PC by Wulfenstar

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

POSTED BY: WULFENSTAR
UPDATED: Monday, June 30, 2008 05:11
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Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:33 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

“The two pillars of 'political correctness' are:

a) willful ignorance

b) a steadfast refusal to face the truth”
-George MacDonald

“Political correctness does not legislate tolerance; it only organizes hatred”
-Jacques Barzun

Have at it....

The truth of things should never be hidden in order to promote "unity". Truth should be honestly and openly faced. Only then, can healing and strengthening begin.
-Wulfenstar

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:10 PM

RIGHTEOUS9

arguable...

political correctness has a definite down-side.

It can obscure honesty and prevent real problems from being recognized and adressed.

I'd rather know who has backwards views on race, gender, etc. because at least I know where that person really stands, and we can proceed on disclosed terms.

But certain language can have a chlling effect on learning or feeling safe so there is a reason why there are guidelines to be followed. I don't think that you'd disagree that if a few white kids were following around a black kid at school and calling him nigger, that that would be a problem...

or take the obvious harrassment out of it...if every time they ran into him they referred to him with one stereotype or another or told him derogatory black jokes,etc...

there would be an obvious problem, and people of authority should step in to mitigate that sort of behavior, because it would truly have a negative impact on that child's psyche. Same goes for television personalities...anybody that reaches a vast audience. In this case I'm not suggesting laws, but I don't have a problem with public pressure forcing a station's hand.

Sometimes that public pressure is out of line, sometimes those networks should hold their ground, and hope people rally to their side eventually...

but money talks and that often isn't in the cards. So definitely, there is a concern here.

Ultimately I don't like any kind of enforced censorship, but I can see a need for there to be some responsible choices made about how to let your entertainers speak on television, and how to let your teachers teach, etc,

but the public has to be just as ready to defend those who are inappropriately targeted, as they are to put pressure on the personalities they were offended by.

We have enough of the pull but not enough of the push in this regard.

.......

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:18 PM

CITIZEN

Political Correctness was the extreme that was thrown up to balance the wilfully racist sexist bigotry of the people who are often to be found moaning about it. Why can't we just use some common sense? Well it turns out people are too stupid and ignorant to do that, that's why the world needs the mad extreme of political correctness to balance the other mad extreme of the self styled 'plain talkers' who are actually racist ignorant bigots.

Welcome to crazy town.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:38 PM

FLETCH2

I use a Mac.

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:59 PM

SERGEANTX

There's nothing at all wrong with public condemnation of bigotry and other such ugliness. But political correctness is something else.

I heard a quote a while ago that I thought summed it up nicely - political correctness is the social climate that encourages people to be more concerned with what they should think than with what they do think.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 1:02 PM

RIGHTEOUS9

how do you divorce the two though? at what point do you cross the line from condemning hurtful language and ideas into the realm of pc policing...

the problem is there is no strict way to define the difference.

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 1:11 PM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:

how do you divorce the two though? at what point do you cross the line from condemning hurtful language and ideas into the realm of pc policing...

the problem is there is no strict way to define the difference.

Well, I think we're looking on the wrong end. Political correctness isn't so much imposed top-down. It's a matter of individuals and whether they have the courage to think for themselves, and honor those thoughts even when they might be unpopular.

There are definitely those eager to lead a campaign of "intolerance of intolerance" (Stamp out intolerance now!). But they require people willing to be led in such a way.

I see this whole issue as directly related to the demise of our democratic process. People have let themselves become so malleable and so responsive to media conditioning that they're more comfortable letting someone else think for them. Or maybe it was always like that and democracy is just an unattainable ideal. I dunno.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:53 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The two pillars of 'political correctness' are:
a) willful ignorance
b) a steadfast refusal to face the truth”

Sounds more like a neocon to me!

So, what is "political correctness" anyway? IMHO it's the opposite of being a troll.

There are a million ways to say the truth. My experience has being respectful usually get a better listen than being a troll. So, if you want to be heard then you'll be respectful. But if you just want to insult people you'll find a way to do that too.

Not that I always follow my won advice, just my $0.02.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, June 20, 2008 3:48 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
I use a Mac.

We all need one...in November.

H

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Friday, June 20, 2008 4:50 AM

WHODIED

PC is an informal civil code meant to discourage hostility between various cultural factions within a society, that instead prevents open discourse and thus resolution.

--WhoDied

_______________________

All those secrets you've been concealing
Say you're happy now...

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Friday, June 20, 2008 5:06 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
open discourse and thus resolution

You can have open discourse w/o a verbal slugfest, but that's prolly beyond the imaginings of most Americans, raised as we are with the Stallone/ Norris version of negotiation.

Sometimes I think most Americans simply want to tantrum. Not because it'll resolve any issues but because we're taught that anger is righteous and pure.

I've been on both side of that equation. Trust me... you can intimidate people into doing what you want or at least shutting up, but you won't reach an understanding that way.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, June 20, 2008 5:43 AM

FLETCH2

Interesting true story. Back a ways back I worked with a group of guys from east London. Now anybody that has ever seen a Guy Richie film has at least a passing idea as to how these guys speak and I was stuck with them for five years.

So at the end of that time here I am with this wide boy east end accent, which didn't bother me much because it got me out of trouble on more than one occasion.

Still for the next ten years I wondered around sounding like Badger and in that time I must have visited and worked in at least a half dozen different countries.

Anyway, I move to the US start working for a US company and two weeks after I started I receive a note to report to HR. Reason? Apparently saying the word "luv" as in "thanks luv" could be construde as borderline sexual harassment.

Needless to say I was gobsmacked, not least because I'd lived in Scandinavia where they are very serious about actual equality and nobody had turned a hair.

Now as this wasn't my natural accent and just a bad habbit I picked up along the way I did work to change it but if that had been the way I'd grown up, if "mate" and "luv" had been in there from an early age I'd be inclined to view this as cultural harassment.

The point about PC is that it's an example of the American fixation on style rather than substance. Glossing over the superficial is always better than dealing with root causes of real problems.

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Friday, June 20, 2008 6:04 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

There is absolutely no downside to saying things in an inoffensive way. Altho cultural differences can cause confusion, for example, the Britishism of calling a cigarette a "fag". (Something you DEFINITELY want to avoid here.

)

Being PC doesn't mean you use it as a substitute for real problem -solving either. Yes, it's frustrating dealing with sensitivities in place of real equality, but that's not a problem caused by PC but by the underlying power structure which seeks to maintain a system of inequality.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, June 20, 2008 6:08 AM

WHODIED

The tantrums, I think, are nearer the surface than ever, in part because of prolonged exposure to PC sentiment.

I agree discourse is possible, it just becomes less likely the longer you've been biting your tongue.

The tighter the constriction, the wider the explosion.

--WhoDied

_______________________

Vocal code not accepted.
Unauthorized beings will be considered hostile.

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Friday, June 20, 2008 6:12 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The tighter the constriction, the wider the explosion.

It's a little like farting. You gotta let it out at the right time and amount.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, June 20, 2008 6:16 AM

WHODIED

That's pooting it lightly!

--WhoDied

_______________________

All those secret(ion)s you've been concealing
Say you're happy now...

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Friday, June 20, 2008 6:31 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Been reading along.

I think, as was said above, the whole PC thing came about b/c there was some real a-holes doing some real a-hole things, generally from some position of power (hierarchy, superior numbers, or both). So, since nuance and judgemnent are diffcult to enforce, to bring the a-holes under control, rules were created that said - nope, never. Not in any way. Not even in the slightest. If it's even a sensitive topic - still nope. No matter how neutrally, factually and logically discussed.

So here we are today - being extorted by the least tolerant, most twitchy, smallest-minded among us. As the alternative to having reigning a-holes.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, June 20, 2008 6:42 AM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

Being PC doesn't mean you use it as a substitute for real problem -solving either. Yes, it's frustrating dealing with sensitivities in place of real equality, but that's not a problem caused by PC but by the underlying power structure which seeks to maintain a system of inequality.
.

I think that's my essential point. Actually dealing with inequality in practice takes time, effort and money. What PC does it cover over the underlying problem rather than expend resources to fix it. The who deal is superficial.

A Swedish woman knows she is equal under the law that she has equal rights to a job and to promotion, has equal pay and equal chance of a full career because she doesnt have to chose between a career and a baby.

Knowing all that she isn't really concerned what the bizarre English guy says as long as it isn't intentionally insulting.

PC plasters over the fact that none of that is true for her US counterpart, it's a platitude, a slight of hand used to give the illusion of empowerment rather than pay the costs of actual empowerment.

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Friday, June 20, 2008 8:26 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
So here we are today - being extorted by the least tolerant, most twitchy, smallest-minded among us. As the alternative to having reigning a-holes.

Sadly, we ended up with both. :(

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Friday, June 20, 2008 8:44 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

OUCH !

Yeah, now that you mention it ...

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, June 21, 2008 1:23 PM

PIRATECAT

I am offended that you used my initials to make your point. I think you owe the children an apology. You should give money to build a library to the african latino homless illegal children's hospital. We all should build bridges for a better world.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Saturday, June 28, 2008 8:41 PM

KHYRON

Great example of political correctness going too far:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7479758.stm

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Monday, June 30, 2008 3:13 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Great example of political correctness going too far:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7479758.stm

------------------------------

This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

Darn. You beat me to it. How...enlightened of you to save me from making some non-PC remark.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, June 30, 2008 3:56 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The school, in Lund, southern Sweden, argues that if invitations are handed out on school premises then it must ensure there is no discrimination.

That's not "taking it too far" that's standard school procedure. For example, in my daughter's elem school, the rule was that if you handed out Valentines you handed them out to everybody... and the teachers made a class list so the parents would know how many and what names.

In that school, the principal believed in reward and inclusion, not punishment and exclusion. There were very few discipline problems and almost no bullying despite having a huge percent of special ed students. What seems silly to you is actually a successful school discipline strategy. Here's an example of a unsuccessful strategy:

Kindergartner Voted Out By Students
Morningside Elementary teacher Wendy Portillo had her son's classmates say what they didn't like about 5-year-old Alex. She says the teacher then had the students vote, and voted Alex, who is being evaluated for Asperger's syndrome -- an autism spectrum disorder -- out of the class by a 14-2 margin.

www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/27/earlyshow/main4130288.shtml

That does not help a child with Asperger's learn to deal with others. Children with A understand that other's don't like them. They desperately TRY to fit in, but they don't know how. Truly disruptive students should be moved to a special needs class, but what this child needs more than anything is a speech-language pathologist.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Monday, June 30, 2008 5:11 AM

KHYRON

Sorry, SignyM, but back when I was a kid (not so long ago, but a completely different and far less crazy world, it seems), I got to invite all the kids I wanted to invite and wasn't forced to invite everyone because somebody "might feel discriminated against". Had that happened, I probably would've refused to have any parties at all. After all, it was my birthday party, which I wanted to spend with my friends, not a class get-together, right?

The thought of living in a free society and being told who to invite to one's parties seems very contradictory to me.

The example you cite is obviously a depressing example of something that should never have happened (not because it's politically incorrect, but because it's just plain wrong), but it's got nothing to do with the article I linked.

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