the aftermath.

Incidentally, I'm registered Independent.

That makes my coat a kind of brownish color.

--Anthony

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Frem:

If I had to give it a name, I'd say Jack was a proto-anarchist Libertarian of the "Get the fuck outta my business!" stripe.

I myself am an outright Anarchist.

And what he's bitchin about, is the Dems getting the votes, majorities, and offices on the promise and premise that they were gonna STOP this shit, and then dropping to their knees and unzipping the administrations fly voluntarily.

And the bitchin comes of knockin your head against the futile brick wall of the idocy that is incumbency, helped along by morons who blindly allow Gerrymandering, and vote in blocs not necessarily supporting their interests, thus removing any threat value whatsoever of the individual constituent.

By all means, feel WELCOME to get all up in Conyers ass for practically hiding under the judiciary committee table hoping we don't notice him tryin not to rock the boat, heaven knows his wife, cindy sheehan, and his whole damn district is so far up his ass about it he's been practically hiding out like a fugitive - and still not doin a damn thing... look at the so-called "justice" dept - they laughed off those subpeanos, more or less spat in his face and dared him to DO anything about it, and we haven't heard shit since, have we now ?

Was that me, I woulda deputized some returning troops into the capitol police and showed those fuckers the business end of a dynamic entry warrant service, which is what they'd do to us mere peons if WE laughed off a subpeano like that.

More than anything, Jack strikes me as a pissed that damn fools are pinning their hopes on a bunch of chickenshit bastards who not only won't put a stop to it, but are likely to commit the same abuses if the political reins shift into their hands - they never wanted to stop that shit, they just wanted to be the ones holding the leash, is all....

And I TOLD folks that, back when they voted these pissants into office in the first damn place.

It's like handing the One Ring to Boromir and telling him to whup Saurons ass - sure, he might do it, but all you've done in the end is simply change who's sittin in the throne pissing on you.

And folks pinning their hopes on Ron Paul, great guy that he is, facing a system that will isolate, stonewall and politically nullify or ignore him, or just downright give him the Bulworth treatment - it's a great idea, but in practice not a hope in hell even IF the rigged game would allow the election of a candidate who actually represented the peons instead of their corporate masters.

Once again, it's takin cough syrup for tuberculosis, treating the symptoms instead of the problem.

You got any decent ideas, I'd like to hear em, cause I sure as hell don't.

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Jack, you and I have butted heads briefly in the past, but I like your style, boy.

You GO girl Chrisisall

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Originally posted by rallem:
If you are so fed up with the system why not move to a Country which better suits your needs?

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Originally posted by rallem:
If you are so fed up with the system why not move to a Country which better suits your needs?

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Originally posted by rue:
In the 70's it was put more succinctly as "America - love it or leave it." And it makes about as much sense now as it did then - which is - none.

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

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Originally posted by rallem:
If you are so fed up with the system why not move to a Country which better suits your needs?

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Chuckles.....

Read my previous posts and you'll know why. What a childish retort.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack]

Which of your previous posts? I am sorry, but I am at work and do not have the luxery of reading every single post, and if you answered the question earlier thus making my question "childish," then I appologize, but it was not intended as a retort. It was a simple question.

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Originally posted by Storymark:

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Originally posted by rallem:
If you are so fed up with the system why not move to a Country which better suits your needs?

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Yep, that's the kind of priciples this country was founded under. If you don't like it, roll over and take in the rear, or just go away.

Thank God people like you didn't run the revolution. We'd still be Brits.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Because we love the ideal, the dream, that is America - even tho through all this time it's been mostly bullshit, sure, the IDEA remains - we seek it, strive for it, in spite of a long history of Government that actively spites it, your average american damn well wants the ideals that this country was founded on.

Maybe a lotta folks have forgotten it, to swipe a paraphrase from Citizen "Better than a tinpot dictatorship isn't much of a yardstick to measure your freedom by..", but not all of us have.

As long as there is any hope at all, and I am doubtful enough in this respect to actually have a full-blown exit plan that I don't intend to share - many of us have decided to hold out, hope, and try to kick our country back onto the rails of the freedom train, until it becomes clearly impossible to do that, not out of some psychotic rabid flag waving nationalism, or because we think we're better than anyone else, but because we were born here, lived here, the communities and people who have touched and influanced our lives... they're all HERE...

It's an act of love, and we don't leave this country for the same reason Mal didn't just dump the wreck and get another ship at the end of Serenity, it's OUR ship, and we mean to keep her in the air, no matter what it takes.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Originally posted by rallem:
Is anybody here pushing for Ron Paul?

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Originally posted by rue:
Rallem

The reason why I found yur post interesting is b/c I too am first generation (Polish) and know many immigrants, including those from Hungary. But we have a diferent take on the US and it's good and bad points than you do (which I have to say you seem to have adopted direclty from your father).

One thing I found puzzling is that you remember a conversation w/ your father from the 90's. It left me with the impression that either you don't talk with your father much at all, or you don't talk about anything serious. So that that kind of conversation sticks out in your memory from roughly a decade ago. That would be sad, if true.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Originally posted by rue:
"I am not going to appologize."

My opinion - All of these quotes here indicate to me you have little repect for the actual process of democracy - including the right to voice an opinion critical of the government.

If you are so fed up with the system why not move

nobody back then was pining away about foreign lands that had it better than us

people who were not satisfied with the Government

these blubbering idiots

try to sound intelligent by slamming the Government

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Originally posted by rue:
No, just expressing my opinion. Which is that , consistently, over time, you've expressed an idea that no one should ever criticize the government. Which seems very out of place from someone who claims to love democracy.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Originally posted by rue:
Then what do these mean ?

If you are so fed up with the system why not move

nobody back then was pining away about foreign lands that had it better than us

people who were not satisfied with the Government

these blubbering idiots

try to sound intelligent by slamming the Government


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Please elucidate.

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Originally posted by rue:
I give partial quotes in the interest of saving space - that are still able to point to the particular quote and highlight the particular phrase or idea that caught my attention. I COULD simply copy/past all of your posts, but that would be stupid.

So I take it you'd rather dance defensively than discuss. S'OK. I get it.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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If you are so fed up with the system why not move

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Just a bunch of doom and gloom with no mention of any supreme court or any lower court orders.

Aside from being untrue as SignyM pointed out, the question to this is - so what ? If they were cheerful cockeyed optimists for whom which nothing was ever wrong would you feel so compelled to minimize their opinions ? Probably not, for reason given below.

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If you are so fed up with the system why not move to a Country which better suits your needs?

If people complain about and criticize 'the system' why would that be your first response ? B/c in the end it does come down to - American, love it or leave it. Which is not an expression of a democratic ideal.

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The primary differences here are that nobody back then was pining away about foreign lands that had it better than us, and the people who were not satisfied with the Government had other ideas for change.

There are several problems with this post. The first is that you're saying that people who are making comparisons (which even US News and World Report acknowledges are valid - google "How They Do It Better") are pining for foreign countries. Way to go mischaracterizing what people are saying ! And you complain about a question mark ... The other thing you seem to be saying is - if you're not ready for armed revolt, STFU. Again, certainly not in the spirit of democracy where people are supposed to be able to discuss their political opinions.

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... I think we all know how good we actually have it here in the United States, and I think these blubbering idiots ... who try to sound intelligent by slamming the Government, know that real happiness can only be found at home, and it has nothing to do with our Government.

There are multiple problems here as well. Do we all really know how good we have it here in the US ? And even if we did, does that mean there's no room for improvement ? Does just criticizing the government qualify people as 'blubbering idiots' ? That certainly doesn't seem very democratic. Do we all - like Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz - have to find happiness in our own back yards no matter what the government does ? That would have disqualified your father from leaving Hungary, b/c - according to you - his happiness should have been in his own back yard irrespective of the government.

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It is great that you wish to take this country back to its roots based on freedom, but to what avail? Are you willing to take up arms?

Here's that theme again ... if you aren't ready to violently overthrow the government you should STFU.

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... I think that the author of this post complained like he did in a totally non-relevant medium like this to draw out these types of remarks, as did many of the following posters, so they were getting in my opinion what they wanted. Non-relevant medium

- RWE in a discussion board where people discuss ??? If this is a non-relevant medium, what, in your opinion is the appropriate medium for political discussion in a democracy ?

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2001

January

Presidential directive delays indefinitely the scheduled release of presidential documents (authorized by the Presidential Records Act of 1978) pertaining to the Reagan-Bush administration. Link

Bush and Cheney begin process of radically broadening scope of documents and information which can be deemed classified. Link

February

The National Security Agency (NSA) sets up Project Groundbreaker, a domestic call monitoring program infrastructure. Link

Spring

Bush administration order authorizes NSA monitoring of domestic phone and internet traffic. Link

May

US Supreme Court rules that medical necessity is not a permissible defense against federal marijuana statutes. Link

September

In immediate aftermath of 9-11 terror attacks, Department of Justice authorizes detention without charge for any terror suspects. Over one thousand suspects are brought into detention over the next several months. Link (pdf)

October

Attorney General John Ashcroft announces change in Department of Justice (DOJ) policy. According to the new policy DOJ will impose far more stringent criteria for the granting of Freedom of Information Act requests. Link

September-October

NSA launches massive new database of information on US phone calls. Link

October

The USA Patriot Act becomes law. Among other things the law: makes it a crime for anyone to contribute money or material support for any group on the State Department’s Terror Watch List, allows the FBI to monitor and tape conversations between attorneys and clients, allows the FBI to order librarians to turn over information about patron’s reading habits, allows the government to conduct surveillance on internet and email use of US citizens without notice. The act also calls for expanded use of National Security Letters (NSLs), which allow the FBI to search telephone, email and financial records of US citizens without a court order, exempts the government from needing to reveal how evidence against suspected terrorists was obtained and authorizes indefinite detention of immigrants at the discretion of law enforcement and immigration authorities.

NJ Superior court judge and civil liberties scholar Anthony Napolitano, author of A Nation of Sheep, has described the law’s assault on first and fourth amendment principles as follows, “The Patriot Act’s two most principle constitutional errors are an assault on the Fourth Amendment, and on the First. It permits federal agents to write their own search warrants [under the name “national security letters”] with no judge having examined evidence and agreed that it’s likely that the person or thing the government wants to search will reveal evidence of a crime… Not only that, but the Patriot Act makes it a felony for the recipient of a self-written search warrant to reveal it to anyone. The Patriot Act allows [agents] to serve self-written search warrants on financial institutions, and the Intelligence Authorization Act of 2004 in Orwellian language defines that to include in addition to banks, also delis, bodegas, restaurants, hotels, doctors' offices, lawyers’ offices, telecoms, HMOs, hospitals, casinos, jewelry dealers, automobile dealers, boat dealers, and that great financial institution to which we all would repose our fortunes, the post office. Link 1 | Link 2

November

Executive order limits release of presidential documents. The order gives incumbent presidents the right to veto requests to open any past presidential records and supercedes the congressionally passed law of 1978 mandating release of all presidential records not explicitly deemed classified. Link

2002

Winter

FBI and Department of Defense (DOD), forbidden by law from compiling databases on US citizens, begin contracting with private database firm ChoicePoint to collect, store, search and maintain data. Link

Spring

Secret executive order issued authorizing NSA to wiretap the phones and read emails of US citizens. Link

Spring

Transportation Security Adminstration (TSA) acknowledges it has created both a “No Fly” and a separate “Watch” list of US travelers. Link

May

Department of Justice authorizes the FBI to monitor political and religious groups. The new rules permit the FBI to broadly search or monitor the internet for evidence of criminal activity without having any tips or leads that a specific criminal act has been committed. Link

June

Supreme Court upholds the right of school administrators to conduct mandatory drug testing of students without probable cause. Link

November

Homeland Security Act of 2002 establishes separate Department of Homeland Security. Among other things the department will federally coordinate for the first time all local and state law enforcement nationwide and run a Directorate of Information and Analysis with authority to compile comprehensive data on US citizens using public and commercial records including credit card, phone, bank, and travel. The department also will be exempt form Freedom of Information Act disclosure requirements. The Homeland Security department’s jurisdiction has been widely criticized for being nebulously defined and has extended beyond terrorism into areas including immigration, pornography and drug enforcement. Link 1 | Link 2

2003

February

Draft of Domestic Security Enhancement Act (aka Patriot Act 2), a secret document prepared by the Department of Justice is leaked by the Center for Public Integrity. Provisions of the February 7th draft version included:

Removal of court-ordered prohibitions against police agencies spying on domestic groups.

The FBI would be granted powers to conduct searches and surveillance based on intelligence gathered in foreign countries without first obtaining a court order.

Creation of a DNA database of suspected terrorists.

Prohibition of any public disclosure of the names of alleged terrorists including those who have been arrested.

Exemptions from civil liability for people and businesses who voluntarily turn private information over to the government.

Criminalization of the use of encryption to conceal incriminating communications.

Automatic denial of bail for persons accused of terrorism-related crimes, reversing the ordinary common law burden of proof principle. All alleged terrorists would be required to demonstrate why they should be released on bail rather than the government being required to demonstrate why they should be held.

Expansion of the list of crimes eligible for the death penalty.

The United States Environmental Protection Agency would be prevented from releasing "worst case scenario" information to the public about chemical plants.

United States citizens whom the government finds to be either members of, or providing material support to, terrorist groups could have their US citizenship revoked and be deported to foreign countries.

Although the bill itself has never (yet) been advanced in congress due to public exposure, some of its provisions have become law as parts of other bills. For example The Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2004 grants the FBI unprecedented power to obtain records from financial institutions without requiring permission from a judge. Under the law, the FBI does not need to seek a court order to access such records, nor does it need to prove just cause. Link 1 | Link 2

March

Executive order issued which radically tightens the declassification process of classified government documents, as well as making it far easier for government agencies to make and keep information classified. The order delayed by three years the release of declassified government documents dating from 1978 or earlier. It also allowed the government to treat all material sent to American officials from foreign governments -- no matter how routine -- as subject to classification, and expanded the ability of Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) to shield documents from declassification. Finally it gave the vice president the power to classify information. Link 1 | Link 2

March

In a ruling seen as a victory for the concentration of ownership of intellectual property and an erosion of the public domain, the Supreme Court in Eldred v. Ashcroft held that a 20-year extension of the copyright period (from 50 years after the death of the author to 70 years) called for by the Sonny Bono copyright Extension not violate either the Copyright Clause or the First Amendment. Link

April

In Demore v. Kim, the Supreme Court ruled that even permanent residents could be subject to mandatory detention when facing deportation based on a prior criminal conviction, without any right to an individualized hearing to determine whether they were dangerous or a flight risk. Link

Fall

The FBI changes its traditional policy of destroying all data and documents collected on innocent citizens in the course of criminal investigations. This information would, according to the bureau, now be permanently stored. Two years later in late 2005 Executive Order 13388, expanded access to those files for "state, local and tribal" governments and for "appropriate private sector entities," which are not defined. Link 1 | Link 2

Fall

As authorized by the Patriot Act, the FBI expands the practice of national security letters. NSLs, originally introduced in the 1970s for espionage and terrorism investigations, enabled the FBI to review in secret the customer records of suspected foreign agents. This was extended by the Patriot Act to include permitting clandestine scrutiny of all U.S. residents and visitors whether suspected of terrorism or not. Link

2004

January

The FBI begins keeping a database of US citizens based on information obtained via NSLs. Link

Spring

John Ashcroft invokes State Secrets privilege to forbid former FBI translator Sibel Edmunds from testifying in a case brought by families of victims of the 9-11 attacks. Litigation by 9-11 families is subsequently halted. Link 1 | Link 2

June

Supreme Court upholds Nevada state law allowing police to arrest suspects who refuse to provide identification based on police discretion of “reasonable suspicion.” Link

2005

January

Supreme court rules that police do not need to have probable cause to have drug sniffing dogs examine cars stopped for routine traffic violations. Link 1 | Link 2

June

Supreme Court rules that the federal government can prosecute medical marijuana users even in states which have laws permitting medical marijuana. Link

Summer

The Patriot Act, due to expire at the end of 2005, is reauthorized by Congress. Link

Winter 2005

Senate blocks reauthorization of certain clauses in Patriot Act. Link

2006

March

Senate passes amended version of Patriot Act, reauthorization, with three basic changes from the original including: recipients of secret court orders to turn over sensitive information on individuals linked to terrorism investigations are not allowed to disclose those orders but can challenge the gag order after a year, libraries would not be required to turn over information without the approval of a judge, recipients of an FBI "national security letter" -- an investigator's demand for access to personal or business information -- would not have to tell the FBI if they consult a lawyer. New bill also said to extend Congressional oversight over executive department usage guidelines. Shortly after bill is signed George Bush declares oversight rules are not binding. Link 1 | Link 2

June

Supreme court rules that evidence obtained in violation of the “knock and announce” rules can still be permitted in court. Link

September

US Congress and Senate approve the Military Commissions Act, which authorizes torture and strips non- US citizen detainees suspected of terrorist ties of the right of habeas corpus (which includes formal charges, counsel and hearings). It also empowers US presidents at their discretion to declare US citizens as enemy combatants and subject to detention without charge or due process. Link 1 | Link 2 | Link 3

October

John Warner Defense Authorization Act is passed. The act allows a president to declare a public emergency and station US military troops anywhere in America as well as take control of state based national guard units without consent of the governor or other local authorities. The law authorizes presidential deployment of US troops to round-up and detain “potential terrorists”, “illegal aliens” and “disorderly” citizenry. Link 1 | Link 2

2007

May

National Security Presidential Directive 51 (NSPD-51) establishes a new post-disaster plan (with disaster defined as any incident, natural or man-made, resulting in extraordinary mass casualties, damage or disruption) which places the president in charge of all three branches of government. The directive overrides the National Emergencies Act which gives Congress power to determine the duration of a national emergency. Link 1 | Link 2

June

In “Bong Hits for Jesus” case Supreme court rules that student free speech rights do not extend to promotion of drug use. Link

July

Executive Order 13438: "Blocking Property of Certain Persons Who Threaten Stabilization Efforts in Iraq, issued. The order asserts the government’s power to confiscate the property “of persons determined to have committed, or to pose a significant risk of committing, an act or acts of violence that have the purpose or effect of threatening the peace or stability of Iraq or the Government of Iraq or undermining efforts to promote economic reconstruction and political reform in Iraq or to provide humanitarian assistance to the Iraqi people."

October

The Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Act passes the House of Representatives 400 to 6 (to be voted on in the Senate in 2008). The act proposes the establishment of a commission composed of members of the House and Senate, Homeland Security and others, to "examine and report upon the facts and causes of violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence in the United States” and specifically the role of the internet in fostering and disseminating extremism. According to the bill the term `violent radicalization' means the process of adopting or promoting an extremist belief system for the purpose of facilitating ideologically based violence to advance political, religious, or social change, while the term 'ideologically-based violence' means the use, planned use, or threatened use of force or violence by a group or individual to promote the group or individual's political, religious, or social beliefs.”

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Originally posted by rallem:
I think that if there is something taken out of the quote before the text you provide, that you are supposed to give three periods before to show there was text before your quote, “…quote,” or three periods after for text afterwards, “Quote…” or if anything is different about the quote you should use a [sic] to show that.

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January

Presidential directive delays indefinitely the scheduled release of presidential documents (authorized by the Presidential Records Act of 1978) pertaining to the Reagan-Bush administration. Link

Bush and Cheney begin process of radically broadening scope of documents and information which can be deemed classified. Link

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February

The National Security Agency (NSA) sets up Project Groundbreaker, a domestic call monitoring program infrastructure. Link

Spring

Bush administration order authorizes NSA monitoring of domestic phone and internet traffic. Link

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May

US Supreme Court rules that medical necessity is not a permissible defense against federal marijuana statutes. Link

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