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Originally posted by SignyM:
Drug lies

www.pensitoreview.com/2008/05/28/mcclellan-first-noticed-bush-lies-in-
1999-cocaine-flap/

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Let's party like it's 1929.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Just keep tellin' yourself that...

Takin' Care of Business, Baby!

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Originally posted by citizen:
Weapons of Mass Destruction are in Iraq, except they aren't.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
There's really no discussion;

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if you support lies, torture & war profiteering, then you are in Congress with the Beast.

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You are evil by mis-interpreting reality, or by embracing greed by way of death.

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There's really no discussion

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Oh, well thats always been the liberal position. No discussion, no free speech, no 'agree to disagree'. Here I am, the evil conservative who thinks Bush is pretty good but willing to engage in spirited debate on any subject...and there you are warming up the ovens to dispose of those you consider less then human (aka anyone who thinks differently then you).

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Originally posted by Hero:

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Originally posted by piratenews:

Michael Reagan wants to shoot Pirate News.

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Then Michael Reagan is making good sense.

H

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Originally posted by Hero:
Here I am, the evil conservative who thinks Bush is pretty good

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I note for the record that the Democrats control Congress. I also note that Nancy Pelosi may be the devil. So your point is well taken.

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This statement makes no sense.

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...and there you are warming up the ovens to dispose of those you consider less then human (aka anyone who thinks differently then you).

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Again, what of the UNDECLARED stockpiles ?

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Originally posted by Khyron:
Heck, I'll humour you, AURaptor.

President Bush and Secretary Powell repeatedly claimed they had evidence that Iraq attempted to buy 500 tons of uranium oxide from Niger, which can be used to make fuel for nuclear reactors.

Were they lying or weren't they? You decide!

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This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

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Swing and a miss. They never " repeatedly " claimed they had such evidence, but all Bush did was refer to what the BRITISH were saying, per THEIR intelligence.

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Wrong Sig. All I'm concerned about is partisan zealots making claims about The President lying, but not being able to back up such wild, absurd and fictional claims.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Swing and a miss. They never " repeatedly " claimed they had such evidence, but all Bush did was refer to what the BRITISH were saying, per THEIR intelligence.

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So because the British intel was wrong - and it was pointed out REPEATEDLY to Bush that it was indeed wrong, by many sources in the US intel industry as well as others in intel agencies in other countries - you maintain that he didn't lie. He just said something that he knew was untrue, which is so completely different than lying...

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That has nothing to do with the run-up to war, but you have stated repeatedly that "Bush never lied". Now you seem to want to parse your words and amend your earlier statements. So I ask for clarification: Did Bush EVER lie, about anything?

Mike

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
The issue is the Iraqi war. That's all I talking about here in this thread.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Chrissy, if you could do me the favor of simply giving ONE lie Bush told that sent us to war w/ Iraq, I'd gladly say uncle.

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Chrissy, if you could do me the favor of simply giving ONE lie Bush told that sent us to war w/ Iraq, I'd gladly say uncle.

Just one, please.

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Well, you got one thing right. If Bush didn't know it was a lie, then in fact he did NOT lie! Genius!

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...but I do know ONE thing.... that he's WRONG. Being WRONG does not necessarily make one a liar, now does it ?

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The intel wasn't wrong. US sources only said that THEIR intel couldn't confirm it, meaning that they COULD NOT CONFIRM IT! He DID NOT say anything which he knew was untrue. The Brits , TO THIS DAY still maintain their intel was right.

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Public Statement of President George W. Bush:
"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."
Source: President Delivers "State of the Union", White House (1/28/2003).

Why This Statement is Misleading:
This statement was misleading because it suggested that Iraq sought uranium from Africa despite the fact that the CIA expressed doubts about the credibility of this claim in two memos to the White House, including one addressed to National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice. CIA Director George Tenet also warned against using the claim in a telephone call to Ms. Rice's deputy. In addition, the statement fails to mention that State Department intelligence officials also concluded that this claim was "highly dubious."

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Public Statement of President George W. Bush:
"He said he wouldn't have chemical weapons, he's got them."
Source: Remarks by the President at Arkansas Welcome, White House (11/4/2002).

Why This Statement is Misleading:
This statement was misleading because it professed certainty. According to CIA Director George Tenet, "it is important to underline the word estimate." In addition, the statement failed to acknowledge the Defense Intelligence Agency position that: "There is no reliable information on whether Iraq is producing and stockpiling chemical weapons or where Iraq has -- or will -- establish its chemical warfare agent production facilities."

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Public Statement of President George W. Bush:
"Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons."
Source: President Bush Outlines Iraqi Threat; Remarks by the President on Iraq, White House (10/7/2002).

Why This Statement is Misleading:
This statement was misleading because it suggested that Iraq sought aluminum tubes for use in its nuclear weapons program, failing to mention that the government’s most experienced technical experts at the U.S. Department of Energy concluded that the tubes were "poorly suited" for this purpose.

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Public Statement of President George W. Bush:
"If the Iraq regime is able to produce, buy, or steal an amount of highly enriched uranium a little larger than a single softball, it could have a nuclear weapon in less than one year."
Source: President Bush Outlines Iraqi Threat; Remarks by the President on Iraq, White House (10/7/2002).


Why This Statement is Misleading:
This statement was misleading because it failed to provide the context that the U.S. intelligence community believed that Iraq probably would not be able to make a nuclear weapon until near the end of the decade.

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Public Statement of President George W. Bush:
"Knowing these realities, America must not ignore the threat gathering against us. Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof - the smoking gun - that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud."
Source: President Bush Outlines Iraqi Threat; Remarks by the President on Iraq, White House (10/7/2002).

Why This Statement is Misleading:
This statement was misleading because it starkly evoked a threat of Iraq detonating a nuclear bomb when there was deep division in the intelligence community on the issue of whether Iraq was actively pursuing its nuclear program.

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Public Statement of President George W. Bush:
"In defiance of the United Nations, Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons."
Source: President: Iraqi Regime Danger to America is "Grave and Growing", White House (10/5/2002).

Why This Statement is Misleading:
This statement was misleading because it professed certainty. The statement failed to acknowledge the Defense Intelligence Agency position that: "There is no reliable information on whether Iraq is producing and stockpiling chemical weapons."

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Public Statement of National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice:
"At the time that the State of the Union address was prepared, there were also other sources that said that they were, the Iraqis were seeking yellow cake, uranium oxide from Africa."
Source: This Week with George Stephanopolous, ABC (6/8/2003).

Why This Statement is Misleading:
This statement was misleading because it suggested that Iraq sought uranium from Africa despite the fact that the CIA expressed doubts about the credibility of this claim in two memos to the White House, including one addressed to National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice. CIA Director George Tenet also warned against using the claim. In addition, the statement fails to mention that State Department intelligence officials also concluded that this claim was "highly dubious."

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Arming our own enemies in Iraq
Submitted by davidswanson on Fri, 2008-06-06 02:55.
Bush officials claim that Iran has supplied grenade launchers to Iraqi militants -- but the real source of the weapons is U.S. negligence.
By Gareth Porter, Salon

June 6, 2008 | In recent months, Gen. David Petraeus charged that Iran has supplied powerful rocket-propelled grenade launchers to Shiite militias in Iraq. But according to the U.S. government's own reports, there is no evidence to support that charge. In fact, the vast majority of RPGs in the hands of Shiite militants have come from either U.S.-purchased weapons intended for Iraq's new security forces, or from Saddam Hussein's old stockpiles, which the U.S. failed to secure when it took control of the country.

The Bush administration has long sought to create the impression that Iran has been playing a major military role in Iraq by supplying arms to Shiite militias, including the cleric Muqtada al-Sadr's powerful Mahdi army. But to date, U.S. military officials have offered scant or even dubious evidence of Iranian military involvement in Iraq -- and Petraeus' allegation about the RPGs is a clear-cut case of unsubstantiated charges.

Last October, and again in late December, Petraeus stated emphatically there was "absolutely no question" that Iran provided RPG-29s, a sophisticated anti-tank weapon, to Iraqi Shiite militiamen. He even called the RPG-29 an Iranian "signature weapon."

What Petraeus failed to mention, however, is that RPG-29s are manufactured by Russia, not Iran, and those that have shown up in Iraq apparently came from Syria. The Syrian government bought large numbers of RPG-29s from Russia in 1999 and 2000, many of which ended up being used by Hezbollah in the war against Israel in 2006, according to Israeli and Lebanese media reports. Even some U.S. military officials were quoted in the media in May 2006 as saying that they believed RPG-29s had been smuggled into Iraq from Syria.

Moreover, as Air Force Col. Scott Maw of the Multi-National Force Iraq (MNF-I) Strategic Communications Office told me in a telephone interview last week, "very few" RPG-29s have actually been found in Iraq. An examination of U.S. military press releases on weapons caches found in Shiite areas reveals no mention of RPG-29s. Additionally, the U.S. military has never displayed a captured one to reporters.
In a highly publicized February 2007 slide show, U.S. military briefers did include a picture of what was identified as a round to be fired by an Iranian-made RPG-7AT-1 launcher, a less advanced weapon than the RPG-29, although it did not depict the launcher itself. But the U.S. military has found no evidence of an Iranian pipeline of RPG-7s to Iraqi Shiite militants, either.

In more than two dozen MNF-I news releases on Iraqi Shiite weapons since early 2007, more than 200 RPGs are listed. Not a single one was identified as Iranian-made. That was not because of a lack of effort by the U.S. military, however, to determine whether captured weapons were of Iranian origin. Lt. Col. Steve Stover, the spokesman for the 4th Infantry Division, which is deployed in and around Baghdad, confirmed that explosives experts examine the findings at each cache site to determine the origin of the weapons. "Normally we say whether they are Iranian-manufactured or not," Stover said in a telephone interview.

Col. Maw said that the number of these weapons found in militants' possession is rising rapidly -- now more than 400 -- due to many discoveries being made by Iraqi Security Forces in recent months. "Very few of them are of recent manufacture," he said, suggesting that they came from Saddam Hussein's old stockpiles.

The U.S. command is so eager to highlight any weapons that can be linked to Iran that one MNF-I press release from last September singled out the discovery of four Iranian hand grenades. But that find hardly supported the Iranian-weapons narrative, because the grenades were found in an area frequented by Sunni militants associated with al-Qaida. (There is no reason to believe that Iran would arm extremist Sunni fighters, who consider both Iran and the Shiites as their arch enemies.)

In the early stages of the war, when the Bush administration was being criticized for its failure to prevent the looting of the Saddam Hussein regime's arms depots, Bush officials downplayed the importance of the weapons that disappeared. In October 2004, an unnamed senior administration official was quoted by CNN as saying that the weapons were "stuff you can buy anywhere."

Among the pilfered Iraqi weapons were thousands of RPG-7s, which soon turned up on Iraq's thriving black market. Malcolm Nance, an Arabic-speaking 20-year veteran of military and civilian U.S. intelligence, recalls being offered more than 20 RPG-7 rocket launchers and dozens of RPG rounds in a single trip to an arms bazaar in Sadr City in September 2003. According to Nance, RPG-7s were also on sale in black markets at another location in Baghdad and in at least seven other Iraqi cities.

In a telephone interview, Nance, who is now a counterterrorism consultant to Homeland Security and the Army's Special Operations Command, among other government agencies, recalled that the Iraqi RPG-7s were "so ubiquitous" that they were selling for a mere $50 each for the launcher and $5 each for an RPG missile.
Sunni fighters got large numbers of Saddam's RPG-7 stocks, as discovered by U.S. troops who were frequently attacked by them in the early stages of the insurgency. But the Mahdi army has also been able to purchase them easily over the past four years.

Equally troubling is the near certainty that Soviet-made RPGs purchased by the Pentagon in 2004 and turned over to Iraq's Ministry of Interior have fallen into the hands of the Mahdi army. Beginning in 2004, the Pentagon sent at least 7,500 Soviet-made RPG-7s and 4,500 Soviet-made under-barrel grenade launchers to Baghdad to be distributed to Iraqi Security Forces, along with hundreds of thousands of sidearms, according to a September 2007 report by the Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction. U.S. authorities hired civilian contractors to distribute the U.S.-purchased weapons, but had no system to account for them once they left U.S.-controlled warehouses in Iraq. As the New York Times reported last November, the Iraqi businessman contracted to distribute Pentagon-funded weapons from one depot was widely known to be stealing them from the warehouse by the truckload.

Only 499 of the 2,389 Soviet-made RPGs that were provided to the new Iraqi security forces could actually be accounted for through serial numbers, according to a report by the Defense Department Inspector General's Office in November -- and that was because they were still in the warehouse. No one knows how many of the other 1,900 RPGs entered the Iraqi arms market. Inspector General Claude Kicklighter told the Senate Appropriations Committee in March that there is an ongoing investigation into "pilferage of storage facilities" for the arms in Baghdad.

According to Col. Maw, MNF-I makes no effort to determine which, if any, of the Soviet-made RPGs came from the U.S.-financed weapons stocks. The munitions specialists responsible for assessing the weapons on site are unaware of the U.S.-financed RPGs from 2004, he said, so they would have no way of distinguishing them from other Soviet-made RPGs.

The Mahdi army had abundant opportunities to gain access to the U.S.-supplied weapons. During 2005 and 2006, the Shiite militants successfully infiltrated the Iraqi police as well as parts of the Iraqi military and government. The police in Sadr City were effectively controlled by the Mahdi army, and the militants had also penetrated several Iraqi army units stationed there. In Basra, the Mahdi army was part of a consortium of Shiite militias that used their control over a key police office to get access to various kinds of weapons.

The military official responsible for the decision to rush ahead with massive arms transfers to the Iraqi Security Forces in 2004 and 2005 -- despite the absence of a dependable tracking system and the wide reach of the Shiite militias -- was the man in charge of training and equipping those Iraqi forces: Gen. David Petraeus.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
The Brits still maintain their intel was correct. Wonderful.

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Originally posted by SergeantX:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Chrissy, if you could do me the favor of simply giving ONE lie Bush told that sent us to war w/ Iraq, I'd gladly say uncle.

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It works even better if you put your fingers in your ears and shout "I can't hear you!" over and over...

There have been several examples of Bush's lies in this thread, and many, many more in others over the years. All you're saying is you don't believe them - and then telling your own lies by saying no one has provided instances of Bush's.

Seriously, all you're proving with this droning refrain is your infinite capacity for delusion.

SergeantX

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
There's really no discussion; if you support lies, torture & war profiteering, then you are in Congress with the Beast. You are evil by mis-interpreting reality, or by embracing greed by way of death.

May God have mercy, 'cause Bush won't.


Biped Planetisall

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Originally posted by whozit:
Where do you get off deciding who's evil? Did you ever wonder if you may be on the wrong side? I'm sure during WW2 most Germans thought they were the good guys.

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Originally posted by whozit:

Where do you get off deciding who's evil? Did you ever wonder if you may be on the wrong side? I'm sure during WW2 most Germans thought they were the good guys. You're like those race baiting poverty pimps who think they have the power to decide who's black and who is not. For example, they say Justice Thomas is'nt black because he's a conservitive. If that empty suited puppet Obama gets elected and things get worse, will you call him evil or make excuses for him. Also, the Demonrats now control the house and senate, they said in 2006 they'd do something to lower gas prices. THEY LIED!!!!

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Originally posted by whozit:

Where do you get off deciding who's evil? Did you ever wonder if you may be on the wrong side? I'm sure during WW2 most Germans thought they were the good guys. You're like those race baiting poverty pimps who think they have the power to decide who's black and who is not. For example, they say Justice Thomas is'nt black because he's a conservitive. If that empty suited puppet Obama gets elected and things get worse, will you call him evil or make excuses for him. Also, the Demonrats now control the house and senate, they said in 2006 they'd do something to lower gas prices. THEY LIED!!!!

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Where to begin...?

You're sure during WWII most Germans thought they were the good guys, huh? Guess what - when Bush launched this illegal, immoral, and unjust war, most Americans thought they were the good guys, too. So YOU are saying that America is no better than Nazi Germany! If they thought they were the good guys, did that make it so? Were they in fact good, or were they evil?

"Poverty pimps" - You mean like the conservative talk-radio hosts who refer to Obama as a "Halfrican-American"? Those race-baiters? The ones who also get to decide who's a Muslim? I honestly don't think I've ever heard anyone claim that Justice Clarence Thomas "isn't black". I *have* heard people say that he doesn't represent black interests, but those people are dolts who don't realize that Thomas wasn't appointed to the Black Supreme Court, but rather to the United States Supreme Court, which represents ALL of the American people, not just the white or black ones.

If Obama gets elected and things get worse... Define "worse". If he launches a war based on lies and misrepresentation, if he uses ruses like "security" and fear to try to strip away Constitutional protections, if he tries to replace public education with state-sponsored faith-based religious indoctrination, then yes, I'll call him evil. If he tries to expand the use of torture on American soil, then yes, I'll call him evil.

Will I make excuses for him? You mean excuses like, "but the President doesn't have any say over the economy" or "but he never lied, because he's the President" or "we don't torture because the President said so"? Those kinds of excuses? I'll leave those to you and your kind.



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Originally posted by whozit:
were do you get the rite to call me call me and my kind evil?

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Originally posted by whozit:Where do you get off deciding who's evil? Did you ever wonder if you may be on the wrong side? I'm sure during WW2 most Germans thought they were the good guys. You're like those race baiting poverty pimps who think they have the power to decide who's black and who is not.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:


Them's the facts, whether you want to accept them or not.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by whozit:
were do you get the rite to call me call me and my kind evil?

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You support Charles Manson and you support murder- evil.
You support Saddam Hussien and you support genocide- evil.
You support Bush and you support feeding the men & women of our armed forces into a meat-grinder, and having the wounded come back to intentionally sub-standard care- evil.

It's a no-brainer Whozit...you just don't support those that trade death for profit & power.

Try not to be so evil in future, okay?


Judge Chrisisall

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Originally posted by whozit:
If that empty suited puppet Obama gets elected and things get worse, will you call him evil

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by whozit:
If that empty suited puppet Obama gets elected and things get worse, will you call him evil

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Well, since he's a puppet, technically, the source of evil would be the hand....

Digital Chrisisall

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Originally posted by whozit:
The filthy lies you and your kind spread make you the evil ones........

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Originally posted by whozit:

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FDR sent troops to destroy Hitler, thousnds of troops died, in your eyes FDR as evil as Hitler? Bush did not intentionaly send wounded troops to rat infested care centers, that's a lie! So that makes you people liars! There for as the filthy liars that you are, this makes you the evil ones, because the evil lie! I bet you filthy liars also think Bush and Jews planed the 9/11 attacks, this makes Ya'll liars and NUTZ!!!

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
You support Charles Manson and you support murder- evil.
You support Saddam Hussien and you support genocide- evil.
You support Bush and you support feeding the men & women of our armed forces into a meat-grinder, and having the wounded come back to intentionally sub-standard care- evil.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:


I'm THIS CLOSE to banning you from this thread, my friend, due your gleeful embrace of evil here.....you vex me to no end!!!
Don't be surprised if you get a burn notice soon!



The angry green Chrisisall

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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FDR sent troops to destroy Hitler, thousnds of troops died, in your eyes FDR as evil as Hitler? Bush did not intentionaly send wounded troops to rat infested care centers, that's a lie! So that makes you people liars! There for as the filthy liars that you are, this makes you the evil ones, because the evil lie! I bet you filthy liars also think Bush and Jews planed the 9/11 attacks, this makes Ya'll liars and NUTZ!!!

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Am I supposed to laugh, or was this serious?


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Let's party like it's 1929.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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You seem to be saying that if he didn't know it was a lie, then it wasn't a lie.

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Wait a second, that's true though. Say you miss the big ball game, you ring your brother and he tells you that Boston won when they lost. You then tell your friend Jerry that Boston won.

Did you just lie to Jerry? Or did you just pass along information that proves to be wrong?

To my mind being wrong and telling a lie hinges completely on if the person giving out the information knows it to be false otherwise it's just bad info.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Throw in a Bruce Campbell character and a zesty Fiona clone, and I'm all for it !

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Originally posted by whozit:
thousnds
intentionaly

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