Screw 'em if they hate us by 6ixStringJack

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I thought I've been pellucidly clear from the start that most of our interventions and our "foreign aid" support "our" corporate interests abroad. I can point to whole swaths of the globe where we've either invaded and installed a tyrant, engineered a coup, or supported a resident dictator just so we could get our bananas (Honduras), copper (Allende overthrown by Pinochet), oil (too many to name, start with Tran), shipping lanes (Panama), diamonds, or what-have-you.

So, to paraphrase, "SignyM, can you even envision for a moment a LITTLE bit of air between "the United States" and "capitalism"? Or are they synonymous in your mind?"

Apparently they are, since it's never, "the capitalists did this" and always "We (the US) did this". Capitalism, in your worldview, can do no good, and since capitalism and the US are the same to you, the US can do no good either.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, June 16, 2008 3:56 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
I've never quite understood why Americans think themselves the freest nation on the planet. It's probably the Netherlands or another small European country - their citizens are trusted to be free and take responsibility for their own lives and there's no phony war on drugs nor religious masses oppressing anyone who differs from Judeo-Christian paths.

You're not even the freest nation in North America.

Yep, Hitler really loved that whole freedom thing....

Stupidest comment EVAR... but the day's still young. I'm sure you can top it.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Monday, June 16, 2008 4:22 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Dr. Ron Paul quotes:

"Having federal officials, whether judges, bureaucrats, or congressmen, impose a new definition of marriage on the people is an act of social engineering profoundly hostile to liberty."

"Everyone assumes America must play the leading role in crafting some settlement or compromise between the Israelis and the Palestinians. But Jefferson, Madison, and Washington explicitly warned against involving ourselves in foreign conflicts."

"I am absolutely opposed to a national ID card. This is a total contradiction of what a free society is all about. The purpose of government is to protect the secrecy and the privacy of all individuals, not the secrecy of government. We don't need a national ID card."

"Our country's founders cherished liberty, not democracy."

"The obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people."

"You wanna get rid of drug crime in this country? Fine, let's just get rid of all the drug laws."

Amen.

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Monday, June 16, 2008 4:56 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Apparently they are, since it's never, "the capitalists did this" and always "We (the US) did this". Capitalism, in your worldview, can do no good, and since capitalism and the US are the same to you, the US can do no good either.

I don't know why you insist on putting words in my mouth. The United States has a huge capacity for good, and at times we actually exercise it. Rebuilding Japan and Germany was to our vast credit. So was the New Deal. The environmental movement was born here. And so was democracy.

But we've become hostage to the desires of large corporations and monopolies. Our entire foreign policy is all about conquest. We have troops everywhere they don't need to be. And sooner rather than later, our capacity for compassion, fairness, and honesty will be beaten down under the whip of raw, unbounded greed. If you present the Bill of Rights as a current law about to be passed, most people think it's "too liberal". But almost anyone will defend "capitalism" (yet another concept they don't understand) at the drop of a hat. They're like you: At a gut level they'll defend corporations first, religion second, and a democracy maybe a distant third.

Their view... YOUR view... of America is both insular and myopic. For the past 60 years or so we have been THE dominant economic and military power. We vastly changed the political and economic landscapes of over a hundred nations... mostly to their detriment.... without ever once really noticing what we did. It was all about us and always about us: What our corporations wanted, and what we could be induced to fear. I'm simply trying to open up space between corporate- America other so that we can engage self-reflection, and hopefully some self-preservation.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Monday, June 16, 2008 5:58 AM

SIMONWHO

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
I've never quite understood why Americans think themselves the freest nation on the planet. It's probably the Netherlands or another small European country - their citizens are trusted to be free and take responsibility for their own lives and there's no phony war on drugs nor religious masses oppressing anyone who differs from Judeo-Christian paths.

You're not even the freest nation in North America.

Yep, Hitler really loved that whole freedom thing....

Not quite sure what you mean by that. Could you explain a bit further?

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Monday, June 16, 2008 6:01 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:

Not quite sure what you mean by that. Could you explain a bit further?

Small European countries produce guys like Hitler- dat s**t don't fly here in the good ole' U S of A.

*I'mguessin'isall

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Monday, June 16, 2008 7:12 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Apparently they are, since it's never, "the capitalists did this" and always "We (the US) did this". Capitalism, in your worldview, can do no good, and since capitalism and the US are the same to you, the US can do no good either.

So...you were captain of your Strawman team in High School...?

Heh, Chrisisall

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Monday, June 16, 2008 9:12 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I don't know why you insist on putting words in my mouth.

Because they're your words.

"They're jealous of our long work hours, our high crime rate, our homelessness, our boob of a President, our monopolism, our lack of health-care. And what they're REALLY jealous of is our system of government, which is freely selected by a corrupted and fraudulent voting system."

"The same way we can have our military bootprint all over the world, our soldiers in many countries and yet STILL feel like we're "being attacked"."

"I can point to whole swaths of the globe where we've either invaded and installed a tyrant, engineered a coup, or supported a resident dictator just so we could get our bananas (Honduras), copper (Allende overthrown by Pinochet), oil (too many to name, start with Tran), shipping lanes (Panama), diamonds, or what-have-you."

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, June 16, 2008 9:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Because they're your words.

"They're jealous of our long work hours, our high crime rate, our homelessness, our boob of a President, our monopolism, our lack of health-care. And what they're REALLY jealous of is our system of government, which is freely selected by a corrupted and fraudulent voting system."

"The same way we can have our military bootprint all over the world, our soldiers in many countries and yet STILL feel like we're "being attacked"."

"I can point to whole swaths of the globe where we've either invaded and installed a tyrant, engineered a coup, or supported a resident dictator just so we could get our bananas (Honduras), copper (Allende overthrown by Pinochet), oil (too many to name, start with Tran), shipping lanes (Panama), diamonds, or what-have-you."

Is any of that factually incorrect?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, June 16, 2008 11:26 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

That's the problem when talking about collectives. There really is no such thing as "we" in America, since the USA is home to groups with irrevocably conflicting interests. So would you feel better if I used "The rich and powerful of United States" shortened to RAPUSA, and use "we", "us" and "ours" to represent the 99.9% who're along for the ride?

So, how's this?

"They're jealous of our long work hours, our high crime rate, our homelessness, our boob of a President, our monopolism, our lack of health-care. And what they're REALLY jealous of is our system of government, which is freely selected by a corrupted and fraudulent voting system."

"The same way the RAPUSA have our military bootprint all over the world, our soldiers in many countries and yet STILL promote the idea that we're "being attacked"."

"I can point to whole swaths of the globe where the RAPUSA have either invaded and installed a tyrant, engineered a coup, or supported a resident dictator just so they could get their bananas (Honduras), copper (Allende overthrown by Pinochet), oil (too many to name, start with Iran), shipping lanes (Panama), diamonds, or what-have-you cheaply, and make huge profits."

There! Now that I've gotten rid of that artificial unity, that's clearer, I think!

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Monday, June 16, 2008 11:32 AM

As Citizen asked, is any of it factually incorrect? If it's not, then how is it "hating America" to say it out loud?

I *DO* think America is a pretty damn good country, but I also think we can do a helluva lot better, and it's not unpatriotic to appeal to our better angels and to hold out hope.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Monday, June 16, 2008 11:37 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

6-ix

What have you been smoking ? Seriously. They don't hate us, least of all for the reasons you say they do. They've cut loose and cut the US out of the world's doings. We're less valuable or meaningful to them than last week's news.

***************************************************************
That's why gas is 3.00 Euros/ gal in the good ol' US of A - 'cause the rest of the world is SOOooooo over the US dollar. Also pretty much over what the US thinks, what the US wants, how the US is doing ...

... and ehh, realistically, what are we going to do about it ? Cry ? Pout ? Give baby Bush his nuclear tantrum ?

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Monday, June 16, 2008 12:32 PM

WHODIED

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
They've cut loose and cut the US out of the world's doings. We're less valuable or meaningful to them than last week's news.

I hope your right, and that we take this opportunity to put our house in order.

I, like most, love my country, but like many, am learning to loathe my government. I'm not just talking Bush, but the whole corrupt lot.

What worries me is, while it was the Goths who sacked Rome, it was the slaves who opened the gates.

--WhoDied

_______________________

I'm supposed to deliver you to the master now.
There's this whole deal where I get to be immortal. You cool with that?

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Monday, June 16, 2008 1:00 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

No matter what, we still really need to put our house in order.

BTW there will always be a few crazies - like the oddball yelling and swinging his arm as he walks down the street - so that's not to say the US is perfectly immune. And it never will be, and no other country ever will be, either. Perfect safety is a foolish fantasy. But there's no return when you sink your resources into hate. So it's just not worth it to anyone else.

If anything what the US has to worry about is the creditor's rush. If it looks like the US is going to go under economically, the country first in line to collect the US debt will be the best off. The Chinese are already buying US industries (not just businesses - industries) with the US dollars they loaned to us so we could buy their goods.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Monday, June 16, 2008 3:49 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Is any of that factually incorrect?

Some is debatable, and some may be true but is not necessarily bad.

Long work hours? Any evidence that folk don't want to work more to make more money? Is that a bad thing?

Crime rate? Some crimes have a higher rate here and some lower. Fraud and embezzelment are higher in many nations. Total crimes are higher in Finland, Denmark and the U.K.

Homelessness? Hard to say, since there's no consistant measurement. Nationmaster says 3 million in the EU and 750 thousand in the US.

Boob of a president? Personal opinion.

Lack of health care? U.S. spends more of it's GDP, percentage-wise, on healthcare than any other country. Twice as much as the U.K. which seems, from repeated stories on BBC, to be having problems with National Health

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, June 16, 2008 3:54 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
As Citizen asked, is any of it factually incorrect? If it's not, then how is it "hating America" to say it out loud?

See above. I don't have a problem with pointing out problems. I do have a problem with running out a litany of supposed evils America has done any time anyone suggests that we're not the worst country in the world. Look at the first two posts in this thread, and tell me that's not what SignyM is doing. Look at any post where someone suggests that the U.S. is doing something right and see if SignyM doesn't provide her same list.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, June 16, 2008 4:38 PM

Quote:
I do have a problem with running out a litany of supposed evils America has done any time anyone suggests that we're not the worst country in the world. Look at the first two posts in this thread, and tell me that's not what SignyM is doing.

I'd say there's quite a gap between listing some of our misdeeds and suggesting that we're "the worst country in the world". That's kind of like saying Shaq is a crap basketball player just because he can't make a free throw. Pointing out our failings isn't saying we're horrible; it's simply saying we can, and need to, do better.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Monday, June 16, 2008 5:12 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Well, Geezer, let's look at facts then -- shall we ?

Happiest people ? Icelanders ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/18/iceland) or Danes ( http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=4086092&page=1). The US ranks about 23 ( http://www2.le.ac.uk/ebulletin/news/press-releases/2000-2009/2006/07/n
particle.2006-07-28.2448323827).

Longest lived ? Japan, followed by Switzerland, Iceland, Sweden, Spain ... the US ranked 17th of 33 ... ( http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE1DF1E31F934A35757C
0A966958260)

Best health system performance (ranked by WHO) France. The US was 37th ( http://www.ilmaternal.org/MIMS/39).

Percentage of births to young women under 20 - Denmark is the lowest with 1.3, Sweden 1.6, Italy and the Netherlands tied at 1.7, France and Slovenia tied at 2.0, while the US is 11 topped only by Romania (Romania ! for god's sake) at 13.5 ( http://www.ilmaternal.org/MIMS/39).

Home ownership percentage ? Well, that winner would be Portugal at 85%. Rounding out the top 5 are Canada 82%, Norway 77% and Spain 77% and Belgium 71% ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_living_in_the_United_States).

How about freedom of the press ? Finland is #1. The US is 31st, far behind Latvia, the Czech Republic, or Slovenia ( http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=8247).

What about education level ? Tiny Latvia has a 50.77 % college graduate population, Lithuania 47.31, Australia 47.12, Taiwan (2003) 43.79, Portugal 41.59, United Kingdom (2003) 39.66 ... and skipping down to 14th place comes the US at 33.91
( http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind06/append/c2/at02-37.xls).

So how about finding something the US can win !

Percent of uninsured ? Well, in that case the US WINS ! In percentage terms (2006, but it's higher now) roughly 17% of the US was uninsured ( http://www.aha.org/aha/trendwatch/chartbook/2008/08chart1-15.ppt). The others are close to zero.

Percent in poverty ? The US wins AGAIN ! In 2004 the total US poverty rate was 17%, second was Australia 14.3%, third was Italy 12.7% - at the bottom of the list Sweden was 6.5%, Norway 6.4% and Finland 5.4% ( http://www.epi.org/books/swa2004/news/swafacts_international.pdf).

Throwing money at corporate healthcare ! Why, the US has hit another winner ! Far outstripping every modern country in per capita spending the US shows how little can be gained for so much money ! http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2008/01/odd-chart-of-th.html

How about murder rates ? At 5.7 / 100,000 the US is easily 40% higher than the next developed nation, Spain at 3.35 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate).

***************************************************************
Yes, while the US wins in very few categories, the ones it does win in are important and shouldn't be overlooked. Once again, you can be proud to say: the US IS NUMBER ONE !

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Monday, June 16, 2008 8:02 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Long work hours? Any evidence that folk don't want to work more to make more money? Is that a bad thing?

Yeah,how about the lady who told Bush that she was working three jobs and couldn't break even?

Quote:
Crime rate? Some crimes have a higher rate here and some lower. Fraud and embezzelment are higher in many nations. Total crimes are higher in Finland, Denmark and the U.K.

Oh yeah, those are the really scary crimes

Quote:
Homelessness? Hard to say, since there's no consistant measurement. Nationmaster says 3 million in the EU and 750 thousand in the US.

The best estimate for the USA appears to be about 3.5 million www.nationalhomeless.org/publications/facts/How_Many.pdf
There is, as you say, no unified measure across the EU of homelessness, but they include living in extreme crowding or in unconventional habitation (eg mobile homes) in their definition of homelessness as well as "sleeping rough". http://feantsa.horus.be/code/EN/pg.asp?Page=882 Perhaps figures will be made available this year.

Quote:
Boob of a president? Personal opinion.

Which is pretty much what non_Americans think of Bush.So, of course they're not jealous of us because of our President!

Quote:
Lack of health care? U.S. spends more of it's GDP, percentage-wise, on healthcare than any other country. Twice as much as the U.K. which seems, from repeated stories on BBC, to be having problems with National Health

Yeah, too bad it doesn't get us as much actual health care as other nations get.

Quote:
I don't have a problem with pointing out problems. I do have a problem with running out a litany of supposed evils America has done any time anyone suggests that we're not the worst country in the world.

So now you're putting words in 6ix's mouth? That's not exactly what he said, was it?

So, strawman much, do ya?

Yanno, I'm really worried about the path we're on. I really think that we're at a turning point in American history. The dollar is about to become a second-tier currency, oil is at a record high, our budget is busted, China is roaring ahead, and we're at an ecological tipping point. Meanwhile, we've got a three trillion-dollar anchor around our necks. (I'm speaking of the 99.9% "we".)
Really, if we don't address these problems with some urgency things are going to get really tough for us. And given that most of the world resents us... if not outright hates us... they'll be happy to watch us swirl down the drain.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Monday, June 16, 2008 9:20 PM

RIGHTEOUS9

One thing Geezer,

we should not be in the business of maintaining out status as not the worst country in the world. We should be striving to be the best country in the world, and for God's sake, it really doesn't even matter if there are people who have nothing good to say about America,

people who focus on them being "anti american" are just plain deflecting from the real issue, which is ONLY - "are these criticisms valid?"

It does our nation a grave diservice in my opinion, to avoid asking that question, and instead find contentedness in untested mantras like
"we're still the best country in the world,"

or worse, to find personal appeasement in lowball comparissons, like, "yeah? well what about Cuba!"

and worse still, to demonize those who criticize r nation as if that could make the very criticisms untrustworthy acts of anti-american terrorism.

The American spirit should sound like this. "We're not #1 in upward mobility? let's get on that then!"

Instead its always a fight to even get people to examine the basic facts of these issues.

I personally have never heard Sygm say anythng that I felt was unpatriotic, in fact quite the contrary,

but you know, it's America, and we even have a right to hate the country we live in, and nobody can browbeat people into liking it, they can merely make it a better place, further beyond reproach, where critics are free to exist but look rather silly, when they start talking

Sadly, that isn't the country we live in right now.

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Monday, June 16, 2008 10:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Long work hours? Any evidence that folk don't want to work more to make more money? Is that a bad thing?

Since when does the average person want too work longer? I've seen the comparative differences in treatment of workers in the US, here and other places, and really comparatively the US treats employees rights with distaste, like treating employees like Human beings has the faintest whiff of communism?

Quote:
Crime rate? Some crimes have a higher rate here and some lower. Fraud and embezzelment are higher in many nations. Total crimes are higher in Finland, Denmark and the U.K.

Types of crimes though, most of the crime in the UK was petty, where as the US was way out in front with violent Crime, when we went over this in a previous thread. If I had to be the victim of crime I'd rather have my car keyed a couple of times than be stabbed or shot.

Quote:
Lack of health care? U.S. spends more of it's GDP, percentage-wise, on healthcare than any other country. Twice as much as the U.K. which seems, from repeated stories on BBC, to be having problems with National Health

Yeah, but then from continued stories in the US media it seems the US is having massive problems too. Such as kids dying of toothache because they have no access to health care. The accusation tends to be that the US spends the most on healthcare, but receives less coverage and lower quality than other places, which is why people say private only healthcare is bad. I find stories such as when my Girlfriend had to stop seeking tests, not treatment, tests, because she couldn't afford any more, despite having and paying insurance, disgusting, geezer. Essentially she was denied treatment because she wasn't rich enough, yet the US healthcare system receives more money than any other Geezer, so what gives? Is saying I find that disgusting Anti-American?

For Signym to spend most of his time bitching about what's wrong with the US, doesn't make him anti American. Arguably a glass half empty kind of guy, but it doesn't tend to be the 'glass is full ignore reality' people that top the glass up, eh.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 1:25 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
It does our nation a grave diservice in my opinion, to avoid asking that question, and instead find contentedness in untested mantras like
"we're still the best country in the world,"

True. I've never said we are. However, folks who have a pre-programmed script of negatives any time anyone says anything positive about the US (see Rue, SignyM, and Citizen's latest posts for an example) also do our nation a disservice by being so negative that there's no possibility of discussion about fixes other than buying whatever they're selling 100%.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 1:44 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Thanks Rue, Citizen, and SignyM for proving my point. Gosh, the US isn't number one in all categories, and maybe not so great in some. You could cherry-pick less than #1 stats for any country, and probably find some sort of #1 for each one as well. Overall, I just can't see it as gloomy as you constantly portray, or see all the world's ills as America's fault.

I got no idea why you're on such a doom and gloom kick. I just get tired of it sometimes.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 1:55 AM

I guess some people are too stupid to understand what's being said to them. Just because someone isn't a violent nationalist who believes every non American is sub human and deserves to die like you do, doesn't mean they're anti-American. But thanks for proving my point that you're a violent nationalist, a liar and immoral troll.

I've got no idea why you hate non-Americans so much, I just get tired of it sometimes.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:36 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Geezer, I know it's a bummer to have your comfortable life intruded on, but the reality is that most people in the USA are hurting right now and only the very top 0.01% benefit from the status quo.

When we were the biggest (in fact, the only) undamaged industrial nation left standing after WWII we (the people) could afford to be lax about our interests because the RAPUSA were busy skinning the hides of everyone else (Germany and Japan excepted). But we're at a stage where there is no more "there" to exploit and the wealthy would just as happily flush us down the drain for a few more years of profit, and in fact have been busy doing so for the past 15-20 years. It's just now the pain is coming home for real

Just unplug that probe from the base of your skull for a moment, and think about what THIS NATION needs right now. Not that top 0.01% which you conflate with "the USA" but Joe and Jane Anyone. When I have more time, I'll tell you what I think but right now I have to get back to work.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:58 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Geezer

Why don't you cherry pick some #1 stats for us and show us how great the US is for the vast majority of people who live here. Do some homework, for a change, and address the topic instead of indulging in your usual ad hominems, attempted debate derailing, straw-man arguments, and topic switching.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:41 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
But thanks for proving my point that you're a violent nationalist, a liar and immoral troll.

I've got no idea why you hate non-Americans so much, I just get tired of it sometimes.

Examples of me being a violent nationalist or hating non-Americans would be nice. Betcha can't find any.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Examples of me being a violent nationalist or hating non-Americans would be nice. Betcha can't find any.

Examples of me saying everything in the world is America's fault would be nice, betcha can't find any.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:48 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer, I know it's a bummer to have your comfortable life intruded on, but the reality is that most people in the USA are hurting right now and only the very top 0.01% benefit from the status quo.

I sure don't hang out with the top 0.01%, and the folks I know - family, friends, etc. - are doing fine. No doubt some people are hurting, but I doubt "most" are.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:50 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Examples of me saying everything in the world is America's fault would be nice, betcha can't find any.

Well OK, the majority of things.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Well OK, the majority of things.

Well Ok, you hate the majority of non-Americans.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 9:08 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"... or at least has never mentioned a positive ... never have a positive thing to say about the country ... add nothing positive to a search for solutions to the problems ..."

Why Geezer :bats eyelashes: you would be describing ... ... ... YOU !

I asked for one, just one cherry-picked stat that shows how great the US is to live in. And it seems you just can't find anything nice to say.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 9:17 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I sure don't hang out with the top 0.01%, and the folks I know - family, friends, etc. - are doing fine. No doubt some people are hurting, but I doubt "most" are.

*Geezer makes sure the jack in the base of his skull is firmly installed.*

It's easy to think everyhting is fine if you plug your ears, shut your eyes tight and hum the Star Spangled Banner loudly, but all you're doing right now is demonstrating to everyone on the board how disconnected you are from reality.

Now I know YOU'RE not going to read this, but others will so here are the facts:

Consumer Confidence in America is now -34 Down 7 points from -27 in late January
Only 17% of Americans rate the American economy as excellent or good, which is down 10% from late January. In contrast, over four-fifths of Americans, 83% (up 10%), rate the American economy as not good or poor.
www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2008/737/

US Tax Rebates Not Improving Consumer Confidence 43% view the economy as "poor" whether they've gotten a rebate or not.
www.gallup.com/poll/107449/US-Tax-Rebates-Improving-Consumer-Confidenc
e.aspx

Families have doubled their spending on gasoline from 2001 to 2007 (measured in 2001 dollars)... Median family income in real dollars is, meanwhile, slightly lower now than it was in 2001.
www.americanprogress.org/issues/2008/05/up_away.html

Now, here's the kicker... we haven't even begun to pay off our war debt!
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 10:01 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Lunch time!

What I have to say is actually similar to 6ix. But I have no intention of repairing damage just so the power structure can go comfortably ignoring us peons who somehow continue to “make it work” despite the ever-tightening squeeze. F*ck no.

The FIRST thing I think we need to do is recognize that we have more in common with the Honduran shirt-maker than we do with Sam Walton or Bill Gates. Once we recognize that, we’ll stop trying so hard to export our brand of rapacious monopolism. So, specifically…

We need to get our individual and governmental finances in order. Because our government priorities are so out-of-whack it’s almost impossible to tackle individual finances until the government finances are taken care of.
First:
1) Get out of Iraq NOW I know that Iraq needs rebuilding and needs to be decentralized, and I know that we busted it so we should fix it but the reality is we can’t. We’re tapped out. Since both the EU and China have an interest in seeing Iraq start to pump oil, they should be able to pitch in and help. They probably would, if they knew we were serious about leaving.

2) W/draw our troops from the several hundred or so meaningless installations where they currently reside, like Okinawa and Germany. Do we really HAVE to be everywhere in the world like Big Brother?

3)Stop meddling in foreign governments because we think they’re some sort of “-ist” or another. I know its tough to let go of that security blanket, but our REAL interests should be prosperity, transparency, empowerment, education, and stability. It’s the opposite- poverty, secrecy, tyranny, ignorance and riot- that are our REAL enemies.

4)Raise income tax rates on the top 1% to 40%. (It’s nominally 38% now, but the ultra-wealthy are only taxed at 33% due to various loopholes, while the moderately wealthy actually pay the full 38%).

5)Close corporate tax loopholes.

6)Eliminate corporate personhood, and eliminate their “right” to privacy and “free speech”. Free speech should be exactly that: FREE. The minute you pay someone, it becomes advertising and should have the same truth-in-advert requirements as any other advert.

7)Eliminate pork-barrel legislation. We have plenty of REAL work to do without making shit up.

8)Provide government-funded, single-payer universal health care. Health care is a big drain on our economy; our manufacturing is less competitive because we’re allowing a single segment of the economy (insurances) to bleed everyone else dry.

9)Raise the Federal minimum wage to something that could actually support a person. The reason WHY some people are so strapped is because they simply don’t have enough money.

10)At the same time, conduct an anti-consumption campaign. People should be able to make enough money working to provide for the basics: Food, housing, transportation. People DON”T need big-screen TVs, the latest iPhone, or expensive cars if they can’t afford ‘em. Somewhere, that idea has gotten lost. A wealthy lifestyle is not a birthright.

11)Allow US labor unions to support labor unions abroad, and duck out NAFTA, CAFTA, and GATT.

12) Start healing our inner cities with jobs and good schools. Many people in the inner cities are growing up with PTSD because of household and neighborhood violence.

13) Decriminalize many drugs, end the so-called "War on drugs" and make enough money avilable to provide rehab for everyone who wants it, and decent mental health services for the vets (and other lunatics) who roam our streets.

14) Get serious about securing our borders. There's no reason why WE have to serve as the overflow and relief valve for nations that are corrupt and impoverished.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 1:26 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Still waiting for Geezer to have one positive thing to say about the US (that's fairly modern, saying it doesn't have slavery is cheating). Failing that, to come up with a positive solution to a problem.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 1:41 PM

Well, in Geezer's defense, we ARE Number One in at least one thing: Military Spending!

Quote:

US military spending accounts for 48 percent, or almost half, of the world’s total military spending
US military spending is more than the next 46 highest spending countries in the world combined
US military spending is 5.8 times more than China, 10.2 times more than Russia, and 98.6 times more than Iran.
US military spending is almost 55 times the spending on the six “rogue” states (Cuba, Iran, Libya, North Korea, Sudan and Syria)

Source:
http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp

Of course, we're also Number One in both numbers of people in prison and percentage of our population in prison.

And we're Number One is number of prisoners to be executed.

Hey, we're really looking good! Why y'all gotta be all negative about stuff? ;)

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 1:50 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Well, drat-doodly-dah my negativity, then.

GO USA !!!!

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, June 20, 2008 2:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by WhoDied:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
They've cut loose and cut the US out of the world's doings. We're less valuable or meaningful to them than last week's news.

I hope your right, and that we take this opportunity to put our house in order.

I, like most, love my country, but like many, am learning to loathe my government. I'm not just talking Bush, but the whole corrupt lot.

What worries me is, while it was the Goths who sacked Rome, it was the slaves who opened the gates.

--WhoDied

_______________________

I'm supposed to deliver you to the master now.
There's this whole deal where I get to be immortal. You cool with that?

That's my stance on things and it has been since the beginning I've been here Signy. The only difference is that I don't believe it when you say it. Every word out of your mouth sounds like you feel guilty for living here and you're ashamed of being American.

All I'm trying to say is that it is possible to REALLY love your country and the privelages you were born into and also have major problems with the Status Quo. And to take that the logical step further get off our collective fat asses and do something about it. Anything that has happened in our lives is not anything that our founding fathers hadn't thought of before and did their damndest to structure a government which couldn't do them.

If we let it happen, we deserve what we get. But America bashing everyday is not the answer. I love my country. I know it's flawed, and if it weren't, it would be heaven and I probably wouldn't belong here anyways. But if we don't stand up and be counted and start making changes then what is our worth, really?

And I don't mean by getting our fat asses up long enough on our free time to vote either. Voting is has become the last desperate attempt to have some control in the lives of impotent men.

Fuck the ballot box. Stand and deliver.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, June 20, 2008 2:55 AM

KHYRON

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
And I don't mean by getting our fat asses up long enough on our free time to vote either. Voting is has become the last desperate attempt to have some control in the lives of impotent men.

Fuck the ballot box. Stand and deliver.

I bet you'd feel differently about voting would your guy be on the ballot.

You know I'm right ...

------------------------------

This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

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Friday, June 20, 2008 2:58 AM

Yeah. You are right Khyron, but alas, that ended right quick the way that some of us (Hero) knew it would but others were hopeful that it might not this time.

All we're left with is two globalist elitists who will push their separate, but equally chilling Big Brother agendas in our lives. Then when the winning party today loses 4 or 8 years from now, the next president will just push the Big Brother agendas in our lives that the loser in 2008 would have been pushing the last 4 or 8 years.

I was a big fan of Marvel's "What If" series too, no matter how improbable a situation they proposed (which was a real trick given the massive improbability of the subject matter being transmuted).

EDITED TO ADD: I saw that you said "Ron Paul" before in your quote and removed it while I was posting this. Just wondering why you didn't feel like leaving that there.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, June 20, 2008 3:10 AM

KHYRON

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
EDITED TO ADD: I saw that you said "Ron Paul" before in your quote and removed it while I was posting this. Just wondering why you didn't feel like leaving that there.

Two reasons for that. First, I haven't been on this forum for almost a year and wasn't 100% certain anymore if you were one of the Ron Paul supporters (I was fairly sure, but didn't want to risk being wrong on it and looking like a bigger fool than I usually do

). Second, I didn't want my comment to be misconstrued as being snarky towards Ron Paul or his supporters, since I sympathize with his position, even though I wouldn't vote for him.

------------------------------

This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

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Friday, June 20, 2008 3:43 AM

Fair enough. Thanks for being honest about it.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, June 20, 2008 4:43 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
That's my stance on things and it has been since the beginning I've been here Signy.

Um except that was Rue. While we share a lot of opinions, we're not the same person

Quote:
The only difference is that I don't believe it when you say it. Every word out of your mouth sounds like you feel guilty for living here and you're ashamed of being American.

I feel guilty for what my country has done overseas, and I'm vastly ashamed of it. I have come to (mostly) loath most politicians since Vietnam. Despite that I truly love my country.

Quote:
All I'm trying to say is that it is possible to REALLY love your country and the privelages you were born into and also have major problems with the Status Quo.

I think that's something we agree on.

Quote:
And to take that the logical step further get off our collective fat asses and do something about it.

Agreed, but... first people have to recognize that there IS a problem, and IMHO they (you) don't recognize the monster that is corporatism, because....

Quote:
Anything that has happened in our lives is not anything that our founding fathers hadn't thought of before and did their damndest to structure a government which couldn't do them.

... the one thing they DIDN'T count on was the formation of powerful corporations, the concentration of power and media in the hands of a few very wealthy people, and the corruption of government by moneyed interests. One of the FF (I forget who) basically said: This all works until we run out of land, because th ability to create your own economic independence would be there until then.

But they were devising a system of government, and it's powers and limitations vis a vis "the people", not an economic system. So all of their redress is in the form of action on "the government" through voting, leaving the corporations free to do pretty much what they want. (Unless you're a believer in putting corporations under rule of law, in which case you could seek economic remedies through political means. But failing that, our government is impotent to address many of our economic issues.)

Quote:
If we let it happen, we deserve what we get.

We're already there, 6ix.

Quote:
But America bashing everyday is not the answer.

I LOVE the United States. I HATE monopolistic corporatism. Maybe I'm singing to the choir when it comes to you, but your frustration with the rest of the world and desire to be an economic dictator (albeit a benevolent one) makes me think that you REALLY haven't "got it" yet. So I'll keep bashing away at corporatism, which- despite people's assumptions to the contrary- does NOT define "the United States.

Quote:
I love my country. I know it's flawed, and if it weren't, it would be heaven and I probably wouldn't belong here anyways. But if we don't stand up and be counted and start making changes then what is our worth, really?

I agree. But here's the deal... you can make changes in several ways.... you can be a singular person (like Napolean) acting from a position of tyranny, you can effect change through a larger group (but still a minority) by exerting yourself through revolution (like the Russian revolution) or you can get almost everyone to take two steps in one direction (like the environmental movement, the civil rights movement, or the feminist movement). The fewer the people involved, the more extreme the action required on the part of those people to create change.

However, it's been my observation that the broader the base of change the more lasting that change will be.

The way I see YOUR challenge then is to change as many minds as possible.

You haven't convince me yet that laizzes-faire monopolism combined with libertarianism is the way to go. Quite the contrary: it sounds like an economic dictatorship of nightmarish proportions.

Read Young Rissa by FM Busby... just the first fifty pages or so. You'll see what I mean.

--------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, June 20, 2008 5:07 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

6-ix

You, and many other posters here, have not had the benefit of living in countries further up on the scales: of happiness, political freedom, opportunity, education, healthcare, lifespan, economic stability, peacefulness ... you have no perspective. And no idea that that is all achievable, and being enjoyed every day by millions, billions of people. Instead you look to your fruitless daydreams of, what, freedom to smoke ?

Maybe, just maybe, the US SHOULD be bashed for how it treats its people (third class to corporations and capitalism), for what it has done around the globe (the world as corporate property), and for what it has become (a kleptocracy of, by and for the wealthy).

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, June 20, 2008 5:21 AM

WHODIED

Hear, Hear.

In America, irony isn't the fear of socialism, but the LACK of fear of fascism.

People here pull their hair and shriek piteously at the mere thought of free cough drops for poor children, meanwhile lobbyists pay congress to improve the legal standing of big business OVER individuals. (And a gesticulated fie! to the Supreme Court for helpin' 'em)

Soon, legally, you may find yourself the equivalent of 3/5 corporate entity. Think they'll make a new amendment, or just resurrect and reword the old one?

--WhoDied

_______________________

Flames wouldn’t be eternal if they actually consumed anything. But it means something that you tried.

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Friday, June 20, 2008 5:29 AM

Where'd you get all that Rue? A magazine? A book? An internet article? A Michael Moore movie?

The grass is always greener....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, June 20, 2008 5:35 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

6-ix

Just b/c you're ignorant is no reason to assume everyone else is, too.

I lived within 5 miles of Canada for over half my life - watched Canadian TV (including their boring news with so little crime), listened to Canadian radio. And spent a little bit more than year in Canada. And have Canadian friends.

I know quite a bit about Canada, what it's like to visit, what's it's like to live there.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, June 20, 2008 5:36 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

6ix- All you have to do is visit Mexico and Canada to know that national policy makes a difference. So, where would you rather live, eh?

Quote:
Soon, legally, you may find yourself the equivalent of 3/5 corporate entity

Sad to say, about 5/6 have no idea what you're talking about, and... 3/5 would actually be a step UP for us.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, June 20, 2008 8:14 AM