And only the rising force of Islam will prevail by AURaptor

Muhammad can lick my ballsack.

You're not scared of what some false prophit told these weak minded people, are you Rap?

I know you're not giving up your right to bear. When they get here, I'll be on the front lines fighting them with you.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 1:45 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

Their achilles heel

Pull back and just draw a funny cartoon and these idiots will start killing each other

I think their region has a lot of history to offer but unfortunately Islam and Democracy can never exist together

Which is exactly why the Turkish want these headscarf lunatics to get the F*** away from their universities

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 3:14 AM

FOSTER

Interesting dream but I can't say that I see any real evidence that they would be able to accomplish any of that. I don't see that world domination by any one group is a viable option.

It would require a cohesive social structure or a permissive structure. Islam is neither. I have to say that he does display an excessive amount of ethnocentrism but that is not really surprising many members of the Western Cultures also display the same characteristic. (It is one of the things that allows a culture to grow and flourish)
The constant interaction that cultures have with one another cause constant mutations within them both altering the structures that they started with.

The Romans had a very permissive culture they did not demand that one give up their own gods only that they add theirs to the pantheon and pay taxes to Rome. That was a very important part of why they were able to amass such a large area of influence. You can have a brief time when a large area is conquered (Alexander the Great) and ruled under one leader but it will not last long as the internal differences will tear the "country" apart once the cohesive force relaxes. Or you need to completely isolate your culture from others (i.e. China) to keep the culture "pure" to keep maintain the rule (Which is not working in the modern world as evidenced by all the growing pains that China is currently undergoing).

Though Islam is perceived as a more cohesive culture it has its own internal faults and rifts (Shi’a vs. Sunni, for that part the Middle East vs. the Indonesian animalistic version of Islam).

I understand that this guy is being broadcast across the Middle East but that doesn't mean that the populace at large agrees with him. I have seen plenty of politicians/pundits on TV here that I don't agree with (some I believe are complete quacks) but they are on TV.

Idiots are every where and while we should beware of them we should not fear them that gives them a much stronger hold over us than really necessary.

Being realistically aware of what we are capable of, along with what those who challenge us are, will prevent us from being overly alarmist or to complacent in our own place on the global food chain.

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 4:46 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Bah, the only way those dweebs would ever reduce us to a theological tyranny is by scaring cowardly little pissants over here into doing it FOR them.

And so far, so good, it sure looks like.

But not ALL of us are willing to cower and hide under the bed when some pathetic little pissant several thousand miles away with no significant military force at hand talks smack at us.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 6:40 AM

KIRKULES

The Islamists are clearly telling us what their goals are. It may be true that they are incapable of pulling off their plans currently, but if we ignore and downplay the threat like many here do, we will see more catastrophic attacks in the future. Those that are realistic about the threat are not the ones with the sheets pulled over their heads, it's those that pretend there is no threat. The chance of Islamists taking over the world is close to zero, but the chances of them eventually pulling off another large attack is nearly 100%, if we do nothing. So there are those with their heads in the sand telling us we're scared of our own shadows, and those that use scare tactics to try to get the others to pull their heads out. The only ones out there that actually believe that Islamist will take over the world is the Islamists themselves.

6ixstringjack really hit the nail on the head in my opinion. If the Islamists want a fight, they don't have any idea of what they'll be in for when we all pull together.

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 7:00 AM

ALLIETHORN7

Don't see the real problem. Islamists die just as easy as anyone else.

-Danny

Late night, Brakes lock,
Hear the tires squeal,
Red light, can't stop, so I spin the wheel,
My world goes Black before I
Feel an Angel lift me up,
And I open Bloodshot eyes,
Into fluorescent White,
Flip the Siren, Hit the Lights,
Close the doors and I am Gone
The Band of the week is... Thrice

Gott weiß ich will kein Engel sein.
http://www.myspace.com/otherrandomdude

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 7:16 AM

PIRATECAT

Winchester and I can dig a fox hole in El Segundo or the Outer Banks. So Bring It. County Mayo in western Ireland has a mosque. So where the minerets appear is the land of islam just as poverty and tyranny.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 7:48 AM

RIVERLOVE

And with President Obama, a man who clearly has been around a lot of America haters in his life, these ruthless enslavers and murderers will only be emboldened knowing that he won't kill them back.

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 8:56 AM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
The Islamists are clearly telling us what their goals are. It may be true that they are incapable of pulling off their plans currently, but if we ignore and downplay the threat like many here do, we will see more catastrophic attacks in the future.

I have to address this because it gets right to the heart of how we're fucking up, and how they actually could win.

You're right about the first part. To ignore the threat would be catastrophic. But downplaying it is exactly what we must do. Now, I know many of you will hear 'downplaying' and think 'giving in' or 'appeasement', but please try to read past those assumptions because that's NOT what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is pursuing the terrorist threat vigorously and doggedly, but intelligently.

We desperately want the terrorism problem to be a war. We want that because we know we could win a war - easily. Problem is, the islamic terrorists know that too. That's why they've turned to terrorism in the first place and it's why they'll never meet us on the battlefield. We have to get it through our heads that terrorism isn't warfare, it's PR.

Terrorism achieves nothing in terms of traditional warfare. It doesn't diminish our military strength and it doesn't enhance theirs. It doesn't gain territory or access to resources and it does very little, directly, to harm the supply lines of an enemy. What it does do is influence public opinion, both on the home front and in the minds of the target population. Terrorists seek to manipulate their target into actions that will be bad for the target, and good for the terrorist's ultimate goals.

The Islamic world hasn't been a cohesive threat to anyone for hundreds of years. One of the biggest reasons for this the tribalism and regional disputes that have kept them from uniting in a common cause. The British have played on this for the last century or two and kept them from ever becoming a threat by fostering just such regional chaos. But they're starting to figure this out. In particular, the Islamic Fundamentalists have figured this out.

Now they seek to resolve this problem by finding a way to united the region into a viable nation, the Nation of Islam. And it is a little scary to conceive of because Islamic influence extends far beyond just the middle east. But first they have to figure out a way to united all these disparate, squabbling tribes behind a common cause. In the notion of Western Imperialism, particularly US imperialism, they believe they have found their common cause.

Whether you buy into the idea that Western policy toward the Middle East is imperialistic or not is immaterial. What does matter is whether the people of the region buy into it, because they are the true targets of islamic terrorism - targets in the sense that it is THEY that the terrorists most seek to influence.

But they also hope to influence the actual enemy. They hope to disrupt our lives, drive us to act out of panic and fear, and in general induce us to self-destruct.

So, in the minds of the terrorists, the ideal response of the target is for them to act in ways the will achieve the terrorist's immediate goals: to unite their own people against a common enemy, and to goad that enemy into self-destructive behavior. If we are to respond intelligently to the terrorist threat, we must not allow these goals to be accomplished, and we must certainly not act in ways that make them more likely.

That means we should avoid foreign policy that further inspires the people of the middle east to believe that we are, in fact, the boogeyman that Osama tells them we are. That doesn't mean that we don't go after the terrorists. It doesn't mean that we put up with nations who are actively supporting the terrorists. But it does mean that we should avoid clumsily stomping around the middle east in fits of childish bravado. And it means we should back off on policy that makes us look like assholes - rather than arrogantly shoving it in their face to prove that we aren't afraid.

It also means we should avoid living in fear. And I'm not talking about going shopping. I mean that we should avoid undermining the foundations of our own strength on their behalf. We should resist the urge to give in to insecurity and paranoia. We should avoid amplifying the effects of the terrorists attacks by overreacting. In fact, at least in the public arena, we must under-react. Building them up in the eyes of the public, especially in an attempt to support a pointless war, gives the terrorist attacks far more 'bang for the buck'.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 9:35 AM

RIGHTEOUS9

It's like you guys who are so fucking afraid of Islam you don't understand how religion works at all.

Organized Religion can only preach a message that people are receptive to. It's purpose is certainly control and power, and it can certainly help to inform a public's perception of reality, but to act like it is the sole driving force of the arab world is to be dismissive of historic examples of all religions, both in their most fundamentalist states and in their evolution towards something more progressive.

Make up whatever bullshit you want about how it's the religion that is the problem. If it weren't islam it would be something else, and the results would be fundamentally the same. Because inspite of whether or not many of the followers of these extreme beliefs know it or not, the driving force is economic in the end.

When you have nothing to lose, you have nothing to protect. All you have is some make believe Sugar Candy Mountain to look forward to in the after-life. At that point you are ripe for the picking for people with real world, personal and political(power brokering) agendas. Those people aren't crazy. Those people don't strap bombs to themselves. They make calculated risks towards specific gains. They preach or allow to be preached these extreme doctrines because it benefits them.

That doesn't mean some of them wouldn't rejoice loudly if the U.S. were to implode or be taken down from outside...but it does mean that they will only pursue such an agenda for as long as there is something in it for them. There has never been something in it for them in the commodity that it is today. We were hated in some circles and apprciated in others, but now we're hated in all of them.

What we have done is to make demonizing us an easy sell. We have never done what we should have when we could have, which was to do business with these nations on the condition that they adopt certain democratic principles. We have aided and abetted in succesful feudal systems where all the resources are held by the rulers who can then allow their clerics to demonize America for the people's woes instead of their own regimes.

My guess is we benefitted from that structure because bribing one person for oil was always better terms than negotiating with a nation - that such nations with one leader in our pockets were always more "loyal" to our wishes.

But back to religion. Come on! What's the difference between catholicism and Islam? Not a whole lot in our country. We don't have a disproportionate cross-section of American Mosques going on about the evil of the U.S. any more than we have crazy Catholic or Christian Churches preaching that tolerance has been vice in this country and that is why Katrina happened and that is why 9/11 happened.

But over there where the culture is different and the economics are different, go figure that the religion would reflect that as much as inform it. Duh.

I know black and white is the way you want to frame things. It's easier for you to understand...I'm sorry it isn't that way.

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 10:42 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Interesting, thanks for the image because that just revealed the truth of the matter.

Erm, y'all DO know that MEMRI has a long history of translations so distorted they border on outright fiction, and is run by people with a vested interest in playing sides, right ?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/aug/12/worlddispatch.brianwhitake
r

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute

http://www.irmep.org/research_notes/7_23_2003_Americas_Middle_East_Thi
nk_Tanks.html

I wouldn't believe anything translated through MEMRI until I had two neutral sources confirm every word of it, they have ZERO credibility outside of policy circles intent on pushing that agenda anyway.

So it might be interesting to compare an actual straight-meaning translation versus what MEMRI just tried to shovel, and I'll lay damn good odds they DON'T match.

Bets ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 10:47 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
The Islamists are clearly telling us what their goals are. It may be true that they are incapable of pulling off their plans currently, but if we ignore and downplay the threat like many here do, we will see more catastrophic attacks in the future. Those that are realistic about the threat are not the ones with the sheets pulled over their heads, it's those that pretend there is no threat. The chance of Islamists taking over the world is close to zero, but the chances of them eventually pulling off another large attack is nearly 100%, if we do nothing. So there are those with their heads in the sand telling us we're scared of our own shadows, and those that use scare tactics to try to get the others to pull their heads out. The only ones out there that actually believe that Islamist will take over the world is the Islamists themselves.

6ixstringjack really hit the nail on the head in my opinion. If the Islamists want a fight, they don't have any idea of what they'll be in for when we all pull together.

Exactly. You don’t assume wolves are not a threat simply because they are far away or you’re not the one they are attacking. Downplaying threats like this is exactly the kind of mindset that brought us 9/ll. If you ignore the wolf population long enough, sooner or later, one will find its way into your camp.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 2:15 PM

I'm not ignoring anything Finn. I'm aware of the problem, but it doesn't justify imperialism or flushing billions of dollars we're borrowing from the FED a month down the shitter either.

I've got several months supply of food, I've got tools, I'm armed and I'm always looking for ways to better my position in the off chance that anything happens one day that screws with the infrastructure here so badly that these things we take for granted aren't so easily accessable.

Knowing this, and knowing that I don't work in any tall buildings or other likely targets for a terrorist attack, I feel relatively comfortable with the notion of them bringing it again. The truth is though, I don't think that will ever happen.

I've got a neighbor in my apartment, a black man living with a woman and children who are obviously of middle-eastern descent. He wears one of those Muslim hats on occasion and after he moved in there was 8 Querans in the general mail box, one of which I had picked up but haven't gotten around to reading at all yet. What am I to do in this situation Finn? Not that he or I go out of our way to visit each other, but we know each other by name and say hi whenever we see each other. He's even signed for packages from UPS sometimes for me because I work nights and I'm not always up to get them. I've lived in 4 apartments before and I've never seen anyone do that, let alone have I ever felt the desire to go out of my way signing for packages for somebody else.

I'll admit that with my general distrust of anyone who I don't share blood with, and even a lot of them folk too, the thought has crossed my mind on more than one occasion that he could very well be putting on an act to earn my trust and the trust of all around him; the thought that this kind of thing could be happening around the world. To not hold on to the thought of that possibility would be foolish, even if I hold it deep in the dark secret place in the back of my mind. I would just hope that if this really is happening that while he and millions of Muslims around the world are doing this, they're realizing that on an individual level that more often than not, we're really not that bad. I am not George Bush, he is not Osama Bin Laden. This is not my war, this is not his war.

My biggest problem with the events that have taken place since 2001 is the dethroneing and murdering of Saddam Hussein. I'm not arguing that he wasn't a good guy... I'm just saying that having a powerful secular person out there in the Middle East kinda made me feel a lot better then the extremist religious alternatives. We really screwed the pooch there dammit. If we pull out now after removing him from power, I'm sure Iraq will be run by a bunch of Allah worshiping lunatics. Nice job there BushCo. Thanks a bunch.

Hopefully we get MTV on all of their TV sets in the next decade and they'll be too busy sodomizing their imaginations to sexy girls in rap videos to make it to Terror 101.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 5:21 PM

REAVERMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
What we have done is to make demonizing us an easy sell. We have never done what we should have when we could have, which was to do business with these nations on the condition that they adopt certain democratic principles.

Yes because democratizing them has worked so well. You ever wonder why Iraq is such a clusterfuck now, when it was nice and quiet before? It's because we've given people there the freedom to act on their old hatreds.

Under Saddam, the warring sects wouldn't dare to bring their chaos to Iraq's streets, or their balls would get the electroshock treatment until they fell off. Was Saddam brutal? Yes. Amoral? By the standards of most Americans, yes. But was he effective at keeping order? Hell yes.

You see, Saddam understood Iraq in a way that most Americans seem to be incapable of. Iraq is patchwork of people, wildly diverse. Much like the U.S., really, except that the different groups that occupy the country are all out for each-other's blood. The Arabs think the Persians are mongrels, the Sunnis think the Shiites are blasphemers, and vice-versa, and the Kurds despise anyone who tries to alter their way of life, which is pretty much everyone else in the Middle East. If you give enough freedom to these groups, the best case scenario is they fight a brief civil war, and the country fragments, and maybe gets gobbled up by Iran. More likely, you'll get a full-on multi-sided civil war/extermination campaign.

Saddam understood that the only way to rule a united Iraq was with an iron fist, and he did quite successfully, at least until he made an enemy out of his former ally, the U.S.

You see, democracy only works in a culturally united society, or at least one where the various subgroups don't all want to slaughter each other. We shouldn't have propped up a democratic republic in Iraq. In doing so, we invited the extremists on all sides to take advantage of their newfound freedom. We should have set up a U.S. friendly, slightly less bloodthirsty (but still ruthless) version of Saddam. It's not like there's no historical precedent. The U.S. did it all the time during the Cold War to keep communist regimes out of power. And in most cases it worked.

----------------------------
"O' course, ya couldn't buy an invite with a diamond the size of a testicle, but luckily I got my hands on a couple." -Badger

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 6:27 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

And. of course, since there's one guy saying it out loud on TV, it MUST be the main and only goal of everybody that shares that religion.

Would you accept such broad accuations against Christianity, based on what a nutsack like Donald Wildmon says in a TV interview? Would you accept it if Jerry Falwell said it ("America got what it deserved on 9/11"), or Reverend Hagee ("New Orleans had it coming")

One Muslim says it, and you're all running and ducking, completely ignoring that what you accuse him of, we have plenty enough of already, on the so-called "Christian" side...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 6:45 PM

I wonder if the "Nation" of Islam hates us because of what Rush Limbaugh says or because of what Al Franken says?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 8:24 PM

RIGHTEOUS9

Reaverman...

I slightly mistated so let me clear it up for you...

You're right...you take a desperate populace that has been given reasons to hate its neighbors and now you tell it its supposed to work with those people democratically, that plan is doomed to fail.

I typed that part fast so I didnt' choose my words carefully to fit my point. It's not the democracy we needed to force the regimes to impart, it was the equity...the improvement of the standard of living for the people. You create that, you create a populace that is far more stable, far more demanding of its own rights, far more capable of appreciating democracy and expecting something out of it.

We could look at the exploding wealth within the merchant class in England before the signing of the Magna Carta as an arguable example of what happens when you have a wealthier healthier populace with enough liesure time and mental nutrition to question the status quo. Granted, it was the barons that got pissed off but they enlisted the help of a populace with their own demands, some of which made it into the document.

Then you see, the common enemy of the people would be the regime. They would bond together enough to deal with that enemy. They would want stability, not fatwa, because they've seen the benefits of stability and freedom from cruel and unusual punishment first hand...they would all want to continue to perpetuate that...save a diminishing group of crazies that would eventually have to change their message of hate to something more palletable to a new world.

I know this is theorycrafting, but I think there are elements in history to support the kinds of outside influences that force change, because the populace begins to demand it once they get a real taste of it.

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 9:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
It's not the democracy we needed to force the regimes to impart, it was the equity...the improvement of the standard of living for the people. You create that, you create a populace that is far more stable, far more demanding of its own rights, far more capable of appreciating democracy and expecting something out of it.

Beauty of a post all around, that was Righteous9.

So now I wanna know why Haliburton is there making money hands over fist when we could be employing Iraqis to do anything they're doing and upping their quality of life in the mean time. Eventually, if these people were all starting to get decent jobs and some basic rights that come with true Democracy then their neighbors might become a little jealous of them and try to emulate what is happening there. If that was done right and people over there actually came to like us, we might even end up with a powerfull unified ally if a REAL threat like China or Russia ever decide they'd like to wipe us off the map.

Kinda reminds me of the story of Job. Of course these people are willing to die for Allah. A god, whatever name he/she/it goes by is always worshiped by people who have nothing and nothing to live for on this earth. The more decadent a people become the more secular they become. It is a direct correlation which could be plotted visually on a graph and proven time and time again in history. Even if you don't believe anything literally happened that is in the Bible, it definately does speak many truths of man.... strenghths, weaknesses, good and evil. It's all in there.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 10:03 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I'm not ignoring anything Finn. I'm aware of the problem, but it doesn't justify imperialism or flushing billions of dollars we're borrowing from the FED a month down the shitter either.

I've got several months supply of food, I've got tools, I'm armed and I'm always looking for ways to better my position in the off chance that anything happens one day that screws with the infrastructure here so badly that these things we take for granted aren't so easily accessable.

Knowing this, and knowing that I don't work in any tall buildings or other likely targets for a terrorist attack, I feel relatively comfortable with the notion of them bringing it again. The truth is though, I don't think that will ever happen.

Well, this kind of proves my own point, I think. Basically what you’re telling me is that you’re prepared to weather an attack, but not interested in preventing it. I don’t think weathering the attack is the solution, that’s just the contingency plan if the solution does work.

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 11:23 PM

I do understand your point Finn and I can't entirely disagree with it. I just don't appreciate them printing money out of thin air and killing the value of the currency I've managed to save up in the process to do it. Which, by the way, there is ZERO coincidence that today we are paying nearly $4.00 a gallon for gas. That shit is directly corrolated. It's not that gas has risen to a record high of $126 dollars a barrel, it's that the value of the American Dollar (the currency oil is graded in) has plummeted since 2001 and we're all paying twice as much for things like gas, eggs and cheese as a result. I'm not blaming this entirely on the war, as there is many other avenues of needless government spending and creating money needlessly (see: War on College Students thread), it just happens to be the one that pisses me off most.

Basically, it's as if every month the government is splitting the stock (US Dollar) and instead of me getting reimbursed money to make up for the devaluation of the stock, they're pissing the split away picking fights with people who live half a world away from me with it.

Not to mention the imperialism aspect of it all. That's not what we're here to do and we're basically giving Russia or China the green-light to do the very same thing to us someday. How hard do you think, honestly, it would be for either of those super-powers to put enough propoganda out there that their people will be in full agreement (like the entire US was behind Bush circa 2001) that the only way to prevent the US from invading them was to destroy us first? Regardless of what really happened here on 9/11, do you really think China's government would have any qualms about sacraficing 10,000 of their own people if they could make it look like it was an act of war initiated on our part?

We can't keep preaching one thing to the world and our own people while doing the exact opposite. It's transparent and we're not fooling anyone and we're dangerously setting prescident that we will not be able to justify if we're ever the ones on trial. (Another BIG reason why I fear the UN's power, becauase we're going to get stomped on quite a bit if we ever cede power to them. Coincidentally, it's just another reason why I fear Obama because I think within eight years of Obama rule we're going to be just another seat at the UN table)

I don't know what the answer is Finn. My head isn't in the clouds or up my ass about the issue, as I've given it very much thought. All I can do is prepare for the worst. What I've done is secure my stability, at least for a half year or more, in the case of any national tragedy/emergency. In doing so, I'm simply not afraid anymore. If you're not afraid, the terrorists can't beat you.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 7:08 AM

America loves a winner!

Frem, I find it interesting that as I merely post the factual event on the board, you first accuse me of being 'scared' , which is just a way to completely miss the whole point of the article. Then you try to dismiss the message by killing the messenger, with a jaded opinion piece by a well known anti-American 'Guardian' paper , and of course, Wikipedia.

If you can't come up w/ an bona fide alternate translation which shows a vastly different message, then you really don't have a point after all.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 10:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Then you try to dismiss the message by killing the messenger, with a jaded opinion piece by a well known anti-American 'Guardian' paper , and of course, Wikipedia.

Erm, you do realise that you start the sentence by saying you can't dismiss the message by attacking the messenger, which is true its called an Ad Hominem, but you ended it by erm, dismissing the message by attacking the messenger... Good job!

It's certainly more relevant than some unsubstantiated raving about the "anti-Americanism" of the Guardian.

Beyond that, if this translation is accurate, this guy sounds like a Muslim version of AURaptor, so it's pretty disturbing yeah.

EDIT:
Though, questioning the correctness of the translation made by a source of questionable motives is, yanno, actually relevant. Not that I'm endorsing the objection in anyway, but if MEMRI has a historical precedent in bad translation, it's a very valid point, in in lieu of another translation. Of course one can't actually attack the message by attacking the translator, the translator shouldn't be pushing a message, should they.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 10:30 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Then you try to dismiss the message by killing the messenger, with a jaded opinion piece by a well known anti-American 'Guardian' paper , and of course, Wikipedia.
Erm, you do realise that you start the sentence by saying you can't dismiss the message by attacking the messenger, which is true its called an Ad Hominem, but you ended it by erm, dismissing the message by attacking the messenger... Good job!

Though, questioning the correctness of the translation made by a source of questionable motives is, yanno, actually relevant. It's certainly more relevant than some unsubstantiated raving about the "anti-Americanism" of the Guardian.

Beyond that, this guy sounds like a Muslim version of AURaptor, so it's pretty disturbing yeah.

Bottom line, if you can't offer up an alternative translation that dispels the basic message as it's presented, there really is no valid point here.

Suggesting that I some how promote a world dominated by one religion, one nation , one race or anything remotely close to that only shows citizen has the comprehension skills of a moldy tomato.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 10:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Bottom line, if you can't offer up an alternative translation that dispels the basic message as it's presented, there really is no valid point here.

Bottom line, questioning the correctness of a translation from a known bad source, is still valid even without an alternate translation. What it doesn't do is give us a better translation, but it's still perfectly fine to bring the one in hand in to judgement, no matter how many times one says "no I like this one, it pushes my agenda, I'm not listening, lalala!"

I'm not even making the case that it's a bad translation, I'm just pointing out that we don't need an alternate translation in order to question the one we have.

Quote:
This guy sounds exactly opposite to me, so what ever point citizen is attempting to make, he's failed. Again.

No, that was the point, thanks for confirming it

. You're the exact opposite of him, in the same way Misandry is the exact opposite of Misogyny...

The above was edited too:

Quote:
Suggesting that I some how promote a world dominated by one religion, one nation , one race or anything remotely close to that only shows citizen has the comprehension skills of a moldy tomato.

And saying that that is what I'm suggesting proves AURaptor is either the stupidest moron, the biggest liar, or (more likely) both, on this site.

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 10:46 AM

America loves a winner!

Citizen, your comprehension of the word " opposite " leaves much to be desired. Moldy tomato.

Thanks for proving my point.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 10:51 AM

America loves a winner!

The burden of proof for those making the claim that a group is suspect lies upon those making the charge. If you have nothing to base your accusations on, then your claims are nigh meaningless. It goes further to merely ask as to the qualifications or legitimacy of MEMRI. No, you're siding w/ the notion that, by default, MEMRI should not be trusted, or their translations are suspect, with nothing to support that position.

No, instead all some have are childish insults, inane accusations and absurd comparisons.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 10:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Citizen, your comprehension of the word " opposite " leaves much to be desired. Moldy tomato.

Thanks for proving my point.

If you think I've proved your point, your comprehension of the English language leaves much to be desired. Wet Cabbage.

Thanks for proving you are the stupidest moron on the site.

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 10:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The burden of proof for those making the claim that a group is suspect lies upon those making the charge. If you have nothing to base your accusations on, then your claims are nigh meaningless.

You're making claims based on the say so of a source known to be suspect, but I guess burden of proof only counts for things you don't like the sound of huh...

If a source has shown to be bad in the past, it's a good idea to treat it's information as suspect in future, unless it says what you want to hear huh...

Quote:
No, you're siding w/ the notion that, by default, MEMRI should not be trusted, or their translations are suspect, with nothing to support that position.

You mean like saying wikipedia or the Guardian can't be trusted about anything on your say so. Or is it different when you do it?

Quote:
No, instead all some have are childish insults, inane accusations and absurd comparisons.

Which is the only way you ever respond to anyone, but I'm used to your legendary hypocrisy

. I find comparing you, an "Americano-Fascist" to an "Islamo-Fascist", more and more adroit.

They promote attacking and killing people in the name of their religion, with vague arguments, with some factual basis, that those people are attacking them. They turn a blind eye to, or excuse their 'sides' actions toward that end.

You promote attacking and killing people because of their religion, with vague arguments, with some factual basis, that they're attacking you. You turn a blind eye to, or excuse your 'sides' actions toward that end.

Yeah, not one valid comparison there...

What's that I hear AU? "it's ok when I do it..."

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 11:24 AM

FREMDFIRMA

How bout going on the evidence.

Fact - MEMRI has in the past skewed translations, this is not whatever in doubt and they've been caught at it.

Fact - MEMRI is run by folks with a vested interest in shading translation, and financed by relatively few folks who also have a vested interest.

Those two undisputed facts lead me to believe their translation is suspect, if one merely scrolls up they can see that I simply stated that the odds were very good that a straight-meaning translation from another source would NOT match MEMRIs translation, and offered to make book on it (metaphorically) if anyone cared to go find one.

So far no one has cared to, and I do not have the time, too much on my plate already.

-F

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 11:30 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Citizen, your comprehension of the word " opposite " leaves much to be desired. Moldy tomato.

Thanks for proving my point.
If you think I've proved your point, your comprehension of the English language leaves much to be desired. Wet Cabbage.

Thanks for proving you are the stupidest moron on the site.

The fact that I have no interest or goals of seeing a race, religion, state, RULE THE WORLD is evident enough that citizen is , beyond doubt, an example of why citizen is the dumbest moron on this, or any site.

What's the opposite of one religion rule ? Many ( and no ) religious participation.

” This morning on Al-Jazeera TV, I saw American scientists and strategic theoreticians, who said that America would soon come to its end. " - This is how the Islamo Muslims brainwash folks, by stating fabricated stories, out right lies. To the contrary, I suggest honesty and a free discussion of FACTS instead. Not a flip side ( which is what citizen's addled brain is TRYING to paint my position as here ) to what the Muslims are preaching.

So, to review

Muslims want the world to submit,
I want a world full of freedom

Muslims want to dominate the world
I want free and open cooperation

Muslims want to control your life
I think folks have every right to live their lives, as long as nothing they do hinders or denies anyone else's rights by force or fraud.

And yet citizen thinks , w/ his moldy tomato for a brain, that I sound like Sheik Ali Al-Faqi. It's a wonder citizen knows which end of the tooth brush to put the tooth paste on.

( Oh, that's right. He's British. Never mind )

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 11:46 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
How bout going on the evidence.

Fact - MEMRI has in the past skewed translations, this is not whatever in doubt and they've been caught at it.

Fact - MEMRI is run by folks with a vested interest in shading translation, and financed by relatively few folks who also have a vested interest.

Those two undisputed facts lead me to believe their translation is suspect, if one merely scrolls up they can see that I simply stated that the odds were very good that a straight-meaning translation from another source would NOT match MEMRIs translation, and offered to make book on it (metaphorically) if anyone cared to go find one.

So far no one has cared to, and I do not have the time, too much on my plate already.

-F

Have they 'skewed' translations on purpose, or gotten something wrong , by mistake, or simple translation error ? Saying they've been "caught " suggests intentional deception on their part. I'd like to see the evidence of that , if possible.

More opinion , than fact. Seems to me, ( opinion here ) that MIMRI is simply taking a position that the West needs a clear, honest translation of what is being reported, and the current news agencies ( al Jazzera ) aren't to be trusted as the sole voice of telling the West what is being reported in the Middle East.

Seems rational enough to me.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 12:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The fact that I have no interest or goals of seeing a race, religion, state, RULE THE WORLD is evident enough that citizen is , beyond doubt, an example of why citizen is the dumbest moron on this, or any site.

Liar

Quote:
What's the opposite of one religion rule ? Many ( and no ) religious participation.

And the opposite to wanting Islam to rule the world, would be wanting to eradicate Islam from the world. Which is what you want to do. I realise such a simple concept is beyond your tiny hill billy mind though

Quote:
” This morning on Al-Jazeera TV, I saw American scientists and strategic theoreticians, who said that America would soon come to its end. " - This is how the Islamo Muslims brainwash folks, by stating fabricated stories, out right lies.

Much like how you were brainwashed in fact.

Quote:
To the contrary, I suggest honesty and a free discussion of FACTS instead.

No you don't. If you actually believe that you're delusional.

Quote:
Not a flip side ( which is what citizen's addled brain is TRYING to paint my position as here ) to what the Muslims are preaching.

Except that's exactly what you are. Just because you see your brand of bigoted racist fascism as a good thing doesn't make you any less a bigoted racist fascist.

Quote:
Muslims want the world to submit,
I want a world full of freedom

Muslims want to dominate the world
I want free and open cooperation

Muslims want to control your life
I think folks have every right to live their lives, as long as nothing they do hinders or denies anyone else's rights by force or fraud.

That's all Muslims is it? LOL, you're to easy, I say your a fascist racist bigot, you say "no I'm not because my facist racist bigotry is right!!!"

Yeah, it's not like all fascist racist bigots, think they're own fascist racist bigotry is correct or nuthin'

. You just proved my case for me, cheers

Everything you say you want is a lie. You want none of those things.

So in review
AURaptor thinks all British people have bad teeth based on a cultural stereotype and all Muslims are terrorists, and also apparently these things don't make him a bigot. So, where, in your mind AU, do you think saying outrageously bigoted and racist things prove you're not a bigoted racist?

Quote:
It's a wonder citizen knows which end of the tooth brush to put the tooth paste on.
( Oh, that's right. He's British. Never mind)

But not only that, he uses a picture of a Canadian wearing false teeth to prove it:

Way to prove you're not a moron dumbass! It's a wonder you can tie your own shoelaces, and have enough intelligence to hold down a job.

Oh wait, you are a hill billy related to yourself in a number of illegal ways, never mind

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 12:55 PM

America loves a winner!

go away, troll.

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 1:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
go away, troll.

Aww, painted yourself into a corner with your bigotry and couldn't come up with a comeback. Poor bigot, there there.

As for the Troll remark, I've got a number of real world friends on this site who can vouch for me, you don't. You only troll, and do nothing else, which is why pretty much no one here thinks of you as anything other than a worthless piece of shit.

My opinions tend to run closer to the middle ground in most circumstances, yours are way out on the extreme fringe. My opinions show up as those of a complex real thinking human being. Yours are a cardboard cut out of extreme far right Fascist Authoritarian Conservatism, almost like one would expect of a trollish construct more than a real person.

All the evidence for trollishness points at you cupcake, not me. But keep trying to shovel it, because the more you call me a troll, the more you're going to cause people to think I'm not one.

Or to put it another way:

You're the troll here

Fuck you AUTroll, fuck you very much

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 1:15 PM

America loves a winner!

It's an empty, invalid charge, you calling ME a racist, fascist, what ever, simply because you haven't the intellectual power to debate or discuss me w/ out adding some childish , irrelevant ad hominem.

You got nothin', so there's no reason to treat your remarks as anything other the rants of a petty troll.

Now, go

yourself and get lost.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 1:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
It's an empty, invalid charge, you calling ME a racist, fascist, what ever, simply because you haven't the intellectual power to debate or discuss me w/ out adding some childish , irrelevant ad hominem.

No, I say you're a bigot, a racist and a fascist because you say bigoted racist and fascist things, I realise your retarded mind may not be capable of understanding that distinction. As for lacking intellectual power, you've not had one, not ONE conversation in the RWED where YOU haven't resorted to childish and irrelevant ad hominem, and usually you do it first. You long ago ceased to have the right to a decent conversation, because you are both incapable of one, and obviously don't want one.

Quote:
You got nothin', so there's no reason to treat your remarks as anything other the rants of petty troll.

No, you've got nothing, which is why pretty much everyone already treats everything you say as the 'rants of a petty moronic troll'. You're the problem here, you brainless trolling sack of shit.

Quote:
Now, go yourself and get lost.

Make me, you disgusting piece of sub-human filth. You get lost, because the site would be better off without you.

While you're here the chances of getting the show back are significantly reduced, because no studio would want to be associated with a fandom that includes something like you in it's ranks.

Fuck you, you piece of filth.

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 1:39 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
citizen wrote: I've got a number of real world friends on this site who can vouch for me, you don't. You only troll, and do nothing else, which is why pretty much no one here thinks of you as anything other than a worthless piece of shit.

My opinions tend to run closer to the middle ground in most circumstances, yours are way out on the extreme fringe.

I don't need anyone to vouch for me as to my views. My views are my own. Your inability to debate me on an honest, intellectual level scares you into tossing out childish ad hominem attacks, which is understandable. Unlike you, I can stand on my own w/ my views. I'm comfortable enough and knowledgeable enough to explain my views to those willing to have the security of their flock mentality challenged. Because that's what you are...a sheep, protected by the imaginary safety of the dupes around you.

But it's fine that you hate me. You're scared, and it shows. Now scurry back to the flock, boy. Seek comfort in your friends, who'll tell you it's all o.k.

There there, widdle lamb.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 1:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I don't need anyone to vouch for me as to my views. My views are my own.

Neither do I, but the fact that I've met, and I'm really real friends with people on this site, and you haven't and don't, speaks volumes about what you really are.

Quote:
Your inability to debate me on an honest, intellectual level scares you into tossing out childish ad hominem attacks, which is understandable.

No, this is you you're thinking of. YOU'RE the one who has NEVER had an actual debate with anyone without resorting to name calling, not me, YOU.

Quote:
Unlike you, I can stand on my own w/ my views.

I have done this, you NEVER have. QED.

Quote:
I'm comfortable enough and knowledgeable enough to explain my views to those willing to have the security of their flock mentality challenged.

You've never done this, not once, ever. You are either delusional or a liar.

Quote:
Because that's what you are...a sheep, protected by the imaginary safety of the dupes around you.

Again, talking about yourself, just like a good little troll.

Quote:
But it's fine that you hate me.

I don't hate you you brainless twit. I want to prevent you from spreading your evil and this is the best way to do it. Your the one with a hardon for hating people

Quote:
You're scared, and it shows. Now scurry back to the flock, boy.

Not really. You're the one who's forever shitting himself over muslims under his bed, not me. Now scurry back to rush limbaugh so he can tell you what to think next

Quote:
Seek comfort in your friends, who'll tell you it's all o.k.

Comfort is part of what having friends is all about, if you'd ever had any you'd know that.

Go be a racist coward elsewhere, we'd all be better off with out you, your lies and your evil.

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 1:53 PM

CHRISISALL

Now I AM peeing my kilt.

isall

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 2:09 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
citizen posted :While you're here the chances of getting the show back are significantly reduced, because no studio would want to be associated with a fandom that includes something like you in it's ranks.

To the contrary, they'd see I've been a fan here for longer than you, over a full year and a half longer, and my enthusiasm for this show is exactly what they'd want. I was at the 2nd early prescreening ( back in May , '05) for the BDM, and the premier , which only a handful of die hard Browncoats even KNEW about , before the BDM officially opened in Sept. i've bought several copies of the FIREFLY dvd set, donating to the troops in Iraq, as well as our local library. And before you accuse me of bragging, I've met others who have done WORLDS more for the Firefly 'verse, working in association to Equality Now, and a host of other endeavors. And that's what I think makes us mighty. All manner of folks, come together for different reasons, to show appreciation to thems that made Firefly possible and to do even more. Doing what ever small or large bit they can do to help.

Though I'd sure wish some wouldn't make such constant asses of themselves. That'd sure be nice.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 2:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
To the contrary, they'd see I've been a fan here for longer than you, over a full year and a half longer, and my enthusiasm for this show is exactly what they'd want.

Doesn't stop you being the kind of person studios don't want to associate with.

Quote:
And before you accuse me of bragging, I've met others who have done WORLDS more for the Firefly 'verse, working in association to Equality Now, and a host of other endeavors.

I could care less what you say you've done, or how that makes you more of a fan than anyone else.

Quote:
And that's what I think makes us mighty. All manner of folks, come together for different reasons, to show appreciation to thems that made Firefly possible and to do even more. Doing what ever small or large bit they can do to help.

Yeah, and you sure exude that here. I'm throwing your attitude back at you, and you don't like it.

Quote:
Though I'd sure wish some wouldn't make such constant asses of themselves. That'd sure be nice.

Yes, but you keep doing it, which is why nearly everyone around here has such a low opinion of you.

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 2:26 PM

America loves a winner!

You're not " throwing my attitude back at me ", you're acting like a child, in saying " AM NOT, THAT'S YOU! " Seriously, look at your post above, that's ALL your replies are like! Do you even HAVE an original thought in your brain ?

If I said the sun will rise tomorrow in the East, you'd just say the opposite, and say it'll set in the East. And then call me a name for even thinking the sun will rise in the East, or worse, spreading the view that the sun will rise in the East.

Man, must suck to be you.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 2:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
You're not " throwing my attitude back at me ", you're acting like a child, in saying " AM NOT, THAT'S YOU! " Seriously, look at your post above, that's ALL your replies are like! Do you even HAVE an original thought in your brain ?

That's exactly what I'm doing. Most of my posts aren't like that, its the ones to you that are like that, because I'm responding to you the way you respond to everyone else. I speak to you exactly the way you speak to me, and anyone else who doesn't agree with you. I'm saying "no thats you", because everything you've picked out as my traits, are yours you brainless little turd. The fact that you can't even see the way you treat other people, and the way you get so very very angry when they treat you the same way, speaks volumes about the kind of person you really are.

Quote:
If I said the sun will rise tomorrow in the East, you'd just say the opposite, and say it'll set in the East. And then call me a name for even thinking the sun will rise in the East, or worse, spreading the view that the sun will rise in the East.

No, you just like to think the world revolves around you.

No wonder people have such consistently low opinions of you. It must suck to be your family.

You're the very antithesis of a decent human being.

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 2:54 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
You're the very antithesis of a decent human being.

And yet, I'm much more than you'll ever be. That must piss you off to no end.

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 3:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
And yet, I'm much more than you'll ever be. That must piss you off to no end.

Not really, because:
a) You're not 'more' than me or anyone else, and never could be, and
b) You're the only person who'd ever make that statement. Largely because you are such a worthless waste of space you have to proclaim yourself as otherwise.

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 3:16 PM

America loves a winner!

No.I'm just a realist, and refuse to live in a fantasy land where all cultures and everyone is equally happy, friendly and full of loving life. The real world ain't like that, not in the least. And it upsets your apple cart when I correctly label the islamo fascists for what they are. You call me 'bigoted' because YOU don't like it when groups of folks are painted all one color. Well, guess what..... i'm not the one painting them that color, they are. As the quote by Dennis Praeger in my sig clarifies below. You're the one who wants to use the broad brush on ME in accusing that I view ALL Muslims that way, which I don't. But it's easier for you to carry on your pathetic little life if you simplify things down to their lowest common denominator... ' Pushy American hates foreigners " blah blah blah.

I can already predict what you're going to say..... " You hate all Muslims, even though you say you don't. " . i state my views on something, you have no rational / coherent response to my comment, other than to call me a liar. You have nothing to prove that I'm lying, only your bruised ego , by being humiliated , again, in front of all your 'friends'. So, call me a liar, call me a name, that still won't change the facts. Facts like how some, but not all, Muslims have a zealous , hateful and twisted view of their own religion, and they'll stop at nothing to convert or kill those who don't agree. Even other Muslims, hell.... especially other Muslims, who actually do live a life of peace. Or try to.

Ok then, back to sleep for you.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 4:59 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
go away, troll.

I hear that if you don't feed them they'll go away. On the other hand you do seem to have trained him to follow you from thread to thread talking like Pee Wee Herman. Might make a good pet if you could train him to do other tricks.

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 5:09 PM

SERGEANTX

I'm just waiting for them to roll out the 'yo momma' jabs.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, May 11, 2008 11:01 PM