Why George Bush is a great man & a very good President by chrisisall

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Did Nero really fiddle while Rome burned? Historians say no - but the PERCEPTION was that he did nothing. And realistically, what was he going to do, put out the fires by himself? But because he was seen as not doing anything, that's the image that stuck throughout history. Bush will have the same image, fiddling away while the towers collapsed, fiddling away while Katrina flooded, fiddling away while the economy collapsed, and playing an encore in the face of global climate change...

Realistically, Nero wasn’t even in Rome at the time of the fires, but yes that’s the kind of fabrication that I’m talking about, except that in Nero’s case, I understand it. Nero had people burned on poles just to light his parties. He was a real evil bastard, but George Bush doesn’t do those kinds of things. It’s not even possible for someone in this country to have that kind of power. Yet, here we are with people creating fabrications to justify outrageous hatred of a national leader? And some of you, like Storymark for instance, are really invested in this lie. He gets furious if you challenge this fabricated view of George Bush, because he has accepted, like many Bush-haters, these fabrications as absolute truth.

So the state has changed - political leaders no longer burn people as tiki torches, but the mob has not. The mob remains as furious and irrational has ever. Only now the rational members of society don’t have as much reason to sympathize with you. I understand why people hated Nero, but hatred of Bush, especially for the reasons given, is just idiotic. And this is really something to worried about, because our political system today, a government for the people and by the people, depends on the people evolving away from their earlier attitudes as well, but that hasn’t seemed to have been as successful.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
My opposition to the Bush regime comes from the knowledge that he is simply not a bright person. He lacks intelligence (in more ways than one, as evidenced on 9/11 and after), he lacks curiosity, he lacks reasoning skills; in short, he's certainly not one of his father's "thousand points of light". In that analogy, he's the dim bulb.

This isn’t “knowledge.” There’s no way you could know this. This is more fiddling on the roof.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008 3:35 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Are you sure ? You sound sure. How do you know that ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008 3:46 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Are you sure ? You sound sure. How do you know that ?

Finn has a hard time with the idea that the President of the United States could be just a regular dope that bought the office with family ties & money (sorry Finn, I call 'em as I see 'em).

isall

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008 4:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Finn has a hard time with the idea that the President of the United States could be just a regular dope that bought the office with family ties & money (sorry Finn, I call 'em as I see 'em).

As usual, you need glasses, because this is your story and storymark story. You’re the ones that can’t except that the president isn’t superman with superhero strengths.

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008 4:17 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"You’re the ones that can’t accept that the president isn’t superman with superhero strengths."

I'd settle for average with a shred of integrity.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008 4:50 PM

HAVOCMAN

He's certainly the best we've had since Reagan. Better than Kennedy, LBJ, and Carter, too. Clinton...no contest. Better than Gore (inventor of the intarwebs!) would have been.

His response to terrorism has been pretty much on target. His predecessors treated terrorism as a law enforcement issue. That attitude is what led to 9/11/01. Our enemies expected more of the same from GW. He threw 'em for a loop, that's for sure. They are on the run now. Ask a Soldier or Marine...and thank 'em.

Anybody tries to kill ya, you kill 'em right back. Sound familiar?

I would've liked to see GW reduce the size of government.

He should have done more with enforcing and protecting our southern border.

I think creating DHS was a mistake. Should have given that mission to existing .gov entities.

Looking back, he should have done something about our energy supplies, too. If the dang French can pull off Nuclear energy, so can we. We need to drill in Alaska and off our coastlines.

On a scale of 10, with 10 being good (Reagan), I'd give him a 7. I like him.

Here's something I don't get about GW opponents ... on the one hand, ya'all call him a moron, idiot, etc. Then on the other hand, ya'all believe he is some kind of super-secret ultra-crook who can keep everyone from knowing "The Truth". How exactly does that work?

GW is "The Man".

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008 4:55 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

It doesn't work that way except in your (assuming) mind. 'We' don't think he's a moron and also super-evil dude. And why you would make such assumptions says more about you than anyone else.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008 4:56 PM

HAVOCMAN

...and humans have no impact on global warming. None. Nada. Zip. Zero.

The Earth is a big rock. We occupy a small part of it. To think that we can control the environment - intentionally or not - is just dang crazy.

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008 5:02 PM

HAVOCMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
'We' don't think he's a moron and also super-evil dude.

The opposition has likened GW to Hitler (evil genius) and has also called him a moron. That's not my imagination.

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008 5:10 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I've read the word fascism is many discussions, but nowhere have I noticed comparisons between Bush and Hitler.

And fascism and Hilter are two different words, you may have noticed. Or maybe not.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008 5:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HavocMan:
...and humans have no impact on global warming. None. Nada. Zip. Zero.

The Earth is a big rock. We occupy a small part of it. To think that we can control the environment - intentionally or not - is just dang crazy.

You do realize that your statement directly contravenes Bush Administration doctrine, as of today. He said in an interview with NBC that mankind has "of course" contributed to global warming and made it worse. And his administration today placed the Polar Bear on the list of threatened species, because of (in their words) the disappearing polar ice due to man-made global warming.

So... are YOU lying, or is the Administration lying?

We don't "control" the environment, but we DO contribute to it. There's a difference, although I'm not sure you realize it.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008 6:39 PM

PHOENIXSHIP

Quote:
Another proponent of the Batman philosophy of presidential conduct. What should he have done? Run out to the ruins of the WTC and exclaim to Cheney, “Those dastardly villains!!!”

Okay, Mr. Finn, I haven't posted in months, but your ignorance and stubbornness really inspired me. Listen closely (read my lips, indeed):

We are not saying he should have turned into a superhero. We are saying he should have behaved like the leader of this country, stood up, excused himself calmly from the rest of the 3rd graders, and at least found out what the fuck was going on. Do you get it? Face it, he's a terrible leader - not because he's a Republican or a conservative. He's a terrible leader because he's an amoral, soulless little insect of a man who doesn't give a shit about you or anyone else who isn't his friend or a rich oilman.

Do you really not understand? Really, I'm asking sincerely.

I forgot how to use these damned HTML tags. Cripes. And where the hell is PIRATENEWS?

"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008 6:55 PM

PHOENIXSHIP

Quote:
Originally posted by HavocMan:
He's certainly the best we've had since Reagan. Better than Kennedy, LBJ, and Carter, too. Clinton...no contest. Better than Gore (inventor of the intarwebs!) would have been.

Impossible to prove either way, but I respectfully disagree!
Quote:

His response to terrorism has been pretty much on target.

Except for the whole Afghanistan/Iraq confusion.

Quote:
His predecessors treated terrorism as a law enforcement issue. That attitude is what led to 9/11/01. Our enemies expected more of the same from GW. He threw 'em for a loop, that's for sure. They are on the run now. Ask a Soldier or Marine...and thank 'em.

Anybody tries to kill ya, you kill 'em right back. Sound familiar?

Unless they're from Saudi, homeland of the 9/11 attackers, or drug lords in Afghanistan, or Shiites who were just months ago killing GIs and are now on the payroll.

Quote:
I would've liked to see GW reduce the size of government.

I agree... this is what Republicans used to stand for.

Quote:
He should have done more with enforcing and protecting our southern border.

I think creating DHS was a mistake. Should have given that mission to existing .gov entities.

Yes... DHS is the seed of destruction for this great country. Truly dangerous and evil, even though it's full of otherwise decent people.

Quote:
Looking back, he should have done something about our energy supplies, too. If the dang French can pull off Nuclear energy, so can we. We need to drill in Alaska and off our coastlines.

I think this is a losing proposition. We need to evolve into some different energy sources. It's time.

Quote:
On a scale of 10, with 10 being good (Reagan), I'd give him a 7. I like him.

Here's something I don't get about GW opponents ... on the one hand, ya'all call him a moron, idiot, etc. Then on the other hand, ya'all believe he is some kind of super-secret ultra-crook who can keep everyone from knowing "The Truth". How exactly does that work?

That's a good question... I'd say he's a basically amoral, and not too bright, just easily led by a powerful personality like Cheney or God knows who. I don't believe there's a super-secret conspiracy, just a tragically apathetic population who wasn't paying attention.

Quote:
GW is "The Man".

I defend and support your right to say this. Because I haven't received a National Security Letter w/gag order from the CIA.

"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008 9:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
I could argue that New Labour is a direct result of Thatcherism in both style and policy. Cameron looks like a nice bloke but seems a little "wet." I suspect Europe will remain the Tory Kryptonite, a pity, you have to be in it to change it and Europe desperately needs changing.

I agree. Whatever is going to happen in the future, I think a Unified Europe is one of those things. It will happen with us, or without us, without us it'll be a French-German Empire, run for the French and Germans, at the expense of everyone else. With us it could hopefully be something more equal, if we can drive a wedge between France and Germany. It's been Britain's function for the last few hundred years squashing petty dictators and their designs on European Empire...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008 9:21 PM

FLETCH2

Europe has to be of benefit to Europeans and to some extent it has been, there is no other trading block that allows the free and easy migration of labour that Europe allows, something I've taken full advantage of. If an American has the wrong kind of health plan he can have trouble finding a doctor to treat him even in the neighboring state, contrast that with the EHIC card.

European superstate... that we can do without, any form of European government should be limited to issues best tackled at that level. More regional autonomy not less is the answer, we should direct research to areas that give maximum return on investment or maximum social benefit, oh and we need a real space program.

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 1:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenixship:
Republican or a conservative. He's a terrible leader because he's an amoral, soulless little insect of a man who doesn't give a shit about you or anyone else who isn't his friend or a rich oilman.

And you surmise this because he didn’t become a tv action hero for the cameras, huh? This is really sad, that so many of you confuse reality with tv.

So the president should have jumped to action? Dramatically excused himself from a classroom in Florida, then what? He was in Florida, and as far as anyone knew this was World War III. Maybe he should have used his cell phone and called in orders to the joint chiefs? That only works in the movies. Maybe he should have run back to the Whitehouse? In the movies they could just change scenes and he’d be there, but in reality, it would have taken hours and diverted manpower and attention away from the events that morning. So in the end, what would all this superhero stuff accomplish in the real world? Nothing.

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 1:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
European superstate... that we can do without, any form of European government should be limited to issues best tackled at that level. More regional autonomy not less is the answer, we should direct research to areas that give maximum return on investment or maximum social benefit, oh and we need a real space program.

I think that's where Europe is headed, whether we like it or not. It would be better for us to be in it, than 'under it', which I think would happen if we let France, Germany and Brussels dictate terms. How I see Europe is rather different than how those currently constructing it see it though, I'd push for an internally autonomous, externally coherent setup. Something similar to the pre-Civil War US, but with perhaps more regional autonomy for individual states.

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 1:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by tristanperry:
Destruction of UK industry was down to the TUs resisting change. We were being controlled by the Trade Unions, and ultimately they needed tackling at some point. It was obviously always going to be a political nightmare, although someone had to do it.

Except it was the changes Thatcher enacted that were actually responsible for much of it's decline. The Trade Union's resistance to change is what probably really did for the Trade Unions, but it was Thatcher that broke up British Industry.

Quote:
And private house ownership is something that loads of people (where I live) somehow praise Labour for (the voters around here suck - they honestly believe that being allowed to buy your council house was a Labour policy..) It is a popular move overall, IMHO.

Does popular automatically equate to 'good'?

Quote:
Either way, she actually stood up for herself and did what she thought was right. I haven't seen/heard of that since Thatcher.

Of course changing one's stripes at the political wind is nothing short of disastrous, but is being the "Iron Lady", as resistive to changing one's mind no matter what the evidence really any better? Surely that's just dictatorial? Would someone in the middle, between Thatcher and Gordon Brown be better?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 2:27 AM

{quote]...as far as anyone knew this was World War III. Maybe he should have used his cell phone and called in orders to the joint chiefs? That only works in the movies. Maybe he should have run back to the Whitehouse?

Yes, as far as anyone knew, this was WWIII, so having the leader of the most powerful nation on Earth sitting on his thumbs isn't exactly the best idea...

You don't think the President of the United States of America is able to be in touch with his Administration when he's out of the White House? Seriously? He couldn't have gotten any updates, any briefing, any intel, because he wasn't at the "Whitehouse"? That, my friend, is a sad state of affairs, because by implication, it means that our current President has been out of touch and not in control of his Administration for more than one-third of his tenure in that office.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 3:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
You don't think the President of the United States of America is able to be in touch with his Administration when he's out of the White House? Seriously? He couldn't have gotten any updates, any briefing, any intel, because he wasn't at the "Whitehouse"? That, my friend, is a sad state of affairs, because by implication, it means that our current President has been out of touch and not in control of his Administration for more than one-third of his tenure in that office.

How do you know he wasn’t trying to receiving intel? You don’t. In fact he was. But most of the leaders were scattered across the world, at that time. Here is this dramatic tv idea that the president is like a warlord who charges into battle at the head of his army and micromanages every event of the battle. It’s ingrained into the tv generation, I guess.

As a general rule, the president should avoid micromanaging events of war or disasters, since he’s not a trained military general or disaster relief personnel.

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 3:05 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
List it my peeps; I need some good fantasy...

I wanted to jump in on this, but with 121 posts of Bush bashing, I figured it'd get old quick, so many apologies ahead of time if this had already been posted.

Truth is, I don't hate the man. I'm sure he believe that he did the best he could do with what he was given. For anyone to think that just because he held the title of President of the United States that he is the most powerful man in the free world is pure fantasy. He is just somebody that the truly powerful and behind the scenes guys for life have to put up with for 4 or at most 8 years. More important is the party behind the president in determining how important events are handled.

Unfortunately, I have no more love for Obama or Clinton in the race than I have McCain because neither of them will do anything but make life harder and give me more to bitch about. Being a middle-class earner and saver leaning much closer to lower-class than burnin' Benjamins rich, there isn't a serious presidental candidate out there that will do anything different for me.

All those sad truths being said, I have a few lighter reasons that Bush is a great man.

1) If the Demoncrats win, he will give us something to look back on and wish we still had.

2) If the Rethuglicans win, he will serve as a template for imperialism worldwide and privacy annhialation stateside. This template will actually be acquired by Microsoft in a hostile takeover of the American Government and be available to the Alex P. Keatonites as part of the MS Office 2010 features.

3) The man and his father were so badass that they had beer named after them before I was born because they were destined to be great men. Forget about that stupid library Mr. President. You have a beer named after you, which was named before you. The beer of the people. Does anybody even go to a library anymore? When is the last time that you were at a libary Mr. President?

And Now I bid you all farewell. I am heading for the mountains of Bush while this entire world shitstorm blows over. Bonus, 'cause if the icecaps melt like you crazy Science folk say it's pretty high and dry up here.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 3:17 AM

The man was utterly clueless that fateful morning. Our country was under attack and he didn't do his job....period. An adult ( is he one ) could have just said..." Hey kids, your President needs to leave for a minute." No kid would have been traumatized by that. Then he could have done his Presidential thing...like find out what the fuck was going on. I still would like to know why the Bin Laden family was rounded up and flown out of America. Has that ever been answered? Then the jerk challenges the Taliban to surrender Osama, as if they ever would...he gives them 30 days...30 fucking days...result? Bin Laden gone, Mullah Omar gone, Al Zawahiri gone! Shit, I would have leveled Kabul that night. He chose to send our troops into staging areas outside Iraq all the while giving the phony appearance of UN cooperation. Iraq WAS a stable place under the Huesseins, and it was a great adversary against Iran...we needed Saddam and his ruthless regime to keep the religious maniacs in check...so what happens...Osama & boys are gone..then the country goes into anarchy & civil war...with our troops in the crossfire as high value targets. I hope someday to see Cheney & Rumsfeld sent to prison for their roles in these debacles. I expected better from them.

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 3:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
The man was utterly clueless that fateful morning. Our country was under attack and he didn't do his job....period. An adult ( is he one ) could have just said..." Hey kids, your President needs to leave for a minute." No kid would have been traumatized by that. Then he could have done his Presidential thing...like find out what the fuck was going on.

He could do that just fine where he was.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I still would like to know why the Bin Laden family was rounded up and flown out of America. Has that ever been answered?

Never happened.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Then the jerk challenges the Taliban to surrender Osama, as if they ever would...he gives them 30 days...30 fucking days...result? Bin Laden gone, Mullah Omar gone, Al Zawahiri gone! Shit, I would have leveled Kabul that night.

And how would you have justified that?

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 3:34 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Maybe there ain't no funny left in this thread, cause I ain't read it, but that certainly wasn't funny Jongs.... and just as certainly I can't disagree with any of that and knowing where you used to stand that's saying quite a bit about your position now. Wish I had a better answer for the vote in November, but once again as is always, the media controls what people vote for and we've got 3 horrible answers to the question "How do we make it right for our kids now?"

The only right answer to that question is to build a Firefly and put as much distance between you and this rock as you can before they reach adulthood.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 3:40 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
He could do that just fine where he was.

But he didn't. I saw the video of his elementary-school visit. There were no whispered conferences, or written or Blackberried communication. Nothing. Finn, you need to see for yourself exactly what DID happen because you're defending something that is apparently totally unknown to you.

As much as you prolly hate Michael Moore, the only media presentation of what actually DID happen is in that movie. Nothing speaks louder than the events themselves, recorded faithfully by a videocam.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 3:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
The man was utterly clueless that fateful morning. Our country was under attack and he didn't do his job....period. An adult ( is he one ) could have just said..." Hey kids, your President needs to leave for a minute." No kid would have been traumatized by that. Then he could have done his Presidential thing...like find out what the fuck was going on.
He could do that just fine where he was.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I still would like to know why the Bin Laden family was rounded up and flown out of America. Has that ever been answered?
Never happened.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Then the jerk challenges the Taliban to surrender Osama, as if they ever would...he gives them 30 days...30 fucking days...result? Bin Laden gone, Mullah Omar gone, Al Zawahiri gone! Shit, I would have leveled Kabul that night.
And how would you have justified that?

a) He wasted potentially valuable minutes before leaving the kids. Maybe those minutes were needed for command & control. Maybe there were going to be more hijacked planes being used as missiles, maybe there were going to be coordinated bombings across America. Commander in Chief needs to be on the horn to his military & civilian subordinates to prepare for invasion, or plan a defense against further attacks.
b) Bin Laden Family....I don't know...you say with authority something else.
c) An act of war is an act of war...3,000 dead American civilians is justification to strike back.

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 3:52 AM

Quote:
He could do that just fine where he was.

The operative word in that statement being "could". He COULD do that; he simply chose not to.

Quote:

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I still would like to know why the Bin Laden family was rounded up and flown out of America. Has that ever been answered?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Never happened.

Ahhhh - once again, all those news sources are simply making that up. Time, Newsweek, CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the Pentagon, the White House...

This has been reported on more than a few times. No Administration source has denied it, that I've ever seen. It's been reported as fact, and never disputed or disproved. So you're saying that there was no flight allowed out of the US in the days immediately following 9/11?

Quote:
Quote:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Then the jerk challenges the Taliban to surrender Osama, as if they ever would...he gives them 30 days...30 fucking days...result? Bin Laden gone, Mullah Omar gone, Al Zawahiri gone! Shit, I would have leveled Kabul that night.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And how would you have justified that?

I'm not sure I would have "levelled" Kabul, but certainly there would have been immediate retaliation. And there was no need to "justify" that retaliation to anyone - the world was actually on our side at that point, and fully expected us to retaliate, and the Taliban, if not directly responsible, were known to be giving safe haven and safe passage to Bin Laden and crew.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 4:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
a) He wasted potentially valuable minutes before leaving the kids. Maybe those minutes were needed for command & control. Maybe there were going to be more hijacked planes being used as missiles, maybe there were going to be coordinated bombings across America. Commander in Chief needs to be on the horn to his military & civilian subordinates to prepare for invasion, or plan a defense against further attacks.

That’s certainly the movie image of a president that sticks in most people’s minds, but the reality is that things were very confused in those first few minutes. Leaders were scattered. There was serious communications problems at every end. And as much as we perhaps don’t like to believe it, there was very little the president, or any of the leaders, could have done at that point. We were operating on emergency management routines. Local emergency personnel sprung into action and operated completely independent of any command and control, which is precisely what it was designed to do. And precisely how we managed to get through that with so few casualties. If you start depending on impossible image of a single person to solve the problems, things are going to fall apart quick.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
b) Bin Laden Family....I don't know...you say with authority something else.

Don’t take my word for it. Look it up. It never happened. I don’t know how that story got started, but it’s not true.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
c) An act of war is an act of war...3,000 dead American civilians is justification to strike back.

It was a covert act of war. Although I agree with you that Afghanistan was that responsible national party behind that act of war, they weren't going to openly admit it, so we had to force their hand for diplomatic reasons. I don't have a lot of real complaints with how Afghanistan was handled.

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 4:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
The operative word in that statement being "could". He COULD do that; he simply chose not to.

According to you. I don’t know whether he did or not, but I assume he did.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Ahhhh - once again, all those news sources are simply making that up. Time, Newsweek, CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the Pentagon, the White House...

This has been reported on more than a few times. No Administration source has denied it, that I've ever seen. It's been reported as fact, and never disputed or disproved. So you're saying that there was no flight allowed out of the US in the days immediately following 9/11?

It’s been disputed and proven wrong on numerous occasions. At this point, only the true conspiracy nuts believe this.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'm not sure I would have "levelled" Kabul, but certainly there would have been immediate retaliation. And there was no need to "justify" that retaliation to anyone - the world was actually on our side at that point, and fully expected us to retaliate, and the Taliban, if not directly responsible, were known to be giving safe haven and safe passage to Bin Laden and crew.

You can’t even bring yourself to give the president the benefit of the doubt when all you have to go on is tv sensationalism - do you expect me to believe you wouldn’t be sitting here right now accusing the US of imperialism for retaliating against Afghanistan without justification?

Excuse me while I wipe the tears from my eyes ...

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 4:57 AM

Quote:

You can’t even bring yourself to give the president the benefit of the doubt when all you have to go on is tv sensationalism - do you expect me to believe you wouldn’t be sitting here right now accusing the US of imperialism for retaliating against Afghanistan without justification?

So is this your latest talking point from Party Central, or what? Anytime someone brings up a point, just accuse them of being "part of the tv generation" - somehow implying that you're NOT of the TV generation - all the while conveniently forgetting that YOU'RE POSTING ON A BOARD ABOUT A FUCKING TV SHOW, YOU STUPID FUCK!!

Am I of the TV generation? Yes, certainly. So are you. So is everybody in the US who is under the age of 60. I know you think you're so above it all, and would never stoop to having your views influenced by things you've seen on TV, right? Or should I say, "Wright?" Remember him? Jeremiah Wright? A pastor who's preached over 275,000 minutes over the past 35 years, but whose entire existence and outlood have been painted as "un-American" because of 20 seconds worth of soundbites on... (wait for it)... TEE-VEE!!!

As for what I would or wouldn't be doing had the President acted a bit more like a leader... we'll never know, because he never did. The only time he's ever been a leader was when he was a cheerleader in prep school. A male cheerleader is your idol and hero, the man you fantasize about in the Wonder Woman outfit. Jesus Herbert bald-headed fucking Christ on a biscuit...

You and your addle-pated kind seem to believe that all wars are inherently good, and that we're always on the good side of the good war. Others here seem to hold that all wars are bad and unnecessary, and that we're always on the wrong side in those wars. I hold a more realistic view: all wars ARE bad (or, "War is Hell", as the man said), but SOME wars are justified and even necessary. Unlike you, I can see the difference between "a just war" and "just a war". Afghanistan was a just war, at least in the beginning (before BushCo took its eye off the ball and got its collective head mindfucked by Iraq). As such, I wouldn't have *liked* the idea of carpet-bombing the Taliban back into the Stone Age (or *forward* into the Stone Age, as may be more accurate), but I could have at least understood the rationale behind such thinking. And it would have sent a MUCH clearer message to those who would do us harm: Fuck with us, and this is the result. Death to you and yours, and those that harbor them.

Bush under-reacted when it came to Bin Laden and Afghanistan, and he over-reacted when it came to Saddam. Only one of them attacked us, and vowed to continue doing so. You see the difference there, Punky Brewster?

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 5:08 AM

PIRATECAT

TP, the Super Mosque is a huge problem, that gets built it will be a shrine for the muslims to lay claim to Ole England. Its time to export them while you can. Like in NYC its some time of land deal through the city goverment that's a scam. In the my country Detroit is the city that is lost. The politicians are not patriots whoever keeps the slime in power is who they cater too. Im just saying they tear down symbols of other faiths and put theirs up to stake their claim. I don't think America should bail out England a third time. But if you need a room I got a trailor out back.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 5:47 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
That’s certainly the movie image of a president that sticks in most people’s minds, but the reality is that things were very confused in those first few minutes. Leaders were scattered. There was serious communications problems at every end. And as much as we perhaps don’t like to believe it, there was very little the president, or any of the leaders, could have done at that point.

Maybe there was nothing he could have done. Guess we'll never know, since he didn't even try.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 6:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
YOU'RE POSTING ON A BOARD ABOUT A FUCKING TV SHOW, YOU STUPID FUCK!!

You didn't write that quote to me, so I may be over-stepping my bounds here...but...jeeeez, what's with the personal attack against Finn? I've only been very hard on Bush lately because I was a strong defender of him for many years and I owe this to the world. I suppose I was a "stupid fuck" too during those years. I don't post here too much anymore because of personal attacks like you wrote...what does it accomplish? Is your cursing supposed to win an argument for you? People here have called me the same and worse. As much as I can choose to ignore it, honestly it always bothers me a bit. If we all have nothing in common, at least we have our love of Firefly in common. No one should curse out anybody here...there's enough real villians and idiots out there that we don't have to sink to that here. Thanks!

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 6:56 AM

Hmmmm... Let's see... I've been called, by Finn, by "Hero" (talk about a misnomer), by AwwCrapper, and others on this board, all of the following:

Un-American
Traitor
Commie
Stupid
Asinine
Dumb
Coward
Unpatriotic
America-hater
Terrorist
Terrorist-lover
Muslim

... and your problem is... what, again?

I'm merely pointing out to Finn that speaking down to people as if they're stupid (and he IS speaking down to all of us, make no mistake) because they watch TV - ON A WEBSITE DEDICATED TO A TEE-VEE SHOW - is a pretty fucking stupid thing to do. Especially coming from someone who considers himself so "above it all", and who could NEEEEEVVVVVVEERRRRR be fooled by anything the news said, or Bill Orally said, or Rush Limbaugh, or William Kristol, or Karl Rove, or Donald Rumsfeld, or Dick Cheney, or George Bush.

No, WE'RE the ones who are being fooled, not he...

80 percent of Americans now think the country is on the wrong path, and nearly that many think Bush is doing a poor job - yet Finn et al would have you believe that that's only because they've been deluded by the vast left-wing media conspiracy. But of course, that same left-wing media has utterly ignored Reverend Hagee's remarks (time and again he's said it) that New Orleans got what it deserved in Katrina, and Pat Robertson's and Jerry Falwell's remarks that America got what it deserved on September 11. Yup, sounds like a huge leftist bias to me; they couldn't pay two seconds worth of attention to either of these stories, because they were too busy focusing on Jeremiah Wright (who, for the record, I consider to be as big an idiot as the other two "men of god" listed above).

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 7:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Hmmmm... Let's see... I've been called, by Finn, by "Hero" (talk about a misnomer), by AwwCrapper, and others on this board, all of the following:

Un-American
Traitor
Commie
Stupid
Asinine
Dumb
Coward
Unpatriotic
America-hater
Terrorist
Terrorist-lover
Muslim

... and your problem is... what, again?

I'm merely pointing out to Finn that speaking down to people as if they're stupid (and he IS speaking down to all of us, make no mistake) because they watch TV - ON A WEBSITE DEDICATED TO A TEE-VEE SHOW - is a pretty fucking stupid thing to do. Especially coming from someone who considers himself so "above it all", and who could NEEEEEVVVVVVEERRRRR be fooled by anything the news said, or Bill Orally said, or Rush Limbaugh, or William Kristol, or Karl Rove, or Donald Rumsfeld, or Dick Cheney, or George Bush.

No, WE'RE the ones who are being fooled, not he...

80 percent of Americans now think the country is on the wrong path, and nearly that many think Bush is doing a poor job - yet Finn et al would have you believe that that's only because they've been deluded by the vast left-wing media conspiracy. But of course, that same left-wing media has utterly ignored Reverend Hagee's remarks (time and again he's said it) that New Orleans got what it deserved in Katrina, and Pat Robertson's and Jerry Falwell's remarks that America got what it deserved on September 11. Yup, sounds like a huge leftist bias to me; they couldn't pay two seconds worth of attention to either of these stories, because they were too busy focusing on Jeremiah Wright (who, for the record, I consider to be as big an idiot as the other two "men of god" listed above).

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

Can't and won't disagree with anything you wrote in defense of your language against others who've done the same to you. I'm no saint, I've lost it a time or two myself. But I say never again....this board should not sink to the sewer like the right and left wing hate websites out there. If someone attacks you instead of your message, then their position is weak and they lose. You win by taking the high ground always. It's a big challenge for us, but it's worth it.

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 8:04 AM

Quote:
Can't and won't disagree with anything you wrote in defense of your language against others who've done the same to you. I'm no saint, I've lost it a time or two myself.

Well, thanks for the vote of confidence, as it were... ;)

What I tire of is being attacked, and then when I lash out in kind, being told, "Hey, hey, hey - let's all be nice... we don't need to be mean... we can take the higher ground and turn the other cheek..." And I'm tired of having my love of my country attacked and questioned simply because I don't believe in the agenda and mission statements of the current regime. I'm tired of turning the other cheek, only to have it bloodied and bruised, again and again. If anyone wants to attack my patriotism or my faith in the United States Constitution, then I absolutely reserve the right to question their intelligence, and I'll use their own mangled words to support my position.

Turning the other cheek is what cost Al Gore and John Kerry the last two elections - and might have cost John McCain the 2000 nomination. When they were being hammered with charges that were utter and complete bullshit, they simply shrugged, chuckled, and said, "Oh, ha-ha... the American people are smarter than that..."

Here's a little note to the two parties:

Attention Democrats: Americans aren't quite as smart as you think they are.

Attention Republicans: Americans aren't quite as dumb as YOU think they are.

Democrats seem to think Americans won't fall for baseless shenanigans, but they do, time and again; Republicans, on the other hand, seem to think we'll fall for ANYTHING, just as long as it's wrapped in a flag and given a catchy, jingoistic name.

If there's one thing I learned from Kerry's campaign, it's that you don't let a news cycle go by without refuting these bullshit charges and rumors, in the strongest possible terms. What I'd have *liked* to have seen would be Kerry standing up in front of the Swift-Boat ad, saying, "These are lies, and the lying liars that are spreading these lies are lying their lying asses off."

But he decided to take the moral high ground and "win" that argument...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 8:07 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM

so, maybe we could use somebody like the Batman....

is Bob Kane still alive..?

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 8:08 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Kwicko,
Methinks you need to ressurect your previous sig.
Sweeping generalizations are always wrong.

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 8:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
What I'd have *liked* to have seen would be Kerry standing up in front of the Swift-Boat ad, saying, "These are lies, and the lying liars that are spreading these lies are lying their lying asses off."

But he decided to take the moral high ground and "win" that argument...

I thought the Swift Boat ads were insulting & embarrassing, but I wonder to what degree they actually swayed anybody in their vote. But because of the viscious nauture of those ads, I expect to see even more viscious ones thrown at both Obama & McCain this year. Anyone who criticizes Obama will be called a racist, and anyone criticizing McCain will be called a traitor. It's gonna be ugly and bloody and un-relenting.

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 9:26 AM

Quote:
Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kwicko:
My opposition to the Bush regime comes from the knowledge that he is simply not a bright person. He lacks intelligence (in more ways than one, as evidenced on 9/11 and after), he lacks curiosity, he lacks reasoning skills; in short, he's certainly not one of his father's "thousand points of light". In that analogy, he's the dim bulb.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This isn’t “knowledge.” There’s no way you could know this. This is more fiddling on the roof.

Well, in the sense of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, you're right - there's no way any of us can "know" anything at all.

How do I "know" Bush ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer? Well, when you tell someone three hundred and forty-seven times in a row how to do something, and they STILL insist on doing it wrong, you start to paint a mental picture of a drooling moron who only manages to breathe on his own because he still has a semi-functioning brain stem.

All right, George - Say the word "Nuclear" for me...

I rest my case. Language > Bush

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 9:30 AM

Quote:
I thought the Swift Boat ads were insulting & embarrassing, but I wonder to what degree they actually swayed anybody in their vote. But because of the viscious nauture of those ads, I expect to see even more viscious ones thrown at both Obama & McCain this year. Anyone who criticizes Obama will be called a racist, and anyone criticizing McCain will be called a traitor. It's gonna be ugly and bloody and unrelenting.

And don't forget McCain's alleged illegitimate black baby from South Carolina. I'm sure every Republican will distance themselves from that particularly vicious rumor - but probably not from Karl Rove, who was in charge of Bush's Department of Dirty Tricks during that campaign.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 10:39 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'm tired of having my love of my country attacked and questioned simply because I don't believe in the agenda and mission statements of the current regime.

I'm right there with ya, K.

Chrisisall

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 11:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'm tired of having my love of my country attacked and questioned simply because I don't believe in the agenda and mission statements of the current regime.

Oh god, you are such a terrorist!

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 11:38 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM

i'm a little tired of having to 'love' a country simply because i was born and continue to live there...

patriotism is highly overrated....

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 11:40 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And I'm tired of having my love of my country attacked and questioned simply because I don't believe in the agenda and mission statements of the current regime.

And I'm sure there are those tired of having their love of their country attacked and questioned simply because they might believe in the agenda and mission statements of the current regime.

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 12:05 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

And I'm sure there are those tired of having their love of their country attacked and questioned simply because they might believe in the agenda and mission statements of the current regime.

And...the imbecilic post-of-the-day Award goes to...
BDN!!!!

Chrisisall

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Thursday, May 15, 2008 12:05 PM