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Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Blah, blah, blah, blah...

Lies and more lies. It's funny how people constantly parrot what they are told they should think. Thanks CNN.

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:


The thing is, Americans have lost thier sense of reality. Why? Because they watch a dog wagging TV that constantly tells them retarded things like 'Torture is acceptable' (actual CNN quote from two weeks BEFORE the torture photos), or 'the Geneva Convention doesn't apply' (Dick Cheney), or anything they can think of. They will say anything. The White House is a liars think tank.

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:


America has already lost the conflict in Iraq. This is the first thing Americans need to understand. It's over. You lost. Again. Who will you blame?

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:


The Chicago University study that showed how the White House revieled over 27 reasons for invading Iraq is incredible. Now, this is said on the news like it's no big thing... well, if I gave my boss 27 reasons for fuckin' up do you think I'd have a job? REALITY! Other countries respect laws because people go to jail, even Presidents. But not in the USA. Not anymore.

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:


Worse... no one here has stood up for the soldiers at all! SHAME! The spin going around, especially the first week, is that the 'abuse' (it's TORTURE! REALITY!) was caused by a few. But we know that in fact this is POLICY from Intellegence and thus Rumsfeld and thus the President. How do we know this? REALITY... it's thier JOB to know! So why doesn't anyone call the White House on it? Why?

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:


Because the White House runs the War like the Nazis did. That is - dissent is treason (there's even a frickin' book), follow the Pres or loose your job (Clarke), ignore international law (torturing innocent civilians as policy).

I know the old rule on the Net is that the second you call someone a Nazi that ends the debate. But when the White House uses every Nazi trick in the Nazi cook book you gotta wonder. And of course, sicking dogs on prisoners certainly provoked a few memories (and comments) from Holocaust Survivors.

"The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly . . . it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over."
-Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Minister of Propaganda

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Originally posted by Talvin:
To GHOULMAN:

Because we are a community, one that you have clearly disparaged and do not consider yourself part of. If you feel this is so important, go start your own. "Browncoats against Bush" if you like, or whatever.

This community has nothing to do with "engine properties" and a great deal to do with support and friendship. Your reply to my post shows that your main interest is in starting a fight, and that means you do not belong here.

Now leave.


"I give up. I admit it. I'm a Browncoat."

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Blah, blah, blah, blah...

Lies and more lies. It's funny how people constantly parrot what they are told they should think. Thanks CNN.

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People with diarrhea of the mouth certainly helps

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:


The thing is, Americans have lost thier sense of reality. Why? Because they watch a dog wagging TV that constantly tells them retarded things like 'Torture is acceptable' (actual CNN quote from two weeks BEFORE the torture photos), or 'the Geneva Convention doesn't apply' (Dick Cheney), or anything they can think of. They will say anything. The White House is a liars think tank.

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so what will some one so disillusioned as you change the world for the better? Will you get rid of the White House altogether? What is your solution? Because just running off at the mouth is nothing more than a rabid junk yard dog barking - nobody listens and at the end they get the police to put it down.

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:


America has already lost the conflict in Iraq. This is the first thing Americans need to understand. It's over. You lost. Again. Who will you blame?

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Sorry, where's the big red flag that said that US has "lost" this one? What's the deal with winning anyways? Last I checked, US has got a whole bunch of people over there trying to help these folks setup their country again.

A few unruly stupid bastard spoils a part of it and you are ready to toss in the towel - we've got a word for that:

Loser al Grande.

Maybe that's you, it's not the rest of the folks there trying to do a job. Let's get rid of these few rotten apples and Let's keep it going.

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:


The Chicago University study that showed how the White House revieled over 27 reasons for invading Iraq is incredible. Now, this is said on the news like it's no big thing... well, if I gave my boss 27 reasons for fuckin' up do you think I'd have a job? REALITY! Other countries respect laws because people go to jail, even Presidents. But not in the USA. Not anymore.

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eh, if you told your boss 27 reasons why your fucked up - not only did you fucked up, but you were stupid too... But it all depends on whether he likes you or not - come on, someone as brilliantly cynical as you can't still believe in meritocracy - can you? It's all about *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*.

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:


Worse... no one here has stood up for the soldiers at all! SHAME! The spin going around, especially the first week, is that the 'abuse' (it's TORTURE! REALITY!) was caused by a few. But we know that in fact this is POLICY from Intellegence and thus Rumsfeld and thus the President. How do we know this? REALITY... it's thier JOB to know! So why doesn't anyone call the White House on it? Why?

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And where's the proof that they Georgy and Rummy knew that Pvt and Spc so and so were beating people up? Oh! We don't need any of that, why don't we just hang them high without a trial.

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:


Because the White House runs the War like the Nazis did. That is - dissent is treason (there's even a frickin' book), follow the Pres or loose your job (Clarke), ignore international law (torturing innocent civilians as policy).

I know the old rule on the Net is that the second you call someone a Nazi that ends the debate. But when the White House uses every Nazi trick in the Nazi cook book you gotta wonder. And of course, sicking dogs on prisoners certainly provoked a few memories (and comments) from Holocaust Survivors.

"The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly . . . it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over."
-Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Minister of Propaganda

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Funny you should quote him. I thought that's what you were doing. Just keep repeating the same crap over and over and hope that it becomes the truth.

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Originally posted by rue:
I read David Kay's entire report.

As a source of amusement, you might be interested in tallying the 'may's, 'might's, 'could's, and 'possible's, (could possibly, may possibly etc) and similar phrases in the report.

Also tally up the unmodified 'are's, 'did's, 'was's etc (ie 'was possibly' doesn't count).

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Originally posted by spacerabbit:
Thank you ghoulman, thank you, thank you, thank you! I think political discussions belong here! Even if i think it is shocking that there are people like AURaptor among my fellow browncoats. But it is refreshing to see that there are also still some people with a bit of intelligence and backbone out there. There is so much bullshit out there that it makes me so angry!!!! So please keep this up!

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A senior leader of Al Qaeda who was captured in Pakistan several months after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks was the main source for intelligence, since discredited, that Iraq had provided training in chemical and biological weapons to members of the organization, according to American intelligence officials.

Intelligence officials say the detainee, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, a member of Osama bin Laden's inner circle, recanted the claims sometime last year, but not before they had become the basis of statements by President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of State Colin L. Powell and others about links between Iraq and Al Qaeda that involved poisons, gases and other illicit weapons.

Mr. Libi, who was captured in Pakistan in December 2001, is still being held by the Central Intelligence Agency at a secret interrogation center, and American officials say his now-recanted claims raise new questions about the value of the information obtained from such detainees.

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Originally posted by rue:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/31/international/middleeast/31inte.html
?th

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A senior leader of Al Qaeda who was captured in Pakistan several months after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks was the main source for intelligence, since discredited, that Iraq had provided training in chemical and biological weapons to members of the organization, according to American intelligence officials.

Intelligence officials say the detainee, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, a member of Osama bin Laden's inner circle, recanted the claims sometime last year, but not before they had become the basis of statements by President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of State Colin L. Powell and others about links between Iraq and Al Qaeda that involved poisons, gases and other illicit weapons.

Mr. Libi, who was captured in Pakistan in December 2001, is still being held by the Central Intelligence Agency at a secret interrogation center, and American officials say his now-recanted claims raise new questions about the value of the information obtained from such detainees.

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Secret locations is sometimes used as code for friendly countries that use torture (Egypt, Pakistan).

The article goes on to recap that no evidence of ANY cooperation between al Qaeda and Iraq on any matter has been found by either the Senate Intelligence Committee or the Sept 11 Commission (for those who missed that fact).

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"But to date we have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship."

With the Sudanese regime acting as intermediary, Bin Ladin himself met
with a senior Iraqi intelligence officer in Khartoum in late 1994 or early 1995. Bin Ladin is said to have asked for space to establish training camps, as well as assistance in procuring weapons, but there is no evidence that Iraq responded to this request.55 As described below, the ensuing years saw additional efforts to establish connections.
There is also evidence that around this time Bin Ladin sent out a number
of feelers to the Iraqi regime, offering some cooperation. None are reported
to have received a significant response. According to one report, Saddam Hussein’s efforts at this time to rebuild relations with the Saudis and other Middle Eastern regimes led him to stay clear of Bin Ladin.74
In mid-1998, the situation reversed; it was Iraq that reportedly took the initiative. In March 1998, after Bin Ladin’s public fatwa against the United States, two al Qaeda members reportedly went to Iraq to meet with Iraqi intelligence.
In July, an Iraqi delegation traveled to Afghanistan to meet first with
the Taliban and then with Bin Ladin. Sources reported that one, or perhaps
both, of these meetings was apparently arranged through Bin Ladin’s Egyptian
deputy, Zawahiri, who had ties of his own to the Iraqis. In 1998, Iraq was
under intensifying U.S. pressure, which culminated in a series of large air
attacks in December.75 Similar meetings between Iraqi officials and Bin Ladin or his aides may have occurred in 1999 during a period of some reported strains with the Taliban. According to the reporting, Iraqi officials offered Bin Ladin a safe haven in Iraq.
Bin Ladin declined, apparently judging that his circumstances in Afghanistan
remained more favorable than the Iraqi alternative. The reports describe
friendly contacts and indicate some common themes in both sides’ hatred of
the United States. But to date we have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship. Nor have we seen evidence indicating that Iraq cooperated with al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States.76

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Though Bin Ladin’s destination was Afghanistan, Pakistan was the nation that held the key to his ability to use Afghanistan as a base from which to revive his ambitious enterprise for war against the United States.
It is unlikely that Bin Ladin could have returned to Afghanistan had Pakistan disapproved. The Pakistani military intelligence service probably had advance knowledge of his coming, and its officers may have facilitated his travel.

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Originally posted by rue:
There are 157 references to "Iraq" in the report. These passages refer directly to an Iraq - al Qaeda relationship:

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Originally posted by rue:


On the other hand, there are 311 references to Pakistan.

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Sorry, but I'd rather strip a prisoner naked and make them BELIEVE something bad was going to happen if they didn't give us information that would save 1 American life. If that's sick , then fine by me. Better harrass 1 prisoner w/ psychology than to allow 10's of civillians / US Soldiers die from a car bomb. I'll make that choice EVERY time.

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The abuse depicted in the Abu Ghraib photographs made public was "a kind of 'Animal House' on the night shift," Schlesinger said - in other words, acts of sadism committed by low-ranking guards for their own entertainment. The report described the abuse as "acts of brutality and purposeless sadism," and said - as have others who reviewed the case - that the soldiers involved were not acting on approved orders or policies.

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Originally posted by Astriana:
Normally I don't get involved in these conversations, and y'all know I love ya more'n my luggage, but I'd just like to point out to Ghoulman that there are CHILDREN on this board, reading the same posts we are. Please do us all a favor (but especially Haken), and refrain from the kind of nonsense in your latest post.

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Originally posted by Doran:

Our enemies are using this incident to it's full advantage... to fan hatrd both here and in the middle east. It doesn't matter if Bush had taken personal responsiblity and offered to compensate these "victims"; Bush could have lay protrate at their feet and apologized and it would do no good.

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They hate, they hate, they hate.. just like the liberals.

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And they do look at the USA as their "great satan" which has nothing to do with president Bush.. That's just they way they have been raised... they were raised like KKK children.. kids being taught "who do we hate?" "we hate the USA!" Long before George Bush was a public figure the USA was hated by Muslims..

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Originally posted by Hero:

It is important to note the following. We are the good guys. Hence the rule of law and transparency of process will govern all aspects of this investigation.

Bad guys don't play by these rules.

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Originally posted by LexiBlock:

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Originally posted by Hero:

It is important to note the following. We are the good guys. Hence the rule of law and transparency of process will govern all aspects of this investigation.

Bad guys don't play by these rules.

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Sure they do. They exactly the same. They say "We are the good guys - so rules do not apply to us. (Even if signed any)"

Hypocrite.

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Originally posted by Hero:
I said we are the good guys so the rules DO apply. The bad guys may claim 'good guy' status, but they still don't play by the rules.

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

1) US tarrifs Canadian Softwood which is against our free trade agreement (ie illegal) which resulted in 10's of thousands of layoffs in BC and hurting US businesses because of the higher price of US Softwood.

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2) US bans Canadian beef, they say because of BSE, but really for all the wrong reasons. About a week later the US finds a BSE infected cow in it's own hurd, then another...

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The id doesn't care about reality, about the needs of anyone else, only its own satisfaction....When the id wants something, nothing else is important.

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Originally posted by Hero:

Without comment on the merits of the case, the US position is this: Canada is unfairly subsidizing the logging industry by allowing extensive logging operations on Govt controlled land. This allows the Canada to export its wood at prices signifigantly lower then world market value. A NAFTA panel reviewed the allegations and seem to have found them valid, however the caluclations used to determine the unfair benefit (and thus the amount of the duty) was not done correctly. The US has since revised its Duty on Candian wood, reducing it by almost half. Final dispostion will come next year.

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Originally posted by Hero:

Turns out the infection is traced to cows imported from Canada just before the ban went into place. So far the incident remains isolated but many countries have banned or limited US beef imports as a precaution. The result is lots of low priced, high quality beef in American stores, so I'm not complaining.

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Originally posted by Hero:

The Id wants oil. Good thing for the world that the W is in charge. Otherwise we could simply annex what we want and exterminate those who live there, except those we keep as slaves.

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Originally posted by Hero:

I always thought the liberal 'feel gooders' were the ones ruled by Id. Id-iotic ideas like stopping global warming by shutting down industry, throwing fake blood on fur wearers, having extra-marital sex in the oval office, etc.

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:

Army corporal asked a Sgt. what "those guys are doing" he was told to drop it and "let them do thier job". Them being these mysterious contractors.

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:

Will Americans be embarrassed and demand a corrupt government step down?

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Id want info...

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


I have the distinct feeling that this will all be justified somehow and swept under the rug.

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Id want info...

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And what the id wants... (excellent Freudian slip there!)

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


I have the distinct feeling that this will all be justified somehow and swept under the rug.

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Only if Bush were re-elected. When he loses the election in November, this stuff will be front page news by January. Just watch.

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