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Originally posted by chrisisall:
It just boggles my mind that folks right here are so full of lack of empathy...empathyless? Never been is a situation? Ahh, it ain't that bad. Some peeps love waterboarding. I guess.


Ranting Chrisisall

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

I am empathyless to them folks who saw heads off of innocents

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Like the whole Israeli/Palestinian mess- lots of talk about reaction and response, not so much about preventing the NEED for reaction or response.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
What I see are people ignoring the facts or ignorant of them, and instead buying the Hamas anti-Semitic propaganda line, which is completely pointless in terms of prevention.

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almost gladatorial, education-indoctrination system

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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almost gladatorial, education-indoctrination system

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almost gladatorial? ?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Yeah, it was called "the school bus".

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

Others (like ME) say we should learn from the past enough to try and PREVENT s**t like that from happening in the first place.

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Originally posted by Kirkules:
Most of the covert ops/government conspiracies Frem tells us about were considered by those planing them to be preventative measures. Preventative methods, reacting after the fact, and even doing nothing have consequences. I doubt that there's enough agreement on what the lessons of the past tell us to ever come up with effective preventive measures.

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Originally posted by Kirkules:
Maybe we should start teaching kids in grade school that it's not OK to stack up naked Arabs when you're holding them as enemy combatants.

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Pre-empt, react or do nothing are all the wrong answers. Why? Because any action you take, could take or don't take has it's own downside and unforeseen circumstances. Some of these outcomes could be better or worse than the others but the only one you actually know the outcome of is the action you chose.

For example there is a theory that had the western allies stood up to Hitler when he invaded Chekozlovakia the war could have been averted and millions of lives saved. On the other hand such an action could actually have been far worse we don't know because we have no idea how that situation would have played out. However there will always be people that obsess on the downside and so whatever you do (or don't do) will always be "wrong."

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:

The answer lies in grief and in healing and compassion for those who just don't get it.

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Jong, you're talking about history which is an account of things that actually happened --- well, the accepted or official opinion about what happened to be completely accurate.

What I'm talking about is the actual mechanics of decisions and what I call the "road not taken" paradox. Almost any decision you make has a number of characteristics. There is the good side, the thing you are trying to achieve, there is the badside, the bad stuff that's likely to happen if you make this decision --- and in reality any decision that's important has some bad stuff in it for someone -- then there's an area of uncertainty, extra bad stuff that might happen, ways in which the good stuff may not be as good as you thought, those kinds of things. The problem with uncertainty is that you have no idea what might happen as a result of your actions or inactions. It's kind of the butterfly effect on steroids.

Things are complicated because not everyone will see the good/bad/unknown the same way and as a result you can get honest disagreements on the right cause of action.

Things are further complicated by history. History because it records events after the fact often shows decisions to be flawed in the light of more complete information you get with 20/20 hindsight. The problem is that people tend to accept this explanation. If you bet on horses in a race you may make decisions on hunches or on careful consideration of form. Now imagine that at the end of the day there was a big sign that said that those folks that bet on the wrong horses were all idiots because we know who the winner is now and it should have been obvious before the race was won. That's in effect what history does to all decisions that didnt work out no matter how well thought through and studied they were at the time.

Anyway to my point.

There is a story, I don't know if it is true or an urban legend, that German commanders in the first campaigns had sealed orders to withdraw if the Western allies came in to support those regions being attacked. The implication is that a more robust response from Britain and France in the early military adventures of the Hitler regime could have forced him to back down and averted a war. There are those that say that the Western Allies were not ready for a war with Germany at that time, that holding back and negotiating gave them time to build up the forced they eventually needed, that had standing up to Hitler forced an early war the allies would have lost. We know what happened and we have a "road not taken" that has it's own good/bad/unknown equation that because we never lived it we never got to play out -- it's a horse race never run where all you can do is make a prediction based on form.

So let's look at the start of ww2. We know what history tells us happened of the good and bad decisions made but in the shadows is the unplayed timeline, the things that might have happened had we zigged rather than zagged.

Which is why there are no good decisions in public discourse. If you are pre-emptive, then people will point to the inevitable bad stuff and says "if you had done this........ we wouldnt have had that problem" what they are pointing to is just the good stuff from the "road not taken" shadow timeline, (which of course tends to ignore the associated bad stuff and cant evaluate the unknowns.) Likewise if you do nothing and just react to a crisis, people will point to the shadowy pre-emptive timeline to show how you screwed up by not acting sooner.

So you can't win, because no matter what you do, no matter how well intentioned or well reasoned your action, you will still have screwed up according to somebody.

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