Loyalty to the State by canttakesky

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Loyalty to the State

POSTED BY: CANTTAKESKY
UPDATED: Sunday, March 30, 2008 17:34
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VIEWED: 10959
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Sunday, March 30, 2008 3:15 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
IF we had universal health insurance.... which we don't... we could have well-baby nurse visits: at one moth, six months, and yearly until the age of 5.

This will be mandatory, of course, and include a (warrantless) search of your home for possible dangers to the child (the definition of 'dangers' being left up to the government). And if you miss a couple of appointments, or ask a nurse to leave because you don't like their attitude, the SWAT team shows up and takes your child. So now you're a registered child abuser and, if not jailed, subject to 24/7 monitoring and restricted from living too close to schools or having any contact with your kids. You know you've done nothing wrong, but you don't complain because, after all, it's for the children.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 3:25 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Hey Geezer, thanks for stepping in and trying to divert the discussion away from the question. Which, I note, so far nobody has had the BALLS to answer directly except Rue and myself:

Are you willing to do something to prevent young children from being abused by their parents? Yes or no?

From YOUR tactic I think your view is "No, not willing to do anything." You're just too chicken shit to say it out loud.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 4:22 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

The more interesting thing - which puts his reply into the category of 'phony outrage' as far as I'm concerned - is that this snit over government comes from a guy who's got no problem with any other type of government intrusion or power - the US PATRIOT Act, illegal wiretaps, torture, tasers - it's all good as far as he's concerned.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 4:52 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Sarge, Frem, CTS, BDN et al. Let me be clear about the point of this question: Are you willing to do something to prevent young children from being abused by their parents? Yes or no?.

It's not a trick question. If you answer "Yes, we should do something" that doesn't mean that you automatically agree to anything that anyone has proposed. That simply opens up the discussion to "What, how much, and why?"

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 6:34 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Are you willing to do something to prevent young children from being abused by their parents? Yes or no?
From YOUR tactic I think your view is "No, not willing to do anything." You're just too chicken shit to say it out loud.

Sarge was right, this isn't a simple black and white issue like you seem to want to frame it.
I would assume that all Posters want to prevent child abuse. However, I thought you and Rue would be able to see the end of the slippery slop better than most, given your dislike of the present administration.
Let's pretend that there is a U.S. anti-child abuse act much like the U.S. Patriot act. At it's inception, most hail it as a much needed tool in the fight against the scourge that is child abuse. Then slowly but surely, those among us who think they know better, add to and tweak this act so the Government can have more intrusive powers over your family.
You seem to think any amount of time and or money should be used to prevent child abuse. Other's think any amount of time and or money should be used to prevent terrorism. Both involve the deaths of innocents. Does that mean I can peg you as a frothing at the mouth fundamentalist like you have done to others in past discussions? Are you too close to this discussion to see the other side of the coin? Am I a monster because I am not willing to sacrifice my liberty because of the small minority of bad parents? Are you a monster for not wanting to sacrifice your liberty to spare the small minority of lives lost to acts of terrorism? Or are there simply more than two ways of looking at things and more than two ways of achieving those stated goals?

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 6:45 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I'm not trying to frame it as black or white, my last post explicitly says so. YOU'RE the one who keeps framing it as an either/or issue. So, let's all start with the assumption that

1) All posters WANT to prevent child abuse. The question is: Are you willing to DO something about it? And I don't mean "any" amount as in "endless" amount, I mean "some" amount.

2) Furthermore, let us stipulate that no system is perfect.

The question remains: If so, what, how much, and why or why not?

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 6:52 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Hey Geezer, thanks for stepping in and trying to divert the discussion away from the question. Which, I note, so far nobody has had the BALLS to answer directly except Rue and myself:

Are you willing to do something to prevent young children from being abused by their parents? Yes or no?

The answer to your question is, as usual, "It depends." In this case it depends on what the 'do something' is. Also depends on whether your interpretation of 'do something' is 'do anything possible.' Your line of argument seems to be that anyone not willing to do absolutely everything to prevent abuse supports doing nothing at all. I was giving an example of what doing 'everything' could lead to.

A more apt question would be, "What steps do you think we, as a society, should take to prevent young children from being abused by their parents (or others)?"

Or, "What actions can we take to identify possible abuse without unduly interfering with non-abusive parents' right to raise their own children as they see fit?"

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 6:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The answer to your question is, as usual, "It depends." In this case it depends on what the 'do something' is

And what is YOUR answer to that question?

Quote:
It also depends on whether your interpretation of 'do something' is 'do anything possible.'

WHAT did I just write, Geezer? Can you not read?I said

Quote:
I don't mean "any" amount as in "endless" amount, I mean "some" amount.

Now, will someone have the balls to answer the question?
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 7:47 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Are you willing to do something to prevent terrorists from attacking america? Yes or no?

Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no?

It's the same exact bullshit, from the same playbook.

And it doesn't even deserve an answer.

It's not even a question, just another lead-in to yet another rant about how we should hand over our rights, responsibilities and sacred duties to the almighty State, which historically, you know, does such a GOOD job of them, right ?
(*sarcasm*)

Ain't no one willing to discuss it with you, cause you chose to engage in the exact same 'dishonest debate tactics' you spent so much time vilifying.

And now you're facing the Anarchist response to such problems, to simply refuse to communicate, associate, or trade with someone who has so offended them.

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 7:49 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Now how did I know you were going to say this ?

This is a post I wrote a long time ago, just waiting for someone to step up with the usual:

No doubt they would like to say this an unfair question like "when did you stop beating your wife?" The thing is the question "when did you stop beating your wife" becomes a fair question if, in fact, the person really did beat their wife. So this is the conundrum they are up against. If they answer the question "well, as a matter of fact I stopped beating her a year ago yesterday" it's a backhanded admission. OTOH if they say "I'm still beating her, and I'll beat her tomorrow if I want" it's an admission.

Or to be more specific, if they say "we need to do something like - community involvement and parental support" it's a back-handed admission that leaving it as an individual choice doesn't work. OTOH if they say "kids will be abused today and kids will be abused tomorrow and I don't care to do anything about it" it's an admission of a different kind of failure.

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You see Frem, it IS a fair question if it addresses a fact, as it very much does. Just b/c it's an uncomfortable question for which you don't have an answer doesn't make it unfair.

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 8:04 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Now, will someone have the balls to answer the question?

I did. It depends on what 'doing something' is. Propose something specific instead of asking for a blank check and I'll let you know. Just to set some bounds, putting all children in camps from birth would be going too far. Community education and outreach programs would be OK.

It might also be worthwhile to identify problem areas, rather than just going in with a shotgun approach. For example, you seem to think that homeschooling contributes to increased abuse. Any stats to back that up?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 8:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Are you willing to do something to prevent terrorists from attacking america? Yes or no?

Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no?

Frem, either question could easily be disarmed by simply saying: Since terrorists aren't going to attack the United States/ since I don't beat my wife....

But of course kids ARE being abused, and so my question is a fair one: Do you think something should be done, and if so, what?

Quote:
Propose something specific instead of asking for a blank check and I'll let you know.

I have NOT asked for a "blank check". I have only asked you for YOUR OPINION. Which you will not give.

The only reason why you and no one else will answer is because you're afraid to say openly what your ideology leads you to.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 8:09 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"you're afraid to say openly what your ideology leads you to"

:covers eyes:
:covers ears:
:covers mouth: ?

Anyway, SignyM on this thread you are lucky post 13 for the day !

And now I'll leave you all to it. Gotta get on with stuff.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 8:20 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Yeah me too.

LIBERTARIANS:
covers eyes
covers ears
covers mouth
COVERS BUTT

Who want to talk with a bunch of butt-covering wusses anyway?

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 10:27 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

So, let's all start with the assumption that

1) All posters WANT to prevent child abuse. The question is: Are you willing to DO something about it? And I don't mean "any" amount as in "endless" amount, I mean "some" amount.

2) Furthermore, let us stipulate that no system is perfect.

The question remains: If so, what, how much, and why or why not?

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 4:21 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Sarge, Frem, CTS, BDN et al. Let me be clear about the point of this question: Are you willing to do something to prevent young children from being abused by their parents? Yes or no?.

I've already answered this question. My answer was YES. The "what" is: build a community.

Since you're back to the board parroting repetitive questions, why don't we go back to mine? WHY IS THAT? (And if you again insist it isn't, please cite code, chapter, and section.)

--------------------------
Laws are impotent as preventive measures and oppressive as punitive ones.
--Anonymous

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 4:40 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I've already answered this question. My answer was YES. The "what" is: build a community.

Okay- how?

And what authority does the "community" have if it finds a situation of child abuse? Because in the latest example there WAS a community of family members, and they TRIED to wake up mom and dad to the problem, but they had no authority to intervene.

And how long do you think it'll take to build a community? And what do we do in the meantime? Accept the "collateral damage"?

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 5:17 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Hey, Sig, I'm willing to play.

But answer my question first. I answered yours.

Tit for tat, yes?

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 5:34 PM

CANTTAKESKY

This thread's got 290 posts. Let's continue here:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=33212

--------------------------
Tit for tat, yes?

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