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Originally posted by SignyM:
Nothing.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
...what we have now (laizzes faire monopolism)

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So who makes the FMRI? Who makes the parts for the FMRI? Who makes the machines that make the parts for the FMRI?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
6ix: There is a critical flaw in your concept of "island America". While we have a abundant resources compared to EU and China, we're missing key elements.

Modern technology depends on a lot of little things all coming together at the same time. You can't make stainless steel w/o chromium, for example. So everything could be going along swimmingly, and then suddenly you find yourself short of something that you hadn't thought of.. tantalum for capacitors, as an example.

We rely 100% for imports of bauxite (aluminum ore), 95% on bismuth, 78% cobalt, 100% manganese, 91% platinum, 95% tin, and 100% thallium.
www.census.gov/prod/2006pubs/07statab/natresor.pdf
p13.

So while I agree that we have many resources, we can't isolate ourselves completely.

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Let's party like it's 1929.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
How do I make myself a corporation?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
It's not the size that bother me as much as the business form. Corporations seems to have an exceedingly favorable perch: The get all of the "rights" of individuals (freedom of speech, privacy, patents etc.) but none of the downsides. When was the last time you saw a corporation "executed" for knowingly killing someone (even thousands of people) with a defective product?

They get favorable tax rates (THEY get to take "expenses" off their income, WE don't!). If you steal from a person it may be a misdemeanor, but if you steal from a corporation it's an automatic felony. I can come up with dozens of examples that would make your head blow off.

In addition, and I know this is sacrosanct, but I've thought this out in detail... business REALLY gets into trouble when its publicly traded. Suddenly, the "worth" of a business gets yanked around by speculation. The CEO, owner, or board is unable to look further ahead than the next quarterly report. I've seen small businesses with great products get hammered in the stock market because the market wouldn't allow them to pursue market share at the expense of profitability... which was (for them) the only path to success.

So I'm not a know-nothing when it comes to business, economics, and markets. But it's the stock market that drives companies to do unethical things... either because chief officers are looking to fatten their stock options before they bail (like Enron) or because they feel the hot breath of a takeover down their neck (like Yahoo). Also, the stock market encourages consolidation, which leads to the formation of monopolies.

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Originally posted by kaneman:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
How do I make myself a corporation?

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Not sure, but you will need cubicles....lots of 'em......and at least one copier....

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Originally posted by SignyM:
PEOPLE DO

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Not sure, but you will need cubicles....lots of 'em......and at least one copier....

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Originally posted by kaneman:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
How do I make myself a corporation?

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Not sure, but you will need cubicles....lots of 'em......and at least one copier....

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One thing about corps, that gets even less attention than their various legal privileges, is the way coporations have become an extended arm of western colonialism. It's a symbiotic relationship. We go to war to protect corporate interests, and they reciprocate by undermining the cultural foundations of other nations.

This is the main grievance of Islamic Fundamentalists that Americans can't understand, or merely don't want to. We use the ostensibly benign hand of trade as a wedge to impose our values on them. If they object, our military keeps them in line. How could they not be pissed off about this?

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Originally posted by kaneman:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
How do I make myself a corporation?

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Not sure, but you will need cubicles....lots of 'em......and at least one copier....

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Originally posted by rallem:
I suggest if this sounds intriguing to you to contact your State's Attorney and get the real scoop...

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Originally posted by Geezer:
So a whole bunch of people just get together randomly and build ...

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Originally posted by rue:
First they invent and discover: the hammer-rock, language, the bowl, fire, clothes, agriculture, domestication of animals, and so on.

Then they build - huts, walls, water channels, wells. Eventually great cities and civilizations.

All without a corporation in sight.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Instead of corporations, things were driven by the ruling aristocracy. Something far worse than corporations in most instances.

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Originally posted by rue:
What capitalism does fairly well is bring capital together. But that can be done through other means.

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Originally posted by rue:
Does it matter?

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capitalism does well is the distribution of goods and services

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Originally posted by SergeantX:
The other, complimentary, thing that capitalism does well is the distribution of goods and services. This is the lesson that Soviet economic planners learned very painfully. It turns out that central planning of an economy is prohibitively difficult. Anticipating the needs and desires of a nation's population is the essential function of any economic system and it's extremely difficult to do effectively. It requires nearly omniscient awareness of the needs of every household in the nation. It's by far more effective to delegate such decisions to a distributed network of entities dedicated to making such forecasts. And the best way to encourage accuracy in such forecasts is to reward accuracy in accordance with it's effectiveness. That's the core function of capitalism.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Capitalism where corporations are given free reign doesn't work well in this regard either, in my opinion, since the best profits will be made by making whatever the hell you want, and convincing the populace that that is what they want, through advertising and other subconscious means.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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It also makes no sense how some want to regulate government, a large group of people with the means to supercede the individual, that in a democracy has a vested interest to lookout for the needs of the people, while removing regulation of corporations, large groups of people with the means to supercede the individual, that have a vested interest in screwing everyone else over for the needs of their share holders. Where is the logic in curbing the power of government, but giving free reign to corporations?

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That's about the clearest I've heard this conundrum expressed. That's what I've been trying to ask Frem, Sarge, Geezer and 6ix. Maybe your wording will make it clearer.

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It also makes no sense how some want to regulate government, a large group of people with the means to supercede the individual, that in a democracy has a vested interest to lookout for the needs of the people, while removing regulation of corporations, large groups of people with the means to supercede the individual, that have a vested interest in screwing everyone else over for the needs of their share holders. Where is the logic in curbing the power of government, but giving free reign to corporations?

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Originally posted by rue:
There are an infinite numbers of ways and rationales to do those things - as many as the human mind can come up with and every shade and multiple combination of them. None is more or less natural law than the other. So it comes down to what you want to end up with.

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When I think about the old USSR what I think is that everyone may have had small apartments but there were no homeless, everyone may have been educated in the same system but they all went to school, everyone may have had a small choice in luxury foods but there were no starving.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Solution? Make separation of Corporation and State as enshrined in law as that of Church and state

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Yep. And all you had to do was give up your freedom to do, say, think, own, read or listen to anything the government said you couldn't

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I want to end up with an FMRI machine. Give me an example of a non-corporate, non-capitalist system that's around now that can make me an FMRI.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Solution? Make separation of Corporation and State as enshrined in law as that of Church and state (actually it'll probably be best to make it more enshrined...).

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I really can't fathom where this idea (I'm not accusing anyone in particular of expressing this idea, but it is one I have heard expressed) that regulations are bad comes from.

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Regulated business is a good thing, business does not self regulate. Corporations break the laws now, when there are laws to break, why on Earth would they suddenly stop when there are no consequences for their actions?

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To me it sounds like saying people will stop committing murders, if we just stopped charging people with murder.

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concerted effort at the ballot box

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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I want to end up with an FMRI machine. Give me an example of a non-corporate, non-capitalist system that's around now that can make me an FMRI.

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China, Japan, Taiwan, the EU. (None of them are fully capitalist)

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But the FMRI machine would still be made by a large corporation. Weren't you also against large corporations? Or are you okay with large corporations outside the US?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
That's a little like saying... it's a corporation. Except it's owned by the State. And it pays VAT. And it's wage structure is regulated- the bosses only make 40X what the workers do, not 4000X. And the Union has managerial say.

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But that's not the way it's done in China, Taiwan, Japan or the EU.

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