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Does this mean like music, and art and photography?

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She would be all smiles and heartwarming behavior to deliberately entice you closer - so she could try to poke your eye out.

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Originally posted by rue:
LeadB

How do you explain Win/tel dominance in the face of determined anarchists like the FSF and AMD ?

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Originally posted by rue:
"most of those potential investors would morally balk at ripping people off."

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ...... SA gold and diamond mines. Need I say more ?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer thinks that "intellectual property" should be gotten rid of.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Personally, I think we should get rid of "the police".

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Originally posted by rue:
You fool. I've never been talking about the 80 % being 'bad'. I've always been talking about the 20 % - or 2 % - who will break any system that depends on voluntary good behavior.

BTW the other 20% who have no such compunctions will get even fatter and richer for being fewer.

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Where in the world did you get that idea? I suggested that IP is just like any other property, and cannot be forced or coerced from the owner.

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Originally posted by rue:
Finally, to say there's NO biological basis for sociopathy implies there's no biological basis for schizophrenia, autism or Tourette's either.

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5) Scientists who have noticed that primates are born with personalities - timid, laid back, confident, calm etc. And pediatricians who've noticed the same about human children (Brazelton).

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The vast amount of our mental processes - probably 95% - are out of reach of our consciousness. And I believe our personalities are formed there. We think we're in control - but we're not. We're just riding the wave.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I was also in the middle of saying that capitalism is inconsistent with anarchism.

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Originally posted by rue:
Silly goose.

People shop at Wal-Mart all the time - despite it being one of the biggest rip-off artists around. u-soft still makes an obscene profit. People still buy gasoline."

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Interesting take, considering that all libertarian/anarchist economists and philosophers consider free-market capitalism one of the keystones of their system.

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I would like to say that the suggestion that anarchy is a system that demands that everyone behave well all the time, is just another gross distortion of what Frem or I have said. When this kind of thing passes for a summation of all that's been said by those of us speaking for anarchism, I hesitate to make any comment at all. But okay, though I may very well regret it: what about a system that demands that one third of the population be mentally healthy and committed to the community as a whole? Is that too outrageous to contemplate? What percentage of the population, in your view, behaves well all the time in our current system? Is there any possibility, in your view, that that percentage could improve? What would do it?

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to preserve anarchy you have to eliminate power structures.

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Originally posted by rue:
Ahem. But the other 20 % will still do what they want to do. And they will benefit di$proportionately and use those benenfitS to springboard further economic accumulation.

It's not the mindset that drives this - it's the impersonal economic process.

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Originally posted by Geezer:

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Originally posted by rue:
Ahem. But the other 20 % will still do what they want to do. And they will benefit di$proportionately and use those benenfitS to springboard further economic accumulation.

It's not the mindset that drives this - it's the impersonal economic process.

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So child labor and slavery are still in play in the US? 12 hour workdays 7 days a week? Sorry, but if a large majority of folks think something is immoral, it'll end.

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You may not like WallyWorld, but most folk see it as a place to get stuff cheap. If that changes it'll go away.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Cheap stuff made by child labour and 12/7 workdays.

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Which comes back to those questions that you never seem to answer about who decides abuses have taken place, who decides what action is taken and why the 80% hard core individualists will slavishly follow though on that opinion and take collective action?

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Originally posted by Geezer:

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Cheap stuff made by child labour and 12/7 workdays.

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The few times I've ventured into Wal-mart most of the product seems to be the same stuff you can buy anywhere else, just a bit cheaper. Cites on the child labor bit, as opposed to any other business, and opposed to what those kids would be doing otherwise, would be appreciated.

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Which comes back to those questions that you never seem to answer about who decides abuses have taken place, who decides what action is taken and why the 80% hard core individualists will slavishly follow though on that opinion and take collective action?

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Individuals take action based on whether or not they think Rule 1 has been violated and Rule 2 applies. If they want to take collective action they will. If they want to take individual action they will.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Not the point. What the kids would be doing or whether they would do the same thing for a different business is not the issue.

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So I sack Frank because he's an incompetent jerk. He refuses to leave my premises and starts damaging my property. I decide he's violating rule 1 and use rule 2 to have security eject him. Frank goes to his friends shows them the bruises caused by my legitimate use of rule 2 and claims I broke rule 1. They are his friends not mine. They decide that rule 1 was broken so they invoke rule 2 to tit-for-tat damage my car... because someone has to teach me not to treat poor Frank that way. I see the damage to my property that breaks rule 1, send rentacop over to execute rule 2.

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Folks keep saying WalMart is a monopoly and horrible exploiter of children and use this as an example of the failure of capitalism. Proof of this would be nice.- Geezer

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Wal-Mart was removed from KLD & Co.’s Domini 400 Social Index because of what it called ‘sweatshop conditions’ at its overseas vendors’ factories.... KLD also cited charges that the company hasn’t been forthright about its involvement with a Chinese handbag manufacturer alleged to have subjected workers to 90-hour weeks, exceptionally low wages, and prison-like conditions. ... Some of the abuses in foreign factories that produce goods for Wal-Mart include:

Forced overtime
Locked bathrooms
Starvation wages
Pregnancy tests
Denial of access to health care
Workers fired and blacklisted if they try to defend their rights

.. the Kathie Lee clothing label (made for Wal-Mart by Caribbean Apparel, Santa Ana, El Salvador) conducted sweatshop conditions of forced overtime. ... It is common for the cutting and packing departments to work 20-hour shifts from 6:50 a.m. to 3:00 a.m. Anyone unable or refusing to work the overtime hours will be suspended and fined, and upon repeat "offenses" they will be fired. This factory is in an American Free Trade Zone. Wal-Mart regularly says it does not tolerate child labor or forced or prison labor but when it comes to walking the walk the company refuses to reveal its Chinese contractors and will not allow independent, unannounced inspections of its contractors’ facilities.

Clothing sewn in China is usually done by young women, 17 to 25 year old (at 25 they are fired as ‘too old’) forced to work seven days a week, often past midnight for 12 to 28 cents an hour, with no benefits. Or that the women are housed in crowded, dirty dormitories, 15 to a room, and fed a thin rice gruel. The workers are kept under 24-hour-a-day surveillance and can be fired for even discussing factory conditions. The factories in China operate under a veil of secrecy, behind locked metal gates, with no factory names posted and no visitors allowed. China’s authorities do not allow independent human rights, religious or women’s groups to exist, and all attempts to form independent unions have been crushed.

In October 10, 2002, the National Organization for Women (NOW) reported that the Maine Department of Labor ordered Wal-Mart to pay the largest fine in state history for violating child labor laws. The Department of Labor discovered 1,436 child labor law infractions at 20 Wal-Mart chains in the state.

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... Much of the clothing purchased by Wal-Mart is made in poor countries like Bangladesh.... It specifically says the company will not deal with any supplier that employs children under age 14... {BUT} Pictures were taken by hidden cameras in Bangladesh factories as part of Radio-Canada's investigation. Radio-Canada journalists posed as buyers in the Canadian garment industry so they could videotape inside factories in Bangladesh with hidden cameras. In one factory, typical of many in the country, children were busy with lower-skill tasks. In badly lit, dirty and overheated workshops, young boys were everywhere. A label reading Simply Basic, one of Wal-Mart's in-house brand names along with the number CA 28885, the corporate ID of Wal-Mart Canada, was seen in the factory

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Despite its claim that it slashes profits to the bone in order to deliver "Always Low Prices," Wal-Mart banks about $7 billion a year in profits, ranking it among the most profitable entities on the planet. Of the 10 richest people in the world, five are Waltons-the ruling family of the Wal-Mart empire. S. Robson Walton is ranked by London’s "Rich List 2001" as the wealthiest human on the planet, having sacked up more than $65 billion (£45.3 billion) in personal wealth and topping Bill Gates as No. 1...

As Charlie Kernaghan of the National Labor Committee reports, "In country after country, factories that produce for Wal-Mart are the worst," adding that the bottom-feeding labor policy of this one corporation "is actually lowering standards in China, slashing wages and benefits, imposing long mandatory-overtime shifts, while tolerating the arbitrary firing of workers who even dare to discuss factory conditions."

Wal-Mart does not want the U.S. buying public to know that its famous low prices are the product of human misery... so while it loudly proclaims that its global suppliers must comply with a corporate "code of conduct" to treat workers decently, it strictly prohibits the disclosure of any factory names and addresses, hoping to keep independent sources from witnessing the "code" in operation...


... Even though China’s minimum wage is 31 cents an hour-which doesn’t begin to cover a person’s basic subsistence-level needs-these production workers are paid 13 cents an hour. Workers typically live in squatter shacks, seven feet by seven feet, or jammed in company dorms, with more than a dozen sharing a cubicle costing $1.95 a week for rent. They pay about $5.50 a week for lousy food. They also must pay for their own medical treatment and are fired if they are too ill to work.

The work is literally sickening, since there’s no health and safety enforcement. Workers have constant headaches and nausea from paint-dust hanging in the air; the indoor temperature tops 100 degrees; protective clothing is a joke; repetitive stress disorders are rampant; and there’s no training on the health hazards of handling the plastics, glue, paint thinners, and other solvents in which these workers are immersed every day.

As for Wal-Mart’s highly vaunted "code of conduct," NLC could not find a single worker who had ever seen or heard of it.

These factories employ mostly young women and teenage girls. Wal-Mart, renowned for knowing every detail of its global business operations and for calculating every penny of a product’s cost, knows what goes on inside these places. Yet, when confronted with these facts, corporate honchos claim ignorance and wash their hands of the exploitation: "There will always be people who break the law," says CEO Lee Scott. "It is an issue of human greed among a few people."

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Originally posted by Geezer:


And once again you apply present day ethics to the situation and blame the result on Anarchist philosophy.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Originally posted by Geezer:

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Not the point. What the kids would be doing or whether they would do the same thing for a different business is not the issue.

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Sure it is. Folks keep saying WalMart is a monopoly and horrible exploiter of children and use this as an example of the failure of capitalism. Proof of this would be nice.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
HK, I'd like to interject if I may... The problem, as I see it, is that 99% of our current problems (barring tsunamis, volcanoes and other natural catastrophes) are caused by .000001% of the population who happen to own 50% of the world's resources. And this is in a milieu where 80% + of "the people" just want to get along. Anarchism has to be able to control the behavior of a vanishingly small percentage. If it's true that anarchism is a form of capitalism, all you'll get is the same problem over again because anarchists will have no morally compelling reasons to do anything about acquisitive behavior and sharp business practices. 'Cause it's all "allowed".

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Originally posted by rue:
Hi HKC

"I would like to say that the suggestion that anarchy is a system that demands that everyone behave well all the time, is just another gross distortion of what Frem or I have said."

We are talking at cross purposes here. I think SignyM and I are thinking in terms of systems and how they behave over time. It's like talking about entropy or crystal growth - it's about an impersonal process.

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HKC, I think you really need to read Le Guin again. The reason why I mention that is b/c she has already figured out that there are 'power structures' (her exact phrase) in society - whether laws, money, goods, religion or other organization, or even custom. And she understands that some people will use any 'power structure' for their benefit. And further, to preserve anarchy you have to eliminate power structures. Capitalism is only one of many power structures that will break anarchism.

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Signy, you're playing the totalitarian's song when you grant them so much power. Totalitarians don't need you to love them, only for you to believe there is no way to fight them or to escape their influence.

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I have no evidence but it's my guess that the complexity of these systems increases with the size of community, which causes problems when you have to do complex stuff that involves a lot of people, which is essentially what the modern world is. I suspect Frem understands that too, which is why his description of Fremworld is a few hundred people with limited technical and medical means.

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
So what part of it doesn't apply does Anarchism mean that there will be no "Franks" does it mean I won't have property to protect. Please tell me exactly how anarchism makes this impossible?

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I have asked specific questions about who decides rule 1 have been violated and how rule 2 is applied. You have refused to deal with specifics in favour of "well folks will do stuff" kinds of answers.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer, in other words, your system has no answers to known, demonstrated systems problems.

Forgive me if I don't buy into it.

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Lost in the discussion of monopolies ... is the concept of individual liberty

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Originally posted by SignyM:
The difference between you and I is that you view capitalism as a beneficent entity. I see blood on its feet from trampling the poor and the unorganized.

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