Waterboarding- the real deal by SignyM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Wow, you stumble across one snarky line which, for you, passes off as 'witty' and you keep using it, over and over, huh? I simply am pointing it out to YOU because you keep posting the same drivel over and over again,

You're the one who keeps it relevant, by posting the same evil fascist wannabe terrorist cowardly crap

Quote:
under the delusion that you're "winning" something, when in fact, you aren't.

You're the one who keeps saying, "I win, You lose" over and over again, stop forcing your own idiocy and insecurities on me.

Quote:
I find it funny that it's important for you to imagine me as some figment of your imagination. Says a lot about you, now don't it ?

Not really, since you made it up like the troll you are. I don't think you're a figment of my imagination, shit for brains, I know you're a figment of someone else's. There's a lot of evidence to that end, for instance its plain and clear you are too stupid to understand English, switch on a computer, use a keyboard etc, but you're managing to just about do these things because your puppet master does them. Says a hell of a lot about you, doesn't it.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, May 5, 2008 12:43 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I don't know what you're talking about, Cops shoot unarmed civilians all the time in the US. It's not illegal for a cop to shoot an unarmed person if he believes there is an imminent threat.

So what you're saying is... it's legal in some circumstances but illegal in others. NOT the blanket "legality" that you seem to be seeking for torture, right? So, under what circumstances would you allow torture, on whose authority, and under what circumstances would you make it illegal? And in that light, what do you make of the CIA's use of waterboarding (as well as black detention centers, extraordinary rendition, and outsourcing torture)? This is the CIA's official statement:

Quote:
"The CIA has not used waterboarding for almost five years. We used it against these three high-valued detainees because of the circumstances of the time," Hayden said.

"Very critical of those circumstances was the belief that additional catastrophic attacks against the homeland were imminent. In addition to that, my agency and our community at large had limited knowledge about al Qaeda and its workings."

Mohammed, an alleged planner of the September 11, 2001, attacks and major figure in al Qaeda, was arrested in Pakistan in 2003. According to the U.S. military, Zubayda and al-Nashiri were both important figures in al Qaeda, and al-Nashiri was the mastermind behind the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen.

McConnell, who also testified at the hearing, said waterboarding remains a technique in the CIA's arsenal according to The Associated Press. He said it would require the president's consent and legal approval from the attorney general, the AP reported. McConnell also told the Senate Intelligence Committee that al Qaeda and its affiliates remain the top threat to U.S. interests at home and abroad. He also expressed fear that al Qaeda in Iraq may be planning to spread out and launch attacks in other countries. McConnell issued the concern in sobering, wide-ranging testimony that laid out the latest assessment of the terrorist threats the United States and its allies faces.

"We are increasingly concerned that even as coalition forces inflict significant damage on al Qaeda inside Iraq, they may deploy resources to mount attacks outside that country. Al Qaeda's North Africa affiliate ... is active in North Africa and is extending its target set to include U.S. and Western interests," McConnell said.

Hayden said the al Qaeda safe haven in Pakistan is a serious problem that is increasingly recognized by the Pakistani government as a threat to its own existence, which has prompted a better understanding of the need for U.S. military help. "Our partners in Pakistan {HA!!} understand that this is a Pakistani problem and the threat coming out of the tribal areas is now a threat to the health and well-being and identity of Pakistan," Hayden said. "Pakistan's capacity to do some of the things we both would like to see happen in the tribal areas is limited." McConnell expressed deep concern about a future nuclear threat from Iran, and cautioned against misreading the recent National Intelligence Estimate that said Iran has halted the design and creation of a nuclear weapon."We remain concerned about Iran as a potential nuclear weapons threat," he said. "The earliest possible date Iran could technically be capable of producing enough fissile material for a weapon is late 2009, but we judge that to be unlikely. If Iran's nuclear weapons design program has already been reactivated or will be reactivated, it will be a closely guarded secret in an attempt to keep us from being aware of its true status." The intelligence chief also warned that North Korea may not be intending to keep its promise to suspend nuclear weapons programs. He was blunt in regard to Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, declaring his policies "damaging to the Venezuelan oil industry and its economy."

What I got out of it???

There was more or less the admission that they didn't get jack shit out of the waterboardings other than some operational understanding of al Qaida which by now is outdated. There was no "imminent threat" and there was no evidence of an imminent attack on the USA. In other words, it didn't even meet the Jack Bauer scenario where they KNEW someone had hidden drums of toxic weapons throughout LA, or was about to detonate a nuclear bomb, or would be be passing a decoder ring... er I mean chip... to the Chinese. There were no chemical purchases, no fragmentary communications, no suspicious activities around nuclear facilities, no hot pursuit through LA's meanstreets. It was a fishing expedition, more or less, triggered by nothing other than "Hey we got what we think are high value guys! Let's drown 'em a little bit and see what they say!

And then they followed that up with a lot of fear-mongering, hoping that the smoke will make you take your eyes off the fact that the waterboarding didn't "save lives".

In other words, it was all based on fear, not evidence, and because they thought they could.

----------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Monday, May 5, 2008 3:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
"Hey we got what we think are high value guys! Let's drown 'em a little bit and see what they say!

Precisely. I believe you nailed it Signy. They probably HOPED they'd get some hero-making intel from them- maybe even expected to, but not so much. That whole load of s**t above is just a wordy way of saying "What they told us makes us conjure that maybe there's more STUFF gonna happen." Very informative. They could have gotten the same info by givin' those boys a few beers.
Idiots.
Idiots we pay, too.

GRRRRRChrisisall

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Monday, May 5, 2008 4:28 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by walkerhound:
a. interrogation works. (people like to believe other wise but....it's just not true).

Nobody is against interrogation here.

Quote:

b. torture is another way of saying: "method of interrogation we won't use"

Yeah, cause you know, some methods of interrogation work better than others. Some methods are very effective, while others are not reliable. You abandon the methods that don't work so well, which are moreover immoral. It's a cost-benefit thing. It costs us our moral integrity and humanity, not to mention our time and efforts, and it doesn't give us a lot back for it.

Here is an article explaining why torture is a poor method for interrogation.
http://www.alternet.org/rights/28585/

The Jack Bauer scenario is a myth perpetuated by media entertainment.
http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/primetime/project.asp

Quote:
i'm almost temped to ask what some of you would consider "acceptable" methods to extract information?

Methods that do not involve dehumanization of the "asset." Spy on them, bug them, trick them into telling you shit, talk to their friends, spy on their friends, etc. There is an entire repertoire of spy techniques that are very well established. It is hard work, but they yield better, corroborated results.

Here is an example of why the govt cannot sanction the use of torture, even in limited settings with controls.

Quote:
For example, the Israeli government legalized "moderate physical pressure," with controls to limit its use. However, once permitted, thousands of "suspects" were tortured for stone-throwing and other routine offenses, and the practice became routine and systematic. Even though the Israeli High Court banned the practice in 1999, Amnesty International continues to document Israeli authorities' use of torture.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/askamnesty/torture200112.html

We don't need to go there.

Edited to add links:
http://www.livescience.com/history/071019-torture-history.html
http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/050725_innocent_confess.html

--------------------------
Torture does not work. We know from working with victims that torture is an ineffective way to gather information. Nearly all our clients, when subjected to torture, confessed to a crime they did not commit, gave up extraneous information, or supplied names of innocent friends or colleagues. This is a great source of shame for our clients, who tell usthey would have said anything to get the pain to stop.
--Center for Victims of Torture
http://www.cvt.org/file.php?ID=5575

Anybody with real combat experience understands that torture is counterproductive.
--F. Andy Messing, retired major U.S. Special Forces and director of the National Defense Council, Insight magazine

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:02 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
You're the one who keeps it relevant, by posting the same evil fascist wannabe terrorist cowardly crap .

You're the terrorist loving appeaser to those who saw heads off of innocent men, women and children. You side with monsters. I side w/ the champions and defenders of freedom.

Quote:
You're the one who keeps saying, "I win, You lose" over and over again, stop forcing your own idiocy and insecurities on me.

You keep displaying your own insecurities for all to see, and then trying heap them all onto me. But, as usual, you fail at that as well.

Quote:
]Not really, since you made it up like the troll you are. I don't think you're a figment of my imagination, shit for brains, I know you're a figment of someone else's. There's a lot of evidence to that end, for instance its plain and clear you are too stupid to understand English, switch on a computer, use a keyboard etc, but you're managing to just about do these things because your puppet master does them. Says a hell of a lot about you, doesn't it.

Does your therapist instruct you to make up such fairy tales. Does this silly, rambling construct of yours make it easier to get through the day ?

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I side w/ the champions and defenders of freedom.

I'm sorry, I keep getting this image of a guy at the NSA who hates his job, in front of a computer with time to kill, so he pretends to be this "AURaptor" character...he intentionally goes way over the top with references to facts that don't exist, or ones that serve his "character's" purposes which, as far as I can tell, is to lampoon such sheepish following of the governmental status quo.
I'd say it has been quite successful too.

Cover-blowin' Chrisisall

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:12 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
You're the terrorist loving appeaser to those who saw heads off of innocent men, women and children. You side with monsters. I side w/ the champions and defenders of freedom....

Who torture and kill in the name of freedom!

Rap, I just don't understand how you paper that over. Shouting huzzahs doesn't make you right.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:14 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
You're the terrorist loving appeaser to those who saw heads off of innocent men, women and children. You side with monsters. I side w/ the champions and defenders of freedom....
Who torture and kill in the name of freedom!

Rap, I just don't understand how you paper that over. Shouting huzzahs doesn't make you right.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

We don't torture and kill innocents. THATS the difference. i don't see how you don't get it.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:15 AM

America loves a winner!

chris - I don't pretend to believe that your life is so sheltered and that you're so naive as to believe that silly scenario. You really are too wise for that.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
chris - I don't pretend to believe that your life is so sheltered and that you're so naive as to believe that silly scenario. You really are too wise for that.

HOLY CRAP!!!
I just threw that out there, and look at the response!!!! Classic agency denial!!! I was accidentally right!!! WOOOO-HOOO!!!

Chrisisall, PI

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I love terrorism because it makes me feel like a big man when really I'm a cowardly chump

Some truth at last.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:28 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I love terrorism because it makes me feel like a big man when really I'm a cowardly chump
Some truth at last.

What a worthless sack of go se. Instead of taking words out of context, you've resorted to flat out fabrication , whole sale.

citizen is a spineless troll. I'm suspecting he's part muslim.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:31 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
We don't torture and kill innocents.

Tell that to the parents of dead children and the children who're grieving for their mothers. And then run like hell, because they know the truth even if you don't.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:34 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
chris - I don't pretend to believe that your life is so sheltered and that you're so naive as to believe that silly scenario. You really are too wise for that.

HOLY CRAP!!!
I just threw that out there, and look at the response!!!! Classic agency denial!!! I was accidentally right!!! WOOOO-HOOO!!!

Chrisisall, PI

Somewhere, somehow, the REAL agent Mulder is smiling.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:35 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
We don't torture and kill innocents.
Tell that to the parents of dead children and the children who're grieving for their mothers. And then run like hell, because they know the truth even if you don't.

---------------------------------

You literally have no idea what you're talking about.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
What a worthless sack of go se. Instead of taking words out of context, you've resorted to flat out fabrication , whole sale.

citizen is a spineless troll. I'm suspecting he's part muslim.

What a racist sack of shit you just showed your self to be, go back to worshiping hitler you nazi child rapist

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
You literally have no idea what you're talking about.

Just admit it, you like watching children die, it gives you a hard on, like the one your dad used to get whe he sneaked into your room at night...

That's the real reason you hate Muslims so much isn't it. Seriously, most Muslims are nothing like your dad, he was an aborration

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:39 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen: Being a British fop, I prefer the company of young, impressionable young boys to that of women my own age. Mother has told me to stay clear of those whores, and I do love me mum!

Well, that does explain much !!!

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Well, that does explain much !!!

If it makes me a spineless troll, it makes you one too, but it also makes you a hypocrite. Either way, it's not ok to rape little girls, even if your dad did it.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:44 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Well, that does explain much !!!
If it makes me a spineless troll, it makes you one too, but it also makes you a hypocrite. Either way, it's not ok to rape little girls, even if your dad did it.

Just one question - Have you stopped sexually molesting your cat yet?

Honestly.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
What a racist sack of

Cit- he's been playin' us all along- it all makes sense now- the false facts, the contradictions, the stupid slips in character....see, he's relatively informed, but he draws conclusions that no reasonable peep could from the amount if info he's demonstrated he has in his head- it would fly if he was flat-out stupid, but he's not....it's all been a years long gag...I'll bet he was that freak Rightstuff way back also!!! But he saw that "character" was just a little TOO over the top, so he stuck with "AU"!!!

It finally comes together....

Light bulb over Chrisisall

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:48 AM

America loves a winner!

From citizen's wish list, at Amazon.com.

Good lord, that's just sick!

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Just one question - Have you stopped sexually molesting your cat yet?

Honestly.

I don't own, nor have I ever owned a Cat. I had to molest yours because it started feeling lonely when you started sleeping with your rapist father again

.

Seriously though, do you realise how big a joke you are to EVERYONE here? Not just me, EVERYONE. You're a laughing stock and you somehow think you're a clever winner. It's sad, like when people are picking on the mentally handicapped kid and he thinks they're his friends.

Hey, what do I mean 'like'...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

From citizen's wish list, at Amazon.com.

Good lord, that's just sick!

See? He doing classic agency diversion now...it was called "right field left field" back in the day...

He's definitely alphabet.

Chrisisall

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:52 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
You literally have no idea what you're talking about.

really. The tell me, in detail, how I'm wrong, Bring facts to the table. Explain away the millions of innocent people we killed around the world. I'll bet you run out in about... oh... ten words. Because the facts aren't on your side. Pretty much like your view of the economy. (Yeah, how's that going Rap? On fire, right?) Your vision is so biased your literally can't see what's right in front of your face. I'll bet you dollars to donuts you had NO IDEA that 9-11 was coming, and that it punched you in the gut because you were so terribly unaware and unprepared.

If I had been as massively, utterly wrong as you've been on so many topics I would probably go to some quiet dark place and think deeply and painfully about where I'd gone so terribly, horribly wrong. I would question my assumptions and my sources of info, I'd look hard at how I had filtered and connected data, and I would try to figure out what I needed to fix so that reality wouldn't bite me in the ass like it had done so many times before. It's called LEARNING, Rap. It's a lot harder than denial and delusion, but in the end it's a helluva lot more useful. For you. You might want to try it sometime.

So, to reiterate my challenge... show me that we have NOT tortured and murdered thousands of innocent people.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:54 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I side w/ the champions and defenders of freedom.

I'm sorry, I keep getting this image of a guy at the NSA who hates his job, in front of a computer with time to kill, so he pretends to be this "AURaptor" character...he intentionally goes way over the top with references to facts that don't exist, or ones that serve his "character's" purposes which, as far as I can tell, is to lampoon such sheepish following of the governmental status quo.
I'd say it has been quite successful too.

Cover-blowin' Chrisisall

AwwwCrapper is in no way smart enough to work at NSA. He's shown that repeatedly. He's also no champion or defender of anything - except maybe his keyboard. He's a lot like his idols, Bush and Cheney - he's a warmongering little coward who never served and never sacrificed. Please don't besmirch those at the NSA who HAVE served over the years, and continue to do so, by lumping a piece of shit like 'Crapper in with them.

"Champions and defenders of freedom" DON'T engage in and support torture. And if by some odd chance they DID torture somebody, they wouldn't ask permission, ask forgiveness, and they sure as FUCK wouldn't be bragging about it in press releases, like these dumbfuck Administration wonks keep doing!

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:56 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I had to molest yours because I started feeling lonely again .

Well, I guess no one could say they didn't see that comin'.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
See? He doing classic agency diversion now...it was called "right field left field" back in the day...

He's definitely alphabet.

I'm more concerned about why he feels it necessarry to have that picture in a place he can quickly and easilly get at it...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:57 AM

Quote:
I'm suspecting he's part muslim.

Not that you're a racist or anything...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Monday, May 5, 2008 7:58 AM

Come on AU, no need to take it out on me because you're pissed about your father being arrested in Austria...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, May 5, 2008 8:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

AwwwCrapper is in no way smart enough to work at NSA.

Well maybe not NSA, but he sounds agency to me. He musta got in via a relative, and now he's in the basement doing the s**t work which is why he comes here...you think I'm kidding?

Chrisisall

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Monday, May 5, 2008 8:08 AM

Quote:
If I had been as massively, utterly wrong as you've been on so many topics I would probably go to some quiet dark place and think deeply and painfully about where I'd gone so terribly, horribly wrong. I would question my assumptions and my sources of info, I'd look hard at how I had filtered and connected data, and I would try to figure out what I needed to fix so that reality wouldn't bite me in the ass like it had done so many times before.

Or, you know, we could just set up a meeting between him and The Operative.

"Yours is a good death."

And 'Rap, you screwed up - you attacked Citizen because he wanted to see you die. You said you'd NEVER say such a thing about him, and then you called him a terrorist appeaser (whatever the hell that's supposed to be) and a "part muslim" - whatever the fuck THAT is supposed to be... Islam is a religion, you insufferable little dickhead. You're not "part" muslim - you either are or you aren't. It's like being "part Jew" or "part christian". Or "part pregnant". Either you IS, or you AIN'T.

Now, since you support torturing terrorists 100%, by your own admission early in this thread, and you all but call Cit a terrorist, by definition, you're saying you want him tortured.

But then you also say we don't torture innocents. Surely Cit isn't charged with any crime, is he? Is pissing you off now a federal crime?

You are a twisted little monkey...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Monday, May 5, 2008 8:53 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
You literally have no idea what you're talking about.
really. The tell me, in detail, how I'm wrong, Bring facts to the table. Explain away the millions of innocent people we killed around the world. I'll bet you run out in about... oh... ten words. Because the facts aren't on your side. Pretty much like your view of the economy. (Yeah, how's that going Rap? On fire, right?) Your vision is so biased your literally can't see what's right in front of your face. I'll bet you dollars to donuts you had NO IDEA that 9-11 was coming, and that it punched you in the gut because you were so terribly unaware and unprepared.

So, to reiterate my challenge... show me that we have NOT tortured and murdered thousands of innocent people.

.

The burden of proof lies upon you to show where we have, not for me to show where we've not done any of those things. We certainly haven't targeted any civilians, as the terrorist have, so I hope you've got great evidence to back your position up.

And yes, as for 9/11, everyone was unprepared and no one saw it comin'. A lot of folks like to play revisionist history, and CLAIM they saw it comin', but they didn't.

Of course, there was the '93 bombing of the WTC, and we thought we had "taken care of that" , using non military agencies. And of course there was the OK City bombing, most DID think that was Saddam back then.

What was your point again?

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, May 5, 2008 9:46 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The burden of proof lies upon you to show where we have

No, the burden of proof in on YOU since YOU made the statement that

Quote:
We don't torture and kill innocents

You're wrong, you KNOW you're wrong, and its just too friggin' obvious that you're trying to dodge your own statement. It's downright embarrassing. But hey, it's stuck like a piece of toilet paper on your shoe.

Quote:
And yes, as for 9/11, everyone was unprepared and no one saw it comin'.

I saw it coming, you friggin' moron. It didn't take a genius to connect the dots from the embassy bombings to the Cole to home soil. It just takes someone who's not so snowed by propaganda that they can't wake up.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Monday, May 5, 2008 10:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
We certainly haven't targeted any civilians, as the terrorist have

But Mr. Disinformation agency guy, if we TARGET creeps, KNOWING civies will be greased in the process, ain't it effectively the same thing?

(And is it possible to answer without using the phrase "collateral damage"? Thanks.)

Operativeisall

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Monday, May 5, 2008 10:33 AM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
I'm suspecting he's part muslim.

Not that you're a racist or anything...

Since when is Muslim a Race? It sounds to me like Auraptor knows what he's talking about, judging by the reaction. Him and his buddies at the Agency have probably been watching Citizen ever since he first started spouting anti-American propaganda here. I can honestly say that I probably agree with Auraptor more often than anyone else here, and that's not just because I think he's FBI, and not because I don't want his Agency to be mad at my Agency.

Deputy Secret Agent Kirkules

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Monday, May 5, 2008 10:38 AM

Quote:

Deputy Secret Agent Kirkules

Now we find out the level of infiltration here....

Always knew it Chrisisall

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Monday, May 5, 2008 10:46 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
if we TARGET creeps, KNOWING civies will be greased in the process, ain't it effectively the same thing?

If we do not target creeps thinking that civies might be hurt, what do we do about the civies hurt who are targeted by creeps?

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Monday, May 5, 2008 10:55 AM

That had a kind of poetry to it, sir.

Zoeisall

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Monday, May 5, 2008 11:03 AM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
We certainly haven't targeted any civilians, as the terrorist have
But Mr. Disinformation agency guy, if we TARGET creeps, KNOWING civies will be greased in the process, ain't it effectively the same thing?

(And is it possible to answer without using the phrase "collateral damage"? Thanks.)

Operativeisall

I don't remember a big outcry in the US when the Clinton administration bombed the hell out of civilians in Bosnia. Am I the only one that called that chicken shit at the time? Clinton was so afraid that putting boots on the ground would hurt his poll numbers he was willing to accept civilian losses. At least in Iraq we've got soldiers on the ground giving their lives to protect civilians and minimise the death of innocents. The idea that we've killed "millions" is just stupid, no country in the world does more to avoid civilian casualties than we do. How do you fight an enemy that hides behind women and children? I guess we could just stand by while they kill us, so you consciences can be clear, but they will kill "millions" if we do.

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Monday, May 5, 2008 11:16 AM

Let me see...when we got Noriega we shot AT the shanty town surrounding his palace because we didn't want to hurt the home of our next puppet...that's just the first glaring incident that comes to mind...

Does it mean NOTHING to anyone that most folk that were gonna die by Saddam's orders were already dead by 2003 and that by invading Iraq, like, a hundred thousand peeps died that wouldn't have if we didn't?

That's a question I want to see someone dance around.

Bipeds.

EDIT: and yeah, Clinton was a screw up also.

The last angry Chrisisall

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Monday, May 5, 2008 11:37 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
The burden of proof lies upon you to show where we have
No, the burden of proof in on YOU since YOU made the statement that
Quote:
We don't torture and kill innocents
You're wrong, you KNOW you're wrong, and its just too friggin' obvious that you're trying to dodge your own statement. It's downright embarrassing. But hey, it's stuck like a piece of toilet paper on your shoe.
Quote:
And yes, as for 9/11, everyone was unprepared and no one saw it comin'.
I saw it coming, you friggin' moron. It didn't take a genius to connect the dots from the embassy bombings to the Cole to home soil. It just takes someone who's not so snowed by propaganda that they can't wake up.

--.

No, you made the assertion,

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM: Who torture and kill in the name of freedom!

....
I simply refuted it because you had no proof. And please tell me you're not talking about Abu Ghraib, or some such crap like that. It's been done to death, and those thugs who committed those crimes were punished. And there's NO torture down at Gitmo, in fact, it's always been quite the opposite. It's prison, after all, for killers and terrorist. Not a gorram day camp for troubled jihadist.

I'm sure you saw 9/11 coming, SPECIFICALLY like that, and not just some car bomb, right ? I call B.S. on that, sorry. How's about you call on something BEFORE it happens?

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, May 5, 2008 11:38 AM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Let me see...when we got Noriega we shot AT the shanty town surrounding his palace because we didn't want to hurt the home of our next puppet...that's just the first glaring incident that comes to mind...

Does it mean NOTHING to anyone that most folk that were gonna die by Saddam's orders were already dead by 2003 and that by invading Iraq, like, a hundred thousand peeps died that wouldn't have if we didn't?

That's a question I want to see someone dance around.

Bipeds.

EDIT: and yeah, Clinton was a screw up also.

I have personally talked to two guys that were in Panama, one was a Ranger and I think the other was a Marine. Both were wounded, and both said it was friendly fire. That operation was so screwed up they said they couldn't say much about it because it was classified. I suspect you are referring to the AC-130 that apparently did a lot of damage friendly and otherwise.

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Monday, May 5, 2008 11:39 AM

Quote:
Since when is Muslim a Race?

I thought about that just after I posted it (see the post just after that).

So what DO you call someone who is prejudiced against others based solely on their religious beliefs? A "religionist"?

I thought of anti-Semitism, and figured if you call someone with anti-Semitic beliefs a racist, then an anti-Muslim would probably qualify as well.

Crapper seems to have it in his head that all Muslims are necessarily evil, simply because of the deplorable actions of a few. I'd lay it at his feet that I can make the same claim about Christianity. Hitler, Mussolini, Li'l Timmy McVeigh, the Columbine Kids, Charlie Manson... all were Christian. Does that mean that ALL Christians are mass murderers, psychopaths, terrorists, and fuckheads?

Well, maybe that last part...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Monday, May 5, 2008 11:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Let me see...when we got Noriega we shot AT the shanty town surrounding his palace because we didn't want to hurt the home of our next puppet...that's just the first glaring incident that comes to mind...

Does it mean NOTHING to anyone that most folk that were gonna die by Saddam's orders were already dead by 2003 and that by invading Iraq, like, a hundred thousand peeps died that wouldn't have if we didn't?

That's a question I want to see someone dance around.

Bipeds.

EDIT: and yeah, Clinton was a screw up also.

The last angry Chrisisall

Ah, yes... Good ol' Noriega and "Operation Just Because"...

As far as Iraqi civilians, the British medical journal "The Lancet" used their typical medical methodology, and figured the number of dead Iraqis at closer to 650,000 since the invasion. And that was on the LOW end of the estimated range. To date, several have questioned the numbers, but no one has questioned the methodology for how they arrived at those numbers.

'Course, that won't stop shitbirds like 'Crapper from trying to sound the old "but they're a liberal propaganda front!" routine. So far as I've been able to find out, The Lancet is a world-renowned medical journal, on par with our Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA).

And calling 'Crapper a "biped" is an insult - to bipeds. You're only *assuming* that he can walk on two legs. I've seen no evidence that he's not a knuckle-dragging dullard.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Monday, May 5, 2008 11:52 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I'm sure you saw 9/11 coming, SPECIFICALLY like that, and not just some car bomb, right ? I call B.S. on that, sorry. How's about you call on something BEFORE it happens?

No, not specifically as it happened. But I knew there was nothing preventing a big attack. I thought it might be radiological or biological, so I was somewhat relieved it wasn't worse. (Altho strangely, the pilot show of The Lone Gunmen got the whole 9-11 thing almost perfectly, including terrorists flying a plane into the WTC. Considering that it aired about six months before 9-11 I'd say the writers should get the Crystal Ball Award.)

AFA predicting stuff... I predicted SO MANY things that it got me followed by an alphabet agency. But that was all on another board. And that server crashed so those particular posts can't even be accessed. So I'll just have to point to my prediction of the current economic mess and the meltdown of the dollar. Fortunately, I took a big chunk of dollars and invested it in foreign currency and gold. Did you do that too? Or did yet another significant event take you by surprise... again?

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Monday, May 5, 2008 11:52 AM