REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Another anti-war movie bombs!

POSTED BY: SKYWALKEN
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 2, 2008 10:38
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2502
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Sunday, March 30, 2008 9:26 AM

SKYWALKEN


There was In the Valley of Elah, there was Redacted, there was Rendition, there was Lions for Lambs...all of them have been flops at the box office.

Now there's MTV's cinematic op-ed against Operation Iraqi Freedom...Stop-Loss .

It's a complete bomb. Estimates so far are just $4.5 million in its opening weekend. It opened 8th out of the top 10.

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20080330/D8VNTGJ80.html

Here's a review of the film:

http://www.libertyfilmfestival.com/libertas/?p=9482

Paul Farhi of the Washington Post put it correctly, "The only things less popular than the war itself are dramatic films and television shows about the conflict."

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 10:44 AM

SERGEANTX


I'm curious. Are you trying to make some kind of point with this post?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 10:53 AM

HKCAVALIER


Look, it's simple: it's hard to sell bad news. As the years go by since the start of this war, more and more Americans are personally touched by the atrocity of this war--not the strongest motivation to run to the movies to see a story about it.

But again: bad news doesn't sell. American's are looking for escape from their block busters. They're not looking to grapple with insoluble questions and injustices over which they feel they have little or no power. Next!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 11:19 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Look, it's simple: it's hard to sell bad news."

I was about to say the same thing. During the Great Depression people didn't go to watch movies of large number of men looking for work and eating at soup kitchens. No, they went to see frivolous stuff. Even WWII was not popular entertainment (though people did watch the news clips) - and that was true even though the US was 'winning' the war and morale was high.

I think the reasonable response to this would be - well DUH !

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 11:37 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


It wasn't that great a movie

seen it yesterday, trailer was better than the movie....

but that said

the facts that the movie brought across should be discussed,

such as the lack of support for returning soldiers, and that 81,000 troops have been stop lossed, or in other words had their contracts extended against their will, and were returned to Iraq.

My view, this practice is wrong.... a draft would be better than this nonsense.

or better, have a vote on the war. And those who vote yes go onto a list of eligibility to be drafted.



The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 3:56 PM

SERGEANTX


This is the one I've been wanting to check out:

http://www.taxitothedarkside.com/

Anyone here seen it?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 4:23 PM

PIRATECAT


And George Clooney wasn't in it.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 5:06 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
or better, have a vote on the war. And those who vote yes go onto a list of eligibility to be drafted.

You know, Gino, I've enjoyed a great number of your posts. This idea has got to be at the top of the heap.

--------------------------
Force and fraud are in war the two cardinal virtues.
--Thomas Hobbes

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 5:51 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
or better, have a vote on the war. And those who vote yes go onto a list of eligibility to be drafted.

You know, Gino, I've enjoyed a great number of your posts. This idea has got to be at the top of the heap.

--------------------------
Force and fraud are in war the two cardinal virtues.
--Thomas Hobbes



I like to think of it as direct democracy one step further. People would have to make a informed decision and support that choice. Have you read Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers.... there is a line saying they would refuse no volunteers. If you want to serve, a job within your ability will be found for you. Too old for combat service, well someone has to count mess kits and that frees up that guy.



The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 5:56 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
This is the one I've been wanting to check out:

http://www.taxitothedarkside.com/

Anyone here seen it?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock



Looks very interesting, nice trailer

The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 6:29 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
facts that the movie brought across should be discussed,

and that 81,000 troops have been stop lossed, or in other words had their contracts extended against their will, and were returned to Iraq.

My view, this practice is wrong.... a draft would be better than this nonsense.



I don't understand if you are just kidding or are really that dumb.
Against their will?? Are you saying they signed their contracts against their will? Are you saying they are too stupid to read the contract they signed? Are you saying the Armed Forces should not exercise the contracts that each member voluntarily signed? Are you saying they should be dishonorable and not honor thier commitment, making their word and their signature worthless, meaning they are less than a man? This is ho9w the post-Clinton contracts work. They could just get out by stating they are gay - what's the problem with that, other than being also dishonorable.
The draft was ended in favor of this volutary form of military. Are you saying you prefer to return to the draft so all military members are not voluteers? It would only be fair that you be the first drafted in that case.

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 6:52 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
I'm curious. Are you trying to make some kind of point with this post?

SergeantX

]



It's easier to miss things when you don't open your eyes. Simply put, despite large budgets, big name actors and directors, these movies continue to fail at the box office, one after another. In an industry which lives by the all mighty dollar, the culture of Hollywood is obsessed w/ trying to project it's own politics and form public opinion with these ridiculous movies. This isn't a case of art imitating life, but rather Hollywood trying to force feed its Left wing agenda down the throats of American movie goers, even if it cost them $$ to do it.

But of course, these movies don't lose money over seas. No, these movies aren't made only for the American market, but for the anti-American sentiment across the seas. That's how Hollywood can fuel one flop after another, with the foreign, hate -America market , which is all too happy to see the US get blamed for all the world's problems.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 8:02 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Simply put, despite large budgets, big name actors and directors, these movies continue to fail at the box office, one after another. In an industry which lives by the all mighty dollar, the culture of Hollywood is obsessed w/ trying to project it's own politics and form public opinion with these ridiculous movies. This isn't a case of art imitating life, but rather Hollywood trying to force feed its Left wing agenda down the throats of American movie goers, even if it cost them $$ to do it.

But of course, these movies don't lose money over seas. No, these movies aren't made only for the American market, but for the anti-American sentiment across the seas. That's how Hollywood can fuel one flop after another, with the foreign, hate -America market , which is all too happy to see the US get blamed for all the world's problems.

Good gravy, AURaptor, you could say that of any number of thoughtful, complex dramas that just don't sell to the multiplex croud. And such movies always do well overseas.

Hello? Firefly also failed--is it 'cause it's antiwar too? Or is it just bad? Bet those European hate-American-firsters liked it plenty.

Oh wait, Serenity didn't do too badly, but then Joss had to dumb that baby down for the multiplexes.
HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 10:22 PM

FLETCH2


I think I can propose a simpler explanation. During wartime people want to be entertained. Yes they do make films about wars during wars but usually only for mandated propaganda reasons. The great war movies get made 10 or 15 years after it's all over.

War just isn't entertaining when you are fighting it, it's too life and death. Since Europe isnt fighting, it's probably more entertaining over there.

Side note, i haven't seen Flight 93 or any of the 9/11 inspired movies when they came out because for me it's just too close to the event. A few more years from now i might be tempted.

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Monday, March 31, 2008 3:37 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Skywalken:
There was In the Valley of Elah, there was Redacted, there was Rendition, there was Lions for Lambs...all of them have been flops at the box office.

Now there's MTV's cinematic op-ed against Operation Iraqi Freedom...Stop-Loss .

It's a complete bomb. Estimates so far are just $4.5 million in its opening weekend. It opened 8th out of the top 10.


Defeatist propaganda does not sell. Lets face it, you'd never see John Wayne in a movies like these.

Remember 'The Gree Berets'? Damn good piece of American Hollywood propaganda. Why? Cause we were the good guys.

Remember the scene in the begining where they are explaining the conflict to the liberal media? They talk about the weapons they are facing in Vietnam coming from various Commie countries...thats good stuff. Damn liberal media.

H

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Monday, March 31, 2008 3:48 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:

Quote:


Originally posted by AURaptor:
Simply put, despite large budgets, big name actors and directors, these movies continue to fail at the box office, one after another. In an industry which lives by the all mighty dollar, the culture of Hollywood is obsessed w/ trying to project it's own politics and form public opinion with these ridiculous movies. This isn't a case of art imitating life, but rather Hollywood trying to force feed its Left wing agenda down the throats of American movie goers, even if it cost them $$ to do it.

But of course, these movies don't lose money over seas. No, these movies aren't made only for the American market, but for the anti-American sentiment across the seas. That's how Hollywood can fuel one flop after another, with the foreign, hate -America market , which is all too happy to see the US get blamed for all the world's problems.



Good gravy, AURaptor, you could say that of any number of thoughtful, complex dramas that just don't sell to the multiplex croud. And such movies always do well overseas.

Hello? Firefly also failed--is it 'cause it's antiwar too? Or is it just bad? Bet those European hate-American-firsters liked it plenty.

Oh wait, Serenity didn't do too badly, but then Joss had to dumb that baby down for the multiplexes.
HKCavalier




Firefly was ONE , alone in it's class. It had/has a very strong, though "select " following. * Failed t.v. shows don't get made into major motion pictures unless the creator, the cast and the fans believe beyond reason What we have here is an entire genre of films, well financed, well stocked w/ talented actors , directors, writers ..... which continue to fail on a colossal level. When " Superhero Movie " and " Drillbit Taylor " out do you on your opening weekend, one must question the good sense in the making of this movie in the 1st place. Especially when all others in its class have failed so miserably.


* Sidebar - I want to take time to point out why ANY of us is here, on this site, is that we believe in the awesomeness of Firefly / Serenity. Yes we have differences, some minor, others not so much. But that the BDM was even made is, in no small measure, a direct result of the efforts of many folks here on this very board. I am , and will always be extremely thankful and proud to be a part of the Browncoat family. We are, from my perspective, unique in all of fandom and in all of Sci Fi.

Quite simply, we rock.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, March 31, 2008 5:19 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
When " Superhero Movie " and " Drillbit Taylor " out do you on your opening weekend, one must question the good sense in the making of this movie in the 1st place.

That's more or less my point. Did you see the director's first movie, Boys Don't Cry? I thought it was a great movie. Not sure how well it did at the box office. It did, however, put Hilary Swank on the map.

If I go to see Stop Loss it will be because of that first movie--or because my S.O. plans to see it. She's told me as much. Interestingly, it's not because she thinks it will be great, but because we have two friends who have been themselves stop lost.
Quote:

* Sidebar - I want to take time to point out why ANY of us is here, on this site, is that we believe in the awesomeness of Firefly / Serenity. Yes we have differences, some minor, others not so much. But that the BDM was even made is, in no small measure, a direct result of the efforts of many folks here on this very board. I am , and will always be extremely thankful and proud to be a part of the Browncoat family. We are, from my perspective, unique in all of fandom and in all of Sci Fi.

Quite simply, we rock.

Indubitably!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, March 31, 2008 12:39 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


So you sign a contract agreeing to work in the armed forces for a 3 or 5 year term. You do so, you are about to get on with your life but then hold on, sorry you cant go....

How is that right ?

My understanding is the contract gives the military the right to extend it if there is a war, but hey, the war ended in 03 didn't it......

A draft would be better because it would force Americans to either give this action their full support, or kick the assholes running your country out and do something else.

As for drafting me, I am proudly not an American and would love to sign on to shoot your politicians as they are even worse than mine, but that would be the limit of any contribution I would make to your fiasco.



The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Tuesday, April 1, 2008 9:16 AM

AVENGINGWATCHER


You are OBVIOUSLY not a military person. Let me explain what stop loss means to you since you probably have no idea. It means that they are extended involuntarily BEYOND the length of the contract because as a soldier you actually have no rights. You are officially property in the eyes of the government, which is why when you get in a fight with a solider you are charged with destruction of government property. ALSO there are clauses which are twisted so that your individual unit can deny your ability to leave. I personally know people who have had at least 2 years added to the length of their contract over the 8 years that they sign up for. There is no such thing as a 3 year or 5 year term. It is 8 years no matter what. You do your active term and then active reserve, then inactive reserve your last two years, unless you are active for six years or more, after that it is a breach of contract to stop loss past this. Technically it is illegal under our current law to say that you can serve four year terms, because it is a lie. However, because it is our us military there will never be a repercussion against it. Also what planet are you from? Individual units can decide not to kick you out for being gay, and you have to go through a review board with some possible jail time depending upon your unit. Also just as a point of reason... the armed forces say that you can have terms of service. I actually never found out that you were in for 8 years until well afterwards, there is also a period where you can get out of the military with no negative repercussions, however the military will illegally refuse to let you leave. The fact that the majority of the people who are in the military are at best only high school educated, you can get a waiver for that, how could you honestly expect them to read the hundreds of documents that they are forced to sign in repetition over and over when they sign up, much less understand the implications of said legalese? I love our boys and girls fighting over there and too many of them have come home with flags draped over them, how dare you try to sully the good names of soldiers who do their duty and expect that the military will give them the same respect, you know what? screw this. you are a simpleton with no understanding of what it takes to be a solider in a combat unit, under constant stress in a war that you disagree with. How dare you insult our soldiers, jewelstaitefan? That is what you are doing, calling them cowards because they want the military to honor it's contracts, because they don't even understand what they are fighting for, because they want to be able to see their families. The only war that this can be equated to is Vietnam and you are doing the same thing that the "liberals" did back then. It is just wrong to attack soldiers who have been places and seen things you wouldn't even begin to understand you little panty-waist. Exactly how is it so different from a draft if you are forced to go to war over and over with no possibility of release. You realize that the US Army involuntarily extended my unit until 2025? How would you like you 4 year commitment to turn into a lifetime jackass? Yeah that's right you have no idea what I'm talking about so shut the hell up. For the rest of you, I am no against war, hell I was for the war in Afghanistan, remember that? Likewise I was for Bosnia and I am for moving into Darfur. What the hell though? The jackass in the white house didn't like what he heard from Shinseki so he made him resign and found a lackey who would fight in Iraq. Iraq was and is nothing more than a personal vendetta by a moron who couldn't even hit oil in the desert when he was with a Saudi. This war is illegal, there was no authorization for it and I can not for the life of me understand why we are still there. We have a president who has never been elected (appointed twice, and he lost the popular vote), has been plagued by constitutional breaches, espouses torture and moronic national policies and then doesn't fund them, but he can manage to give tax breaks to big oil, while they are having record profits. If you are so in support of this war and think that the war is the right thing to do then join up and go or shut you mouth. Enough of this troop hating blather trying to make anyone who disagrees with the war a bad guy. As for on topic, show me a war movie made during the same war that was a blockbuster? You can't. All the movies with John Wayne and Clint Eastwood in them are made after the Korean war. Yeah I watched Heartbreak Ridge too...my basic actually had a course named after heartbreak ridge.

So in completion, shut the hell up about things you know nothing about. The only people that have a right to criticize the soldiers are other soldiers. Sure some do bad things and have different opinions than me, but they enemy doesn't care if you are liberal or conservative, they will kill you either way.

When there are no heroes where will we turn?

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Tuesday, April 1, 2008 9:25 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by avengingwatcher:

So in completion, shut the hell up about things you know nothing about.


AVENGINGWATCHER!!!! My new hero!!!!

You go boy Chrisisall

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Tuesday, April 1, 2008 9:27 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:



Oh wait, Serenity didn't do too badly, but then Joss had to dumb that baby down for the multiplexes.

HK....the first thing you've ever said that disappointed me...

Sad Chrisisall

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Tuesday, April 1, 2008 10:46 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I don't understand if you are just kidding or are really that dumb.
Against their will?? Are you saying they signed their contracts against their will? Are you saying they are too stupid to read the contract they signed? Are you saying the Armed Forces should not exercise the contracts that each member voluntarily signed? Are you saying they should be dishonorable and not honor thier commitment, making their word and their signature worthless, meaning they are less than a man? This is ho9w the post-Clinton contracts work. They could just get out by stating they are gay - what's the problem with that, other than being also dishonorable.

Did IQ's drop sharply while I was away? What is so hard to work out about this sentence:
Quote:

and that 81,000 troops have been stop lossed, or in other words had their contracts extended against their will, and were returned to Iraq.
?

His objection wasn't that the soldiers didn't honour their contracts, it's that the Government didn't.

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Tuesday, April 1, 2008 10:49 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
I like to think of it as direct democracy one step further. People would have to make a informed decision and support that choice. Have you read Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers.... there is a line saying they would refuse no volunteers. If you want to serve, a job within your ability will be found for you. Too old for combat service, well someone has to count mess kits and that frees up that guy.

Well, starship troopers didn't show direct democracy, it showed a tacit fascist government. The government controlled who would be voted in, by controlling who would vote.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, April 1, 2008 12:24 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:



Oh wait, Serenity didn't do too badly, but then Joss had to dumb that baby down for the multiplexes.

HK....the first thing you've ever said that disappointed me...

Sad Chrisisall



Quit your pouting, you know it's true.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, April 1, 2008 5:40 PM

SUCCATASH


Quote:

Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
The only people that have a right to criticize the soldiers are other soldiers.



Good post, Avengingwatcher, but I have issues with your closing statement.

If civilian opinion is worthless, than supporting the troops doesn't mean much. I can criticize the president without becoming a president, I can criticize a soldier, or a woman, without having to BE one.

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Tuesday, April 1, 2008 6:20 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
You are OBVIOUSLY not a military person. Let me explain what stop loss means to you since you probably have no idea. It means that they are extended involuntarily BEYOND the length of the contract because as a soldier you actually have no rights. You are officially property in the eyes of the government, which is why when you get in a fight with a solider you are charged with destruction of government property. ALSO there are clauses which are twisted so that your individual unit can deny your ability to leave. I personally know people who have had at least 2 years added to the length of their contract over the 8 years that they sign up for. There is no such thing as a 3 year or 5 year term. It is 8 years no matter what. You do your active term and then active reserve, then inactive reserve your last two years, unless you are active for six years or more, after that it is a breach of contract to stop loss past this. Technically it is illegal under our current law to say that you can serve four year terms, because it is a lie. However, because it is our us military there will never be a repercussion against it. Also what planet are you from? Individual units can decide not to kick you out for being gay, and you have to go through a review board with some possible jail time depending upon your unit. Also just as a point of reason... the armed forces say that you can have terms of service. I actually never found out that you were in for 8 years until well afterwards, there is also a period where you can get out of the military with no negative repercussions, however the military will illegally refuse to let you leave. The fact that the majority of the people who are in the military are at best only high school educated, you can get a waiver for that, how could you honestly expect them to read the hundreds of documents that they are forced to sign in repetition over and over when they sign up, much less understand the implications of said legalese? I love our boys and girls fighting over there and too many of them have come home with flags draped over them, how dare you try to sully the good names of soldiers who do their duty and expect that the military will give them the same respect, you know what? screw this. you are a simpleton with no understanding of what it takes to be a solider in a combat unit, under constant stress in a war that you disagree with. How dare you insult our soldiers, jewelstaitefan? That is what you are doing, calling them cowards because they want the military to honor it's contracts, because they don't even understand what they are fighting for, because they want to be able to see their families. The only war that this can be equated to is Vietnam and you are doing the same thing that the "liberals" did back then. It is just wrong to attack soldiers who have been places and seen things you wouldn't even begin to understand you little panty-waist. Exactly how is it so different from a draft if you are forced to go to war over and over with no possibility of release. You realize that the US Army involuntarily extended my unit until 2025? How would you like you 4 year commitment to turn into a lifetime jackass? Yeah that's right you have no idea what I'm talking about so shut the hell up. For the rest of you, I am no against war, hell I was for the war in Afghanistan, remember that? Likewise I was for Bosnia and I am for moving into Darfur. What the hell though? The jackass in the white house didn't like what he heard from Shinseki so he made him resign and found a lackey who would fight in Iraq. Iraq was and is nothing more than a personal vendetta by a moron who couldn't even hit oil in the desert when he was with a Saudi. This war is illegal, there was no authorization for it and I can not for the life of me understand why we are still there. We have a president who has never been elected (appointed twice, and he lost the popular vote), has been plagued by constitutional breaches, espouses torture and moronic national policies and then doesn't fund them, but he can manage to give tax breaks to big oil, while they are having record profits. If you are so in support of this war and think that the war is the right thing to do then join up and go or shut you mouth. Enough of this troop hating blather trying to make anyone who disagrees with the war a bad guy. As for on topic, show me a war movie made during the same war that was a blockbuster? You can't. All the movies with John Wayne and Clint Eastwood in them are made after the Korean war. Yeah I watched Heartbreak Ridge too...my basic actually had a course named after heartbreak ridge.

So in completion, shut the hell up about things you know nothing about. The only people that have a right to criticize the soldiers are other soldiers. Sure some do bad things and have different opinions than me, but they enemy doesn't care if you are liberal or conservative, they will kill you either way.

When there are no heroes where will we turn?



I agree with much of your post, the three or five year term thing came from Canada, I never read the US contract.

My point about the draft, was it seems people become more informed and more proactive when they have a personal stake... it seems to me that the public in the US has lost interest in this conflict, content to point fingers while serious bullshit policy trap good people into something they don't support.

Another thing this movie implied was the lack of support returning troops received to get their heads straight. Currently Canadian troops returning from Afghanistan are sent to Cyprus on the way home for a few weeks of " decompression " where they can destress in a controlled atmosphere and be assessed for PTSD. I believe the British also use a similar system. The movie implied that US troops are returned directly to their bases and are sent off on leave almost immediately.... I don't know if this is truely the case.

The military is not to blame for this fiasco, but they will continue to take the short end of the stick until the government is bitch slapped for their actions...

unfortunately, governments never admit when they are wrong...





The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Tuesday, April 1, 2008 6:27 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
I like to think of it as direct democracy one step further. People would have to make a informed decision and support that choice. Have you read Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers.... there is a line saying they would refuse no volunteers. If you want to serve, a job within your ability will be found for you. Too old for combat service, well someone has to count mess kits and that frees up that guy.

Well, starship troopers didn't show direct democracy, it showed a tacit fascist government. The government controlled who would be voted in, by controlling who would vote.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.



I was referring to my idea of if you vote to support the war you could be on the draft list when I said direct democracy, the line from starship troopers was only meant to suggest that they could draft anyone who supports this cause, regardless of age or ability. Imagine Hero sent to Iraq, with his background as a prosecutor he could be assigned to investigate any number of incidents...



The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Tuesday, April 1, 2008 9:59 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I don't understand if you are just kidding or are really that dumb.
Against their will?? Are you saying they signed their contracts against their will? Are you saying they are too stupid to read the contract they signed? Are you saying the Armed Forces should not exercise the contracts that each member voluntarily signed? Are you saying they should be dishonorable and not honor thier commitment, making their word and their signature worthless, meaning they are less than a man? This is ho9w the post-Clinton contracts work. They could just get out by stating they are gay - what's the problem with that, other than being also dishonorable.

Did IQ's drop sharply while I was away? What is so hard to work out about this sentence:
Quote:

and that 81,000 troops have been stop lossed, or in other words had their contracts extended against their will, and were returned to Iraq.
?

His objection wasn't that the soldiers didn't honour their contracts, it's that the Government didn't.



No, the government honored the contract. The contract is an 8 year contract. The contract states that (for most enlistees) their "active duty" portion is for a specified amount of time, such as 2 years or 3, 4, 6 years, and I think 8 years active duty contracts are no longer, but I'm not sure. The remainder of the 8 years is called "inactive duty" from which the Service can, at any time which the Congress approves, can convert to "active Duty", or extending the "active duty" portion within the parameters of the contract. Your option to "not volunteer" ends when you sign the contract to be subjected to the inactive recall utilized in the "stop loss" procedure.
The contract is written in English. When I read my contract (4 years active, 4 years inactive) I asked questions to more fully understand the parts I thought I understood, but was give better clarification of. If you don't understand what you are signeing, you shouldn't sign it.
And for those whiners complaining that the contract is in legalese, sorry, but that is written in English, and don't blame us if you are illiterate.
For those whiners comlaining that us United States Veterans should not talk about what we know while you are spewing lies in this thread, you should be ashamed of yourself.
There are a number of ways the Armed Forces can activate inactive reserves (called "extending duty" in this thread). One is if you commit a crime - you can have 20 years of hard labor at Leavenworth even after your 8 year contract expired. All the provisions of possible potential extentions and recalls and activation of inactive reserves are spelled out in your contract.
For those of you complaining that the government exercised the contractual provisions in the contracts signed by the enlisted personnel, that is a dishonorable view of those trying to get out of their contractual obligations.
For those who say they are compelled to fulfill their contractual obligations "against their will" you must realize it was "their will" which lead them to sign the contract, and attempting to evade the contractual obligations 4 or 6 years later is a poor excuse. This would more commonly be called "weaseling out of" their end of the bargain. They made a deal, signed a contract with all these provisions and possibilities and potentialities, and now they think they should be able to weasel out of it? The Services cannot predict at any point in time what wars, conflicts, or other strifes will occur in the upcoming 4 years or 8 years, therefore each of these contracts include the provisions and clauses detailing what will happen, and which authority must enact approving actions - usually the Congress must enact specific language for these contractual clauses to become effective. You should be happy to know your Democrat controlled Congress has been doing just that.

Additionally, if these morons were so intent on sleeping through American History class that they failed to notice that not one single 20-year period of American History has passed without a Military conflict where an American Serviceman was killed, the you should also not blame us - we did not sleep through, and we knew our Service obligations - and we served their entirety.
For the government to exercise the provisions of the contract "against the will" of the servicemember is not very dishonorable - it is what I would expect the government to do. And so should you.

Although I'm fairly sure most of this does not apply to Congressionally Commissioned Officers, I am not certain of that.

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 10:38 AM

ASIANSOLO


There always be movies that people do not like or about subjects that are unliked, take Broke Back Mountain. Not everyone likes gays.
I serviced for twenty-three years in the military, now I am a first responder and firefighter. I was in Iraq a few days after the start of the war. Been to Korea, where the war never really ended, Bosina where I saw people run out of villages because they were of a driffent ethnic group.
I am glad that I do not live in that type of country, the US is not perfect but is it better than most.Be thankful for the service members, for they (no matter how long they serve) make it possible to have these types of discussions. Look at other countries where the freedom of speech is not allowed.

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