Aid for Israel by AnthonyT

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Me, for one. When people point to our generous foreign aid program they fail to understand that HALF of our so-called foreign aid goes to Israel.

There are times when foreign aid is a good thing: To get developing nations "over the hump" (example the Marshall Plan), respond to natural disasters (tsunami, drought, earthquake, plague) and as one-time bribes to get rogue leaders out of the picture. But our current "foreign aid" is either propping up dictatorships, paying for friendships, or being recycled directly back to USA corporations w/o making so much as a pit-stop in the donee nation. Shameful, wasteful, and corrupt. Given all that- I'd rather send no money at all. Not just to Israel, but anywhere.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, January 11, 2008 4:43 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Me three, with Signy's caveats as well.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, January 11, 2008 5:11 PM

FREDGIBLET

Well I disagree with your assessment for a start. The arguments about Israels possible collapse would hold weight for me if they were based off of economic factors (i.e. without U.S. aid Israel wouldn't be able to afford to feed its citizens), however since I'm pretty sure the arguments are based off of military factors I don't really agree with you.

There is of course a school of thought that we shouldn't get involved in the military issues of any other countries, personally I disagree with the complete isolationism that such opinions are based on, I agree that most of the things happening in the world are not our concern but I do believe that we should stand up for our allies (and I'm not convinced that Israel is friends with us just because of our aid).

You make the statement "If they can't stand on their own two feet by now, what does it tell us about them?", the answer is simple, it tells us that they are surrounded by enemies that all have decent-sized armies and who all hate Israel. We have the luxury of having neighbors that don't hate us and who have comparatively tiny militaries, Israel is no worse off than most countries in most parts of the world would be if all their neighbors conspired to attack them. Could Germany stand against all of western Europe? Could Iran have stood against the combined armies of their neighbors before we destroyed two of them?

I do agree with the assertion that if we withdrew aid that Israel would likely settle their differences more quickly though I disagree with the implication that Israel is impeded by their relationship with the U.S., or at least I disagree that the impediment is direct. Rather than serving as an obstacle to the ability of Israel to settle with their neighbors I think that the U.S. serves as a backup plan for them, we will bail them out if they run into problems so they see no real reason to avoid those problems.

All that being said I find myself in general agreement with Sig, I think that we should be using our foreign aid much more judiciously then we currently are. I do think that if we started to back off on Israels foreign aid that they would end up being better off for it, since they would be forced to actually come to terms with their neighbors.

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Friday, January 11, 2008 5:34 PM

MALBADINLATIN

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:Are there any who share my desire to end aid to Israel?

33 Billion dollars a year is a drop in the bucket to our economy yet it helps the Isrealis a great deal.

We don't have to worry about our support of Isreal pissing off the arabs. The arabs who want to do us in have gone way beyond being mad at us for supporting them, and graduated up to full on hatred of us for just who we are.

No real reason to stop comes to mind unless you don't like Jews and are in denial of that.

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Friday, January 11, 2008 6:16 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Cut it, entire.

What rooks me the worst is when that foreign aid cash is rerouted into american politicians via AIPAC and other sham fronts to bend our politicians to the whim of a foreign county, in a perverse cycle of them throwing the aid in order to get a kickback cut of the dough.

Any other country interfered with our election process and got repeatedly caught committing sabotage and espionage against us, as often as they do... we'd be at war with by now.

It also doesn't help that we've in essence financed a regime as brutal in it's treatment of palestine as germany was to poland, common sense, that's pissin a lotta folks off.

That's their business, how they wanna do things, but WE might take lesson from the example that the more brutal the repression, the worse the violence gets... before it gets that bad here.

By all means, it's their country and they can run it as they please but NOT ON MY DIME.

And sure as hell I don't see the logic of directly financing a country that backstabs us and our interests at every opportunity.

Go ask the DEA where the primary source of Ecstacy flooding the streets tracks back to, go on, ask... and while yer at it ask around about Comverse Infosystems, Amdocs, and blown busts, too.

I don't hold with flaming an entire class of people cause of the bullshit pulled by their leadership, nor do I hold with the idea of some great grand conspiracy - but the crap they HAVE pulled, and continue to pull, fully justifies cutting them off completely.

And right now, WE need that money more than they do - I am not wholly against Foreign Aid, per se, but dammit not at the expense of our own people and infrastructure, both of which are in pretty damn rough shape by now.

Take care of US, OUR needs, OUR people, FIRST, curse it.

Might not be a popular point of view, that, but it's common freakin sense, to me.

-Frem

PS, Yo Anthony, it appears I am not the only one who has to go back and cut a bunch of space out of the end of my posts sometimes... any idea WHY this thing does that ?

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Friday, January 11, 2008 6:30 PM

I think I agree with Fred on this. If we’re talking about a country that couldn’t support itself economically, then I would say that, except for humanitarian aide, they need to adjust their economy to be more self-sustaining. But Israel actually does pretty good economically - better typically then other regional nations, so Israel actually is a quite viable. The problem is that, as Fred pointed out, they are surrounded by enemies already have repeated tried to destroy Israel and most certainly would again were it not for US support. So by supporting Israel we are not propping up an unsustainable nation, but defending an ally from certain invasion by religious and ideologically driven hatred.

As far as preferring allies like Canada and the UK, well I guess I would have to give that a big “Duh.” It’s always easier to support allies that don‘t need our help, but does that mean we abandon our allies that do? I’m not sure I like that approach to foreign policy.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, January 11, 2008 6:30 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:Are there any who share my desire to end aid to Israel?
33 Billion dollars a year is a drop in the bucket to our economy yet it helps the Isrealis a great deal.

We don't have to worry about our support of Isreal pissing off the arabs. The arabs who want to do us in have gone way beyond being mad at us for supporting them, and graduated up to full on hatred of us for just who we are.

No real reason to stop comes to mind unless you don't like Jews and are in denial of that.

Hello,

It seems that whenever the idea of stopping aid to Israel comes up, someone suggests that stopping aid to Israel = Hating Jews. For the record, this is an emotional lever used to avoid discussing the issue. If you don't want to argue the topic, then don't. But please discontinue the use of dishonest tactics.

As for the remainder of what you said: There seems to me a fallacy in your argument. That because we have sent billions in the past we should always send billions, and that billions are inconsequential sums of money.

Neither of those arguments makes any sense to me. I don't think you should enforce bad decisions indefinitely, and I don't think billions of dollars are drops in any bucket. This is why I become enraged whenever billions are appropriated for wars I don't agree with.

And now on to other arguments...

There are others who argue that without our military support, Israel would be overrun by her enemies. In fact, I don't think this is the case.

During the Six Day War, Israel defeated her enemies Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. That was during a time when the sophistication of her forces was in parity with her opponents. Israel now has a military sophistication far exceeding her likely opponents.

Further, if Israel maintains its alliances, they can always count on the threat of mutual defense.

Why, then, is continued spending necessary to prop up this nation?

Incidentally, I abhor aid to most of the countries that we send it to. Israel frequently comes up simply because they are one of our longest beneficiaries. I'd like to get them off the bottle.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, January 11, 2008 6:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
There are others who argue that without our military support, Israel would be overrun by her enemies. In fact, I don't think this is the case.

While anything’s possible, historically, Israel has handed the collective assess of combined nations that either did invade it’s borders or were preparing too. However, I don’t think that’s any more desirable and should be prevented, if possible.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Further, if Israel maintains its alliances, they can always count on the threat of mutual defense.

Why, then, is continued spending necessary to prop up this nation?

Part of the reason is that Israel and the US have close partnership in advanced defense research. A great deal of US defense technology has either come from Israeli research or has been aided by it.

And for the record, I think that you can support cutting aid to Israel and not be anti-Semitic.

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Friday, January 11, 2008 7:08 PM

LEADB

I'd say phase it out over 10 years.

If there some sort of meaningful exchange of military hardware / intellectual property, by all means pay for that.

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Friday, January 11, 2008 11:11 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
It’s always easier to support allies that don‘t need our help, but does that mean we abandon our allies that do? I’m not sure I like that approach to foreign policy.

Oh, Israel is our ally? Really? so- What have they done for us lately? Or even in the past 60 years?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Saturday, January 12, 2008 1:35 AM

BADKARMA00

I tend to think that Israel is our ally, though I also think they will always do what's best for them, which, you know, they'd be stupid if they didn't.

Israel does a lot of dirty work, as well. Politically they aren't nearly so squeamish as we often seem to be, and, wonder of wonders, they tend to be able to keep a secret.

as to the money we give them? I'm of two minds about that. On the one hand, they are the tiny country surrounded by people who want them destroyed. Obliterated. As such, I tend to think we should help them. It's always been American policy, at least in modern times, to support democratic governments. Israel is one.

But the amount of money? There I have to scratch my head. I don't think they need so much of our money, for sure. Of course, I don't think the UN needs it either. So what do I know? lol

As far as what they've done? We'll likely never know, since, as I said, they seem to be able to keep a secret. But when Iran's nuclear program get's destroyed, I'd be willing to bet there will be an Israeli to thank for it.

Whether that's a good or bad thing? I honestly don't know.

Bad_karma
Grand High President for Life, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Saturday, January 12, 2008 1:39 AM

BADKARMA00

I would add that I don't see where cutting funding, or at least reducing it, in support of Israel somehow makes us anti-semitic, ( I think that's the term ) I know several people who are active practicing the jewish faith, and that's their business.

To say that someone who doesn't like funneling BILLIONS of US taxpayer dollars into Israel is, for that reason, an anti-semite, is rather childish.

But again, that's just me.

Bad_karma

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Saturday, January 12, 2008 2:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
There are others who argue that without our military support, Israel would be overrun by her enemies. In fact, I don't think this is the case.

During the Six Day War, Israel defeated her enemies Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. That was during a time when the sophistication of her forces was in parity with her opponents. Israel now has a military sophistication far exceeding her likely opponents.

I think it should be noted that prior to and during the Six Day War Israel recieved aid and Weapons from both the United States and Britain. Theres also accusations of direct military support from Britain and the United States, but I have no idea how accurate they are, they could be Egyptian propeganda.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, January 12, 2008 3:16 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
There are others who argue that without our military support, Israel would be overrun by her enemies. In fact, I don't think this is the case.

During the Six Day War, Israel defeated her enemies Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. That was during a time when the sophistication of her forces was in parity with her opponents. Israel now has a military sophistication far exceeding her likely opponents.
I think it should be noted that prior to and during the Six Day War Israel recieved aid and Weapons from both the United States and Britain. Theres also accusations of direct military support from Britain and the United States, but I have no idea how accurate they are, they could be Egyptian propeganda.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

Hello,

I don't give much credence to the idea that Israel was receiving direct military assistance from the US during the Six day war.

As far as I know, we only had one asset in the immediate vicinity during the conflict. It was an intelligence ship called the USS Liberty.

History tells us that the USS Liberty and the Israeli military were not exactly swimming in mutual admiration or assistance.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, January 12, 2008 3:55 AM

KIRKULES

U.S. aid to Israel is more like a subsidy for American defense contractors than foreign aid. Most of the money goes to Israel in the form of high tech weapons like F16 fighters and Tomahawk missiles.

The US has very few true friends in the world and we should do all we reasonably can to support them.

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Saturday, January 12, 2008 4:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I don't give much credence to the idea that Israel was receiving direct military assistance from the US during the Six day war.

As far as I know, we only had one asset in the immediate vicinity during the conflict. It was an intelligence ship called the USS Liberty.

History tells us that the USS Liberty and the Israeli military were not exactly swimming in mutual admiration or assistance.

I really agree, I mentioned it because it's something I heard, but sounds rather more likely to be Egyptian propaganda that the other Arab allies also parroted. Either way the US and Britain did supply Israel with aid during and before the conflict. In the case of the US this was a cold war decision, Israel being a counterpoint to Russian backed Syria, so I don't think we can really use the Six Day War as an example of Israel's ability to operate entirely alone in it's present environment.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, January 12, 2008 4:41 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
It seems that whenever the idea of stopping aid to Israel comes up, someone suggests that stopping aid to Israel = Hating Jews. For the record, this is an emotional lever used to avoid discussing the issue. If you don't want to argue the topic, then don't. But please discontinue the use of dishonest tactics.

Excellent point Anthony. Those kinds of arguments always infuriate me. What I've meant to say to you before and never have until this point is that I really admire the way you make your arguments in a completely non argumentative way... all the way down to the small but not unnoticed fact that you make a point to politely begin every one of your posts with a "Hello,"

I tip my hat to ya for that. I myself have read Dale Caranige's work, but I just don't live it like you do. You exude his message repeatedly and consistantly in every one of your posts. That's no small feat that I can only hope that I could accomplish some day. Perhaps I will be able to when I've grown a little older and wiser. If you've never read his work, it's all the more impressive that this is your routine.

All of that being said, I do agree that we should not be supporting Israel. Although undecided about religion and God myself, I do believe that I probably stand up for it (Christianity, anyhow) more than most people on this board, but believing in the necessity of separation of Church and State as the only means of having a true Democratic Republic, I can't say that there really is any reason to funnel billions of dollars a year to them. I speak with several very religious people who agree with many of my points of view but we would bash heads about this point. So far, truthfully, everything that is Israel has been since the beginning has been predicted in the Bible and I know some people who KNOW in their hearts and minds that America will never abandon Israel.

Personally, if it were up to me, I would offer our friends there asylum in our country and cut those that rejected it off completely. Maybe they would survive, maybe they wouldn't. Who's to say?

On a personal and (I feel) related note, my Grandmother who I think the world of allowed me to stay at her house for five or so years after I got laid off in 2001. Living was cheap and easy those five years and I leeched off of her generosity and enablement. Fortunately, a situation presented itself to me that I couldn't pass up and although I had to move 100 or so miles from all of my friends and family, I was able to re-start my life 3 years ago.

She currently has two of her own children (full-fledged adults who had made some bad choices in life) living with her now as well. I love them, but I don't see any hope for what's left of their futures. She's not going to live forever and I don't see how they could ever possibly survive on their own after having been enabled to almost do nothing in order to survive for so long. Her other child, my uncle who was a Veteran and who I loved as a brother, shot himself in the head 2 years ago.

Rest in peace my man. I hope you found in the afterlife whatever it was that you weren't able to find here.

Sometimes you have to kick the bird out of the nest in order to teach it how to fly.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, January 12, 2008 4:56 AM

The US did not supply Israel with arms during 1967 war. I'm doubt Britain did either. That war last a whole six days, and Israel won that war in the first day with airstrikes that destroyed Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq's airfields, given Israel air superiority. Even if the US wanted to support Israel with military aid, I'm not sure they could have done so in any significant way before that war ended. This is Arab propaganda. The Arabs have always hated the fact that they had their collective assess handed to them so many times by a bunch Jews, and the 1967 war was the most humiliating of all. Obviously, they are going to graps for any reason to say it didn’t happen.

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Saturday, January 12, 2008 5:05 AM

The six day war lasted six days? Really? No? Is that why they call it the six day war then?

The crises leading up to the six day war lasted a lot longer though, and Israel had been recieving US weapons since the early sixties. Specifically where I've heard about US and British material aid during the crisis period, which includes the six days of conflict, wasn't arab sources.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, January 12, 2008 5:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
The six day war lasted six days? Really? No? Is that why they call it the six day war then?

Yes it did, and yes it is. How about that citizen - you learned something. Good for you.

Also the principle weapon by which Israel won the Six-Day War in the first day, were fighterjets from France, not US arms.

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Saturday, January 12, 2008 5:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Yes it did, and yes it is. How about that citizen - you learned something. Good for you.

Hmm, and maybe one day your limited intellect could learn to grasp sarcasm eh

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, January 12, 2008 5:22 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Yes it did, and yes it is. How about that citizen - you learned something. Good for you.
Hmm, and maybe one day your limited intellect could learn to grasp sarcasm eh .

LOL... Even I got that one Finn.... and Cit is probably as close to a mortal enemy as I got.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, January 12, 2008 5:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Yes it did, and yes it is. How about that citizen - you learned something. Good for you.
Hmm, and maybe one day your limited intellect could learn to grasp sarcasm eh .

You mean like you! Wow, you get sarcasm so good!

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Saturday, January 12, 2008 5:27 AM

PIRATECAT

I love jews! So I support America's aid to Israel. Shoot we wipe the Egyptian's slate clean. The 73 war Golda said when Israel needed Richard Nixon, Richard Nixon was their for Israel. Israel won the first 2 wars with ahabs but they were knocked down pretty hard in the 3rd one. The airforce dropped in with everything they needed. The USS Liberty was a spy ship that got sunk because the jews didn't want the ahabs knowing that Israel was going to strike first in the six day war of 67. I don't even mine all the reality tv we send to Great Britain.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Saturday, January 12, 2008 5:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You mean like you! Wow, you get sarcasm so good!

I got you were trying to be sarcastic Finn, it's just it only really works if I meant what I said, which since I obviously didn't, just makes yourself look foolish; but carry on, if that's what you want I mean.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, January 12, 2008 7:24 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The US has very few true friends in the world and we should do all we reasonably can to support them.

A friend is someone that you can count on for mutual support, not a leech stuck permanently to your teat.

Israel has always followed Israel's interests, not ours. Once in a few decade our interests coincide, but mostly Israel just complicates our situation in the ME. We only support them because of their lobby in the US, which has us conflating our interests with theirs, and their fingers in our foreign policy. (Let me remind you again of the neocons: Wurmser, Feith, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld, several of whom have demonstrated ties to the Likud party, and their biggest supporter Lieberman who referred to Israel as "us".)

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Saturday, January 12, 2008 1:32 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Thanks everyone. And I appreciate it, Six. I'll have to check out that author's work.

It's true that we supplied Israel with weapons and equipment as well as cash prior to the Six day war. As Citizen pointed out, we did this to keep them in parity with their Soviet supplied enemies.

The days of parity have long passed, however. Israel is now technologically superior to their neighbors. They also have a much higher standard of training.

Let me put it this way: I wouldn't want our military to have to fight Israel.

Isn't it time, as someone said, to put the bird out of the nest? We can still be allies, trade intelligence, and have a mutual defense treaty. We can even maintain mutually beneficial joint development projects, like the one we entered into a while back to develop a point defense laser.

If there is any new information to put on the table, everyone feel free to do so. Or closing arguments, if not.

I appreciate everyone's positions on this, and I can sympathize with those who want to maintain aid, even though I haven't heard any logical arguments that would convince me to change my mind.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, January 12, 2008 3:27 PM

FREDGIBLET

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
It’s always easier to support allies that don‘t need our help, but does that mean we abandon our allies that do? I’m not sure I like that approach to foreign policy.
Oh, Israel is our ally? Really? so- What have they done for us lately? Or even in the past 60 years?

What have any of our allies done for us in the last 60 years? We are the 600-pound gorilla, we are the ones who others turn to for help, most of them can't provide us with anything that we couldn't have handled on our own.

But Israel did give us the Core 2 processor, reason enough to keep them around in itself.

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Saturday, January 12, 2008 5:32 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

And all for a mere $2.4 billion a year! Cheap at half the price!

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Saturday, January 12, 2008 6:22 PM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Also the principle weapon by which Israel won the Six-Day War in the first day, were fighterjets from France, not US arms.

I thought it was surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... their two weapons were fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Their *three* weapons were fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Their *four*...no... *Amongst* their weapons.... Amongst their weaponry...were such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

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Sunday, January 13, 2008 6:37 AM

GINOBIFFARONI

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

There are others who argue that without our military support, Israel would be overrun by her enemies. In fact, I don't think this is the case.

During the Six Day War, Israel defeated her enemies Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. That was during a time when the sophistication of her forces was in parity with her opponents. Israel now has a military sophistication far exceeding her likely opponents.

I have read in 1972 the Israeli airforce suffered losses of %185 of their aircraft, and without the transfer of American aircraft from Europe they would have lost the airwar at any rate.

Mind you I still say the aid the US provides actually destabilizes the area, Israel has broken as many treaty commitments as anyone, yet they suffer no penalty or reward for adhering to the treaty's they sign.

The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Sunday, January 13, 2008 7:57 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Mind you I still say the aid the US provides actually destabilizes the area, Israel has broken as many treaty commitments as anyone, yet they suffer no penalty or reward for adhering to the treaty's they sign.

They're about on-par with Saddam Hussein in terms of ignored UN resolutions and aggressive actions, and they're well more advanced in their current arsenal of WMD. And they treat their minority almost as badly. With allies like that, who needs enemies?

Quote:
During the period between 1967 and 2000, Iraq was the subject of 69 Security Council resolutions. By comparison, Israel, our closest "ally" in the Middle East, has been the subject of 138 resolutions. Not surprisingly, most of those resolutions call upon Israel to comply with basic principles of international law embodied by the UN Charter. Many of them condemn actions taken by Israel and call upon Israel on more than one occasion to comply with previous resolutions that Israel ignored and continues to ignore to this day.

www.mediamonitors.net/michaelsladah&suleimaniajlouni1.html

Of course, people who back Israel will continue to ignore these facts, just as they ignore the facts about President Bush. It's all about "us v them", and it doesn't seem to matter much what "we" do 'cause we're the "good guys".

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Sunday, January 13, 2008 10:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Also the principle weapon by which Israel won the Six-Day War in the first day, were fighterjets from France, not US arms.
I thought it was surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... their two weapons were fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Their *three* weapons were fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Their *four*...no... *Amongst* their weapons.... Amongst their weaponry...were such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

And also Mirage Jets.

(Though, I’m not sure about the fanatical devotion to the Pope thing.)

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, January 13, 2008 5:37 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
A friend is someone that you can count on for mutual support, not a leech stuck permanently to your teat.

THANK YOU.

Israel is a parasite that lives off guilt over her recent tragedies. That makes us all manner of co-dependent in all manner of dysfunctional ways.

Ally, my ass. Ask the survivors of the USS Liberty if Israel cares if our soldiers die.

Israel gets something like $600+ / capita from the USA. In context of its atrocious human rights record, that would be like our giving China $600 billion a year in aid. Since when did we start having "allies" that oppress entire nations as a matter of record?

Also, in case one didn't know, money is a positive reinforcer. That means, as long as you pay people to do something, they will keep doing it. We pay Israel to be at war--as long as we pay her, she'll keep being at war. She has no incentive to compromise, make deals, or otherwise play nice with the other kids.

Of course, if we let her loose now, she'll get lynched. It's a mess she's made; it's a mess we've made.

Did I say dysfunctional?

--------------------------
If a dog jumps in your lap, it is because he is fond of you; but if a cat does the same thing, it is because your lap is warmer.
--Alfred North Whitehead (1861 - 1947)

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Monday, January 14, 2008 4:34 AM

JONGSSTRAW

America should not give any taxpayer money to any country, period.

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Monday, January 14, 2008 5:05 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Lets finally be honest....

Israel was set up after WW2 as a place to drop the Jews, as there was no place in Europe that wanted them.

We twisted arms and laws to take the land from the Palestinians in order to do this.

We bullied our way onto their land, and put people who shouldnt have been there on it.

War broke out.

We gave aid to Israel to fight. We sent them all the weapons they could use. Including a nuke.

We still do this.

We also give most of our foreign aid budget to them.

The Jews kill Palestinians on a regular basis.

Using the cover of securing peace and fighting terrorism, they randomnly kill citizens.

The so-called Christians in this country want Israel to exist to fullfill what they consider prophesy.

The Jews in this country consider it a moral obligation to support Israel by any means.

Including propaganda.

The Jews learned a lot from the Nazis. Including, but not limited to:

Propaganda,
Manipulation,
Controlling the media,
Gaining support (through money) at the higher levels,
Using religion to benefit themselves,
Killing anyone who stands in their way,
Using political correctness to control speech.

We let it happen. Its our fault. We created this and then continue to feed it.

I say we cut off all foreign aid to everyone, for 2 years. Just 2 years. Let the chips fall where they may.

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Monday, January 14, 2008 5:53 AM

Now this reeks of anti-Semitism.

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Monday, January 14, 2008 6:04 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ahh..."Anti-semitism"...the catchall propaganda word for whenever someone disagrees with Israel or the Jews.

VERY Politically Correct of you.....

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Monday, January 14, 2008 6:14 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

You see Finn, I noticed that you had not one thing to say about the historical record concerning the founding of Israel- which is an accurate summary (I could add a lot of shit about Moshe Dyan and his pals), the fact that Israel has nukes and prolly chemical weapons*, has ignored over a hundred UN resolutions (the big whining point about Saddam... "But he ignored the UN Resolutions and somebody and to do something!! *whine whine*)... and has the Palestinians bottled up pretty much the same as the Warsaw ghetto.

So, if it makes you feel better, substitute the word "Zionist" for "Jew" and address the issues instead of name-calling.

* The El Al plane bound for Tel Aviv that crashed into a Dutch tenement had the basic chemicals on board to create about 300 kilos of Sarin. That explains the health problems of both the residents and responders, and also explains why all records of the first 30 hours of response (including audio and video-tapes and the plane's manifest) were destroyed with Dutch collusion. Fortunately, about 8 years later somebody leaked a manifest copy to the press and the Dutch government 'fessed up. Here's one link that I grabbed but there are a zillion others.
http://www.ameu.org/uploads/vol34_issue1_2001.pdf

---------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, January 14, 2008 6:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ahh..."Anti-semitism"...the catchall propaganda word for whenever someone disagrees with Israel or the Jews.

No. It’s the catchall phrase for whenever an argument attempts to characterizes Jews in a negative one-sided light, such as your determination that “Jews” are killing Palestinians “on a regular basis” with little consideration for what is actually happening in the Israeli-Palestinian war. And then going on to compare the “Jews” to Nazis, and then posing a threat that we cut off all foreign aid for 2-years and “Let the chips fall where they may.”

Tell me, if the chips fall so that Israel defeats the Arab nations that presumably attack them, then what? We start up foreign aid and we’re all good friends? Or is it your belief that the Jews won’t be able to hold out for two years, thus riding ourselves of the Jewish Question?

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Monday, January 14, 2008 6:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So, if it makes you feel better, substitute the word "Zionist" for "Jew" and stop being such as dick.

So if I portray African-Americans in the United States with a negative one-sided view, but call them “Blacks” instead of “Niggers,” that wouldn’t be racism. I think we can see who the “dick” is.

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Monday, January 14, 2008 6:40 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
So if I portray African-Americans in the United States with a negative one-sided view, but call them “Blacks” instead of “Niggers,” that wouldn’t be racism. I think we can see who the “dick” is.

Once again avoiding the issues. If what I write about blacks is negative but truthful... say.... "Blacks were brought forcibly to the United States as slaves. Their families and cultures were deliberately destroyed, and decades of being blocked from full participation in American civil, social, and economic life has weakened positive cultural values such as the desire for education and cooperation and led to suspicion of the dominant culture" ... is that racism?

I only consider it racism if you try to link a particular behavior to a person's race, ethnicity, or sex, portraying a particular characteristic as genetic. By that light, the only way to "fix a problem" is ethnic cleansing. Nobody here is saying that Jews are inherently anything. There is, however, a significant portion of Jews who believe that God gave them a portion of the Mideast so that they can live under their religious government, and that any and all means are allowed to create and maintain such a state. IMHO, that claim makes as much sense as any religious claim to land which is.... none. So, is that being anti-Semitic? Or anti-Zionist? (There is a difference you know, and it's not the same difference as "black" and "nigger".)

Finn, the only reason why you and most people support Israel is because you feel a religious sympathy. It has nothing to do with Israel being our ally or whether they've acted ethically. Yanno, I get it. I understand it, but you should too.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, January 14, 2008 6:43 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Negative, one-sided....oh boy. Give me a break.

Yes. Let the chips fall where they may. Maybe Israel would finally win and destroy her neighbors. It shouldn't be too hard with all the money they get from the diamond trade they control.

They can buy more weapons and governments with it.

*sigh

And yes, I do compare things. Especially when its such an easy comparison.

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Monday, January 14, 2008 8:55 AM

TRAGICSTORY

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
So if I portray African-Americans in the United States with a negative one-sided view, but call them “Blacks” instead of “Niggers,” that wouldn’t be racism. I think we can see who the “dick” is.
Once again avoiding the issues. If what I write about blacks is negative but truthful... say.... "Blacks were brought forcibly to the United States as slaves. Their families and cultures were deliberately destroyed, and decades of being blocked from full participation in American civil, social, and economic life has weakened positive cultural values such as the desire for education and cooperation and led to suspicion of the dominant culture" ... is that racism?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

The point he is trying to make is you can not take the actions of a small minority and impose them on a majority. (The very definition of stereotype).

You can't blame all Americans for the actions of Republicans. You can't blame all Blacks for the actions of Al Sharpton & Jesse Jackon. You can't blame "The Jews" for the actions of Israel.

When you fail to differentiate between the two, then your prejudice is seen... The "controls the diamond trade" line doesn't help either btw.

And whoever said "My tax money should stay in my country" is right on.

But really, the question is moot, since "Israeli Aid" is really nothing but "American Weapons Manufacturer Aid" and if all foreign countries disappeared tomorrow, by 7 AM the next day, Congress would authorize stockpiling weapons against the imminent Martian threat.

And need I point out that no nation/culture/civilization has clean hands?

-----------
"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Monday, January 14, 2008 8:56 AM

GINOBIFFARONI

Perhaps an alternative to the cutting off of aid is balanced aid. If a peace settlement is found and both the Israelis and the Palestinians sign on, they any aid to either side should be in parity so that one ceases to have any advantage over the other... except in the case of treaty violation in which case that side would be cut off.

That way, the path towards rebuilding would be rewarded, and straying would not.

The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Monday, January 14, 2008 9:05 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
You can't blame "The Jews" for the actions of Israel.

I don't blame "the Jews" I blame the Zionists. If Wulfenstar doesn't make that distinctio then, yep, he has a problem.

But Finn OTOH has made it a point to evade discussing the issues: Israel's founding and subsequent actions. IMHO Israel looks a lot like any other ME religious state, and they have WMD to boot.

I suspect that militant Orthodox Zionists don't share the same fellow-feeling towards Xtians that Xtians feel towards them. There is a long history of Xtians being the oppressor.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, January 14, 2008 9:09 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Of COURSE I make a distinction. The Jew down the street who isnt doing anything to anybody doesnt bother me.

Its the Zionists.

Also, I may have made a flippant remark about the diamond trade. But it is true. Look it up.

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Monday, January 14, 2008 10:00 AM

TRAGICSTORY

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Perhaps an alternative to the cutting off of aid is balanced aid. If a peace settlement is found and both the Israelis and the Palestinians sign on, they any aid to either side should be in parity so that one ceases to have any advantage over the other... except in the case of treaty violation in which case that side would be cut off.

That way, the path towards rebuilding would be rewarded, and straying would not.

The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

The problem with that is three-fold.

1.Corruption in the Palestinian Govt. is rampant. It constantly is cited as the #2 problem Palestinians face. When Arafat was alive, 33% of the ENTIRE aid given to the Palestinian people was used "to run his office." No questions asked.

2.The Palestinian leadership is not based on politics but along militant lines. When peace comes about, they will be out of a job so you really have to wonder how eager they are to see that.

3.The current Palestinian "leadership" would swear peace and with each attack shrug off any responsibility and blame it on a "splinter group" it has no control over.

Quote:
IMHO Israel looks a lot like any other ME religious state, and they have WMD to boot.

Israel is really not a religious state. Most of the Israelis never attend synagogue, keep kosher or even wear a skullcap. But you are right that it has its share of millitant nutballs and combined with its odd parliamentary system, it means they have a say in the govt.

Quote:
Of COURSE I make a distinction. The Jew down the street who isnt doing anything to anybody doesnt bother me.

Its the Zionists.

Also, I may have made a flippant remark about the diamond trade. But it is true. Look it up.

When you do not distinguish between the two, and constantly, throughout the entire post use The Jews instead of Zionists, Israelis, etc. then what are we to expect? If I were ranting against the NAACP but used the words "The Blacks" instead, the gist of the post is completely different.

And as for diamonds:
De Beers runs the diamond trade. They control about 60% of the world's supply and are responsible for keeping the prices artificially high. There is an exchange in Tel Aviv, but if you want the real culprit, look at South Africa.

-----------
"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Monday, January 14, 2008 10:29 AM