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Originally posted by Cruithne3753:
What's with all the crazed applause? Do people get shot for not applauding hard enough?

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Originally posted by Cruithne3753:
What's with all the crazed applause?

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Originally posted by Hero:


I'm a long time Bush fan

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Originally posted by SignyM:

The State of the Union is a irony-free zone.

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Originally posted by Hero:


I'm a long time Bush fan

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and I think this is one of the best State of the Union speeches I've heard...but not because it was a great speech...because

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
You took the blue pill.

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Originally posted by rue:
Then why did you take it ?

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Originally posted by Hero:

Truth is if you can't see yourself eating a slab of ribs with them (or a nice brisket for the Texans) then we really should not be putting them in office.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

But I just HAVE to say...

GoramMan, you just earned yourself drink of choice, should we ever cross paths for real.

That was well said.

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Originally posted by GoramMan:
I promissed myself that I would stay out of these types of threads and just concentrate on the workings of the 'Verse. But today I have failed.

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Originally posted by Hero:

Truth is if you can't see yourself eating a slab of ribs with them (or a nice brisket for the Texans) then we really should not be putting them in office.

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Oh my good lord in heaven help us. A lot of people think like this. There is a term for it and it is "Identity Politics." The belief that someone personally acceptable to you would be perfectly qualified and deserving of a position in public service is very pervasive. It's reasoning like this that give pollsters so much clout in our media. Because they know huge chunks of all demographics they have identified will not stray too far from their own idealized IMAGE of what a leader is and that image is reflective of SELF IMAGE.

The Maverick Congressman. The Cowboy President. The Fighter for Common Folk. These are the messages they send us and they work whether they are true or not. Of course it doesn't stop with elections. Yesterday I saw a book at a store titled God is a Salesman. Really Mr. Stevens? My father is a damn good salesman. Does that make him more Godly?

I've never understood this thinking because I've never had any epiphanies that must occur as follows:

- I'm at the stern wheel festival by the river sampling some of the vendors BBQ. Lo and behold a politician shows up and I observe him eating. I then walk up to him and say, "Mr. Politician, I can tell by the way you eat ribs with your fingers and don't wipe your mouth off with a napkin between every bite that you would be the perfect person to set monetary policy for our nation."

- I'm at the local dive bar and three sheets to the wind. A Jock is talking about nailing an Asian chick. I'm so impressed by his success that I say, "Jock, I can tell by the way you bagged that babe you have a thorough understanding of Sino-Amercan history and commerce and would do much to create a balance of trade with third world dictatorships that benefit from slave labor driven export buisness."

- I'm at my favorite coffee shop and it's open mic night. A Yale graduate with an acoustic guitar performs some Billy Joel hits with a poetic twist. After finishing my caramel mocha frappaccino I go to the performer and say, "Mr. Yale Grad, I can tell by your rendition of some of my favorite music you have your finger on the pulse of the nation and understand its soul."

They are all lies. They borrow our ideas about what we think is leadership, but is our own self image, and sell it back to us in exchange for our vote. These people are not like you or me. They are powerful beyond our full comprehension and do not share the same interests and needs. They do not share the kinds of concerns that the crew of Serenity had. They aren't desperate for work, pursued by an oppressive authority, or running from the law. They don't have to work (as we know work), they are the oppressive authority, and they write the laws. Their only worry is that we will really figure them out. Do not give them your faith based on the image they allow you to see.

Wake up.

I'm done.

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Originally posted by rue:
"It's nearly impossible to sort through the crap that comes out of a politician's mouth and determine what they actually stand for."

No, it's pretty easy. You look at their record from any previous office they've held. But that, uhh, takes work.

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NAH - it's so much easier to vote based on commercials.

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Kirkules:
I'm sure that super geniuses like yourself, who are experts in foreign affairs, economics, public relations and all the other numerous areas of expertise necessary to make a perfect presidential candidate, have no need to be able to communicate with the common folk. The rest of us use what little knowledge we have of the issues and all things being equal we pick the candidate that can communicate ideas to us in terms we can understand.

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Kirkules:
...the Jock that nailed the Asian chick probably does know more than most politicians about things that matter to this country.

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Kirkules:
It's nearly impossible to sort through the crap that comes out of a politician's mouth and determine what they actually stand for.

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Kirkules:
Whether or not a politician likes barbecue and beer, or caviar and Dom Perignon actually does tell something about the candidates ability to relate to the problems of those of us less enlightened than yourself.

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Kirkules:
Seems to me like your the one giving credence to the stereotype "Images" perpetuated by pollsters and the media about the reasons for the way Americans vote. You should open your narrow mind and use all the information available to you to make a candidate decision, not just that information that fits in your narrow parameters of info proper for consideration.

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Originally posted by GoramMan:
No geniuses here. I'm just a guy going to college on MGIB and wage slaving (but no debt) in one of the poorest states in the US. I'm about as common as you get. The only difference is that I've been 3/4 around the world, I've paid a little attention to things most others do not, and I crack a book open every once in a while with the intent of increasing knowledge.

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Originally posted by GoramMan:
You see a campaign ad you don't like... Boom! Look up who made it. Get a list of their directors, operators, and contributors. Crossreference those names with a news article search. Articles about them are fine but what you really want is things they've written. Get a feel for the people behind the effort. See if they've been indicted or censured by the FEC, SEC, FBI (the whole alphabet soup) and any licensors they have. Also get a feel for the size of their wallet by looking at their political contributions and the tax forms for any non profit organizations they associate with. The money invested is a measurement of their commitment. All the info I just described is public knowledge and for a damn good reason.

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Originally posted by GoramMan:
You infer all of the extra meaning yourself. They just know what you'll think. Simply toss'n back a cold one doesn't mean that person knows what the cost of milk is or how long it will last two growing children.

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Originally posted by GoramMan:
I'm pretty comfortable and non-defensive about the information I base my decisions on.

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Originally posted by GoramMan:
- I'm at the stern wheel festival by the river sampling some of the vendors BBQ. Lo and behold a politician shows up and I observe him eating. I then walk up to him and say, "Mr. Politician, I can tell by the way you eat ribs with your fingers and don't wipe your mouth off with a napkin between every bite that you would be the perfect person to set monetary policy for our nation."

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Originally posted by Hero:
even less to do with ribs.

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subjective measure of character

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Originally posted by SergeantX:
Goramman should post more. That is all.

SergeantX

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Originally posted by GoramMan:

No geniuses here. I'm just a guy going to college on MGIB and wage slaving (but no debt) in one of the poorest states in the US. I'm about as common as you get. The only difference is that I've been 3/4 around the world, I've paid a little attention to things most others do not, and I crack a book open every once in a while with the intent of increasing knowledge.

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BIGDAMNNOBODY:
How is judging a politician based on their tv ads or charitable contributions any different than their eating habits? Isn't this all 'identity politics' like you mentioned earlier?

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BIGDAMNNOBODY:
Politicians don't drink milk? Politicians don't have children?

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Hero:
I think you misunderstand the point. How a person eats there ribs has little to do with monetary policy and even less to do with ribs.

For me, and I think the majority of Americans the whole 'sitting down to dinner' concept is a subjective measure of character.

The thought process is like this...here is someone I could have dinner with, he is a genuine person, one I can trust to do what he says he's gonna do (good or bad). He's a neighbor, co-worker, church member, friend, father, cook, he eats ribs and likes Chuck Norris...so if he says he's gonna raise taxes (like Obamma) then he's gonna try to do it and he thinks its right OR if he says he's gonna cut taxes (like Republicans) then he's gonna do it cause he thinks its right.

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I don't listen to what they SAY, I watch how they VOTE - cause in the end, that tells you everything.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Goram, believe me, if you think THAT's post-flambe, you ain't read many of mine!

My rule is that I don't care what someone believes, what someone says, I care what they DO.

...


I don't listen to what they SAY, I watch how they VOTE - cause in the end, that tells you everything.

-Frem

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Originally posted by GoramMan:
Here we go.

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Kirkules:
I'm sure that super geniuses like yourself, who are experts in foreign affairs, economics, public relations and all the other numerous areas of expertise necessary to make a perfect presidential candidate, have no need to be able to communicate with the common folk. The rest of us use what little knowledge we have of the issues and all things being equal we pick the candidate that can communicate ideas to us in terms we can understand.

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No geniuses here. I'm just a guy going to college on MGIB and wage slaving (but no debt) in one of the poorest states in the US. I'm about as common as you get. The only difference is that I've been 3/4 around the world, I've paid a little attention to things most others do not, and I crack a book open every once in a while with the intent of increasing knowledge.

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Kirkules:
...the Jock that nailed the Asian chick probably does know more than most politicians about things that matter to this country.

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The Jock and the Grad are also politicians. Sorry I wasn't clear on that in the original post. This brings me to another point. Many people in the US don't label politicians they like as politicians. That also irks me. They think politics = bad. I do not. Politics is the process by which groups make decisions and accomplish goals. It's the intentions behind the politics that matter. In the 2000 campaign Bush frequently railed against the insiders in DC and politicians. Then the son of a US president, grandson of a US congressman, asked everybody to vote for him. The people that don't see the complete contradiction here do not live in the real world.

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Kirkules:
It's nearly impossible to sort through the crap that comes out of a politician's mouth and determine what they actually stand for.

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It is very possible. The best tool you have for this is at your finger tips right now. You see a campaign ad you don't like... Boom! Look up who made it. Get a list of their directors, operators, and contributors. Crossreference those names with a news article search. Articles about them are fine but what you really want is things they've written. Get a feel for the people behind the effort. See if they've been indicted or censured by the FEC, SEC, FBI (the whole alphabet soup) and any licensors they have. Also get a feel for the size of their wallet by looking at their political contributions and the tax forms for any non profit organizations they associate with. The money invested is a measurement of their commitment. All the info I just described is public knowledge and for a damn good reason.

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Kirkules:
Whether or not a politician likes barbecue and beer, or caviar and Dom Perignon actually does tell something about the candidates ability to relate to the problems of those of us less enlightened than yourself.

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It tells you nothing. You infer all of the extra meaning yourself. They just know what you'll think. Simply toss'n back a cold one doesn't mean that person knows what the cost of milk is or how long it will last two growing children.

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Kirkules:
Seems to me like your the one giving credence to the stereotype "Images" perpetuated by pollsters and the media about the reasons for the way Americans vote. You should open your narrow mind and use all the information available to you to make a candidate decision, not just that information that fits in your narrow parameters of info proper for consideration.

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Seems to me you're misunderstanding my purpose for posting here. I hate pollsters. Elected public servants are the products of the process that selects them and no other group has more influence than pollsters within the process. Politicians seeking office only need 51% of the vote for guaranteed victory. Having less is very risky but still doable. They guarantee victory by dividing us up into manageable groups and pit us against each other. Identity is the easiest divider to evoke because it is judged and understood instantly.

I'm pretty comfortable and non-defensive about the information I base my decisions on.

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Originally posted by rue:
"Some of the candidates like Clinton, Romney and Obama don't have enough history in government to determine their true positions."


So, you'd rather vote for someone based on a 30 second commercial and whether you'd like a beer with that image, rather than a 2 year voting record - like Obama's.

Not saying you're an idiot, but ...

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their taste for barbecue

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Originally posted by Kirkules:

Thanks for your reply GoramMan. The tone of my original response could have be more civil seeing as you are new to RWED. It just pissed me off that you would suggest that Hero or anyone else here would vote for someone solely on their taste for barbecue. Sounds to me like we agree more than not on this subject. After reading your response I think I understand more were you were coming from.

I actually don't have to do a lot of research to find my candidate because I have a few "litmus tests" that I use to cull the field before I even bother doing any more in-depth study. First would be the 2nd Amendment,(Clinton, Obama eliminated) next extreme religious beliefs (Huckaby and possibly Romney eliminated). The field gets narrow pretty fast.

I would have never guessed you were a college student. The mature tone of your posts made me think you were a grumpy old man like me. I hope you will continue to post in RWED as I always enjoy read posts from intelligent folks like yourself, even when I disagree with them.

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Originally posted by GoramMan:

But people do invest their faith in politicians based on those images they project. Karl Rove, Frank Luntz, that Rag'n Cajun guy, and Begala bank on it.

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