If you like Bush & what he's done to this world, you are evil. by chrisisall

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by rallem:
Finding these articles would be difficult if you desired to find them, and I somehow suspect that you wouldn't be too thrilled at finding the evidence. I would be thrilled at finding the information and yet even I can't be bothered to search too deeply so I can't tell you if these articles exist, but I can tell you from talking with Veterans of the Special Forces who were there that these camps did exist.
And I can tell you from talking with veterans of the Special Forces and people somewhat higher than that, that they did not.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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]

You have no idea what level the people I spoke to wee so you cannot say that.

http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

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Monday, June 16, 2008 9:25 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by rallem:
You have no idea what level the people I spoke to wee so you cannot say that.

I can't say that the some of the people I spoke to were higher than some of the other people I spoke to? Ok. I think you need to take a refresher course in reading comprehension

. Actually Special Forces personnel on the ground don't tend to be very high up the chain of command, not much past Sargent, which is lower than my own grade FYI.

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Monday, June 16, 2008 9:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
How can we have serious political discussions here anyway? It's always no-oh-oh, yes-ess-ess. Facts are irrelevant; it's opinions that dominate. Lies are mis-told truth, and truth is mis-understood lies.
[/serious mode]

I don't disagree with you on that! It's just interesting to see that even the most positive and humorous people - like you - can get beat down by RWED, all the way to the point of calling folks evil. Hey - I'll admit I find it funny and oddly satisfying, but it won't get us anywhere but further divided.

I sometimes wonder what the RWED would be like if the serious name-callers and overly defensive types (I don't mean you) would just shut up for a while. I mean, do you ever get the feeling that people might actually agree on the basics, but they're so busy being Type A, mis-reading each other's posts and screaming and yelling over strawmen, that they can't see it? They turn everything into so much a bigger deal than it is.

YOU SAY THIS ONE WATERBOARDING CASE IS PERMISSABLE THEREFORE YOU LOVE ALL TORTURE AND HATE AMERICA YOU NAZI LOVING FREEEEEEEK!!!!!!!!!

YOU DON'T SUPPORT THIS OTHER WATERBOARDING CASE THEREFORE YOU'RE WITH THE TERRORISTS AND HATE AMERICA YOU NAZI LOVING FREEEEEEEK!!!!!!

*sigh*

Quote:
You are not banned from this thread Mal, provided you supply me with glue to sniff to make my digestion of AU's position on world politics easier to understand.

No fun glue, sorry, just a theory I've been working on for many years...

See, it's a cult. Bush and his crew and his diehard following is totally a cult built around a central personality and a system of paranoia, blind loyalty, and self-deception. Focus the spotlight on that last one: self-deception. That's the key. I tell you, Scott McClellan - his own actions and the things he said about Bush - made this so clear to me. They're a cult, plain and simple.

I don't believe they're consciously, intentionally cultish, and I don't believe they're evil. All the accusations we throw at them - and at Rap - will never make any sense to them because they genuinely aren't out to hurt anyone. They just want to exist on their own terms, which include a few basic and not unreasonable things, such as: 1) A solid foundation on which to build a sense of self worth 2) The safety of being able to identify friend from foe 3) Power over their own fate, rather than helplessness.

I think we all have these needs, but a good cult will find ways to twist them, to make people act against their own interests, just so they can have a guarantee that these needs will be met. ie 1) America is the F*cking BEST and if anyone doesn't like us it's because they're JEALOUS! 2) As long as I surround myself with white-skinned well-dressed Bible-loving folks who wear US flag lapel pins, no one will ever, ever hurt me. 3) I'm unhappy and gotta act right now dammit! Something, anything! You say Muslims did it? All right, let's go kill some Muslims!

The problem lies in how people get so desperate to have these needs met, and so reliant on the cult that guarantees all this for them, that they can't see the damage being done. They can't face up to how maybe things aren't working so good. If they do, they lose everything. Everything! No wonder Rap puts up such a fight. Losing Bush is more than losing a hero to him - it's the loss of his identity as a vastly superior and righteous American, the loss of his personal security blanket and his percieved control over a scary and dangerous world. In fact, I'd say that attacking him the way folks do in RWED will only make him cling more tightly to his cult. It fits his idea that liberals and Democrats are out to get him and destroy the comfy fortress that Bush built. He may really believe that has no where else to go.

BTW, lest this be taken as Dem/Rep thing - I became a strident Hillary non-supporter because I began to see some very Bush-like tendencies in her, self-deception being the main thing. What did McClellan say? Bush makes himself believe things that are convenient. Hmm. Hillary says: "I'm doing what's right for the party, not what's right for me..." And: "It's the superdelegates that count - oh, I mean the big states that count - oh, I mean the polls that count..."

What scares me is that I think she really made herself believe that crap. She wasn't just trying to fool us - she wasn't lying. She really talked herself into believing these things she said, and so was able to present it as 100% truth. And her supporters admire her for this blatant self-deception.

Cult, indeed!

Ok. I think this post fills my RWED quota for the next month or so...

-----------------------------------------------
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Monday, June 16, 2008 10:05 AM

Special Forces personal on the Ground in an A Team are very rarely below the rank of Sergeant and there usually is an officer there or very nearby, and there are warrent officers too.

http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

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Monday, June 16, 2008 10:11 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
even the most positive and humorous people - like you - can get beat down by RWED, all the way to the point of calling folks evil.

No, I'm not so beat down, but I am tired of actually arguing my points to the point of frustration. Peeps will believe what they will- best have a sense of humour about it.

Quote:
They can't face up to how maybe things aren't working so good. If they do, they lose everything. Everything! No wonder Rap puts up such a fight. Losing Bush is more than losing a hero to him - it's the loss of his identity as a vastly superior and righteous American, the loss of his personal security blanket and his percieved control over a scary and dangerous world. In fact, I'd say that attacking him the way folks do in RWED will only make him cling more tightly to his cult.

Y'know, when we ain't talkin' politics, I actually get on well with the dude. Peeps need to ease up on the control thing...me included at times.

Quote:
She wasn't just trying to fool us - she wasn't lying. She really talked herself into believing these things she said

Scarier to hear that crap than bona fide lies, IMO.

Maybe Bush didn't lie, but the alternative is worse, so I was giving him the benefit of the doubt, heh heh.

BTW Mal, you are evil.

Evil Chrisisall

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Monday, June 16, 2008 10:18 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by rallem:
Special Forces personal on the Ground in an A Team are very rarely below the rank of Sergeant and there usually is an officer there or very nearby, and there are warrent officers too.

Do you bother to read what I write? I didn't say below Sergeant, I said not much past (higher than) it. A Warrant Officer in the US army, which is what I assume you are referring to, is between NCOs and Commissioned officers in Rank, i.e. not very high up the chain of command. As for officers I'd be surprised to see anyone above an O3 routinely in the field, but more likely an O1 or O2.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, June 16, 2008 10:23 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Mal4Prez:

Once again, I bow to you. You are my idol.

Well said, and too true. Even the part about "certain people" getting a bit too aggro about their points. Point taken. :)

Never thought about it that way, but it makes perfect sense. Cult Bush. Cripes, it sounds even worse than Cult Saturn!

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Monday, June 16, 2008 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
No, I'm not so beat down, but I am tired of actually arguing my points to the point of frustration. Peeps will believe what they will- best have a sense of humour about it.

Agreed! Um... except when I have a chance to wax on about my odd theories...

Yeah, and the debates have gotten old. Lying! Not lying! Was too! Was not! Your candidate's a toad! Your mom's ugly! You're a nazi! You're a biped!

Ok, I admit - I do enjoy that last one LOL!

Quote:
Scarier to hear that crap than bona fide lies, IMO.

There was point when I realized that W wasn't actually the head of an evil but competent cabal with plans of exploiting Iraq for oil and taking over the world. Thing is, if that were the case, he'd at least have a plan. Meaning, yes, I find it scarier that the leader of the free world got the US mired in this mess through nothing but his own idiocy and psychological backwardness. There's just no clear no way out.

Quote:
BTW Mal, you are evil.

Why thank you. I do my best.

-----------------------------------------------
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Monday, June 16, 2008 10:47 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Why thank you. I do my best.

You're welcome.

Absolutely off-topic: Burn Notice tomorrow on DVD...be there. Aloha.

Charred Chrisisall

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Monday, June 16, 2008 11:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by rallem:
Special Forces personal on the Ground in an A Team are very rarely below the rank of Sergeant and there usually is an officer there or very nearby, and there are warrent officers too.
Do you bother to read what I write? I didn't say below Sergeant, I said not much past (higher than) it. A Warrant Officer in the US army, which is what I assume you are referring to, is between NCOs and Commissioned officers in Rank, i.e. not very high up the chain of command. As for officers I'd be surprised to see anyone above an O3 routinely in the field, but more likely an O1 or O2.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
]

You are mistaken with the Warrent Officers in the Army. Now a Warrent Officer is considered a commisioned officer and while the pay is different it is considered a wo1 is equal to a 2lt, a cw2 to a 1lt, cw3, a cpt, cw4 a maj, and a cw5 to a ltc. When I was in the Army they only went up to cw4, but I think they are considering raising it to cw6.

http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

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Monday, June 16, 2008 11:36 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by rallem:
You are mistaken with the Warrent Officers in the Army. Now a Warrent Officer is considered a commisioned officer and while the pay is different it is considered a wo1 is equal to a 2lt, a cw2 to a 1lt, cw3, a cpt, cw4 a maj, and a cw5 to a ltc. When I was in the Army they only went up to cw4, but I think they are considering raising it to cw6.

Actually it's not that simple, because Warrant Officers are technical, not command. That's why they're on a different pay grade. A CW2 on is considered a commissioned rank, but I've not seen anything that suggests they're equivalent to the generalist command Commissioned Officer ranks.

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Monday, June 16, 2008 11:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by rallem:
You are mistaken with the Warrent Officers in the Army. Now a Warrent Officer is considered a commisioned officer and while the pay is different it is considered a wo1 is equal to a 2lt, a cw2 to a 1lt, cw3, a cpt, cw4 a maj, and a cw5 to a ltc. When I was in the Army they only went up to cw4, but I think they are considering raising it to cw6.
Actually it's not that simple, because Warrant Officers are technical, not command. That's why they're on a different pay grade. A CW2 on is considered a commissioned rank, but I've not seen anything that suggests they're equivalent to the generalist command Commissioned Officer ranks.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
]

You are right it is more complicated than that and from the explanation I received verbally that was basically it. I don’t know if the example I provided is in any way official or not, and I don’t know if it was made to help soldiers understand the rank of the warrant officer. When I was in the Army an enlisted man did not have to salute a warrant officer but at the same time it was not a sin to salute a warrant officer and my limited exposure was to warrant officers who were helicopter pilots.

http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

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Monday, June 16, 2008 2:07 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I want the ABILITY to use tough tactics, even if we don't ever use them or not.

The "ability" is always there, Rapo. What you want is the legality.

Mal4Prez- Agreed on the cult thing. What I see... take it FWIW... is that those who stick closest to Bush are run by fear. (I also noticed that they tend to pick the most self-aggrandizing names, like 'gold raptor' and 'hero' and 'Finn McCumhal'... but I digress.) I feel sorry for Rapo. He's driven by fear, which can apparently only be assuaged by burying himself into the middle of the biggest, toughest herd he can find. And now, he's thinking that his herd may be dissolving from around him. No wonder he's so paranoid. He sees every question as a defection from the group that's between him and the other.

But to get to the question of Bush's position in the cult. Curiously, he's not the real leader.

If I had to pick anyone it would be Cheney. It was Cheney who anointed himself VP (Recall that he was the head of the VP search committee. When he picked himself as the most credible candidate.. bum ticker and all.. I can't help thinking of the cartoon "Aladdin" where the Grand Vizier in fake surprise says... 'Why, that would be... me!!!'), he was the one who headed the secretive Energy Task Force that looked longingly on a map of Iraq, appointed Rumsfeld who in turn appointed Wolfowitz, Cheney who held Bush's hand during the 9-11 Commission hearings, set up the Office of Special Plans (OSP) to bypass intelligence vetting of Iraq data, and who haunted the analysts' offices while the intel was being collated.

But what about Bush?

I actually got a lot out of Scott McClellan's book. It seems the straw the broke that camels' back for Scott was the outing of Valerie Plame, and the fact that "they" subsequently lied to him... used him...to say that nobody in the WH was aware or authorized the leak when they clearly had. At some point, when he realized he'd been duped his effectiveness as Press Scy tanked.

But his take on Bush as a self-deceiver is key. Bush has a conveniently flexible inner narrative. Bush believes what Cheney tells him, and because Bush HAS to believe that he's "the decider" he also believes that he thought it up all on his own. And if the story changes, so does his inner narrative. Bush has no ethical anchor or mental compass, no sense of where he's been and what direction he's heading.

Bush may have consciously lied from time to time, but mostly he believes the latest version of what he's been told. For him it's a seamless slide from al Qaida to WMD to "mission accomplished" to "freedom" to "the surge is working". Right now Cheney et al have no reason to plant yet another narrative in Bush's mind: Altho the Iraq war didn't wind up with showers of rose petals, the oil companies are making money hand over fist and so is Halliburton. So why rock the boat? Status quo is fine for them.

---------------------------------
My mind's made up. Don't confuse me with the facts.

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Monday, June 16, 2008 2:27 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I sometimes wonder what's been done to Bush. He started out with some brains and abilities, even if a sociopath. Now he's some weird, putty-colored non-human puppet thing.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Monday, June 16, 2008 2:56 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I think he's been chemically altered. Some of it his own doing no doubt. I saw clips of him "back in the day" when he was helping his daddy's campaign. He actually had a spark of spontaneity, wit and charm. Now he's like a shell... he doesn't know what to do or what to say unless someone is telling him, like that debate picture of "the box" under his jacket, and those infamous voices to whom he spontaneously whined "Let me finish!! in the middle of his own statement when no one was interrupting.

Some people claim that his jaw shake is typical of present cocaine use. Others say he's a dry drunk. I think he's manipulated heavily. Maybe they "let" him have coke if he's a good boy. Feed him pills to sleep, and more pills to wake up. Even being the figurehead of so much damage, I kinda feel sorry for him. He's in way over his head and after his term is over they'll just kick him to the curb. But right now he's pretty much invisible... just running out the clock while oil and private security companies rake it in.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Monday, June 16, 2008 3:15 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Paul O'Neill (The Price of Loyalty) described how, early-on in the administration, he would meet with Bush to discuss the economy, and Bush would stare ahead, not responding in any way. To the point of not even having a non-verbal reaction to his presence. O'Neill was an experienced CEO, playing chicken in the boardrooms of multi-nationals. I'm sure he saw every variation of high-stakes deception and game-playing imaginable. And if he says Bush was weird - far outside of behavior he'd experienced - then Bush was weird.

When it comes to Bush, I don't care how much you remind someone to 'behave' and not make any comments, ask any questions, provide any feedback, cause any problems. A person with even semi-normal neurology is going to show some trace of human reaction, if only to flick a glance at the person who is talking and moving. Bush's behavior was clearly pathological.

I can't help but think there is something creepier than delusion and a smoldering drug habit going on. And how much did baby Bush agree to and how much was done to.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Monday, June 16, 2008 3:22 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

What could be worse? A secret surgical frontal lobotomy? A chemical lobotomy?

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Monday, June 16, 2008 3:37 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I have no clue.

But think about Bush's 'deer-in-the-headlights' minutes afer 9/11. It has some congruence with what O'Neill described.

What could possibly cause both reactions ?

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Monday, June 16, 2008 6:37 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I dunno... electroshock "treatment"? Too much L-dopa? Aversive conditioning? Hypnosis? Cocaine rewards for good behavior?

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 1:34 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
I feel sorry for Rapo. He's driven by fear, which can apparently only be assuaged by burying himself into the middle of the biggest, toughest herd he can find. And now, he's thinking that his herd may be dissolving from around him. No wonder he's so paranoid. He sees every question as a defection from the group that's between him and the other.j

I love how some of you pocket psychologist have it all figured out, or so you think. Herd or no, dealing head on w/ the problems facing our country is the best solution. There's no paranoia here, just understanding. SOME want to deny it, placate those who vow to murder us , at any expense, and simply go on living their day, as if it were like any other. I'm just glad my country has leaders who are willing to do the right thing.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
I feel sorry for Rapo. He's driven by fear, which can apparently only be assuaged by burying himself into the middle of the biggest, toughest herd he can find. And now, he's thinking that his herd may be dissolving from around him. No wonder he's so paranoid. He sees every question as a defection from the group that's between him and the other.j

I love how some of you pocket psychologist have it all figured out, or so you think. Herd or no, dealing head on w/ the problems facing our country is the best solution. There's no paranoia here, just understanding. SOME want to deny it, placate those who vow to murder us , at any expense, and simply go on living their day, as if it were like any other. I'm just glad my country has leaders who are willing to do the right thing.

Prove it.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:16 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I love how some of you pocket psychologist have it all figured out, or so you think. Herd or no, dealing head on w/ the problems facing our country is the best solution.There's no paranoia here, just understanding.

Rapo, there is a big disconnect in your brain that just can't be crossed by the spark of discovery. So here's the secret that's been in plain view all along: I agree with you! We ALL agree with you!

Figure THAT one out!

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:03 AM

STORYMARK

Coming in late:

Totally agree with the initial post.

And though I havn't read the whole thing yet, I feel safe in assuming anything Rap has to say is utter bullshit (I can already hear his "Bush didn't lie - ever!" refrain....).

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Mal4Prez:

Once again, I bow to you. You are my idol.

Careful - my head is big enough already LOL!

Quote:
Well said, and too true. Even the part about "certain people" getting a bit too aggro about their points. Point taken. :)

Actually, wasn't meaning to poke at you. In fact, I frequently find that when I'm tempted to come out of lurkerdom I don't need to, cause you post the argument I'd use - by which I mean information based rather than emotional.

-----------------------------------------------
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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:54 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ehhh...how about this. Grow up, people. I don't agree with all of what Bush has done, however....

If a Democrat had been in the office when 9/11 happened, they would have limpwristed their way through it. 9/11 was an act of war. Not a police action...

Rememebr when the Twin Towers were first attacked? And Clintons response to it?

Do I agree with losing our privacy and freedoms for this? Hell the f no. But do I think a weak Democrat is the right idea? Noooooo......

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:56 AM

SERGEANTX

Just for shits and grins, I'll say a piece for the 'other' side.

A while ago, I caught an episode of Boston Legal (purely on accident, believe me) that caused me to consider things somewhat differently.

In the episode, the Alan Shore character had agreed to take on a case for a group who wanted to secede from the US - some county in Connecticut or something - mainly due to disagreements with the policies of the Bush administration. His partner, and good friend, Denny Crane was appalled that Shore would agree to represent such an unpatriotic cause. To cut to the chase, Crane volunteered to represent the defense and ended up arguing against his old friend in court.

The debate was interesting, if largely predictable, but Crane made a particular point that opened my eyes a bit. He made the case that people of younger generations, particularly post-World War II, lack a certain appreciation for the fragility of national independence and sovereignty. He pointed out that most of us can't even really conceive of the possibility that we may lose the nation that we take for granted.

He argued that people of his generation, and perhaps others with a clear understanding what's a stake, can imagine the possibility of waking up one day to find that our nation is lost, discovering that, in our complacency, we've failed to protect that which is most dear - and lost it. Many of them faced that very possibility when it looked like nothing could withstand the relentless march of Hitler across Europe and they know it can happen again.

Overall, I think the argument is an overstatement, especially when you consider the relative strength of the Islamic fundamentalists. They're mostly a boogeyman, an slim excuse for PNAC's global agenda. But I do feel like I have a little better understanding of where the hawks are coming from - and why it can become such an emotional issue for them.

The irony is that, in my opinion, their emotional response veres into the irrational, and they begin doing exactly the things that might bring about the thing they fear most.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Mal4Prez- Agreed on the cult thing. What I see... take it FWIW... is that those who stick closest to Bush are run by fear.

And insecurity. Yes, I think those are the two main motivations behind getting caught up in these cult groups.

Quote:
But to get to the question of Bush's position in the cult. Curiously, he's not the real leader.

Nope. Just a figurehead - and what a good one. He's so daft he's perfect - questions bounce off him like he's a moldy lump of swiss cheese, and he's so easy deluded that he believes every insane thing he says, hence folks like Rap can defend the administrations actions. The President believes and defends it, so it MUST be true!

Quote:
I can't help thinking of the cartoon "Aladdin" where the Grand Vizier in fake surprise says... 'Why, that would be... me!!!')

Wow. I hd totally forgotten that line - it's perfect LOL! Cheney truly is the devil in this situation. If there's anyone I can be convinced is evil, it's him. He viewed Watergate as a wrongful drain of executive power, and it's been his goal since then to change the balance back. Well, he achieved his aim.

As for Bush - I too have seen comparisons of him as President to him in the early 90s. It's frightening. Definitely mental decay. I have no idea what did it. I'm so amused by the idea of Cheney throwing him a little bag of coke and sending him off to a playroom while the adults do business LOL!

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:05 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ehhh...how about this. Grow up, people. I don't agree with all of what Bush has done, however....

If a Democrat had been in the office when 9/11 happened, they would have limpwristed their way through it. 9/11 was an act of war. Not a police action...

Those psychic powers of yours must be mighty handy, being able to tell what would have happened if an alternate reality.

And yeah, 9/11 was an act of war. Too bad we didn't actually commit to winning that war, and instead started another one with someone un-related....

But I guess some people will just feel better as long as we blow someone up.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:06 AM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
9/11 was an act of war.

But this is the single biggest mistake we've made. It wasn't an act of war. It was a politically inspired criminal act. It was a terrorist attack, not warfare. They're not the same thing. That's why we have different words for them.

For some reason though, our leadership wanted a war. So they opportunistically used the emotional state of our nation, and the ambiguities of our language to create one. But it's war against no one, with no victory conditions. It's Orwell's perpetual war and it's no coincidence our leaders have followed his blueprint for sustaining it. "Doublespeak" is alive and well, and a key tool for the Bush administration.

I don't think we'll make any real progress in stopping the terrorist threat until we understand the difference between warfare and terrorism. Applying strategies of war to a problem that isn't a war will never work.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:19 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Rememebr when the Twin Towers were first attacked? And Clintons response to it?"

Ehhh, he caught, prosecuted and jailed the people responsible. Put al Qaeda on HIS personal map - had a cabinet level terrorist watch group which actually tried to warn Bush about 9/11 (before Bush dismantled it and then outed a covert CIA operative). Kept the US safe for the balance of his terms.

AND balanced the budget, put the US on good terms with allies and new friends, and had a great US economy to boot. Remember those heady days when people were actually wondering how to spend the surplus ?

You have a problem with that ?

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Bush OTOH let bin Laden go, let al Qaeda regroup, blinded himself on the real mid-east threat (Iran) by outing the one person who had a chance of getting nuclear information (Plame), attacked a bystander nation ... busted the budget and alienated pretty much everyone, which wrecked the economy and sank the dollar.

And you don't have a problem with that ?

Because why ? Because Bush stuffed a codpiece in the front of his flightsuit, waddled like a baby with an overfull diaper, and declared Iraq done ?

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:20 AM

ELVISCHRIST

Quote:
But it's war against no one, with no victory conditions. It's Orwell's perpetual war and it's no coincidence our leaders have followed his blueprint for sustaining it.

This is what I've been saying since before the war, when Bush claimed his "Global War on Terror" - it's a war on *ideas*, a war on *thoughts*. After all, what exactly constitutes "terror"? Anything and everything that is aimed at terrorizing people or terrifying them? Are horror movies then considered "terror"? What about news reports? What about Republican ad campaigns? Are those terror?

You've launched a war against a tenuous, invisible enemy who's ever-changing, and you can never, ever win it, but you've got what you wanted: the Long War.

EC

Takin' Care of Business, Baby!

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:23 AM

ELVISCHRIST

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

If a Democrat had been in the office when 9/11 happened, they would have limpwristed their way through it. 9/11 was an act of war. Not a police action...

You mean that if McCain had been in office, he'd have surrendered and denounced America? He's done it before!

Just wondering.

Takin' Care of Business, Baby!

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 9:38 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

So Rapo, have you figured out yet how we can agree on your essential point, which is tackling the problem of jihadism head-on?

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Let's party like it's 1929.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:10 PM

MAZAEN

If don't support Bush you don't believe in defending yourself and the innocent in your own country and supporting bombing murders, believing that evil people are really misunderstood souls and hiding behind rhetoric I think your entitled to your opinion.

How is your evil meter?I wonder if your your evil meter is working. Some people have a good evil meter and some people's evil meter's just don't work very well. My mother's evil meter is pathetic( although she herself is pretty great) so she borrows my excellent evil meter when she dates a man. She asks me whether I like him and I usually tell her I don't and then she doesn't go out with him anymore.

I've known evil people unfortunately. Those evil persons are a long story and I won't discuss it now. As a result of knowing evil people I have developed an uncanny sense of people who are good indifferent or evil and good people just from passing them. I got a really bad feeling when I once passed a bloke on a bus and just from that awful vibe, I deliberately sat a long way away from him. When I stepped off the bus I mentioned him to the person who was picking me up and she told me he was convicted of raping an old lady 5 years ago.

Completely unrelated, do you think that there would have been a more positive public response to the Iraq war if Arnold Swarteneggar had been the president instead of George Bush during the time of the Iraq war? I think Arnold would have said 2 words beacause in the terminator he often said 2 words and he would have been believed.

To the person who said Clinton was handsome I would like to respond by saying that Clinton is not handsome at all!

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:09 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Was this supposed to read "If YOU don't support Bush you don't believe in defending yourself and the innocent in your own country and supporting bombing murders, believing that evil people are really misunderstood souls and hiding behind rhetoric I think your entitled to your opinion."

May I ask you a question or two ? How did bombing and killing tens to hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis fight 'evil' ? And, uhhmm, since you claim such a great evil-meter - why didn't this obviously wanton destruction of human life that made 9/11 pale in scope - make yours peg-out ?

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My evil-meter is pretty good - I deduced Bush was a sociopath from during his first campaign.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:19 PM

MAZAEN

If it had been a terrorist who killed a large number of Iraqis (And actually quite a large portion were killed by terrorsts)my evil meter would definantly start humming.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:28 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

So you don't define people as evil by what they do. You define them as evil according to who you think they are. They are evil b/c I think they're terrorists and terrorists are evil.

Nice circular logic. And by that I mean idiotic.

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"By their fruits you shall know them."

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:38 PM

MAZAEN

Can I ask you a question? Do you think terrorists are evil or just acting in defense? Because I don't think bombing people to make others conform to a religious belief is defending islam or a country. I think it as offensive as an attack. There is no goodness in that at all. But if a terrorist was acting in defence when people were killing his family then this would be good. The difference between defence and offence is when you hope to repel the ememy by the size of your peace time army or by taking action that you hope will reduce the offensive actions of the other party on your country. If you don't think the action will help stop someone from killing you then it is more like revenge.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:43 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I think bombing a country that wasn't hurting you and wasn't going to hurt you is evil. Agreed ?

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:55 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Oh come on. It's a simple question.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:57 PM

Quote:
But if a terrorist was acting in defence when people were killing his family then this would be good.

Isn't that part of the current situation in Iraq?

When you leave me nothing to live for, all you leave me is something to die for. What's left to me is to choose how, when, and where.

THAT is the situation we have put ourselves in in Iraq.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:05 PM

Quote:

Completely unrelated, do you think that there would have been a more positive public response to the Iraq war if Arnold Swarteneggar had been the president instead of George Bush during the time of the Iraq war? I think Arnold would have said 2 words beacause in the terminator he often said 2 words and he would have been believed.

Completely irrelevant. Schwarzeneggar CAN NOT be the President of the United States, without a Constitutional Amendment. See Article II, Section 1, Paragraph 5, which reads in its entirety:

Quote:

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

It's the first seven words that render Ahnolt's candidacy a non-issue. Might as well ask "What would have happened if Jesus Christ had been President on 9/11? Would he have miracled our asses out of a real bummer of a situation?"

Also, in the real world, you often encounter people who just steadfastly refuse to follow your script, so two words might not have been enough, or believed, unless those two words were "Oh, SHIT!"

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:21 PM

PIRATECAT

Hey what stopped ya from being a human shield. Most dudes I know who work for Haliburton are democrats. I contract so I get around. The goverment can't handle dudes like me. Syria we need to blast off the face of the earth, then Ole Persia, stay in Iraq so europa gets their oil. The US gets it from Kuwait, SA, and Oman. Look scumming ole england after ww1. The bad US had to go over and bail em out. Were still there because we don't trust those idiots to have a military. Your propaganda don't work on me. Just like little villages in Vietnam stock piling rice huts for the enemy. Their just peaceful people scratching out a living. Rome was still the best place to live.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:22 PM

Quote:
If you don't think the action will help stop someone from killing you then it is more like revenge.

You're getting warmer...

I think you're falling into the Administration's talking-points trap, wherein you think Iraq was somehow linked to Osama Bin Laden and September Eleven. Going into Afghanistan, "revenge" or not, was completely justified in my view. Bin Laden was there, the Taliban gave him safe harbor and thought they were immune to any retribution, and showing them quite forcefully the error of their ways was a justifiable response.

I have no love for Bin Laden or for any terrorist. Find Osama, put him on trial, convict him, sentence him to death, and I will personally volunteer to put 30 bullets in that giant misshapen head of his (and this is coming from a far-left liberal!).

But we took our eye off the prize, and decided to wage war on Iraq instead, and instead of dealing a blow to terrorism and jihadis around the world, we gave them something worth fighting for - and they are, in droves. And because of our actions in Iraq, we are now seen as the invaders, the occupiers, the oppressors, and we've created more terrorists than we ever thought we could. Some of them are no doubt doing it because they truly believe in their mission (much like some of our forces), some because they just want to be in the action and hopefully be seen as a "hero" when it's all said and done (much like some of our forces), and some of them are doubtless there just to try to blow some shit up (much like some of our forces). There ARE evil people there, on both sides. What we call a "terrorist" in this war would have been called a "guerilla" in another time, or even a "minuteman" 240 years ago (remember, they didn't play by the rules, either, positioning snipers to take out high-ranking officers, in direct contravention of the accepted rules of warfare at the time). What WE saw as patriotism and crafty fighting during the Revolutionary War, the British saw as terrorism and unacceptable behavior by a band of insurgents.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PirateCat:
Hey what stopped ya from being a human shield. Most dudes I know who work for Haliburton are democrats. I contract so I get around. The goverment can't handle dudes like me. Syria we need to blast off the face of the earth, then Ole Persia, stay in Iraq so europa gets their oil. The US gets it from Kuwait, SA, and Oman. Look scumming ole england after ww1. The bad US had to go over and bail em out. Were still there because we don't trust those idiots to have a military. Your propaganda don't work on me. Just like little villages in Vietnam stock piling rice huts for the enemy. Their just peaceful people scratching out a living. Rome was still the best place to live.

Now that, my freinds, was some genuine Frontier American gibberish.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:36 PM

PIRATECAT

This rag head is running around in Jolly Ole England after being freed on bail. Thanks President George W. Bush. Glad America has Gitmo to hold, torture, and poke at the animals of humanity.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:43 PM