No shit, Sherlock. by rue

Keep the Shiny side up

"Committee Vice Chairman Christopher "Kit" Bond (R-Mo.) noted that key Democrats--including several who ran for the presidential nomination this year--also made public statements during the same period portraying Iraq's weapons as a threat to the United States.

The new report is a long-awaited final chapter in a series of Senate reports on the intelligence failures in the run-up to the Iraq war. The first in the series of reports, in July 2004, focused on flaws in intelligence-gathering and analysis but put off the politically explosive question of whether Bush administration officials deliberately distorted or misused the information they were given. The final report was delayed as Republican and Democrat committees members clashed repeatedly over what the report should say and, indeed, if such a report was still necessary.

The earlier Senate report, released when Republicans controlled the chamber, concluded unanimously that U.S. intelligence agencies had botched the task of assessing Iraq's WMD capability. It said key intelligence reports made unwarranted assumptions and overstated what was then known about Saddam Hussein's weapons programs. It faulted the CIA and other agencies for failing to cultivate reliable informants and for basing key assessments on extrapolation and inference."

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 9:54 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Quote:
... key Democrats--including several who ran for the presidential nomination this year--also made public statements during the same period portraying Iraq's weapons as a threat to the United States.

Congressmen based their decisions on the NIE they were given, which was fudged - by the administration - in the way described.
The caveats - for example the DOE analysis that aluminum tubes were useless for centrifuges, disagreements - for example the State Department's assessment the uranium document was a forgery, the uncertainties - for example the CIA's acknowledgement that while they had no proof Hussein did NOT have WMD they also had no proof he DID - were either put in a addendum that wasn't attached (the DOE findings) or deleted all together (CIA's).
This was a pattern time after time after time.
I found about those through careful listening to the news. Often there was only one report - broadcast on the radio, usually in the morning - where these items could be found.
But Congressmen in their official duties depended on the official report. Which was - as is being pointed out at long last - a product of a dishonest administration who took good work done by analysts and threw it away in order TO LIE.

Quote:
The final report was delayed as Republican and Democrat committees members clashed repeatedly over what the report should say and, indeed, if such a report was still necessary.

The report was slated to be done in two parts - the second half to take place AFTER the 2004 elections. Let me say that again, with emphasis - THE REPORT WAS SLATED TO BE DONE IN TWO PARTS. It was put off for purely political reasons. And now the repubiccans are crying foul for political reason b/c the task came due. WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP. Your lovely repubiccans are putting their political agenda ahead of national security - AGAIN. And you're standing by them. Why am I not surprised ?

Quote:
... concluded unanimously that U.S. intelligence agencies had botched the task of assessing Iraq's WMD capability ...

What the report actually said - ahem - I've read it, have you ? - in sum - the rush job done by the CIA under pressure from the administration to put together the NIE gave insufficient space and attention to the caveats, disagreements and uncertainties noted by the many intelligence agencies. The information was there - the political process of putting the report together was faulty.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 10:02 AM

See, WE'VE known this for some time, and SOME will refuse to believe the truth even now; SOME will die believing the Lie (tm). Yeah, Dems effed up too, but the real s**t starts from the top.

So there Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 10:42 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
...the Senate intelligence committee said today in a long-awaited report.

That was my favorite part. "Long-awaited". Ummmmm.... yeah. Too bad it came 5.5 years too late to save thousands of American soldiers...

:(

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 11:18 AM

America loves a winner!

" ....according to the report approved by the committee's Democratic leaders and a handful of Republicans."

Nothing, and let me stress this point, NOTHING but pure, unadulterated and absolute arrogant politics at work here.

Complete and utter bullshit.

The Dems knew as much, if not more and knew even before Bush was in office. This is what I hate about politics. It leads parties , like the Democrats, to putting party politics above love for country.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 11:23 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
See, WE'VE known this for some time, and SOME will refuse to believe the truth even now; SOME will die believing the Lie (tm). Yeah, Dems effed up too, but the real s**t starts from the top.

So there Chrisisall

There's no TRUTH here, as YOU see it. It's nothing but the far Left wingers, feeling their oats, and trying to frame their opponents in a negative light.

Kudos to Bush for doing the right thing, when it was popular, and not even when it's not. A true leader.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 11:30 AM

Quote:
The Dems knew as much, if not more and knew even before Bush was in office. This is what I hate about politics. It leads parties , like the Democrats, to putting party politics above love for country.

Yah, the Republicans would NEVER put party politics above love for country... [sarcasm]

Quote:
It's nothing but the far Left wingers, feeling their oats, and trying to frame their opponents in a negative light.

Kudos to Bush... A true leader.

As you so often say, "Prove it."

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 11:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
There's no TRUTH here, moron. It's nothing but the far Left wingers, feeling their oats, and trying to frame their opponents in a negative light.

Hey- why is it when I say Bush is a idiot, your feathers get all ruffled, but not when I say Clinton was also?
Partisan much?
Reality check, AU, there IS no "good" party, pal, money sees to that.
And I ain't a maroon!

Quote:

Kudos to Bush for doing the right thing, when it was popular, and not even when it's not. A true leader.

*choke, cough...*

Soda-in-the-nose Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 11:33 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Nothing, and let me stress this point, NOTHING but pure, unadulterated and absolute arrogant politics at work here.

Yeah, kinda like the Republicans delaying this par (Part 2) of the report while they were a majority. Or forcing the Dems who wanted to hold a discussion on the topic into a small basement room, and then turning off the lights. Or refusing to testify under oath. Or refusing to testify at all.

This is very much the pot calling the kettle black, Rap. Sure this is politics. It's grandstanding, and it's too bad the Dems didn't have more backbone earlier in the process. But it's less harmful than what the Republicans have done. It's too bad you can't see "your side" for the slippery politicos that they really are.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 1:16 PM

A Dem lets folk get killed while lining their pockets; a Rep GETS folk killed while lining their FRIEND'S pockets.

But, that's a generalization. It's the individual person that makes the difference.

Non-partisan Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 1:51 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

I found about those through careful listening to the news. Often there was only one report - broadcast on the radio, usually in the morning - where these items could be found.
But Congressmen in their official duties depended on the official report.

If you could find this stuff, Congresspersons and their staffs should have been able to as well. Either the majority were remarkably naive and easily led, or they were more interested in going along with the 'war on terror' to gain votes. Bush couldn't have gone into Iraq without the support of Congress, and they gave it to him.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 1:53 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
What the report actually said - ahem - I've read it, have you ? - in sum - the rush job done by the CIA under pressure from the administration to put together the NIE gave insufficient space and attention to the caveats, disagreements and uncertainties noted by the many intelligence agencies. The information was there - the political process of putting the report together was faulty.

You wanna argue that, argue with the Post. I just quoted from the article you linked.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 2:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Bush couldn't have gone into Iraq without the support of Congress, and they gave it to him.

[AU-talk]
Geezer, that's flat out untrue- it's just partisan lies from your righty mentality, you moron. Prove it! You can't, because it's lies, lies, lies! Congress is true leadership, and they wouldn't just do that. The Democrats were fooled, coerced & forced to do what they did. You have no respect for the visionaries of our country, the true heroes of our Democracy!
[/AU-talk]

See? I can deny reality with the best of 'em!

isall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 2:26 PM

America loves a winner!

( For some reason, the fff.net is having difficulties loading pages for me ...grrrr )

2nd time I'm attempting to post this, or something close to it.

Bush went to war knowing what every other Senator and Congressman knew , and a few knew even more. That Saddam, after 10+ yrs of failing to abide by UN rules, wasn't going to give in. He simply wasn't. AThe intel Bush had, strongly suggested that Iraq had or would restart its WMD program as soon as the UN backed off. And after 9/11 , even if some the intel was ambiguous, NOT acting would have been damn near criminal. Especially when you have the head of your CIA ( a Clinton hold over, why he was still there, we may NEVER know ) is telling you that it's a SLAM DUNK on Iraq and WMD. As President, you HAVE to act.

And now we know it was the U.N., playing footsies under the table by making the Food for Oil program a complete ruse, all the while the U.S.A. was being accused of the deaths of all those malnourished Iraqi children, who weren't getting the food/ medicine they needed. The FACTS were, it wasn't the USA's fault,but Saddam and the U.N's!

We also know that 'containment' was a joke, as Saddam planned to reinvigorate his programs after the U.N. left him alone, so it was all just a waiting game, a game the U.S. wasn't going to allow Saddam to win. And we didn't.

I'm sorry, but that's exactly how it is, and I'm fracking damn tired of having to repeat myself ,over and over again until I'm blue in the face , but it seems some of you simply don't WANT to hear the facts. ALL some of you care about is that Bush is evil for stealing the 2000 election, the one which he WON, by every god damn legal count known to mankind, and yet you STILL hold a childish grudge over events from 7 yrs ago.

Now, lets see if this damn page will DL this time.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 2:35 PM

America loves a winner!

The Dems are equally, if not MORE wrong guilty for this war, and they know it. They knew YEARS in advance that Saddam was bucking the cease fire agreements, the U.N. resolutions, and were content to play the game of containment. A game Saddam could have won, had we allowed it to endure.

Thankfully Bush didn't sit around and do nothing. He got approval form Congress , based on the best intel ANYONE had, and decided to act on what was known. Some gutless bureaucrats in the intel agencies then back tracked, saying that they DIDN'T know as much as they were saying they knew, all in a petty attempt to save their asses. We pay them billions of $$'s a year, and the best that some of them could do is say " Ummmm... we dunno. Maybe? " FUCK THAT! At least the HEAD of the CIA was more outright, stating it was a SLAM DUNK, and that's exactly what he told the President. When you head of intelligence tells you something that emphatic, you don't so casually dismiss it. It SHOULD means something.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 2:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
When you head of intelligence tells you something that emphatic, you don't so casually dismiss it. It SHOULD means something.

Too bad it didn't.

There's a lot of fact in what you say, AU, it's your interpretations I have problems with.
For the record, I will repeat something- when we roared into Afghanistan to blast the Taliban, I was like, "Maybe I was wrong about Bush...he's DOING something...!!!"

Then came the do-over in Iraq...

CIA

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 2:55 PM

Quote:
Bush...A true leader.

"I'm their leader. Which way did they go?"

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
( For some reason, the fff.net is having difficulties loading pages for me ...grrrr )

That ain't just you. It's doing it to us all.

Quote:

We also know that 'containment' was a joke, as Saddam planned to reinvigorate his programs after the U.N. left him alone, so it was all just a waiting game, a game the U.S. wasn't going to allow Saddam to win. And we didn't.

We don't "know" any such thing about containment or WHAT Saddam's plans were for after the UN left him alone. You're right about one thing - Saddam didn't win, and we didn't, either.

Quote:
ALL some of you care about is that Bush is evil for stealing the 2000 election, the one which he WON, by every god damn legal count known to mankind, and yet you STILL hold a childish grudge over events from 7 yrs ago.

That's not ALL we care about, but by the way, how many of those "god damn legal" counts were there? The Supreme Court stopped the LEGAL recount. Most - if not all - counts showed that Gore clearly won the popular vote.

And how long have you been holding a "childish grudge" over events from before that, when Bill Clinton was President? 15 years now?

One question: You seem to think that we should all just trust the President in all cases, because to question him or his actions is un-American. Will you be so trusting of President Obama? Will you be so sure to insist that he could never lie, because a President is just incapable of it?

Didn't think so. As usual, you'll put party politics over love for country... How very expected of you.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 2:56 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Geezer

"If you could find this stuff, Congresspersons and their staffs should have been able to as well."

Why oh why are you always such an ass-wipe ??

YOU'VE worked for government. YOU know that no one gets to act on news-stories, only official reports. And here you are, pretending like no such thing ever crossed your mind, just to have your stupid, partisan, and totally fallacious little snit fit.

No wonder people don't trust you - you've done this far too often, far too badly, and got caught far too many times. It's not even slick anymore. Just crude, stupid and dishonest.

***************************************************************
And BTW - anyone who thought Geezer might be a libertarian - take heed. THIS is what he really is - a partisan totally in tune with any and every force, spying and deception government wants to do. To you.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 3:06 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The Dems are equally, if not MORE wrong guilty for this war, and they know it. They knew YEARS in advance that Saddam was bucking the cease fire agreements, the U.N. resolutions, and were content to play the game of containment. A game Saddam could have won, had we allowed it to endure.

Now, see, this is where you lose me. The thing that you keep igonring, over and over again, is the UNMOVIC inspections. It's as if they never happened. I agree that without the inspections it would have been difficult to know what Saddam was up to, or not, as the case may be. But the inspections were generating new and better information and they were getting directives from the CIA based in satellite information.

Quote:
Thankfully Bush didn't sit around and do nothing. He got approval form Congress , based on the best intel ANYONE had

Again I reference the UNMOVIC inspections which were generating current information... as opposed to "intel" from ten years ago.

Quote:
and decided to act on what was known. Some gutless bureaucrats in the intel agencies then back tracked, saying that they DIDN'T know as much as they were saying they knew, all in a petty attempt to save their asses.

Only someone completely unfamilair with what actually happened would say that. Cheney had formed a Special Operations team whose SOLE PURPOSE was to bypass the "vetting" of Iraqi intel by the REAL intelligence agnecies. That's when the terms "stovepiping" (chanelling supporting information directly to the highest levels) and "cherry picking" (being very selective about info) came into wide use.

Quote:
We pay them billions of $$'s a year, and the best that some of them could do is say " Ummmm... we dunno. Maybe? "

That's not what they said.

Quote:
FUCK THAT! At least the HEAD of the CIA was more outright, stating it was a SLAM DUNK, and that's exactly what he told the President.

Umm... yes, the Head of the CIA whom Bush appointed. So Bush's handpicked appointee told Bush exactly what he wanted to hear? Who'da thunk???

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 3:25 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

Quote:
FUCK THAT! At least the HEAD of the CIA was more outright, stating it was a SLAM DUNK, and that's exactly what he told the President.
Umm... yes, the Head of the CIA whom Bush appointed. So Bush's handpicked appointee told Bush exactly what he wanted to hear? Who'da thunk???

You might want to check your facts here. Tenet was appointed by your hero Bill Clinton.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 3:39 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

You might want to do a little fact checking yourself. Tenet was kept on by baby Bush, defying normal procedure during transitions, after a tete-a-tete between the two of them. He was in effect re-appointed by Bush, and had to hew closely to what was wanted of him to survive the dem / rep divide between himself and the Bush administration.

"While the Director of Central Intelligence has typically been replaced by an incoming administration ever since Jimmy Carter replaced DCI George H. W. Bush, Tenet served through the end of the Clinton administration and well into the term of George W. Bush."

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 3:56 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
We don't "know" any such thing about containment or WHAT Saddam's plans were for after the UN left him alone. You're right about one thing - Saddam didn't win, and we didn't, either.

We'd never have known anything until we toppled Saddam's regime. That's when we found out what we know today.

Quote:
Most - if not all - counts showed that Gore clearly won the popular vote.

Gore won the popular vote of the nation, that's never been in dispute. The catch is, the " popular vote" has never been the deciding factor in how the President is elected. Still, what Gore DIDN'T win was Florida. 2 news papers went in and recounted every ballot cast in the 2000 election. Bush won.

Quote:

And how long have you been holding a "childish grudge" over events from before that, when Bill Clinton was President? 15 years now?

Bill did what he did. There's no grudge found on my part. Dunno why you even bring him into this discussion.

Quote:
One question: You seem to think that we should all just trust the President in all cases, because to question him or his actions is un-American. Will you be so trusting of President Obama? Will you be so sure to insist that he could never lie, because a President is just incapable of it?

Didn't think so. As usual, you'll put party politics over love for country... How very expected of you.

If you're reading that I suggest we blindly trust the President, then you're reading words that I'm not posting. Point of fact, the case for the war in Iraq was made, in large part, even BEFORE Bush was elected. How ? It was made by virtually every Democrat on the Hill, including the one in the White House. The VERY WORDS they used to describe Saddam are EXACTLY what Bush said, and yet he gets accused of fixing intel or " lying " . Complete and utter bullshit, sorry.

I never put party in front of country. Ever. I'll speak out against Bush for his immigration policy, because I think the nation is more important than his love for Federal bureaucracy. I'm furious at him and McCain for sounding exactly like Democrats when it comes to such issues, as immigration and 'global warming'. I think nearly all the DEMS and GOPers are simply playing big $$ politics on these issues, and are subverting national interest.

So much for your "childish" attempt to paint me that which I'm not.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 4:06 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Quote:
We'd never have known anything until we toppled Saddam's regime. That's when we found out what we know today.

Aside from the UN inspectors under Blix who were within weeks of correctly verifying Iraq to be WMD-free:

ARE YOU NOW SAYING THERE WERE NO WND ??

Because if you are, that would be a breakthrough in your re-integration with reality.

***************************************************************
And after that, we can work on your belief in the "roaring economy".

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 4:35 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Quote:
We'd never have known anything until we toppled Saddam's regime. That's when we found out what we know today.
Aside from the UN inspectors under Blix who were within weeks of correctly verifying Iraq to be WMD-free:

ARE YOU NOW SAYING THERE WERE NO WND ??

Because if you are, that would be a breakthrough in your re-integration with reality.

***************************************************************
And after that, we can work on your belief in the "roaring economy".

Once again, you have it wrong. The U.N. wasn't there to "verify" Iraq to be WMD free. It was there to address serious issues as to what Iraq did w/ WMD it ADMITTED TO HAVING, but then claimed it disposed of, "sometime " during the past 10 yrs. Only a dupe of the highest magnitude would believe that , after 10+ yrs of playing "Where's the WMD ? " with Saddam , that we were with in " weeks " of finally packing up and going home. The U.N. wanted to know what was destroyed, how, when, where and by what methods. Iraq was reluctant to tell us much in the way of details, which is why the shell game they played w/ the Inspectors not only took so long but also eventually cost Saddam his head.

As for the economy, you'll note that when I ORIGINALLY made that statement, the economy had been doing very well for quite some time. Leave it to you to bring out and old point to try to assign it to different times. Same goes for the new housing industry. There WAS a boom, then it leveled off and then the bubble burst. Happens w/ everything, it's a cycle. You can't hold me accountable for comments made in the midst of an upswing, then perpetually hold me to that statement for ALL times. And btw, the reports out of the US economy being in a recession are premature, if you've been paying attention.

Sales are up. , more than expected and so is growth.

But keep looking for those 2 quarters of negative growth. We're sure to have that should Obama win the election.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 4:45 PM

America loves a winner!

Damn lag.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 5:16 PM

America loves a winner!

Double damn lag

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 5:38 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

So, are you NOW saying there were no WNDs ? Yes or no. It's that simple.

No, the economy hadn't been doing well, let alone very well. That's what makes it so funny. That's why it's such a great gag.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 6:19 PM

Quote:
I'm furious at him and McCain for sounding exactly like Democrats when it comes to such issues, as immigration and 'global warming'. I think nearly all the DEMS and GOPers are simply playing big $$ politics on these issues, and are subverting national interest.

So are you NOW saying that Bush lied? You've always maintained that he "never lied" (your words, quoted exactly as you typed them). Now Bush says that Global Warming is real and that it is being caused by man. So was he lying then, or is he lying now?

Also, if Obama inherits an economy that's deep in the shitter, you view such a recession as HIS fault, huh? Even though you're quick to point out that the one Bush had was in no way his doing, but the result of an economy already on the downswing.

Good to know you're not putting party ahead of country...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 6:30 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Tenet was appointed by your hero Bill Clinton.

And Re-appointed by Bush. I'd think you'd know that.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 6:52 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Once again, you have it wrong. The U.N. wasn't there to "verify" Iraq to be WMD free. It was there to address serious issues as to what Iraq did w/ WMD it ADMITTED TO HAVING, but then claimed it disposed of, "sometime " during the past 10 yrs. Only a dupe of the highest magnitude would believe that , after 10+ yrs of playing "Where's the WMD ? " with Saddam , that we were with in " weeks " of finally packing up and going home. The U.N. wanted to know what was destroyed, how, when, where and by what methods. which is why the shell game they played w/ the Inspectors not only took so long but also eventually cost Saddam his head.

Well, UNMOVIC claimed to be within weeks of concluding their inspection. So yes, they really were within weeks. AFA Iraq not showing how the WMD were destroyed... Our own army destroyed a lot of those WMD after the Gulf War, the Iraq Army had been disasterously routed and you're thinking... paperwork? There was stuff out there that even Saddam didn't know about, which is why so many old shells were found in bunkers here and there... as you well know. So, instead of drawing the logical conclusion that WMD were destroyed willy-nilly by both sides of the gulf war, or lost, you figure that all of this was deliberate on Saddam's part. Rap, all the pieces of the puzzle are sitting right in front of you, self-explanatory, and then you insist on putting them together into a completely alien picture that doesn't even make any sense.

But yeah- at least you're finally coming around to the idea that there really were no WMD.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 7:11 PM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Geezer

"If you could find this stuff, Congresspersons and their staffs should have been able to as well."

Why oh why are you always such an ass-wipe ?? ...

No wonder people don't trust you

Speak for yourself rue. Is Geezer partisan? ayup. And I disagree with him at least half the time, but his posts are far more reasonable and 'trust' worthy than your frantic mud slinging.

What pisses you off is that he's right. The democrats had all the power they needed to put a halt to the war march (and the Patriot Act, and Guantanamo, and Homeland Insecurity, etc, etc, etc,,,), but they were too chickenshit to stand up for anything beyond their short-sighted political gain. I suspect, sadly, that we'll have the next four years to see just what a much of spineless hypocrites they really are.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 7:17 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Oh SergeantX

You're so cute when you're talking out of your ass.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 7:23 PM

SERGEANTX

Its just disappointing to see you slipping into a left-wing parody of auraptor. You can do better.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 11:48 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Tenet was appointed by your hero Bill Clinton.
And Re-appointed by Bush. I'd think you'd know that.

---------------------------------

I think it's quite obvious that I knew Tenet was reappointed by Bush. You're the one that did'nt know it tell you looked it up. You were caught making an ass out of yourself, why don't you just admit it. Your exact quote was "Bush's hand picked appointee".

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 5, 2008 11:50 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
You might want to do a little fact checking yourself. Tenet was kept on by baby Bush, defying normal procedure during transitions, after a tete-a-tete between the two of them. He was in effect re-appointed by Bush, and had to hew closely to what was wanted of him to survive the dem / rep divide between himself and the Bush administration.

"While the Director of Central Intelligence has typically been replaced by an incoming administration ever since Jimmy Carter replaced DCI George H. W. Bush, Tenet served through the end of the Clinton administration and well into the term of George W. Bush."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 6, 2008 1:40 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
You might want to do a little fact checking yourself. Tenet was kept on by baby Bush, defying normal procedure during transitions, after a tete-a-tete between the two of them. He was in effect re-appointed by Bush, and had to hew closely to what was wanted of him to survive the dem / rep divide between himself and the Bush administration.

"While the Director of Central Intelligence has typically been replaced by an incoming administration ever since Jimmy Carter replaced DCI George H. W. Bush, Tenet served through the end of the Clinton administration and well into the term of George W. Bush."

Great post!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 6, 2008 2:02 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So, are you NOW saying there were no WNDs ? Yes or no. It's that simple.

No, the economy hadn't been doing well, let alone very well. That's what makes it so funny. That's why it's such a great gag.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

Yes, there were WMD , and yes, the economy was doing very well, despite the fact that some areas, where manufacturing is concerned, were hurting. Economist were concerned that the economy might be growing TOO fast, but thankfully that wasn't the case, and most were pleased w/ how it was performing, as is. Them's the facts.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 6, 2008 9:06 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

SergeantX

I can guarantee that you, Geezer, Rap, Kirkules and Jong never read the first half of the report, that you never will, and that you never will read the second half either.

Given that, how DO you know I'm being a left-wing parody of Rap ? That I'm not simply reporting what was in there ? The answer is - you don't. So you and pretty much everyone else are just talking out of your asses - again - with petty, partisan ignorance. As usual.

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Its just disappointing to see you slipping into a left-wing parody of auraptor. You can do better.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 6, 2008 9:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Yes, there were WMD

As in, yes there was a flood...just, y'know, not any more.

Quote:
, and yes, the economy was doing very well,

As in, the patient has a tumour, but he seems to be doing very well....

Quote:
Them's the facts.

As in, I get a rash every time I swim at the YMCA pool, so I must be sensitive to H2O....

You are SUCH a biped, AU.

Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 6, 2008 9:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:

The democrats had all the power they needed to put a halt to the war march (and the Patriot Act, and Guantanamo, and Homeland Insecurity, etc, etc, etc,,,), but they were too chickenshit to stand up for anything beyond their short-sighted political gain.

Yep.

Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 6, 2008 9:47 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

dbl

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 6, 2008 9:47 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"The democrats had all the power they needed to put a halt to the war march (and the Patriot Act, and Guantanamo, and Homeland Insecurity, etc, etc, etc,,,) ..."

Except that they were in the minority. Strange how you forgot that, SergeantX. Or are you so desperate you'll post any lie to try and be right ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 6, 2008 9:52 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Geezer YOU'VE worked for government. YOU know that no one gets to act on news-stories, only official reports.

The Civil Service part of government does have to work to rules and statutes, mostly those imposed by Congress. Anything Civil Service does you can find a regulation or law to back it up.

The Congress, on the other hand, works from leaks, polls, input from lobbys and contributors, reports they have commissioned which are so finely parsed as to always provide the answer they want, orders from their party leadership, and - most of all - whatever they think will get them re-elected. The 'rules' of Congress are arcane and often unwritten.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 6, 2008 9:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

Except that they were in the minority. Strange how you forgot that, SergeantX.

But, didn't they have enough juice to derail the mess if they were truly up for a fight? Y'know, drag all that fascist s**t into the light & make Americans aware of the secret evil plans of the numbnuts?

?Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 6, 2008 12:15 PM

Quote:

Yes, there were WMD , and yes, the economy was doing very well...

Man, there's more smoke 'n' mirrors here than at a Criss Angel show! So Saddam managed to spirit away virtually ALL of his huge stockpile of WMD, and no one has any idea - or a scintilla of evidence - of where they went. And the economy SEEMED to be doing very well, propped up by MASSIVE debt-spending. Anyone can do that, for a short period of time. If I wanted to max out all my credit resources, I could be driving a new Ferrari and living in a penthouse - but it wouldn't last very long.

Smoke and mirrors, and nothing more. There's no substance behind it. In short, there's no "there" there...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 6, 2008 3:03 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Chris,isall

Sorry for the late reply - I was busy at work and the website was a little too slow. (I wonder if anyone could use a cash infusion for a new server or sumthin' ? Maybe if there is anyone lurking who knows, they could reply ... ... anyway ...)

I find blaming democrats for what Bush does disingenuous, stupid and maybe even crazy. How does it make sense under any criteria ? And that's what irks me about the many posts - somehow, no matter what Bush does, democrats are to blame.

What's up with that ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 6, 2008 3:45 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
What pisses you off is that he's right. The democrats had all the power they needed to put a halt to the war march (and the Patriot Act, and Guantanamo, and Homeland Insecurity, etc, etc, etc,,,), but they were too chickenshit to stand up for anything beyond their short-sighted political gain. I suspect, sadly, that we'll have the next four years to see just what a much of spineless hypocrites they really are.

No Sarge, they didn't. As you SHOULD know by now the majority party controls the committees, and the committees control what comes to the floor. So there was not Democratic Party sponsored bills that ever came up for discussion. Democrats really WERE given a basement room to discuss pre-war intel, and the lights mysteriously went out. There were no contending investigations, no disagreeable Congressional press releases.

It's arcane, it's stupid, but that's the way it is.

And, if it came to a vote, the Democrats were in the minority... again, something you seem to have forgotten. In the 2002 House of Representatives there were about 435 members of which about 209 (less than half, if you can't do the math) were Democrats.
http://www.thegreenpapers.com/G02/House107.phtml?v=v In the Senate, there were 48 Dems, and 51 Republicans and 1 Independent, plus Cheney the tie-breaker.

Slightly more than half of the Dems voted against Iraq and whole bunch of other shit. Yeah, I agree with you: I would have liked to see the votes more like 51-49, not 75-25. A lot of Dems voted their cowardice. But compared to the Rethugs who voted in a solid block for everything that Bush wanted... in which Ron Paul (and sometimes Olympia Dukakis) stand out like a shining beacon... the Dems were better.

If you want to blame anyone, blame the press. Dissenting voices... and there were many... simply weren't given any air time. Why is that, do you suppose? Could it be that your favorite segement of the world... the capitalists... had some sort of alliance with the Bush administration???

Quote:
But, didn't they have enough juice to derail the mess if they were truly up for a fight? Y'know, drag all that fascist s**t into the light & make Americans aware of the secret evil plans of the numbnuts?

No, they didn't. They got frozen out of the committees, the power of the supoena, the press... even their own building. If ALL of the Democrats had gotten together on the steps of the Capitol building and raised holy hell, I doubt it would have made a ripple in the media. I knew a lot of Congresspeople were vociferously against the war, but I had to hunt for their opinions online, and the average person... meh... they get their news from TV.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 7, 2008 3:46 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Yes, there were WMD , and yes, the economy was doing very well...

Man, there's more smoke 'n' mirrors here than at a Criss Angel show! So Saddam managed to spirit away virtually ALL of his huge stockpile of WMD, and no one has any idea - or a scintilla of evidence - of where they went. And the economy SEEMED to be doing very well, propped up by MASSIVE debt-spending. Anyone can do that, for a short period of time. If I wanted to max out all my credit resources, I could be driving a new Ferrari and living in a penthouse - but it wouldn't last very long.

Smoke and mirrors, and nothing more. There's no substance behind it. In short, there's no "there" there...

Mike

Huge stockpile? We're talking CHEMICAL weapons here, pal. The amount which could wipe out a small country could easily fit in the back of a small UPS truck. You're stuck w/ the mental image of "stockpiled warehouses ", as seen in Raiders of the Lost Ark , with crates among endless rows of crates. Sorry, the real world ain't like that.

And the economy WAS doing very well for several years, just not the roaring 20's style that most associate " good times " with. It was a Goldie locks economy, not too hot, not too cold. Just right. But conveniently, you and the Lefties have a short, hazy memory and view of the past, one which doesn't allow you to see things as they really were.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 7, 2008 4:26 AM