REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Polygamist Pedophiles and Papal Pontifications

POSTED BY: DEADLOCKVICTIM
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 15:32
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Friday, May 2, 2008 2:49 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
In the coming weeks there will be mass arrests of both the abusing men and the "batterred-wife-syndrome" zombie wives who provided enablement and structure for these vile acts.


I'm just curious how the men are automatically abusing by default. It reeks of how the mothers always win child custody cases, no matter how much off their rocker they are when they're not composing themselves for the trials, unless the father has a hell of a lot of money and gets a great lawyer. Problem is there, if she got half the cash, she can get just as good a lawyer and likely will spend much more on a lawyer because oftentimes she has no idea how to manage money.

If this is a brainwashing cult, aren't the men involved victims of brainwashing tactics since childhood themselves too? I just think it a funny double standard that women have here, especially considering that "psychos" can get out of a murder rap with an insanity plea, and even relatively sane people can get off with a temporary insanity plea.

My step-sister was murdered by her boyfriend in a resturant parking lot in her car before I ever even met her. I've only heard stories about her and how great and caring person she supposedly was. It was a crime of passion and when she decided that she was going to leave him and go away to college, he decided that if she wasn't going to live with him that she wasn't going to live period.

That guy ain't in prison anymore... hasn't been for quite a while, assuming that he didn't go kill another girl. Surely, if the alleged men involved were partaking in something that had been going on for likely generations and had been so far separated from the "real world" that it was perfectly okay for them, some sort of leinancy should be shown and some kind of understanding and forgiveness for their actions.

Just remember people.... IF this all really did in fact happen the way that the knee-jerkers in here said that it did, the boys in this cult, for lack of a better word, who themselves became the men in this cult, were just as indoctrinated into the way of life there that the girls were.

If this really did happen, above all else I think we need to realize this and find some understanding. I don't believe that there was much of any evildoing for the sake of doing evil going on here. This was their way. It might be the wrong way, and it definately is a way that is very foreign to the greater society's way, but it was their way, and I believe that there was love there among many of the people involved. You're going to find truly bad people there, I'm sure, but the same could be said of any gathering of humans, whether it be a spiritual gathering, a social gathering, the workplace, or even someone in your own family and house (murder rates among family members happens to be much higher than one might expect)

It's kinda like the Middle-East, I think. Most of them folk ain't bad. They're just people like you and me trying to make it by in the world and maybe find a moment of happiness and contentment here and there along the way. Only difference is, we were blessed with much more freedom and the ability to have a sense of individuality and to live without the feeling like you're trapped in a cage your entire life when we won the Lotto of Life and woke up one day, thrust from the safety of our womb, crying and shivering and thriving with new life in a doctors hands as he cuts what has been our lifeline for 9 months and hands us to the person who carried us inside of them for 9 months and brought us the miracle that is life.

It just aint' so good for some people after that though. I'm not flat out saying that nothing should have been done to these people, I just think it should be fair and it should have been handled in a way that would project a respectable leadership and deciciveness of what was once and still can be a great symbol and a beacon of freedom in this world, the American Government.

Throwing stones and burning witches isn't the way to go about this now. Don't fall into that trap. All of these people may very well be completely messed up in the head and if we're going to violently thrust them from their womb and assimilate them like Borg, well.... the least we could do is give them the courtesy of a reach-around after giving them such a vile shafting that they shan't soon forget.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, May 2, 2008 3:06 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


6ix- Thank you for that voice of understanding. It should remind us to apply compassion and understanding, because anger and vengeance generally don't change anybody for the better.

That being said, there ARE perpetrators in the system as well as many victims. The perps, by and large, are those who benefit the most. They have lived much of their adult lives rewarded by the system they created, and that life-long lesson (If I behave like "X" I will get "Y") will be hard to change. Ideally, the best way to handle this is not to "break" the community- which leaves a powerful emotional and psychological void- but to place it under those who were non-abusers. As a second choice, children and their (non-abusive) parents could be placed in similar style communities (Amish, Mennonites) so they could continue to live a familiar lifestyle.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, May 2, 2008 3:30 AM

CANTTAKESKY


That was a good post, 6ix.

I often think about the issue of abuse and culture. Some cultures definitely are more tolerant of various types of abuse than others. I am Chinese American, so I've had to wrestle a lot with getting a Western education and learning Western standards, and yet being raised at home by abusive Chinese parents. As a kid I had to constantly distinguish between which is simply a cultural difference, and which is true blue abuse.

Not having privacy or your own room is cultural. Having your parents take the money you earn from work or read your private mail is bad parenting, but ultimately culturally tolerated. Getting beaten by electric cords is abuse. Being told one is worthless is abuse. Abuse is like obscenity. It is subjective to a point; but past that point, it's just obvious. You know abuse (or obscenity) when you see it. Physical beatings (beyond the pat on the butt), emotional denigration, and sex with powerless and dependent minors are just obviously abuse, culture not withstanding.

There is no doubt in my mind that many people in this community committed flagrant child abuse. I don't think anyone on this list disputes that. It is HOW the abuse problem should be solved that is debated. I pretty much agree with Frem on this one.

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Friday, May 2, 2008 4:08 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Links or it didn't happen.


I prefer patties. Anyhow...read a paper, watch the news...it's all coming out. Rationalizing & pontificating endlessly is pointless. Being contrary for contrary's sake is boring.

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Friday, May 2, 2008 4:15 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Well, apparently they got the abuse among the boys sorted out rather fast in spite of the knee-jerk bullshit lies they bait gullible fools like Jong with...

Maybe you haven't kept up with current events there Jong, but I've shredded every one of those deliberate shine-jobs handed to the press to enrage the gullible before the dust even settled, and this latest is no different.

Most of it is indeed the usual run of the mill scratch and dent stuff which happens to active kids, as opposed to the console-jockey couch potato kids of the more mainstream societies.

And some of it was abuse not by adults, but by the older boys upon the younger, which is a typical and expected thing occuring within any authoritarian, heirarchial society with limited supervision - a kind of nasty pecking order mentality that's part and parcel of such a model and CFBR is apparently addressing in spite of the State being rather annoyed at them for not playin ball with the witch hunt.

And the TX authorities went to the Feds and asked them to throw in, to which the Feds, in the person of Kirk Torgenson flat out told them there just wasn't enough probable cause to go on this one, and hasn't been since 2003, while bemoaning the difficulty of spying on folk who mistrust the oh so benevolent State.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695275674,00.html
It does comfort me to hear the Feddies announce a clear respect for and intent to follow the regs and laws, while subtle chiding the TX authorities and FBI in a discreet fashion.

Speakin of which.....

One reason for the FLDS's dislike and distrust from the state stems from something no one felt fit to inform ME of until very late yesterday, but ought to be mentioned - these folk have gone through this same wringer before.

Just before dawn on July 26, 1953, 102 Arizona state police officers and soldiers from the National Guard entered Short Creek. The community—which was composed of approximately 400 Mormon fundamentalists—had been tipped off about the planned raid and were found singing hymns in the schoolhouse while the children played outside. The entire community was taken into custody, with the exception of six individuals who were found not to be fundamentalist Mormons. Among those taken into custody were 236 children. One hundred and fifty of the children who were taken into custody were not permitted to return to their parents for over two years, and some parents never did regain custody of their children.

And no charges were ever filed.

In light of that incident and this one, I am beginning to rethink my stance on the idea of "gearing up", since certain OTHER folks who did so have experienced an *immediate* reduction in overall hasslement by local authorities.

Make of that what you will, but I still think mutually assured destruction and nihilistic scorched earth are damn stupid cards to play against superior forces capable of calling your bluff, Waco was evidence enough of that - but I am a schemer, not a religous devotee, and some of them folk WOULD rather fry and die than lay down and take something like this from the State...

And they made that abundantly clear via recent purchases despite my advice against - but I might well be wrong in this because that *did*, at least so far have the desired effect in forestalling local aggression against them, and as long as they comply with the law, who am I to tell them not to bear arms ?

It does make me nervous though, considering just how badly that could go.

As for FLDS, it's wait and see, supposedly there's a hearing today, but the State having reneged on several already, nobody is expecting much, and unless they find enough cause to file some charges soon, it's going to unravel on them, especially with them still trying to deny Swinton made the original call - cause at that point the whole house of cards comes down and the lawsuits start flying.

Of course, not like the authorities care, it ain't their money that pays those, it's yours and mine.


-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, May 2, 2008 4:19 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Just for you Jong, since like many of your ilk, you seem to suffer temporary illiteracy when someone prints something you do not want to believe.

FLDS adults not suspected of abusing boys
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5747898.html

"State authorities are investigating whether younger boys taken from a polygamist ranch in West Texas were sexually abused by older boys, not adults, a state official clarified Thursday."

Let me translate that for you.
"Ok, yes, we lied to whip up more hysteria and you caught us, oops."

Almost every press release so far has been outright bullshit - you'd think after six or seven that sensible folk might get a LITTLE skeptical, yes ?

-F

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Friday, May 2, 2008 4:51 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Just for you Jong, since like many of your ilk, you seem to suffer temporary illiteracy when someone prints something you do not want to believe.

FLDS adults not suspected of abusing boys
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5747898.html

"State authorities are investigating whether younger boys taken from a polygamist ranch in West Texas were sexually abused by older boys, not adults, a state official clarified Thursday."

Let me translate that for you.
"Ok, yes, we lied to whip up more hysteria and you caught us, oops."

Almost every press release so far has been outright bullshit - you'd think after six or seven that sensible folk might get a LITTLE skeptical, yes ?

-F

Where is your head most of the time?...In the sand , or up your ass? You are a total whack job freak who envisions a world you've manifested in your little head. A sad little misguided fool at best, a useful idiot agent of chaos at worst.

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Friday, May 2, 2008 4:55 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Where is your head most of the time?...In the sand , or up your ass? You are a total whack job freak who envisions a world you've manifested in your little head. A sad little misguided fool at best, a useful idiot agent of chaos at worst.
OOOH HOOO! Now Jongsstraw is coming out with his very best argument: name-calling!

Oh yeah, that's a convincing point!

NOT


---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, May 2, 2008 5:14 AM

FREMDFIRMA


I do believe you have mistaken my head for your own, but never fear, my boot will be happy to keep it company.

Of course, that's probably a bit too cerebral for you, but that makes it even funnier.

-F
*Edit: And the hilarity of calling an Anarchist an "agent of chaos" as an insult is no doubt lost on you as well.

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Saturday, May 3, 2008 6:35 AM

REAVERMAN


Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

Surely, if the alleged men involved were partaking in something that had been going on for likely generations and had been so far separated from the "real world" that it was perfectly okay for them, some sort of leinancy should be shown and some kind of understanding and forgiveness for their actions.


You're shittin' me, right? Most sociopaths that go around killing people have had something, or a series of somethings happen to them in childhood that fucks with their ability to distinguish right from wrong. By your logic, we should stop prosecuting serial killers, because most of them don't see their actions as wrong.

Quote:
Just remember people.... IF this all really did in fact happen the way that the knee-jerkers in here said that it did, the boys in this cult, for lack of a better word, who themselves became the men in this cult, were just as indoctrinated into the way of life there that the girls were.


So were the Hitler Youth. Didn't stop us from "persecuting" their beliefs, did it?

Quote:
If this really did happen, above all else I think we need to realize this and find some understanding. I don't believe that there was much of any evildoing for the sake of doing evil going on here.


There rarely ever is. Everyone sees themselves as moral, whether they're raping girls for their "prophet", or gassing jews for their fuhrer.

Quote:
This was their way. It might be the wrong way, and it definately is a way that is very foreign to the greater society's way, but it was their way, and I believe that there was love there among many of the people involved.


My God, that is such a pussy line. Fuck their way. If they're on U.S. soil, then they will follow U.S. law, or they will get the fuck out.

Quote:
All of these people may very well be completely messed up in the head and if we're going to violently thrust them from their womb and assimilate them like Borg, well.... the least we could do is give them the courtesy of a reach-around after giving them such a vile shafting that they shan't soon forget.


Let me reiterate: Fuck 'em .

Assimilating them is exactly what we should do, not the pansy PC way the State has gone, sending them to foster parents who will be sensetive about their ridiculous faith. Wipe their cult from the face of the Earth. Lock up their religious leaders where they can't spread their message, burn their "holy" texts, and ensure that from this point on, no human being will be enslaved by their fundamentalist lunacy ever again.


----------------------------
"O' course, ya couldn't buy an invite with a diamond the size of a testicle, but luckily I got my hands on a couple." -Badger

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Saturday, May 3, 2008 5:48 PM

FREMDFIRMA


I'm down with that on one condition.

I get to start with you mainstream christian fucks first.

Believe me, I would be MORE than happy to even *kill* the whole fucking lot of you, Christians, Muslims, Zionistas, and every goddamn "true-believer" on the planet who thinks they have some kind of divine fucking right to force their morals and beliefs down the throat of everyone else.

I would riverdance with glee as the bodies hit the floor, never you doubt it for a moment.

But I would never, EVER, not in a million years try to force my standards, morals or beliefs down their throats, because you know what - I consider that to be worse.

And it is this one tiny thing, that nobody seems to understand, that has me in the very unenviable position of actually defending folk I despise THAT much, so wholeheartedly and without reservation.

You got a right to believe what you believe, but you AIN'T got no right to force that shit on anyone else, or attempt to revoke someone else's right to believe - you can judge them on their ACTIONS, you can charge them for their actions if they are criminal, but you must prove that in a court of law, not put their BELIEFS on trial which is what has happened here.

Might I remind you that the original bullshit warrant that sparked this was pitched out like the worthless trash it truly was today, and of course the State means to cover it's ass, but that and the lack of charges leaves them nothing ELSE to hold against these folk but their beliefs.

They have punished them without a trial, or even the accusation of a crime, a form of persecution most folk whine about only when they are on the recieving end, and crow about when they are on the giving end, a disgusting and revolting bit of hypocrisy that shows the true nature of these monstrous beliefs in a hideous "deity" who slaughters and tortures the innocent for amusement.

You can believe in it all you want, just as I can believe the world would be a far better place without you lunatics - and I'd even stand up FOR your right to believe it.

But the moment you propose taking that right away from others - YOU should lose it first, period.

Of course, if yer like most folk I am just wasting words, cause they hold even to their own supposed morals only when it is safe and convenient to do so....

Just to make sure you truly understand, loud and clear.

I feel the same way about FLDS as you do, and to be blunt, I feel the exact same way about YOU.
The DIFFERENCE is, FLDS never openly proposed to strip an entire faith of it's legal rights for the sake of their beliefs, you have, and this makes you WORSE in my eyes than anything they have ever done.

How would you like someone proposing to do THIS...
Quote:
Assimilating them is exactly what we should do, not the pansy PC way the State has gone, sending them to foster parents who will be sensetive about their ridiculous faith. Wipe their cult from the face of the Earth. Lock up their religious leaders where they can't spread their message, burn their "holy" texts, and ensure that from this point on, no human being will be enslaved by their fundamentalist lunacy ever again.

To YOUR equally "ridiculous" faith ?

Cause I'd have NO problem with that at all.

So, if you want it done to FLDS, then let's be fair about it - we start with YOU, do unto them second and work our way down the list.

Still sound like a good idea, you twit ?

And as a final note, how the hell can you claim respect for our country and it's laws on one hand, and then propose something right out of Joe fucking Stalins playbook on the other ?

You don't defend your county by pissing on everything that makes it worth defending, moron.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 4:46 AM

REAVERMAN


Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I'm down with that on one condition.

I get to start with you mainstream christian fucks first.


Are you including me in "you mainstream Christian fucks"? I suppose I could see how it would look that way. I'm an Atheist. I would just as soon see what I talked about done to all of the militant religions out there, not just these pathetic little fringe cults.

Quote:
Believe me, I would be MORE than happy to even *kill* the whole fucking lot of you, Christians, Muslims, Zionistas, and every goddamn "true-believer" on the planet who thinks they have some kind of divine fucking right to force their morals and beliefs down the throat of everyone else.


Amen.

Quote:
But I would never, EVER, not in a million years try to force my standards, morals or beliefs down their throats, because you know what - I consider that to be worse.


Meh, I have to disagree there. You can live a perfectly happy life with someone else's moral standards rammed down your throat (we all do, anyway; did you ask society to tell you what's acceptable and what isn't, cause I sure as hell didn't), but if you kill 'em, they're just dead.

Quote:
You got a right to believe what you believe, but you AIN'T got no right to force that shit on anyone else, or attempt to revoke someone else's right to believe...


You see, we seem to differ in opinion on just where a "right" comes from. You seem to think that everyone automatically has these rights. I don't believe that. Rights are taken, not given. If you have the capability to do something and get away with it, say killing someone, for instance, then you have a choice. You can either claim the right through action and do it, or you can leave it and walk away.

Did the American colonists sit around and wait for something to give them their rights? No. They chose, and acted, claiming the right to self-governance through killing those who would take it away.

Quote:
Might I remind you that the original bullshit warrant that sparked this was pitched out like the worthless trash it truly was today, and of course the State means to cover it's ass, but that and the lack of charges leaves them nothing ELSE to hold against these folk but their beliefs.


Might I remind you that I don't care. It's their beliefs that I held against them from the start. Forcing young girls to marry and have children? Yeah, that's a big deal, but where did that practice come from? Their beliefs. Eliminate the cause, their beliefs, and you eliminate the effect, their crimes.

Quote:
They have punished them without a trial, or even the accusation of a crime, a form of persecution most folk whine about only when they are on the recieving end, and crow about when they are on the giving end, a disgusting and revolting bit of hypocrisy that shows the true nature of these monstrous beliefs in a hideous "deity" who slaughters and tortures the innocent for amusement.


Really, hypocrisy has little to do with human beliefs, and more to do with human nature. All people believe their opinions are right. We wouldn't keep them if we didn't. And all people like to see what they view as wrong punished, whether it has any religious significance or not. And no one likes to have their opinions, the "right" ones attacked.

Quote:
Of course, if yer like most folk I am just wasting words, cause they hold even to their own supposed morals only when it is safe and convenient to do so....


True, true. I am as big a liar and hypocrite as anyone else, I can admit that.

Quote:
...To YOUR equally "ridiculous" faith ?

Cause I'd have NO problem with that at all.


I don't have any faith for you to do that with, though I suppose you could try it the other way around and indoctrinate me into one of the many idiotic little religions out there.

Quote:
Still sound like a good idea, you twit?


Actually, yes, it still does. And no, I'm not just saying that to be contrary, I really don't see the problem with what I've proposed. I understand why others would take issue with it, but I have a completely different ethical system from most other people.

Quote:
And as a final note, how the hell can you claim respect for our country and it's laws on one hand, and then propose something right out of Joe fucking Stalins playbook on the other ?


Easily. I respect the rule of law. That doesn't mean I agree with every law. Since the persecution I would like to inflict on the world's militant religions (really just the militant ones. I have no problem with buddhists, even though I think their religion is a crock, because they aren't as inclined to causing problems as Christians, Jews, or Muslims) isn't legal, and there's no way I could get away with it, I obviously won't be acting on it. If it was, though I would do it in a heartbeat.

And as for Joe Stalin, I have no problem with you comparing me to him. The only issue I have with the man is that he was too paranoid, and he had too little restraint. His ruthlessness could have been much better directed.


----------------------------
"O' course, ya couldn't buy an invite with a diamond the size of a testicle, but luckily I got my hands on a couple." -Badger

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 3:32 PM

FREMDFIRMA


That is a very interesting response, and would that I currently had time to discuss these concepts at length, although I think we should split that discussion off into another thread if we do cause it's obviously going to veer pretty far off topic.

Me, I am not an Atheist, nor especially militant save in defense of the right to believe what one wishes and act upon it in accordance with respect to applicable law.

It's just that I find myself in a position where my own morality is forcing me to defend folk I would rather see wiped off the planet as a proxy variation on self-defense - cause if you let this kind of crap go when it happens to others, sooner or later that chicken is comin home to roost.

And I think from your responses that you understand that, and the incredible frustration of both having to defend them, and doing so in the face of folk who do not understand the reasons why.

Feel free to initiate a thread specific to the concepts and whatnot we've discussed, and I'll endevour to get to it when I can - there's a LOT of paperwork drudge goin on here and not half enough folk or time to do it, mind.

-F

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Monday, May 5, 2008 1:38 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Frem- my guess is that charges won't be filed until they can straighten out the DNA... who fathered whom by which girl. But based on the number of underage pregnancies (past and current) there seems to be evidence of many crimes. What's not helpful is the sect's practice of lying and covering up for the perps, pretty much making everyone accessories after the fact, neh?

Also, in abuse cases it's fairly common to remove children from the home BEFORE charges are filed for child's safety. Now, that policy may give you heartburn but to claim the parents are being punished without charges being filed is to insist in NEW child-abuse policy, changing the rules in the middle of the game so to speak. So if you don't like that policy in general, then have a beef with THAT, in general- and not get all cranky about this specific case.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Monday, May 5, 2008 4:33 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Given the history of the State's involvement, harrassment, the events of 1953 and the way this has come about - I do not whatever blame them for not cooperating with the State, especially when the State has not even played by it's own rules for the most part.

If the State can change the rules in the middle of the game, than it's not beyond the pale to suggest that perhaps those rules should not be as fixed as them claim, since the State seems able to violate them at whim without penalty.

By Texas LAW, as stated and quoted above, the State legally HAS to return the children.

Have they done that ?

And yes, I realize not bending the knee and sucking up complicates matters for them, but I can damned well see why they wouldn't - previous history tells me that a lot of folk won't be getting their kids back innocent or not, and they know that as well as anyone, so it would not be out of sorts to suggest that perhaps they don't TRUST the almighty, all knowing, omnipresent and benevolent State to do right by them.

If someone with clear intent to rob you asked you how much money you were carrying, would YOU be honest with them ?

And yes, I am fairly certain they might have some actual charges to be levelled, but how they would prosecute them legally after having violated the hell out of their own laws to obtain that evidence I couldn't tell you.

As I have stated before, I know how this is going to go at this point, regardless of how outrageous or illegal, simply because of the stupidity and gullibility of the folks whipped up into a witch hunt posse with the help of the media acting as an accomplice by printing statements so distorted or ficticious that six minutes of any kind of investigation would prove them base falsehoods.

And while I would like to see the guilty punished and the rest of this damn travesty ended, it's not going to happen that way unless I get my hands on a lot bigger and better legal or political crowbar than I got at this time.

My continuing concern is further abuses against others using these same tactics, and the response from folks who, having witnessed this, and seeing that their only recourse against it is violent force, choose a nihilistic solution when such is pressed against them.

Waco proved that if you engage the authorities, you will die.

El Dorado proved that if you cooperate with the authorities, you will lose all you have up to and including your family.

What message do you think THAT jammed into the closed minds of reclusive, fundamental religious types but that when it comes to their door, the only thing do to is to stand, aye and die ?

It's quite unlikely that the next time an incident like this happens, that they will even be able to negotiate, that well has been poisoned good and deep here, and I fear for the results.

Take it to the logical conclusion - what happens when it comes to that, and a slaughter happens, and angry members of the State pissed that folks dared defy them team up with a media content to publish their press releases as if it were the word from on high ?

What then happens to MY people ?

I know enough history to not like the answer to that question.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 5:07 AM

SERGEANTX


I avoided this thread like the plague. Scanning it briefly tells me my hunch was right. Buncha giddy titillation masquerading as righteous indignation. The point of this whole affair was all too familiar. YOU WILL LIVE THE WAY THE GOVERNMENT TELLS YOU TOO!

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 5:51 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Some things have come to light during the endless drudging of all this paperwork and sorting and what's protected and what's not and yadda freakin yadda....

I am seeing a pattern here of 2-3 individuals exploiting this belief system for personal gain, profit and prestige, and hell yes, Jeffs is one of em - I will not, in fact can not, legally, name the others, but apparently much if not all of the problems stem from this small group of bastards who've let the whole of FLDS swing as cover for their own misdeeds while they either cover their ass or head for the hills.
(NOT happenin, now that we're aware.)

THOSE assholes are gonna fry, in fact I am hoping the State doesn't charge them cause the States case won't hold up when the evidence is tossed cause of a bad search - on the other hand, being that much of the evidence in the hands of us sorting it here was freely given, damned incriminating, and not client-clergy privledged, WE can turn and burn these bastards and it might *stick*.

But if the State tries them and blows it, that prevents us from doing so due to the double-jeopardy clause, at least this time around.

I also question the competence of State investigators because most, if not all of this info was in other forms publicly available and would not have been hard to put together at all, I suspect that some folks knew who the bad actors were but went blanket party on it anyway for reasons one can only speculate.

Now having a clearer view of the matter, I can state with certainty that what we have done here is punish the victims, unfairly and collectively, instead of the bad actors, who are more than likely going to walk without a good bit of finesse - but puttin em away still isn't gonna rectify the tremendous emotional damage and trauma the State has inflicted on their victims on top of it.

Doesn't mean I ain't gonna try to get it done though - sorry if that's a bit cryptic, there's legal limits to how much I can say if we wanna pursue this, and boy do I ever wanna, given how they not only fucked over the FLDS, but provoked the State into fucking over the FLDS as well.

-F

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 6:11 AM

SERGEANTX


It's good, I suppose, that you're digging into what's really going on. But if you take a few steps back, you have to see the hypocrisy here. By the standards being applied, the state of New Jersey would send the National Guard into Camden and seize all the children "for their protection". But this really isn't about protection. It's the state carefully choosing a way to make a statement. They pick stuff like this, where there's children, religion, or sex involved (triple play here) and use it as an excuse to put the word out. Live the way they say or else.

Listen to the fallback position of the people in a hissy over this. Their main beef is with polygamy and the weird way these people choose to live. The child protection issue is mostly a convenient excuse.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 6:50 AM

FLETCH2


Nah. I don't care about the polygamy angle, if they can make it work and they are happy more power to them. The government has no business in the sex lives of consenting ADULTS.

That last bit is the important distinction as far as I'm concerned.

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 4:33 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Oh I am well aware of that, Sarge - problem is without enough popular or political support, all I can currently do on the custody front is throw legal caltrops under the State steamroller to slow it down while working every possible angle, but at THIS point, there's little hope of those folk ever getting their kids back no matter that most of em are innocent, and yeah that burns me pretty good.

Just too many damn fools willing to join the lynch mob, and too few who understand that allowing the rights of others to be violated invites the violation of your own.

It's bloody obvious that the salient point is that the State wanted to smash these folk, and all the rest is bullshit excuses after the fact, but the fanatic State worshippers will no more admit fault on behalf of their diety than the Bush worshippers will, and yeah-verily, I place both of those beliefs in the class of religion cause they require faith in direct opposition to evidence and sense.

But I DO intend to spike these bastards, and see if that buys a little cred I can swing behind popping some of those worse off kids free of the grasping tentacles of the Foster Care System, we're seein a couple of REALLY bad cases of what one might call seperation shock, some of em bad enough to require hospitalisation, and that ain't good at all.

Not to mention some folk within FLDS are starting to realize they've been played, and being under the microscope of the State looking for excuses and unable to act themselves, have indeed requested a little... rectification... of matters.

I have limited resources and personnel, and all on a voluntary basis at that, so I gotta play with table stakes here, you understand.

That being said, given what some of these nimrods have done, I don't whatever feel bad about tossing them to the State as a bone and parlaying that into prying loose some of these kids - it's gotten to the point where the pretenses are being dropped and the dirty-ugly business of REAL negotiation and threats are being exchanged, currently.

They want some heads, and to avoid being buried in big public lawsuits, and we want the parents who are obviously not whatever part of any wrongdoing to get their kids back....

So now it's down to cutting deals, is what it is.

Underneath the fiction and bullshit and technological veneer, this world works on the same principles as any other, and unlike others I refuse to be fooled by the illusion.

Ergo, I prefer to work it rationally, than believe in pie in the sky and that people who outgun me will play by the rules cause the rules say so.

I will get these folk whatever justice I can manage, but in all truth we both know it won't be enough - yet it's better than sitting on my hands pretending Gov knows best, or standing with the lynch mob handing out torches and pitchforks.

-F

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Wednesday, May 7, 2008 9:02 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Just too many damn fools willing to join the lynch mob, and too few who understand that allowing the rights of others to be violated invites the violation of your own.


They'll get it when 10 years after Obama's healthcare mandates for children have the Feds coming and taking ownership of their kids for failure to provide adequate healthcare for their children (which, of course, they won't be able to afford on account of the $10/gal gas, $5 ears of corn, and lets not forget the free pass for the health insurance providers to charge whatever the hell they want since their product is mandated). It's really sad how most folk don't really grasp the concepts of the important stuff until it's far too late.

That's the sound of history repeating itself....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 3:47 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Not much I can share for updates, but here it is.

Still trying to pry loose some of those "minors" who are no such thing, one of which is without a doubt 24 years old, with birth certificate, drivers license, driving record, insurance payments, and credit history to fuckin prove it, and they still won't cut the chain.

Can you IMAGINE being that girl ?

Raided, scared witless, pulled out of a lineup, told you're underage, forced to undergo a no-consent full medical exam, then shoved under the control of "adults" in a foster care setting and treated as horribly as we on average treat kids ?

How would YOU take it ?

There's been at least one fairly violent incident related to that, and man... I can't say I blame her, my own response to that would be lethal if I could manage it - because of the way we consider children subhuman, it's like totally stripping your entire personhood away.

What a friggin nightmare.

There's also, and I KNEW this one was coming, the issue of forced vaccination rearing it's head, so I guess were gonna lose a few to Autism and medical complications, oh joy wonder, the benefits of the oh-so-benevolent state.

Some of the CPS folk, between the legendary rock and hard place, are starting to crack - they are stuck with some seriously conflicting responsibilities and it's taking a heavy toll, not to mention frustration caused by the inability to return children to their parents when that is what the specific case has determined is the best course of action.

The only bright note of that is that the Childtrauma Academy and Bruce Perry's folk are offering secondary trauma counselling to these workers, because we need them even though they are being emotionally ground up.

I don't envy them, being told by the State to do what is right by the child, while simultaneously ordered to take actions they believe are harmful to the mental and emotional health of the child in question and unable to reconcile those two imperatives due to being employed by the State.

That seriously has to suck.

And with the whole forced vaccination thing, it just became a little harder to keep the lid on, since in spite of their reclusiveness many of these folk are NOT stupid, and have scientific/medical objections as well as religious/philosophical ones.

Didn't help matters on other groups who feel they're next up on the chopping block neither, some of whom I had never thought had a violent thought in their whole person have... changed their minds, thanks to this.

-F

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 4:38 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Well....

That whole part of the story reminds me a lot of what River must have gone through...

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, May 9, 2008 4:37 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Amazing - I guess there's much to be said for stockpiling arms in the face of a threat, and I am wondering just how much of a factor that was on recent events.

Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff just pulled a major rabbit out of his hat in helping keep the lid on, apparently he rounded up some officials from Utah and Arizona, then held a meeting with Utah elements of FLDS to try and help stabilize the situation.

"We assure you that we do not plan a raid to end polygamy," Shurtleff said. "I know you're worried about that. We're not going to do it. I don't care how many talking heads on cable television shows tell Terry and I we need to cowboy up and be like Texas. We don't believe that's the answer."

Terry Goddard, the AZ Attorney General, also put his two cents in usefully.

"There are suspicions that some actions are taken because of the defendant's belief and not because of their acts. And I want to assure you, that's not the rule in our office, and as long as I'm attorney general it never will be," Goddard said.

Hearing THAT from an official sources has done wonders in putting a much needed chill on events, thankfully before any stupidity ensued, because some other groups in the meeting made some fairly overt threats - one County Supervisor is gonna be getting a reaming from his boss later today over a few statements more or less threatening Arizona FLDS members with the same type of actions that happened in Texas.

So hearing the AG pull the rug out from under the folks thinking of committing similar "cowboy" actions has helped a lot to cool the situation, thankfully.

Some of the more threatening/hostile officials walked out on the meeting early, visibly angry and that's not really going to encourage anyone to sell off their stockpiles just yet, but without the Attorney Generals support, it's unlikely they'll be able to accomplish much but the petty harrassment that's driven FLDS to isolate itself in the first place.


Shurtleff also threw out a useful compromise on the custody issue.

"Can I just ask, and we're not taking notes, but how many of you have relatives in Texas that are in custody? How many of you would be willing to take them into your home? We think it would be wonderful if that were to happen and we'll continue to try and encourage that," Shurtleff said.

That is a BRILLIANT solution to a really thorny issue, solving in one stroke many of the problems facing both sides at this time.

He's also made it known he's willing to work WITH them and help remove bad actors from their community individually without holding the whole community at fault - and while I don't think the FLDS members fully trust any of these offers yet, keeping his word will do wonders for sorting the situation out in a fashion everyone can agree on.


While not really fond of the State and it's agents, this is a job well done on behalf of Shurtleff and Goddard, and they deserve recognition for that.

I doubt Texas will be as cooperative, but I guess we'll find out, cause placing some of those children with family members in Utah instead of Foster Care will solve a LOT of problems in one clean stroke.

That'll help a lot.

-F

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Friday, May 9, 2008 5:17 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I fell sorry for the labs doing the DNA tests. They are going to be rushed for results, asked to skip important steps, pushed to release preliminary results - which will magically become permanent - and hung out to dry if there are any mistakes or unconfirmed equivocal results. And since the FLDS group has been SOOOooo insular - and inbred (eeewww) - for so long, they'll be a lot of partial matches everywhere. So it'll take really good lab results and a fair bit of time to unscramble the who's who of that FLDS compound.

And until then - when the court knows who's the mom, who's the dad - nothing can happen.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, May 9, 2008 5:49 AM

FREMDFIRMA


That is also a concern of mine - the LAST thing anyone needs here is sloppy work confusing the issue, so if you have any connections in that kind of thing, pass the word on to do the job right even if it takes a bit longer.

I hadn't thought of the genetic similarity causing such a problem, but that's just ever more solid reason to do the job as cleanly as possible.

I can prolly help keep most of the FLDS crowd from jumping the gun, but there's naught I can do about the State pressuring them, alas.

Things are screwed up enough without halfassing the testing, but I have no contacts within that industry myself - perhaps that guy from the innocence project might be of use explaining to folks one both sides the importance of getting it right the first time, I'll shoot an Email and see if he's willing to comment.

Also, thankfully nobody but one newspaper in Dallas has noticed the radical spike in firearms purchases and they've not connected the two matters, but it's causing a really massive backlog of the CCW permit system, requiring some overtime and temp hires to smooth out the flow.

At least they're doing it legally, and I am puttin serious thought into pressuring some of them to get a bulk package on some safety classes, before some nitwit shoots themself in the foot or something.

-F

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Friday, May 9, 2008 6:00 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Frem

"... perhaps that guy from the innocence project might be of use explaining to folks one both sides the importance of getting it right the first time, I'll shoot an Email and see if he's willing to comment."

If you could do that it would be great. I mean it. Unfortunately the individual hearings have been scheduled for a very tight time-frame - to be completed within the next (slightly less than) 4 weeks at this point. So it means that whatever lab is doing the testing has gotta' come up with good results not by shaving the procedures but by putting in all the time to do all the steps - except doing it on evenings, weekends, even nights if possible, as well as regular days. So SOMEBODY has to pony up the $$$$ to make sure it gets done right. That's always the issue.


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, May 9, 2008 6:36 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Actually since USDOJ has had a hand in the case, the $$$ for testing costs (overtime, extra personnel) may be available out of their budget for such things under certain of their own guidelines provided the proper paperwork is filed.

The FBI's budget for this is sucking wind, as usual, but DOJ should be able to cover as they had an active hand in the investigation.

We'll get on that by 2pm today, this kind of assistive coordination is actually our forte, reducing redundancy, cross purposes and miscommunication by a substantial factor.

Should be just a matter of confirming authorization, and getting the correct documents faxed over, filled out and returned to the right people as soon as possible.

I appreciate this being brought to my attention, cause it's a solveable problem I wasn't aware of till this point.

We might be able to shave down some of those hearings is we can place some of the children with family from Utah or Arizona, if substantive documentation of their identity can be dug up and the State will acknowledge it - this is an ongoing problem since they've gone so far as to deny the validity of drivers licenses they themselves had issued, complete with photo, driving record and insurance history, I don't see where and why they wouldn't accept that other than just petty stonewalling.

I'd think a State issued drivers license or ID that's verified by SOUNDEX or whatever they use now with a picture that is a clear match for the individual in question would be good enough till proven otherwise until these results come in, but try telling THEM this...

-F

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008 3:21 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Oh, shit.

Texas eyes another isolated rural cult
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-polygamy14may14,0,5
685847.story

This is NOT good.

Now, ok, yes, if individuals have broken the law, sure - prosecute them.

But given recent events, and the moral cowardice of folks jumping on the lynch mob train in part due to a mainstream media which has, quite frankly, shovelled bullshit by the ton - this has given a green light to further abusive measures against other whole beliefs, as I predicted.

I am hoping against hope that this does not go where I see it going, cause I been sayin all along that the actions of Texas officials had panicked many other reclusive religious factions who felt they might be next up on the chopping block if folks let the FLDS matter slide, which they have.

And now that this perception has been entirely validated, there's absolutely no reasoning with them, none what-so-ever, and many of them are indeed willing to go scorched earth.

Do I really have to detail how badly this can go from here ?

I have another update post behind this one, but being blindsided by this, and having a good deal of support pull right out from under me cause they're fully concerned with saving their own ass now - is really pissin me off.

The lid's come off with a bang, folks, and unless someone puts a stop to this, things WILL go rodeo when it comes to cases.

-F

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008 3:22 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Ok, update - those of you keeping track might be aware that the mental health personnel assigned to FLDS have prettymuch gone ballistic over CPS's repeated and continuous abuse, procedural violations, disrespect for the law, etc.

There's more to it than that - CFBR (Boy's Ranch) has been taking care of the boys on a charitable emergency basis because CPD refuses to compensate them in retaliation for not playing along with the witch hunt, they've been able to provide a secure and theraputic environment mainly due to their ability to force CPS to comply with their own standards when on the property, something CPS is not at all pleased about as they have been looking into moving the boys somewhere else less stringent.

Now, the Hill Country Community Mental Health-Mental Retardation Center personnel, the original mental health personnel assigned to the FLDS matter, are tack-spitting pissed over CPS mistreatment of their charges to a degree of outright abuse.

They watched CPS personnel lie to the mothers, the kids, caught CPS lying to THEM, witnessed abuses and disrespect, a hostile attitude and often downright sheer meanness - they were absolutely horrified and when they finally spoke out...

They were fired, pulled off for showing actual compassion towards folks who in their opinion (and remember these are mental health professionals) were being viciously abused mentally and emotionally by agents of the State.

They've taken it to the regional board and demanded an investigation, stating that they felt CPS was "Out of control".

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700225591,00.html

Like I said, out of the frying pan, into the fire - and now that comes comfirmed with the testimony of eleven mental health professionals, that these children and their parents were done far more harm by the actions of the State than anything faced at YFZ.

As an aside, we've FINALLY started to pry loose some of the adults that CPS has been protesting all along were underage, although in one case even AFTER that acknowledgement, they've held the girl in custody under threat of having her kids torn from her and sent off heaven knows where.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700225827,00.html

One other, just released, with no children of her own, has asked us to begin the paperwork for her to emigrate to Canada, as she "doesn't feel safe" here in the US anymore.

A lot of angry, upset people right now, and what with Texas salivating over potential next targets, a right tenous and dangerous situation exists.

Case or no case, DNA or not - the State has completely abused these people.


And ponder all that has gone before, how other reclusive religious groups may feel watching this, and then hearing TX gleefully announce their next potential target ?

Do you REALLY think many of them are planning to cooperate or negotiate at this point ?

I've called this one dead-bang straight from beginning to end, and now, if you do NOT want a bloodbath, get your ass on the phone to anyone who could *POSSIBLY* level some influance here and push them to use it, before these damn cowboy assholes get a lot of folk killed, and you'd best be quick about it.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008 7:57 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Democratic Republic, actually, which semantic differences happen to be MUCH larger than most uneducated/under educated people would assume.

Democracy - government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.

Democratic Republic - a form of government embodying democratic principles and where a monarch is not the head of state.

We happen to be both a Democracy and a Republic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic
Actually Democracy is an Umbrella term for all governments that are formed through popular vote, including Democratic Republics. I'd note that the wikipedia definition of Democracy doesn't preclude the definition of Democratic Republic. Also the page you linked to for Republic included this:
Quote:
In republics that are also democracies the head of state is selected as the result of an election.
I believe you have elections in the States .

If we took Democracy as a specific, as what the Ancient Greeks meant, there are no modern Democracies anywhere in the world.

Point is, its not a semantic difference. It's the Difference between calling a Ford Focus a 'Ford Car' and a 'Car'. All Democratic Republics are Democracies, but not all Democracies are Democratic Republics .
Quote:
The ancient Greeks were just a democracy.
Erm, the City-State of Athens was a Democracy for some of it's existence. most weren't, Sparta and Corinth for instance.

Also the Democracy Practised in Athens was more similar to that of a Republic, as it was the template for the Roman Republic, which was the template for the American Republic...
Quote:
Then they started pukeing all over the place and had lots of unbridled butt-love right before they fell. Actually.... when put that way, maybe we're not so different from the ancient Greeks afterall. Only time will tell....
The 'butt-love' thing was more a signature of Sparta, which wasn't a Democracy.


More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008 8:54 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM



For anyone interested in the inner workings of the FLDS as told from the point of view of a woman who left the religion, I recommend reading Escape by Carolyn Jessop. I mentioned the book in an earlier post.

After reading this true story I have to say that my eyes were opened to the abuses perpetrated by the male members of this cult. The story she tells may be her own but it shines a light on the lives of the women and children who are often considered mere property by the men who they are "given" to.

I'm not saying that the tactics used by the authorities to separate children from mothers in Eldorado were totally correct, but if their actions enabled someone to leave that life, it may have been worth it.


Escape by Carolyn Jessop, published by Broadway Books.

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008 9:45 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Case or no case, DNA or not - the State has completely abused these people."

I would definitely say that about some people in CPS. But there are too many agencies that did good work and are doing good work to say that about "the State".

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008 9:23 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Not worth it at all, as is clearly evidenced by Texas authorities proclaiming their next target. Stop saying that, everyone. What they did is completely unconstitutional and a tragedy for all of us, each and every American.

Things clearly should have been done to the parties that were actually guilty, but you will never convince clear-minded folk that the umbrella actions of the State were warranted or even desired, and the outcome for these families has been horific and tragic. I'm not going to read an Oprah book club of the month book to change my mind on that either. Might I also add that every single innocient person involved who's life there was upturned and delivered into the shit-storm all of their lives have become have nobody but Mrs. Jessop to thank for their current situation, in that her work got the soccer-mom sympaty force 100% behind the illegal and reckless actions of the State.

BTW... how much money did the author make off that book so far?


Couldn't get a figure of how many books sold or how much money she's making yet, but it is a NY Times Bestseller...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/18/books/bestseller/0518besthardnonfict
ion.html

ESCAPE, by Carolyn Jessop with Laura Palmer. (Broadway, $24.95.) A former member of a fundamentalist polygamous sect describes her forced marriage to a much older man.

Current Position: 5
Last week: 2
Weeks on chart: 6

I hope that she really thought out what she was doing when releasing this book and how many people's lives she might negatively impact. Here's hoping that she can sheild herself from the reality that there are missing and physically injured children because of the raid and that these kids will likely never get over the emotional/spiritual/mental trauma that has been inflicted upon them. Maybe if just one kid was saved from her fate it's all worth it in her mind. I'm sure if she fails to console herself with that knowledge, the millions that are rolling in will allow her to buy a shit-ton of comfort food.


"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008 10:23 PM

FREMDFIRMA


As previously stated and for obvious reasons I am simply not qualified to comment on whether a christian belief or society is abusive or not due to overwhelming bias.

Haven't read the book, but it strikes me that the women have their own set of nastiness and manipulation or at least the potential for it, in such a social structure - so I wouldn't put that all on the men neither, mind you.
(And I find myself wondering if she had the guts to admit that in the book.. I doubt it.)

Now, individual actions - for future legal reasons imma lay off the details on that, I mentioned it above, and you could probably put two and two together from the books contents if you're smart, but I would ask you to NOT publicly comment cause there's a potential case outside of the States total fubar and we might just be able to press it.

Right now my primary concern, however, is averting what is very likely to happen when the State decides to go head to head with some group who's locking and loading for armageddon, since they can no longer count on the Constitution or even State Law to protect them from similar abuses.

And let me be downright flaming blunt...

It's NOT going well, ok ?

Do you really think these folk are going to listen to me now that it's become obvious their utter destruction is the States intent ?

Do you think they'll just stack arms and cooperate after what happened to FLDS ?

And so it comes to this - since they will not listen, tomorrow we're gonna try and convince the State folks what a jackass stupid idea this is, and if THAT fails...

Then we just pull up stakes and let it fuckin happen - and don't expect me to shed one bitter tear for any agent of the State when it does.

-Frem
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
-Henry Louis Mencken

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008 10:34 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Then they'll just make a made-for-TV movie of it all and the big bucks start rolling in. Pissery of the Constitution is a hot commodity these days.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 3:59 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM


6string, Frem - maybe you should take the time to read the book before condemning it and the author.

Jessop tells of life inside the Colorado City FLDS group from her childhood until the time she realizes that her life and the lives of her six children will be forever beyond their own control.

I don't think she wrote the book simply to cash in - and it was written well before the Texas raid -

Look, I have always been pro individualism - live and let live is a personal rule, but to see someone basically brainwashed from childhood to be subservient to a group not of your own choosing seems to do nothing to promote individualism. I'm certainly not against anyone's right to choose what religion or lifestyle they want to follow, but I respect a persons right to make their own decisions and not be led by the nose by some false authority figure...(ditto-heads)...

So, say what you will about Texas law - it is what it is - and these guys love to be enforcers... I don't like to see families broken up any more than you, but cults that break laws must understand that no matter what they believe and practice, there will almost certainly come a time when they will be put into situations where they will face some form of prosecution. Look at the history of Mormonism - these folks seem to thrive on it and in fact use that prosecution as a teaching tool, or I should say a brainwashing tool...

Read the book or not, i really don't care, but before painting the FLDS as a homey little commune like Little House on the Prairie, at least try to understand everything that is involved.

And, 6string - i don't know about Oprah book club of the month, but if a book is worth reading - i will damn well read it... kay?


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Thursday, May 15, 2008 4:57 AM

FREMDFIRMA


I didn't condemn it at all, in fact if the State had left well the hell alone or even played by the rules - it could have sparked all manner of social and moral pressure upon them and inspired folk to take action within the law to discourage or influance that behavior.

I suspect that was probably the idea.

I only pointed out that I was dubious whether she would admit the women in such schemes also have their own pecking orders, social drama, control issues, plots and plans and the like - I've dealt with polygamist folk before and although I will not specify, I do know this.
Quote:
Look, I have always been pro individualism - live and let live is a personal rule, but to see someone basically brainwashed from childhood to be subservient to a group not of your own choosing seems to do nothing to promote individualism. I'm certainly not against anyone's right to choose what religion or lifestyle they want to follow, but I respect a persons right to make their own decisions and not be led by the nose by some false authority figure...

You and me both - of course, I have an issue with the State doing it via public school as much as I do any other cult, that's one reason why I feel the kids lot hasn't really improved much.

CFBR kinda surprised me because they sat the boys down and asked THEM what they wanted to do, how they felt about matters, and where THEY would like it to go from here, CPS might have shit bricks over that, but so far the Boys Ranch folk have really impressed me with their handling of the situation, and I'll be owing some folks in BACA* a case of brew over that one...

As for the rest, I never once painted FLDS as a bunch of innocents, only that the actions of the State were going to be (and eventually WERE) more abusive than anything they faced at YFZ, and in addition to that called this thing dead-bang top to bottom from the bullshit phone call, to the lies and media distortion, to the abusive treatment of the families and finally, Texas authorities choosing to continue this destructive practice if unchecked.

The means to address the problem were already there, within TX Law and CPS policy, all of which were completely violated in spirit and in fact by the State, in a wholesale orgy of destruction visited upon them not for their crimes, but because they were different enough that the general mass of the populace would easily accept their vilification with the help of a compliant media.

There's a big difference between admitting there is a problem and "fixing" it in a way so utterly destructive and counterproductive that no one in their right mind could possibly support it.

Remember, I wanted certain of these folk arrested and tried for specific crimes as individuals before even this, and in spite of sufficient evidence and probable cause, the FBI would not budge one damned inch from their zero-enforcement shell game, which eventually pissed off the USDOJ and things went all cowboy from there - and now that they've had a taste of hoo-rah, they're fiending for more, and eyeballing people who WILL kill some of them rather than be masscared like what happened in Waco, or functionally destroyed like what happened here.

We HAD the ability to do this thing right, the powers that be chose not to do that, instead preferring a public lynching that has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with showing the iron fist of the State in threat to those who would live outside of it's constant nosy nitpicking.

Make no mistake, this is about CONTROL, not justice, and transferring that control from a madman like jeffs to the madmen who spawned this travesty is not a net benefit for those people in my opinion.

I was all for removing the bad actors and pushing to have it done before most of you even heard of FLDS, but in such a way that did the least amount of harm to the least amount of people, and that sure as hell isn't what happened here.

And now I gotta get back on the horn with some folk and try like hell to avert further stupidity by pointing out that not only are they likely to lose some hoo-rah jackboots if they try this stunt on others, but that should they continue it's VERY likely to spawn some other activities they wouldn't be too happy about neither.

Think on this, if they get into a shooting match and subsequent bloodshed with another reclusive religious faction, what are the chances - especially if they announce after that public intent to go after more, that one or more of those factions might decide to retaliate pre-emptively, possibly with explosives ?

Scared people do stupid shit, it's a fact - and they've scared the living hell out of a LOT of folk I don't consider too stable to begin with.

And if you'll excuse me, I gotta try to get across to them the horrors that exist in that can of worms they're trying to pry the lid off right now....

-Frem
*(They bet one case that CFBR would handle it to even MY standards, and I thought it was a sucker bet, little knowing that several members of BACA have been through there and have no complaints.)

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 6:33 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM


Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I didn't condemn it at all, in fact if the State had left well the hell alone or even played by the rules - it could have sparked all manner of social and moral pressure upon them and inspired folk to take action within the law to discourage or influance that behavior.


You may be right about that.
Also, I stand corrected. I re-read your post and note that you did not condemn Ms. Jessop. Sorry -

Quote:
And if you'll excuse me, I gotta try to get across to them the horrors that exist in that can of worms they're trying to pry the lid off right now....


you're excused... good luck with that

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 8:43 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Aaarrgh!



The unoffical position taken by TX officials seems to be..
"Bah!, they wouldn't dare, and even if they did so much the better, saves the trouble of prosecuting them!"

So, at THIS point of matters, for legal reasons there will be absolutely no further discussion of that end of the topic, and any further discussion will focus soley on FLDS and trying to sort out that mess.

One item of note - heard from the folks of the girl who refused the pregnancy test, she's fourteen, mind you.

She finally caved to pressure (not a legal order, just constant hasslement about it) and gave em their damn test, which came up negative, and since they were unhappy with this, demanded she do it again... four more times, till she finally broke down in a squalling ball screaming "What do you WANT from me!!!" before they hauled her off to foster care god knows where.

I'm sure that made a GREAT impression on her and her family.


One family has (successfully) filed a damn restraining order against CPS, and the District Judge not ONLY found they had cause and reason, but has ordered CPS to disclose the whereabouts of their other two children and demanded the hearing required by Texas law - so far CPS has not complied and shows no intent to do so, at this time risking a finding for contempt.
http://sev.prnewswire.com/legal/20080514/LAW05014052008-1.html

And for even more legal jackassery, instead of properly serving the papers, they went to a blanket notice in the newspaper, and if you'll pardon the voice of experience speaking it's very likely those hearings will be deliberately held in places and at times selected to make it more difficult for the parents to attend.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700226177,00.html

On top of that they made the mistake of leaving their so-called individual family services plans where members of the public had access, thus resulting in certain less biased newsies getting a copy.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700225988,00.html

The Deseret News obtained copies of some of the family service plans from several different sources. Each had identical paragraphs and essentially said the same thing. Texas CPS officials characterize it as a "template" that was leaked, and not the official plans that will be submitted to the courts.


And I do believe Mr Parker is right in calling a spade a spade here.


The recommendations obtained by the Deseret News make no mention of any requirements for the parents to leave the FLDS faith, or explicitly say to move off of the YFZ Ranch. But an attorney representing the FLDS Church said they are underlying themes.

"A safe living environment sounds just fine, but what they mean is get off the ranch," said Rod Parker. "It asks the parents to admit many of the false premises this raid was based on."


Also mentioned is the euphamistic "Psychiatriac Evaluation" - gee, how would YOU like to undergo one of those at the hands of a pyschiatrist who, being employed by the State, has a certain inclination to see things the way the State wants them to ?

Kind of like those doctors that the MD Public School system reccommends, like Richard Bacharach, that have this most interesting habit of diagnosing ADD and prescribing Ritalin 100% of the time the school reccommends they "evaluate" a kid.

Perhaps they should ask those people down at Hill Country Community Mental Health-Mental Retardation Center to do the evaluation - oh wait, that's right, they didn't quite see things eye to eye with the State and wound up bounced from the job for it....
BTW - The actual text of those accounts is available in PDF format HERE.
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9238520?IADID=Search-www.sltrib.com-www.sltri
b.com
I DO suggest you read them, and remember these are trained and credentialed mental health personnel making these statements.

I stand by my words - while a FEW individuals within the system have become appalled at what is going on and have chosen to assist as is within their power, as a whole the State HAS abused these folk and continues to do so.

And when them hearings come, if they don't pre-stack the deck by selecting rubber-stamp judges like Walther, then they damn well better have all their ducks in a row, and they better not blink - cause we'll cut em to pieces.

In fact I would lay good odds there will be one or more findings of contempt against CPS before this is over, VERY good odds.

We've not forgotten the bad actors, but our current priority is to reunite the families who haven't done a damn thing wrong and have been abused by the State merely for the sake of their beliefs - and we will NOT assist in the prosecution of those bad actors until the State has unfucked the situation to our satisfaction.

They make a good faith effort to correct the damage they're wrought, then and only then will we talk about it - a lot of folk who'll never get credit or mention have done a legions work of putting the arm on and forcing the State to finally at least pretend compliance with their own laws and regs, and for that they deserve honors they'll likely never see.

But we will not forget, ever.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 9:49 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
... which eventually pissed off the USDOJ and things went all cowboy from there - and now that they've had a taste of hoo-rah, they're fiending for more, and eyeballing people who WILL kill some of them rather than be masscared like what happened in Waco, or functionally destroyed like what happened here.
Frem, are you saying that these gun-buying folk would be saying "Well, that's different!" if the YFZ ranch had been emptied on a plainly valid warrant?

I doubt it. They prolly wouldn't accept the action with or without a valid warrant since they prolly don't accept the authority of the State to define crime, and they don't strike me as being paperwork people. The State may have blown their case or portions of their case with their handling of the FDLS - or not, that remains to be see- but the State prolly hasn't lost credibility with these people you keep referring to because I doubt there was any to begin with.

Whether taking the children away from YFZ was done with or without a valid warrant, they'd be buying guns anyway.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, May 16, 2008 2:27 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Deadlockvictim

I've never once painted the FLDS as Little House on the Prarie, and your entire post pisses me off as much as Rue saying that I support pedophilia en masse. It's just plain bullshit.

Show me the history of Mormanism. Show me the history of Mormanism that isn't written by somebody who obviously hated it there and probably was one of the abused. Show me the history of Mormanism that isn't talked about on cable news shows 24 hours a day. Have you read their scriptures? Do you know anything about them but hearsay that you can truly judge the community as a whole?

What you're talking about here is racism through religious intolerance.

It would be like me saying that every Muslim in the world wants to kill everyone in America because that's what I heard Bill O'Riley say the Queran tells them to do. Granted, I don't want Obama being president because I fear his background in light of current events in the world, but I wouldn't tell anyone he should be deported or locked up because of his beliefs.

And for the sake of argument, let's just hypothetically say that the brainwashing you speak of is community wide and everyone growing up in it is screwed from birth to be zombies of the church. How dare you make villians of the men in the community who were brainwashed along with all of the girls when they were boys?

I can't even discuss this with you because your biases are so obscenely obtuse.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, May 16, 2008 5:36 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM


Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I can't even discuss this with you because your biases are so obscenely obtuse.


I think you are reading more into my post than is actually there - being biased was not my intention - I was simply offering information on alternative reading material and commenting on the content -

If you are looking for a prolonged theological argument on be merits or lack thereof of any particular religious sect or cult... you are barking up the wrong burning bush...

I really don't put much stock in such superstitious dogma...

sorry for pissing you off -


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Friday, May 16, 2008 7:22 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!



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Friday, May 16, 2008 8:36 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
What you're talking about here is racism through religious intolerance.
Eh, no. The contending groups (FDLS/ Texas) appear to be primarily of the same race so you can cross "racism" off the list.

AFA religious "intolerance"- IMHO a religion must follow the laws of the land. Period. That means... among other things... no pedophilia and no bride-kidnapping (as practiced by the Hmong in Central California).

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, May 16, 2008 4:21 PM

ERIC


The asshattery continues...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080516/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

Quote:
Texas checking how many sect 'girls' are women
SAN ANTONIO - When Texas child welfare authorities released statistics showing nearly 60 percent of the teen girls taken from a polygamist sect's ranch were pregnant or had children, they seemed to prove what was alleged all along: The sect commonly pushed girls into marriage and sex.


But in the past week, the state has twice been forced to admit "girls" who gave birth while in state custody are actually adults. One was 22 and claims she showed state officials a Utah birth certificate shortly after she and more than 400 minors were seized from the west Texas ranch in an April raid.

The state has in custody two dozen other young mothers and others whose ages are in dispute. If most of them also turn out to be adults, it would be a severe blow to the state's claim of widespread sexual abuse.

If it turns out the other 24 disputed minors are adults, the number of actual 14- to 17-year-old girls with children could drop to as low as five or six. That would amount to about one-fifth of the girls that age found at the ranch — substantially higher than the average rate of teen pregnancies in Texas but a far cry from 60 percent.




Question: When the state fails to follow the simplest laws and procedures, are the people who live under it freed from any similar obligation?

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Saturday, May 17, 2008 2:30 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:
Originally posted by deadlockvictim:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I can't even discuss this with you because your biases are so obscenely obtuse.


I think you are reading more into my post than is actually there - being biased was not my intention - I was simply offering information on alternative reading material and commenting on the content -

If you are looking for a prolonged theological argument on be merits or lack thereof of any particular religious sect or cult... you are barking up the wrong burning bush...

I really don't put much stock in such superstitious dogma...

sorry for pissing you off -



Sorry... probably did read more into it. More likely I injected memories of things other people have said and lumped you in with them. I can be a jerk in here somtimes, I admit it.

I'm just stating that:

a) The Government stepped well beyond it's authority and shat on the Constitution when it went through with this, regardless of any noble intentions.

and b) If this was a brainwashing cult, the boys weren't immune to it growing up and are just as much victims as the women are. If we're all suppoed to be equal, I would really like to stop seeing media and judicial bias always favor the woman for no reason other than she is the woman.

As for superstisious dogma, you're perfectly free to believe what you will. I don't know what I believe in, but I see no reason that there couldn't be a god. Citizen will back me up and say that Science never once claimed to prove the existance or lack of a greater power. I view anyone who flat out claims there is no god to be just as silly as a brainwashed cult member. Not that you have said that with words, but your actions seem to say it for you.

No problem about pissing me off. I like it anyways. Hope I didn't hurt your feelings or nothing.



"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, May 17, 2008 3:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
When the state fails to follow the simplest laws and procedures, are the people who live under it freed from any similar obligation?
It depends on whether you want to see full-on revolution or not. If not, you'll take them up to SCOTUS if necessary, and press your state Legislators and Congresspeople for a lawful resolution. If you do- be prepared, because "the State" outguns you by a considerable amount and going off half-cocked is a surefire way to get people killed.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Monday, May 19, 2008 4:15 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Shitload of hearings today, not really a lot of time to comment, especially since mister grigg has said a lot of it for me...
http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2008/05/texas-child-grab-another-
immaculate.html

One thing that WILL be introduced today elsewhere is conspiracy charges against the local police and CPS, since substantial evidence exists that this whole she-bang was a pre-existing plan and executed with the full intent of wrecking these folks homes, belief system and stripping them of thier children as a punitive gesture for apparently no better reason than being "different".

And when I say substantial evidence, I mean exactly that, we've been silently collecting it all the while, mind you, and the damn fools weren't even TRYING to hide it, so there we are.

Problem is, as with CPS, the folks being charged are going to be also in charge of the investigation, which means it'll likely go nowhere since they've evidenced no real desire or intent to comply with the law whatsoever, all the way down the line.

Only reason we're pressin it is that the alternatives are uglier.

And no, wasn't ignoring the earlier comment/question regarding purchases, it's just that at THIS point, I am no longer legally ABLE to discuss that end of the matter, period.

Sorry, but I have really important reasons for that, and it's a side issue besides.

And I have work to do, folks...

-F

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Monday, May 19, 2008 3:27 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"... with the full intent of wrecking these folks homes, belief system and stripping them of thier children as a punitive gesture for apparently no better reason than being "different"."

And with the underage marriage thing, illegal. Don't forget illegal.

Got this from the paper:

"In addition to 51st District Judge Barbara Walther, who has presided over the case, the following judges will preside over the hearings, court officials said this morning:

119th District Judge Ben Woodward
340th District Judge Jay Weatherby
391st District Judge Tom Gossett
Retired Judge Marilyn Aboussie, former chief justice of the state's 3rd Court of Appeals."

Are Woodward, Weatherby, Gossett and Aboussie in on this too ? 'Cause it sure would knock the conspiracy to shit if these additional judges didn't go along with 'the plan'.


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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