First California gay couples wed by Geezer

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Marriage is a religious institution.....how is it the governments business to define what can be a marriage or not?

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:43 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

More power to 'em - Gays have every right to be just as miserable as the rest of the married population... :P

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Marriage is a religious institution.....how is it the governments business to define what can be a marriage or not?

Because what *religion* you are (or aren't, as the case may be) doesn't enter into whether you can get insurance coverage, survivorship benefits, etc. - that's where you need the LEGAL standing.

Besides, my wife and I are atheist. Does that mean we're not married?

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:55 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Marriage is still a RELIGIOUS institution. Whatever your religion may be. I have a problem with gays using the term marriage. If they are married by a religious instituion (church, synagouge, ect) then it is a marriage. Otherwise, its a civil union.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:35 AM

FLETCH2

I didn't get married in church do I have a civil union?

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:49 AM

WASHNWEAR

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
I didn't get married in church do I have a civil union?

If you and your spouse say things like "please" and "thank you" to each other, then I'm pretty sure that's civil...

It was NOBODY'S GORRAM BUSINESS when we got here!

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:49 AM

EVILDINOSAUR

yay, I have a friend out there who's getting married in 2 days, im glad he's finally able to

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:58 AM

WASHNWEAR

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Marriage is a religious institution.....how is it the governments business to define what can be a marriage or not?

Besides, my wife and I are atheist. Does that mean we're not married?

Mike

Not at all, my good Sir Kwick-O - according to my excitingly judgemental friends on the Religious Right, you and your good lady wife will merely burn in hell for all eternity, or happily ever after, whichever comes first.

This is my tongue, and this is my cheek...please note their proximity.

It was like ALL THE MISTER & MISS GRUNDYs OF THE WORLD THOUGHT THEY HAD A DIRECT PIPELINE TO THE WILL AND WHIMS OF ALMIGHTY BOG when we got here!

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:46 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

*sigh This is not a religious fundie issue....Its a seperation of church and state issue... and also a states rights issue...

The federal government does not have the right to determine what constitutes marriage. Or doesnt. Marriage is a Religious institution. When you get "married" you are swearing before God, in the company of other fellow believers, that you will love, honor, ect ect.

At best, what gays have is a civil union. Unless the church they belong to allows for gay marriages.

But, most western religions do not allow for gay "marriage".

So, at best, its a civil union. Leave it at that. Be happy with that. Be grateful for that.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:55 AM

So, if you get maried in a courthouse, it's not really a marriage?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:06 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

No, its a civil union. The "marriage" part comes from whatever church you are under. Despite what might be said.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
No, its a civil union. The "marriage" part comes from whatever church you are under. Despite what might be said.

Now, is that your definition, or do you have backing? Looking into it a bit, I find nothing that says a court marraige is anything less than a marriage. And marriage itself is a legal agreement, not strictly a religious institution, so I really don't see where you're coming from here.

I just find it funny that an institution that was untill relatively recently an arranged pairing usually based on economic concerns (despite religious trappings attached) is now being defended solely as a religious institution.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:28 AM

WHODIED

I can't believe they're letting gay people marry.

We are seriously running out of subsets that we can discriminate against.

Holy Christ! What's next, a black president?

--WhoDied

_______________________

No candles? Well, I brought one. It's extra flamey.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:43 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

*sigh What EXACTLY is wrong with civil unions for gays? Why must they term it under marriage? Civil unions bestow the same rights as marriage.

Its just not called marriage, nor is is sanctioned by any church.

Its a good compromise.

The fact that they won't take that, and instead insist on forcing the issue, makes me skittish and a bit angry.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:53 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
*sigh What EXACTLY is wrong with civil unions for gays? Why must they term it under marriage? Civil unions bestow the same rights as marriage.

Why must Christians call their civil union marriage? What makes them so special? It's Jews that are Gods chosen people, only they should be allowed to marry, everyone else should be content with a civil union.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:58 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Its not a minority issue either...

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
*sigh What EXACTLY is wrong with civil unions for gays? Why must they term it under marriage? Civil unions bestow the same rights as marriage.

Its just not called marriage, nor is is sanctioned by any church.

Its a good compromise.

The fact that they won't take that, and instead insist on forcing the issue, makes me skittish and a bit angry.

And what EXACTLY is wrong with gays being married?

Why should they just "take that", instead of being allowed the same rights given to everyone else?

And why does it make you so angry?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:06 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Read my above posts...and "so" angry is an overstatement.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:07 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Its not a minority issue either...

No, because Christians aren't in the minority.

So why do Christians get to call it marriage, Jews were there first and they're Gods chosen people. Christians should be happy with a civil union, they have the same rights. There's nothing intrinsically religious about Marriage, it was around before organised religion, and if organised religion ever vanishes there'll still be marriage. Homosexuals have the same right to call it marriage as anyone else.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:09 AM

ELVISCHRIST

Okay, there ARE legal ramifications for using the term "marriage", "spouse", and "married"; those are NOT just religious terms or concepts.

And with your logic, you're essentially asking why black people can't just be happy with "separate but equal" treatment. Why? Because there's no such thing in reality; separate in point of fact becomes unequal. So it IS a minority issue.

For all your piety and pontification, I bet you change your tune when it comes time for divorce. Hey, the Bible says 'til death do you part, and let no man rend asunder, and all that good stuff. So let's outlaw divorce, too, since it's not religious to divorce your spouse.

Takin' Care of Business, Baby!

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Read my above posts...

I did. I remain unconvinced.

Your stance that marriage is soly a religious institution seems a bit faulty. I asked for your support for this view, and you ignored it. So, forgive me if I fail to find your argument compelling.

I see no reason whatsoever that gays people should not be allowed the same rights - period.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:14 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

What I can't figure out is how the state can overrule any particular religion. There are lots of religions, sects, branches that have no problem with gay marriage. If THEY are willing to conduct a religious ceremony what interest does the state have in in saying those marriages aren't legal ? (So long as the marriages are between consenting adults, that is.)

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:35 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
What I can't figure out is how the state can overrule any particular religion. There are lots of religions, sects, branches that have no problem with gay marriage. If THEY are willing to conduct a religious ceremony what interest does the state have in in saying those marriages aren't legal ? (So long as the marriages are between consenting adults, that is.)

Good question. Unfortunately, many states and the Feds have "Defense of Marriage" laws that define marriage as between one man and one woman, and refuse legal recognition of same-sex marriages performed in places where they are legal. So the gay couples getting married in California may file their State tax return as "Married filing Joint" but as far as the Feds are concerned, they're just two single people. Should be interesting for accountants and tax lawyers next filing season.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 9:07 AM

WHODIED

The only interest the state should have is if and how marriage affects tax collection. However, the Judeo-Christian voting block remains determined to force the government to interfere.

Just another example of conservative, big-government intrusion!

--WhoDied

_______________________

Oh, just your standard penance malediction is all.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Marriage is a religious institution.....how is it the governments business to define what can be a marriage or not?

Marriage is NOT a religious institution and hasn't been for a long long time. And even when it was, it wasn't for the purposes that you think it was. It was to ensure the rich were able to pass on there lands/etc to there children. Also, at that time, the commoners didn't get married. All that is very very recent.

Also, which religion? Because, there are many many religions that don't have an issue with this. Hell, there are many versions of Christianity that don't have a problem with it.

Please stop trying to shove your ideals down others throats.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:34 AM

PONYXPRESSINC

It is very cute and I am very happy for them.

My reaction to the debate above:

The most relevant definition I could find in the dictionary I had to hand (Encarta attached to word) is “a legally recognized relationship, established by a civil or religious ceremony, between two people who intend to live together as sexual and domestic partners”.

So as far as the dictionary is concerned a civil ceremony is a fine and dandy marriage and religious bodies do not have dibs on its use.

That aside I guess it’s a matter of perspective. I can imagine that from a religious standpoint a civil ceremony does not a marriage make.

However, as an atheist and a person wed in a civil service I personally find the suggestion that I can’t or shouldn't use the word “marriage” faintly insulting, the implication being that what I have is obviously not as good, less valid because it didn’t take place in front of a religious dignitary.

Only faintly insulted though, because when it comes to the crunch it doesn’t actually matter to me what it gets called. What matters in my godless life is the legal recognition of my union and the fact that in my opinion, who you say the words in front of isn’t really relevant, it’s that you mean them.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 12:06 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Amen !

From what I understand there is one invariant part to marriage which is the civil contract part. The religious portion is separate. Ministers, priests, and sea captains get the legal authority to make their ceremonies have the same legal standing as those of a judge. (By the power vested in me (by the state ...))

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 1:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Amen !

From what I understand there is one invariant part to marriage which is the civil contract part. The religious portion is separate. Ministers, priests, and sea captains get the legal authority to make their ceremonies have the same legal standing as those of a judge. (By the power vested in me (by the state ...))

Not where I'm from. Ministers, etc need to go through some class(es), etc provided by the state and pass before they have the legal authority to marry people. It makes sense because there are legal requirements that are needed in every ceremony. It's been a while so I can't remember all of them but there are three. One being that the person marrying the couple needs to ask, "If there is any reason why these two shouldn't be wed...". That has to be there since a person can't be married to multiple people, etc. And it needs to be explicitly stated that everyone present knows of no reason why it can't be done. It's the ~equivalent of the "The above is true..." statement on signed contracts.

One of the Marriage Commissioners we went to told us that he actually had performed several ceremonies with Priests as they didn't have permission from the state to marry people. The Priest would do his religious thing, and then the Marriage Commissioner would do his to make it legal.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 1:10 PM

Yup, and the REASON it needs to be called a marriage instead of something else is this:

One day, there's going to be a rich gay couple, and one of them is going to die, and in their will leave everything to his or her "spouse" - and them someone in the family is going to come forward and challenge the will, saying that the law only allows the estate to pass to the person's lawfully married spouse, and to prove that they'd need a MARRIAGE license, not a "civil union" license.

So you can say that they have the same rights, but sooner or later, it's going to come out that they DON'T have the same rights unless their unions are called by the same name.

If it's not a will, it will be a living will, a DNR, health benefits, or what have you. Anywhere a lawyer thinks they can make good case law, or another lawyer thinks they can save their client a buck or two, you'll have legal challenges to anything that isn't specifically called (and protected exactly the same as) a marriage.

It neither blackens my eye nor breaks my leg to have any two consenting adults enter into a marriage to each other. If two people can find one another and commit to a life of loving and respecting each other, who am I to say their love and commitment aren't as legitimate as mine?

To say that such marriages are destroying the institution of marriage is utter poppycock; conventional marriages have made quite a hash of the institution already! In the United States (that "Christian nation" we always hear about), fully FIFTY-ONE PERCENT of marriages end in divorce. In other words, the MAJORITY of such holy and consecrated unions are utter failures. Seems like religion has a really shitty track record of saying who should or shouldn't marry...

And why is it that many of those on the far right are on their second, third, or fourth wives? Don't they believe in the sanctity of marriage?

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 1:16 PM

Quote:
Not at all, my good Sir Kwick-O - according to my excitingly judgemental friends on the Religious Right, you and your good lady wife will merely burn in hell for all eternity, or happily ever after, whichever comes first.

This is my tongue, and this is my cheek...please note their proximity.

Wash: Tongue noted, cheek ditto. :)

Threatening atheists with hellfire, brimstone, and damnation is an awful lot like telling us that when we die, we're going to Easter Bunny Land, or Santa Claus-ville. It just doesn't compute.

Thanks for having a sense of humor about it all; it cheered ME up, at least. :)

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 2:06 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Finally!

At last they can care for ezch other and entrust their belongings, health, etc with each other.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:18 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Oh for fraks sake.....

I don't care that they lick carpet, or slip one in the back...

Marriage is a gorram religious institution. Period. Its not some social movement, its not some right for minorities...its a a religious belief.

Im not trying to shove it down anyones throat. YOU are trying to shove the idea that its NOT a religious institution down MY throat (and yes... I get the irony of what Im saying..)

No, if you are joined by a judge, it is NOT marriage...its a civil union.

Yes, I believe being gay is a lifestyle choice. I DON'T believe you are born gay. I think its a choice.

No, being gay is not like being born black, mexican, or whatever. Its a choice.

No, you should not get special treatment in this country because you are "different". God, I am so sick of every little pissant coming out of the woodwork claiming some "special" status.

"I deserve special treatment because X.Y.Z.." Frak off and man up. This country was not forged by little whiney bitches like you. Nor was it fought for so that little puss's could piss and moan about every little thing.

For fraks sake, stop making this country weaker by capitulating to every little minority that wants to whine about being under-represented.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:48 PM

Requiring EQUALITY is NOT demanding "special status".

And the only thing that I'm requiring of you is to acknowledge THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. Don't like that, then move to a country that doesn't have it!

Christ do you have a cock-eyed perception of reality.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:52 PM

WASHNWEAR

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yup, and the REASON it needs to be called a marriage instead of something else is this:

One day, there's going to be a rich gay couple, and one of them is going to die, and in their will leave everything to his or her "spouse" - and them someone in the family is going to come forward and challenge the will, saying that the law only allows the estate to pass to the person's lawfully married spouse, and to prove that they'd need a MARRIAGE license, not a "civil union" license.

So you can say that they have the same rights, but sooner or later, it's going to come out that they DON'T have the same rights unless their unions are called by the same name.

If it's not a will, it will be a living will, a DNR, health benefits, or what have you. Anywhere a lawyer thinks they can make good case law, or another lawyer thinks they can save their client a buck or two, you'll have legal challenges to anything that isn't specifically called (and protected exactly the same as) a marriage.

It neither blackens my eye nor breaks my leg to have any two consenting adults enter into a marriage to each other. If two people can find one another and commit to a life of loving and respecting each other, who am I to say their love and commitment aren't as legitimate as mine?

To say that such marriages are destroying the institution of marriage is utter poppycock; conventional marriages have made quite a hash of the institution already! In the United States (that "Christian nation" we always hear about), fully FIFTY-ONE PERCENT of marriages end in divorce. In other words, the MAJORITY of such holy and consecrated unions are utter failures. Seems like religion has a really shitty track record of saying who should or shouldn't marry...

And why is it that many of those on the far right are on their second, third, or fourth wives? Don't they believe in the sanctity of marriage?

Damn right! Especially that part about the blackened eye and the broken leg - well put. This seems to me a silly and spiteful way of basically giving sh*t to a segment of society and its constituents, like we don't have enough ways of doing that already. And "Bob" knows (if he knows anything), what this country needs is another source of tension and ill will. I can't see any rational reason for it.

It was SO not in the best interests of the common good when we got here!

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:01 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"No, if you are joined by a judge, it is NOT marriage...its a civil union."

So, when a couple goes to a JP they don't get a 'marriage license' they get a 'civil union' license ? Puuhhhleeese.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:10 PM

Quote:
For fraks sake, stop making this country weaker by capitulating to every little minority that wants to whine about being under-represented.

You mean like the Republicans capitulating to the evangelicals? Man, talk about a whiney bunch of little bitches!

Quote:

Damn right! Especially that part about the blackened eye and the broken leg - well put.

Thank you for that, but I'm just the messenger, not the writer. If it was well put, then all credit goes to that great writer Thomas Jefferson, whom I cribbed from and paraphrased.

Quote:
Thomas Jefferson wrote:

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
- Notes on Virginia, 1782

If you're gonna steal, steal from the best!

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Oh for fraks sake.....

Marriage is a gorram religious institution. Period. Its not some social movement, its not some right for minorities...its a a religious belief.

So you're saying that in countries that don't recognize religion, there's no such thing as marriage?

Quote:

No, if you are joined by a judge, it is NOT marriage...its a civil union.

I assume you've got case law to prove that point? Something maybe a little bit stronger than "because I said so"?

Quote:

Yes, I believe being gay is a lifestyle choice. I DON'T believe you are born gay. I think its a choice.

Ah, of course - you make a CHOICE to be attracted to who you're attracted to. Tell me, is being straight a lifestyle choice? I mean, if you were straight, and someone told you you needed to CHOOSE to be gay, would that make it instantly desirable to you?

Me neither. You are what you are. There's no scenario where I'm going to say, "Gee, I really love my wife, but that guy's butt is just SOOOOO hot I have to dump her for him."

Quote:

No, you should not get special treatment in this country because you are "different". God, I am so sick of every little pissant coming out of the woodwork claiming some "special" status.

Good. No more "special treatment" for ANYBODY in this country. No more handicapped accommodations (Man up and walk it off. The exercise might do your dead legs some good!), no more free donuts for cops, no more "special treatment" for veterans (things like lifetime healthcare, GI Bill, special consideration for civil service jobs, special consideration for college admittance, etc.), no more special treatment for faith-based initiatives, no more special treatment for Big Business, no more special treatment for Big Oil, no special treatment for Big Pharma and Big Medicine, no special treatment in the form of student loans (get a job and pay for your own education, slacker!), no special treatment for farmers (Adios, crop subsidies! Buenos dias, dustbowl!), no more special treatment for investment banks who go belly up and expect a government bail-out, no more special treatment for CEOs (if your workers can live on $5.85 an hour, so can you, Mr. Executive), no more special treatment for Administration criminals (sorry, Mr. Libby; you're going to have to serve the entire sentence...), no more special treatment for churches (hey, if you're going to run it like a business, we're going to tax you like one)... and the list goes on...

Sign me up! I'm sick of all those little puss's whining about being different, too!

[By the way, before I get flamed for that rant, bear in mind that it is SATIRE. I'm simply illuminating some of the "special" people who get special treatment under our current system.]

Quote:
Frak off and man up. This country was not forged by little whiney bitches like you.

Yes, it was formed by little whiney bitches who simply didn't want to pay their taxes to a government that didn't represent their interests in any way, shape, or form. It sounds so much more manly when you put it that way...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:49 PM

Also, no special treatment for "interrogators" (Put down that water bucket and untie that man, Agent Smith), no more special treatment for small businesses, large businesses, or ANY business, no more special treatment for airline passengers (Would you step over here, Mr. Patel? We just have a few questions for you...), no more special treatment for intelligence analysts (Of COURSE you don't need a warrant for that, Sir! By all means, please listen to whatever phone calls you want to...), no more special treatment for corporate criminals (Well, you DID steal five billion dollars from your shareholders, but since it's a VICTIMLESS crime, I'm just going to give you probation... It's not like you robbed a bank or sold crack...)

Are we on the same page?

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:55 PM

PIRATECAT

Gays had it made now they've screwed themselves right into a legal relationship. Nothing last forever not even cornholen for free.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:07 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

As my co-worker said - they deserve the right to be just as unhappy in marriage as everyone else.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:15 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Good. No more "special treatment" for ANYBODY in this country. No more handicapped accommodations (Man up and walk it off. The exercise might do your dead legs some good!), no more free donuts for cops, no more "special treatment" for veterans (things like lifetime healthcare, GI Bill, special consideration for civil service jobs, special consideration for college admittance, etc.), no more special treatment for faith-based initiatives, no more special treatment for Big Business, no more special treatment for Big Oil, no special treatment for Big Pharma and Big Medicine, no special treatment in the form of student loans (get a job and pay for your own education, slacker!), no special treatment for farmers (Adios, crop subsidies! Buenos dias, dustbowl!), no more special treatment for investment banks who go belly up and expect a government bail-out, no more special treatment for CEOs (if your workers can live on $5.85 an hour, so can you, Mr. Executive), no more special treatment for Administration criminals (sorry, Mr. Libby; you're going to have to serve the entire sentence...), no more special treatment for churches (hey, if you're going to run it like a business, we're going to tax you like one)... and the list goes on...

I agree that there shouldn't be any special treatment for anyone. (Except the part of the handicapped. I'm not heartless, and watching someone try and crip their way into a store is neither funny nor fun.)

My point (and I did get off on a rant before) is more with the term/word "marriage". Gays cannot be "married" UNLESS the church they congregate with allows it. Otherwise, its a civil union...with all the rights and benefits of a married couple.

Believe it or not, I'm a libertarian. I have no problem with gay unions, so long as they don't go shoving it down my throat.

If you are gay, whoopty-do. Just don't go pushing your shit on me. Don't tell me I have to accept it (or reject it) because of XYZ.

I don't care. Its not my business to judge. However, when you take away something of mine that I hold dear (and yes I hold MARRIAGE dear) THEN I have a problem.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:30 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

How does having two people of the same sex marrying take away your marriage ??

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:56 PM

Quote:
Nothing last forever not even cornholen for free.

Yeah, even the Catholic Church has to pay for it now... But it usually only costs 'em two Snickers and a lollipop. ;)

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
How does having two people of the same sex marrying take away your marriage ??

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

That's the part I can't figure out - why is it that if gays can marry, suddenly I can't be married anymore? How does it diminish my love for my wife or my commitment to her?

If gay people can legally commit to their love for one another, how does that lessen your love for your spouse (legally or spiritually), or your love for your Church, or your God's love for you? Is there not enough love to go around, and we need to hoard it to keep it away from others?

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:41 PM

@Wulfenstar:

You keep bringing up your OPINION as if it were reality for everyone. Point of fact, this is not so. In fact, marriage, by any modern definition, does NOT preclude same sex marriage. In fact, it has been generalised to "two people." You not liking this fact doesn't make it go away.

My wife and I are married. We may have been married by a Marriage Commissioner, but our MARRIAGE is recognised as a legal MARRIAGE.

Also, how exactly does the possibility of gays being able to get married "go shoving it down [ your ] throat." Do you think that they will force you to be married to someone of the same sex because you technically could (assuming you live where it's recognised)? How exactly does them being able to get married take marriage away from you?

I'll also mention that there is a really big problem here. You see, we keep bringing up points and new points and you just keep bringing up the same tired flawed rhetoric. Care to say something new?

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:43 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

My dollars don't say "In Allah we trust" or "In Buddha we trust" or any such. Since the gubment has subjected to Christianity, thems the laws and Commandments what should be followed.

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Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:26 AM