For those that say it doesn't happen. by Fremdfirma

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

For those that say it doesn't happen.

POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Friday, January 4, 2008 12:55
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Friday, December 28, 2007 8:34 PM

This just hit my desk a couple hours ago, and it's not very nice.

Fake cops targeted in raids
Weapons, police badges seized
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071208/NEWS01/712080
331/1003

Fake cops targeted in raids
Weapons, police badges seized
December 8, 2007

BY BEN SCHMITT

FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

Police officers kicked down doors in Detroit and Macomb and Oakland counties Friday, seizing a cache of weapons, police badges and bulletproof vests in an investigation involving at least two men posing as cops while robbing citizens.

The raids by a multi-jurisdictional task force occurred at five houses in Detroit, Madison Heights, Warren, Sterling Heights and Center Line. In all, police seized 14 weapons -- including a submachine gun, AK47s and sniper rifles -- ammunition, silencers, gunpowder, grenades, two Ford Crown Victoria sedans and patches of the Drug Enforcement Administration, the Bureau of Tobacco, Alcohol, Firearms and Explosives, and U.S. Customs.

Detroit Police Chief Ella Bully-Cummings said the raids stemmed from an arrest last month of someone who stole a police assault rifle, radio and bulletproof vest from a Wayne County sheriff's deputy.

She said some of the seized equipment displayed Friday belongs to officers, and there is more to be retrieved.

While she would not detail how the equipment was stolen, a police official close to the investigation said some of it was taken from officers' homes and cars.

"What the public needs to know is that we have determined that currently there are two white males conducting a rash or spree over the past year in Wayne, Macomb and Oakland counties," the chief said. "They are targeting many people. ... It is believed they are conducting traffic stops in what are considered to be police-looking Crown Vics, using stolen police equipment."

Those men have not been arrested. She said there could be more than two people involved. Besides traffic stops, police are investigating home invasions and armed robberies by men saying they are cops.

"We know that we're having some robberies that are being conducted as a result of these people identifying themselves as police officers and they're not," Bully-Cummings said.

She said Detroit officers in marked cars will pull over when they see traffic stops by unmarked or semi-marked vehicles to make sure they belong to real officers.

Anyone who may have fallen victim to the police impersonators is asked to call the task force at 313-596-2300.

Contact BEN SCHMITT at 313-223-4296 or bcschmitt@freepress.com.

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Friday, December 28, 2007 8:40 PM

FREMDFIRMA

So folks, tell me, how exactly, am I supposed to determine whether it's one of THESE assholes, or real cops with the wrong address, when the door comes crashing in at 3am in the morning ?

To be honest, at that point, how MUCH difference between em is there, really ?

From my sources, this isn't the only incident, and there's been a second, unrelated bust over the holiday season along the same lines.

Yet one more reason why ALL warrants should be serviced by a uniformed officer who has the decency to knock first.

-F

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Friday, December 28, 2007 9:11 PM

BADKARMA00

Just a point of curiosity here, and not an attempt to 'start something', okay?
Would you want officers to have to 'knock' when serving a warrant on a crack house where there are known armed criminals behind the door?
When serving a warrant, especially on a possibly violent offender, standing at the front door, knocking politely, is an excellent way to get killed. I speak from some experience on that, (though obviously I'm not the one killed).
I do agree that things like this are troubling. Not arguing that.

Bad_karma

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Friday, December 28, 2007 9:39 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Cause that's a risk they're paid to take.

Damn sure they milk public sympathy enough for it when the budget comes around.

The whole concept of no-knocks and dynamic entries, especially given the evidence, is reducing the risk by people paid to assume it, by placing more of it on us ordinary civvies who are neither paid for it, nor did we agree to assume it.

Essentially saying "well, even though I signed up for this knowing the risks, my life is worth more than yours."

I find that kind of an insult, myself.

Sure, there MAY well be cases where a dynamic entry might be warranted, but in such a situation that should be considered only when the target is under direct observation and the threat to uninvolved citizens is negligable, and truthfully, that's damn rare.

Textbook case in point was sending a SWAT unit for dynamic entry on some poor sod for supposedly running an office betting pool ?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/23/AR2006
032301117.html
Who is, btw, now dead because of it.

If that was you or I or any of us ordinary folks who did that, what do you think the courts would have done to us ?

In fact, I think it's WORSE, and should be penalized more harshly, when a professional paid to do this work botches it so horribly.

Look, they accept the risk with the job, to push it off on us citizens is irresponsible, unprofessional, and cowardly - and to do that, THEN milk it for all it's worth in the court of public opinion kinda churns my stomach, is all.

Tactical for a high threat (judged by an independant CIVILIAN review board drawn from the neighborhood, since police can't seem to responsibly make that decision as shown above) should be a uniform up front, armored up and ready to take immediate cover and/or relay tactical data to a team waiting in readiness outside - it doesn't delay the process noteably and can effectively prevent tragedy.

If they don't like the necessary risks to enforce the law, or see the rights and safety of us citizens as a barrier to doing the job...

Might I suggest they seek new career paths ?

Just sayin...

-F
EDIT: and by shifting of risk I mean that more citizens die via no-knock then otherwise would have happened.
http://www.theagitator.com/2006/11/25/context-for-kathryn-johnston/
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

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Friday, December 28, 2007 11:04 PM

SUCCATASH

We shouldn't lose our freedom to make cops safe. Cops must risk danger to keep us free.

Pay them more, and make 'em knock, I say.

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Friday, December 28, 2007 11:42 PM

BADKARMA00

You know, people with your attitude, ( and that's not meant as a slur, simply talking about your view of things ) ignore the fact that many people in public service are there because they want to be of service.
True, not all of them, and there are bad apples in every cart. EVERY cart.
I wish the world was as simple as you want it to be, Frem, I really do. It sounds like a great place to live.
It's so easy, I guess, to simply say "get another job". Someday, we'll wonder where the good guys got off to, when your vision of what america already is comes to pass. When no one wants to 'take the risk' as you put it. At least no one we'd really want in the job.
I hope things get better where you live. It sounds like it's really harsh there right now. Happy New Year.

Bad_karma

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Saturday, December 29, 2007 3:48 AM

FREMDFIRMA

BK, you mistake my motives a bit here, I think, simply because of my political position.. understandable, but inaccurate.

Why I hate these no-knock rates is because people die, and not just civvies, but when they kick in the wrong door at some ungodly hour of the morning and a homeowner opens up on them, cops die too - not to mention two incidents using the (now thankfully shitcanned) dual entry tactic, cops have shot and killed each other.

Putting an armored-up uniform on point, as I said involves minimal risk, mininal time lag if you have the go-team within range and ready - perhaps in low profile around the corner of the house so it doesn't panic the homeowner if it's a wrong address, or tip off the suspect if it's not.

Charging into an unknown situation without a floorplan, no idea of the numbers/armament of your opponents, potential civvies, kids, pets that might be in the crossfire... it's just a bad, bad idea, and should be considered only as a last resort.

But when you give some folks a hammer, every problem starts lookin like a nail to them, and we have a pyschological corruption at the core of the police-public dynamic that really, desperately, needs to be addressed and I come down brutally hard for that reason, folks are dying or getting hurt over this stupidity in unaccepable numbers.

It's kind of the same misunderstanding over tasers, if they classed them as less-lethal, instead of non-lethal, and placed them properly within the force continuum - they could SAVE lives that would otherwise require the firing of the service weapon, AND because the next step up would be the service weapon, an officer would have substantially better chance of legally justifying his use of the device in court.

I may dislike them intensely and passionately, and personally take issue with the very concept, which is a bias I am quite up front and open about... but what I am kicking their ass for is doing a halfass job that endangers both them and the citizens they're supposed to be protecting.

A homeowner should not HAVE to worry about whether it's the cops or some perps bashing in his door at 3am - he should legally be able, and allowed to assume perps, and if he feels his life and safety are endangered enough to warrant it, should not, should NEVER, be penalized for self-defense.

One of the things that sets my teeth on edge the worst is that if an officer kills someone by accident, mistaken identity or misperception of threat in one of these, they get a slap on the wrist, maybe a paid vacation, or even (in one case) a medal...

But woe unto the homeowner who fires on a home invader only to find out it's a cop, IF they survive, even if they do everything right, they will still face capital murder charges.

How is this equal protection under the law ?
What message does that send to the community ?

That's one reason I think all police use of force should be scrutinized by an independant review board drawn from the neighborhood itself, instead of the good ole boys in blue club - let the people who are paying for it decide whether they are being protected, or assaulted.

Which leads us back to the pyschological core corruption that is the problem, any reform, no matter how necessary, rather than being seen as a welcome aid to better policing and a way to keep the bad apples out - is immediately attacked, stonewalled, and opposed rabidly by police and all their support groups like the FOP and Police Unions... you'd think they'd want the bad apples out the worst, but they cover and protect their own, right or wrong, and over time that has become a serious problem.

What angers and outrages me the most is how they have somehow become a privledged class, dispensing their justice to us peons with little regard for their intended purpose - someone needs to point out to these yahoos that this ain't Mega-City, and they ain't Judge Dredd.

Good heavens, I could tell ya horror stories about what us cabbies do to drivers caught stoned or drunk on the job, or behaving in a fashion dangerous to their passengers or other motorists.
(With the exception of Metrocars, who's abysmal reputation is well-deserved)
If us cabbies can keep our own house clean, why can't the police ?

Is it because they are a monopoly ?

And I have to make a 1600 mile round trip shortly, so I don't have time to address training, which we really oughta put more time, money and resources into given the job we're expecting them to do, yanno ?

I may dislike em, but I can tolerate em, if only they would stop acting like La Cosa Nostra and DO THE JOB RIGHT.

I don't think that's a lot to ask, really.

-F

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Saturday, December 29, 2007 5:16 AM

KIRKULES

Frem, this is one of those rare times that I agree with you 100%. How long are we going to have to continue hear about innocent people killed because of "no-knock" warrants. I blame the dumb ass judges that hand these warrants out even more than I blame the police. It's their job to protect us from overzealous police but instead they fall into the mindset of the police and hand out warrants without regard for public safety. How about a little accountability, charging a judge or cop with negligent homicide just once would cure this problem for all time. Thanks for your eloquence on the subject, I'm wit u man on this one.

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Saturday, December 29, 2007 7:08 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I called the police because of an ongoing robbery in my home. Hell, in the dark the responding police almost shot me. Can you imagine the confusion during a no-knock?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Saturday, December 29, 2007 7:12 AM

BADKARMA00

I'm glad you posted this Frem. I agree with you about the no-knock in this case, I really do. I thought that you were against it, period. There is a huge difference between entering a known gang den, and entering a home. No argument from me on that.
ANd, I have done both. And used different tactics both times. I'm a Republican, by the way, though not blindly so. I don't support something just because it's a "Republican" idea, or someone because they claim to be a Republican.
It's good to have open discourse, and discuss issues like this, I believe. There is, I always believe, a solid middle ground we can all be happy with.
And I agree completely that a homeowner should and DOES have the right to defend themselves, and their home. REgardless.
Here in Tennessee, for instance, a citizen has the right, under the law, to resist an illegal arrest with force equal to that being used to effect that illegal arrest. I think it's one of the best laws our at times clueless legislature has ever enacted.
Also, I have to remind myself that I live in a rural area, where everyone knows everyone else. I know all the cops by sight, and so does most everyone else. Makes things a lot easier for us than for some of you who live in much larger places, especially up north.
I hope you have a safe trip, and a Happy New Year.

Bad_karma

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Friday, January 4, 2008 12:55 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Or 5:40am... as the case may be.

One killed, one hurt in Detroit home invasion
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080104/UPDATE/8010
40415/1409/METRO

Both shot, on their knees, at the back of the head, execution style, long before the cops got there.

They've also started on the better neighborhoods, as of late.

So, show of hands - who here thinks being unarmed was a smart, safe decision for these people ?

Just askin...

-F

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