A new level of despicable by Geezer

I'd like to see some actual evidence of this before buying a tale from the same mainstream media that tried to sell us everything from "Remember the Maine" to Ahmed Chalabi, to the Kuwaiti Incubator Story, and other such Faery Tales...

Not sayin such things as in this article do not, or can not, happen, mind you - it just seems awfully damned convenient and written in such a way as to attempt provocation of a knee-jerk reaction without thinkin about it too much.

And yanno, that kinda makes me suspicious, it does.

-Frem
"Is that what you think, or is that what they want you to think ?"
- V

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Friday, February 1, 2008 10:29 PM

BADKARMA00

Once again betraying my ignorance, Frem, which you are so kind to help enlighten, thank you:)

Kuwaiti Incubator Story?

I had to have missed that somewhere.

Bad_karma

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Saturday, February 2, 2008 2:03 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Jeesh...aren't they ALL mentally retarded or insane? I mean the ones that have "normal" IQ's who either plan, direct, donate to, or actually blow up themselves and innocents either because of blood hatred, or their family will get money, or they'll get to bed virgins in heaven; or the militants who saw civilians' heads off with jagged-edged knives or those that use orphaned children forced by fear and intimidation to exact revenge. Can there be one ounce of sane humanity in any of these mammals? Maybe when they run out of human tools to execute their heinous & barbaric acts they'll start using dogs, cats, and trained pigeons.

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Saturday, February 2, 2008 5:14 AM

MASTERBATES

Trained pigeons are a possibility. The US Army experimented with pigeon-guided missiles. (You may think I'm kidding, but I'm not; look up Project Pigeon on Wikipedia) [/offtopic]

________________________

When you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he's not doing the same thing.

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Saturday, February 2, 2008 6:19 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Yeah, my first thought was: Another Incubator Story? FYI, the "Incubator Story" came about when a sobbing 15-year old girl named Nayirah testified to Congress

Quote:
I volunteered at the al-Addan hospital. While I was there, I saw the Iraqi soldiers come into the hospital with guns, and go into the room where . . . babies were in incubators. They took the babies out of the incubators, took the incubators, and left the babies on the cold floor to die.

That helped whip up a frenzy for the first Gulf War. But in fact it was all a hoax. The girl was actually the daughter of a Kuwaiti emir and ambassador to Washington, had not even been in Kuwait at the time, and "had been coached by the public relations firm Hill and Knowlton to give persuasive false testimony."

http://911review.com/precedent/decade/incubators.html

Saw something similar happen in US politics too. There was a picture of a Down's syndrome boy winning a race, with the caption: Voting for XXXX (R) is like being in the Special Olypmics: You may be a winner, but you'll still be retarded. In fact, this flyer was distributed by Candidate XXX (R) who was hoping to generate enough backlash to pick up some votes. The bulletin board that I frequent was all up in arms against Candidate YYY (D), the putative source. I had to get in touch with both candidates and straighten out the outrage.

In other words:

THIS MAY BE A HOAX. Politicians lie. Be careful about what you believe. NEVER react emotionally to anything a politician says, otherwise they've got you by shorts..

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Saturday, February 2, 2008 6:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Tricking the mentally disabled to carry bombs into markets and then setting them off by remote control is just so far beyond the pale I can't even comprehend.

Oh, so the mentally disabled are more worthy of living than anyone else? Killing women and children is bad, but killing the mentally disabled is somehow a new low???

This is why I lose faith in reason- we're too busy reacting emotionally to really THINK.

Chrisisall

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Saturday, February 2, 2008 6:40 AM

BK, it was a deliberate and malicious fiction along the same lines as the (unproven) story above, carefully calculated to cause a knee jerk reaction and sponsored by the American PR firm Hill & Knowlton.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p25s02-cogn.html

This smells the same way, to be honest.

The OSP (Office of Special Plans) via the Lincoln Group* has also been previously lambasted for planting "news" stories, often fake, in various media.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/03/politics/03propaganda.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Group

It's a whole dirty little mess, paid for by your tax dollars and reminscent of Operation MOCKINGBIRD.

Throw in some purchased editorials...

http://hill6.thehill.com/leading-the-news/keller-riled-over-government
-paid-reporters-2005-02-16.html

And you wind up with a complete lack of credibility in the US Mainstream Media.

Oh, and M. Bates - I only wish ludicrous ideas like that were farfetched fiction, but DARPA and our intel guys come up with all kinds of wacked-out shit, with no regard to real world effectiveness, just how much of our tax money they can spend for their neat little toys, which mostly wind up used on US... grrr

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_Kitty

Just replace the surveillance equipment with a bomb, and it's the same general idea - although I would reccommend a dog for that, since cats are natural anarchists and not good at takin orders.

The lunatics really are in charge of the asylum, aren't they ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, February 2, 2008 6:53 AM

"This is why I lose faith in reason- we're too busy reacting emotionally to really THINK."

Not all of us, Chris - cryin wolf only works so very long, and many folks are gettin tired of the taste of that bait.

I'll have a side of politician ass, heavy on the BBQ and some Maalox for afters... supersize the office on that wouldja ?

Thanx

-F

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Saturday, February 2, 2008 7:52 AM

BADKARMA00

THanks guys. I hadn't heard that story.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Saturday, February 2, 2008 12:08 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Oh, so the mentally disabled are more worthy of living than anyone else? Killing women and children is bad, but killing the mentally disabled is somehow a new low???

This is why I lose faith in reason- we're too busy reacting emotionally to really THINK.

It's worse taking advantage of innocent folks with Down's Syndrome (as reported elsewhere) rather than using volunteers, no matter how deluded.

It's also gonna make life rougher for mentally ill people in Iraq who will now be looked on with suspicion, as potential bombers.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, February 2, 2008 12:40 PM

RIGHTEOUS9

it will also makes it easier for us to lump the deaths of children and mentally handicapped into "terror related" "justified" killings...

It sucks having to report on child deaths( I'm referring to a different recent report) at the hands of our military, unless of course it wasn't our fault they died, It was the fault of the evil terrorists we're fighting over there so that we don't have to fight them here.

And I suppose then that they can bump more numbers of both into a category of non-civilian casualties.

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Saturday, February 2, 2008 1:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Oh, so the mentally disabled are more worthy of living than anyone else? Killing women and children is bad, but killing the mentally disabled is somehow a new low???

This is why I lose faith in reason- we're too busy reacting emotionally to really THINK.

Obviously you’re not thinking to well either. You know what strikes me. This article is talking about people who saw the heads of innocent civilians to make a point, and yet all of you are suddenly skeptics. Every time Al Qeada turns around they commit a 'new low.' This is standard practice for them. Who do you people think you’re fooling?

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, February 2, 2008 2:20 PM

....I was gonna mock your ignorance and gullibility, but you know what ?

You've done such a great job yourself there's really no need to bother.

-F

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Saturday, February 2, 2008 4:39 PM

FLETCH2

US officials on the ground say it's a regular suicide bombing, the story about the women being disabled seems to be from the Iraqi government. This strikes me as being for internal consumption.

Arab culture has a tradition that you respect and care for the mentally disabled, in fact the Muslim custom of charity is founded on that tradition. So within the context of the culture this is like saying they strapped bombs to little orphan Anne and used her as a guided weapon. In context in that society you couldn't have done anything much lower.

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Saturday, February 2, 2008 5:03 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
US officials on the ground say it's a regular suicide bombing, the story about the women being disabled seems to be from the Iraqi government. This strikes me as being for internal consumption.

A cite would be nice.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, February 2, 2008 6:12 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

"U.S. military officials referred to the two attacks as suicide bombings, saying both women detonated the explosive devices." (As opposed to being remotely detonated.)

www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/02/01/iraq.main/index.html?eref=rss_topst
ories

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Sunday, February 3, 2008 4:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

....I was gonna mock your ignorance and gullibility, but you know what ?

You've done such a great job yourself there's really no need to bother.

-F

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!isall

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Sunday, February 3, 2008 4:54 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
"U.S. military officials referred to the two attacks as suicide bombings, saying both women detonated the explosive devices." (As opposed to being remotely detonated.)

www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/02/01/iraq.main/index.html?eref=rss_topst
ories

Now all of a sudden you believe "U.S. military officials"? Or do you just believe what you want to hear?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, February 3, 2008 6:41 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Yeah, the Iraq army was really treated w/ rose petals and the open arms of lovely young women across the country in the 1st Gulf War

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, February 3, 2008 7:17 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Now all of a sudden you believe "U.S. military officials"? Or do you just believe what you want to hear?

Jesus effing Christ, Geezer! First you say

Quote:
A cite would be nice.

and then when I provide one you needle me with it? Well, I gotta say that's pretty typical of you.

I did some googling of the various news reports... something you could have done... and found the information was contradictory or inconclusive. Iraqi officials claim to have photos of the two women involved which show that they had Downs syndrome. One Army official said the photos do indicate but they won't be released. But cellphone photos taken at the scene were inconclusive, so the Iraqi photos may be staged.

One witness said people recognized the woman at the pet market as "the crazy lady". Other witnesses said she was a stranger, which is why she attracted such a crowd of teenage boys. In other words, there is enough confusion surrounding the incident to warrant suspension of judgement because it MAY be a misrepresentation, which was my original point. Not that it is, but it MAY be. Because the Incubator Story, the WMD Story, the Pat Tillman Story and the Jessica Lynch Story rattled around the media echo chamber for years as gospel until someone finally did some digging, the truth may not be known for quite some time.

Take a deep breath, calm down and withold judgement until someone can prove the story one way or another. Politicians lie as naturally as breathing. It may take a while for the real story to come out. Be patient and don't jump to conclusions. That's my point.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Sunday, February 3, 2008 8:49 AM

FLETCH2

I would have given the same cite as Signy. Just for the record I'm more inclined to believe US military sources than Iraqi ones because they have a better track record for accuracy! Remember that the same Iraqi government claimed to have killed the leader of Al Q in Iraq 3 times before they actually got him. The USM know anything it says will be analyzed, reanalyzed and completely dissected by the US news agencies, the Iraqi government doesn't have that same fear and desperately needs to win a propaganda war.

Like I said, if this IS the whole truth then in that culture it's a new level of low, kind of like the stories of German troops raping French nuns in WW1, it shows your opponent to be a barbarian.

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Sunday, February 3, 2008 11:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

....I was gonna mock your ignorance and gullibility, but you know what ?

You've done such a great job yourself there's really no need to bother.

-F

Right. Because how could anyone think gentle Al Qaeda did a misdeed?

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Sunday, February 3, 2008 12:06 PM

The story that I heard through the grapevine was that the US isn’t drawing a distinction. In other words, mentally ill or not, they are treating it as a suicide bomber (period). So yes I agree that the US military has a better track record for accuracy then the Iraqi government, but I haven’t heard the US military deny what the Iraqi government is saying yet, so there’s not really a conflict. And by the same argument I believe the Iraqi government over Al Qaeda and I think Al Qaeda, clearly, capable of anything. I have no reason to doubt the report’s veracity and it’s completely within the range of plausibly for Al Qaeda to pull something like this. Now is it true? I don’t really know - I wasn’t there, but there’s little reason to believe that it’s not true.

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Sunday, February 3, 2008 12:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I wasn’t there, but there’s little reason to believe that it’s not true.

And what if it is? How exactly is this a new low for these dummies? Is it better for a mentally disabled person to get vapourized by a bomb someone else is wearing than to blow up wearing such a device themselves? Seems to me the outcome is the same, it's only the way we colour the murderin' that's different.

Atrocities are all in the same, er, atrocity category as far as I'm concerned.

Clueless Chrisisall

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Sunday, February 3, 2008 12:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I wasn’t there, but there’s little reason to believe that it’s not true.

And what if it is? How exactly is this a new low for these dummies?

Well, as I said, Al Qaeda excels in “new lows.” There’s no act Al Qaeda could perform that would be horrible enough to surprise me.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Is it better for a mentally disabled person to get vapourized by a bomb someone else is wearing than to blow up wearing such a device themselves? Seems to me the outcome is the same, it's only the way we colour the murderin' that's different.

I consider it a pretty despicable act to use a mentally ill person, who is not fully in control of his or her faculties, as a tool of murder. But is nothing new. Terrorist groups have been doing this very thing a long time. This is what makes these people evil.

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Sunday, February 3, 2008 2:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Terrorist groups have been doing this very thing a long time.

Yeah.
I just don't see that we need any MORE reason to be angry at them...they're as far off my 'deserve to live' chart as they could be already, no matter what else they do.

Saddened, not angered Chrisisall

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Sunday, February 3, 2008 2:50 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Right. Because how could anyone think gentle Al Qaeda did a misdeed?

God Finn, you are so full of bullshit! That's not the point. everyone knows that al Qaida is full of misdeeds. The point is: Can we trust the Iraqi government to tell the truth?

You've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk? -Dirty Harry

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Sunday, February 3, 2008 2:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Right. Because how could anyone think gentle Al Qaeda did a misdeed?
God Finn, you are so full of bullshit! That's not the point. everyone knows that al Qaida is full of misdeeds. The point is: Can we trust the Iraqi government to tell the truth?

I don’t know, but you need a better test case, because the bullshit here is the assumption that Al Qaeda wouldn’t do it.

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Sunday, February 3, 2008 3:06 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
the bullshit here is the assumption that Al Qaeda wouldn’t do it.

No, the BS here is that we trust the Iraqi government (or indeed ours) in the face of inconsistent evidence. The US military hasn't exactly jumped on-board this story. Yeah, sure, al Qaida MIGHT do something like that. But, they might realize that an action like that would gain them far more negative publicity than they want. OTOH the Iraqi government, seeing that Dems almost certainly will be w/drawing troops sooner rather than later, might want to fan the anti-al-Qaida flames and take some of the heat off their administration. So I see several reasons why the Iraqi government might want to create a scenario so heinous that people couldn't help but react.

Take a deep breath. Calm down, and don't let your emotions run away with you.

I know it's tough. I know you WANT to feel all worked up and angry about something. I know it makes you feel "in control". But your anger can be used against you by people more "in control" than you.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Sunday, February 3, 2008 3:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So I see several reasons why the Iraqi government might want to create a scenario so heinous that people couldn't help but react.

Right. Because Al Qaeda has never done that before. Obviously, it must be a ruse by the Iraqi Government. You just don’t have all the lights on, do you?

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Sunday, February 3, 2008 4:59 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Obviously, it must be a ruse by the Iraqi Government

Why not? It's not as if they haven't lied before... or our government either, for that matter. I've seen people getting all kinds of bent out of shape about stuff that never even happened. Like the Jessica Lynch story.

For years our military has said that al Qaida made up only 5% or less of the fighting force in Iraq. Now suddenly all you ever hear about is al Qaida: al Qaida this, al Qaida that. The whole idea of the "insurgency" seems to have faded from the view. In the popular view, the Iraqis are on the way to a stable government. But what if the bombing was done by Sunni insurgents? Or Shiite militias? How would that make the Iraqi government look? How might the Iraqi government want to spin this? I'm telling ya- politicians lie. And lots of people have all kinds of reason to lie in this case. Just give it a little time to let the facts get sorted out BEFORE you get outraged. They'll be plenty of time for outrage later.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Sunday, February 3, 2008 5:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
And lots of people have all kinds of reason to lie in this case.

And Al Qaeda is an apocalyptic terrorist organization that is activity murdering people and trying to destabilize the government. Whatever reasons you believe people may or may not have for lying, are all really quite moot in this case. Like I said, I don't know what the truth is here, but it's not hard to beleive the story I've heard so far.

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Monday, February 4, 2008 6:09 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Like I said, I don't know what the truth is here but it's not hard to believe the story I've heard so far.

I agree on both points.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, February 4, 2008 6:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
OTOH the Iraqi government, seeing that Dems almost certainly will be w/drawing troops sooner rather than later, might want to fan the anti-al-Qaida flames and take some of the heat off their administration.

This is certainly very possible, and worth serious consideration.

Deep-breathing Chrisisall

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Monday, February 4, 2008 9:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
OTOH the Iraqi government, seeing that Dems almost certainly will be w/drawing troops sooner rather than later, might want to fan the anti-al-Qaida flames and take some of the heat off their administration.
This is certainly very possible, and worth serious consideration.

Why? It’s basically just another moot point. I’m sure that there are many people in the Iraqi government sweating over whether the US will abandon them as, unfortunately, the US has done before to other allies when faced with the politics of a protracted war, but how does this determine the Iraqi governments disposition towards Al Qaeda? Basically, it doesn’t. The Iraqi government is at war with Al Qaeda, which seeks to destabilize and ultimately overthrow the government, so the Iraqi government is anti-Al Qaeda completely independent of what the Democrats do.

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Tuesday, February 5, 2008 4:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Why? It’s basically just another moot point.

Well, if you're gonna play that card, all points made here about anything but this board itself are moot. Is there snow on your roof right now? No? But there could have been, and it may have just melted, so your point that there is no snow on your roof is moot. BTW, you're in the Matrix right now...you think those are keys you're typing on?

HmmmmmmChrisisall

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Tuesday, February 5, 2008 9:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Well, if you're gonna play that card, all points made here about anything but this board itself are moot. Is there snow on your roof right now? No? But there could have been, and it may have just melted, so your point that there is no snow on your roof is moot. BTW, you're in the Matrix right now...you think those are keys you're typing on?

Not all points made on this board are moot. Although YOUR point about snow being on my roof might be moot, but that’s YOUR point, not mine. I probably wouldn’t make such a point unless I had reason to believe that snow was on my roof, since it doesn’t make any sense otherwise.

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Tuesday, February 5, 2008 10:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Although YOUR point about snow being on my roof might be moot, but that’s YOUR point, not mine. I probably wouldn’t make such a point unless I had reason to believe that snow was on my roof, since it doesn’t make any sense otherwise.

The fact that it doesn't make any sense to you is moot point anyway.

Ewwwue, I stepped in a pile of mootisall

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Tuesday, February 5, 2008 10:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
The fact that it doesn't make any sense to you is moot point anyway.

Antually, it’s not a moot point, unless you’re lying to me.

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Tuesday, February 5, 2008 10:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Antually, it’s not a moot point, unless you’re lying to me.

Not necessarily:

Quote:
b. Of no practical importance; irrelevant.

We're all moot hereisall

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Tuesday, February 5, 2008 11:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Antually, it’s not a moot point, unless you’re lying to me.

Not necessarily:

Yes, necessarily. You used the snow on the roof as an example of a moot point, which I agree; it’s moot. Now you’re trying to tell me that it’s not moot. So which is it? If you agree with your own argument then it must necessarily be the case that that you agree with me, when I agree with you? Unless somewhere you’re not telling me the whole story or you don't agree with yourself, in which case what the hells your point?

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Tuesday, February 5, 2008 11:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Unless somewhere you’re not telling me the whole story or you don't agree with yourself, in which case what the hells your point?

My whole point is....dare I say it...moot.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHisall

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Tuesday, February 5, 2008 12:12 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Why? It’s basically just another moot point. I’m sure that there are many people in the Iraqi government sweating over whether the US will abandon them as, unfortunately, the US has done before to other allies when faced with the politics of a protracted war, but how does this determine the Iraqi governments disposition towards Al Qaeda?

Whaaa....? It has nothing to do with the Iraqi's disposition to al Qaida and everything to do with OUR popular disposition to them. Ya never heard of trying to influence another nation with news stories?

Apparently not.

You ARE a babe in the woods!

And may I say... moot.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, February 5, 2008 12:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Whaaa....? It has nothing to do with the Iraqi's disposition to al Qaida and everything to do with OUR popular disposition to them. Ya never heard of trying to influence another nation with news stories?

Except that the news in question didn’t come from us. It came from Iraq. So yes, it has everything to do with Iraq’s disposition towards Al Qaeda.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Apparently not.

You ARE a babe in the woods!

And may I say... moot.

Here’s another moot point. Every time you think you’ve figured something out (think-generally being the operative word), you throw in an insult as a manipulative stunt to attempt to capitalize on your on your own perception of yourself. Why is that? Is your self-esteem really that low or do you actually think it wins you points in the debate?

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Tuesday, February 5, 2008 12:31 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Speaking of insults, here are the oness you threw around

Obviously you’re not thinking to well either.
all of you are suddenly skeptics
Who do you people think you’re fooling?
You just don’t have all the lights on, do you?

Care to throw any more stones ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, February 5, 2008 12:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Speaking of insults, here are the oness you threw around

Obviously you’re not thinking to well either.
all of you are suddenly skeptics
Who do you people think you’re fooling?
You just don’t have all the lights on, do you?

Care to throw any more stones ?

I believe one of those is mine, Rue.
*takes it back for his mantle*

Possessive while moot Chrisisall

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Tuesday, February 5, 2008 1:45 PM