Were we left-leanin' peeps and Libertarians spoiled by the last quarter of the 20th Century? by chrisisall

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

GEEZER Except that

Quote:
Corporations are unelected bodies with an internal hierarchy; their purpose is to exert control over the social and economic life of their respective areas.

BTW- capitalism inevitably devolves to monopolism due to economies of scale, and to corporatism due to the concentration of power. I agree with Chris: capitalism is a train don't come.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:13 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

I didn't read chrisisalls statment you talk about Signy, but without having read the context, "Capitalism is a train don't come", taken only on it's face value is a very factual statement to me.

It is impossible to say that Capitalism is bad because on the basis of ideals, who wouldn't want to live in a society where those who worked hard and reached their goals were rewarded for it?

Unfortunately, that's not the world we live in, is it? It is impossible to attack capitalism via using the current system as an example for why it is evil. What we've been lead to believe is capitalism all of our lives is tightly regulated and controlled bastardized version of capitalism. It'd be like kids today calling the Jonas Brothers classic rock when they're middle aged.

The more you know.....

I'd post the star, but I'm lazy now.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:43 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
But yeah... I was a dumb kid who read a bunch of crap until I was about 23 and started reading anything of substance.

You 'n' me both... But the important thing is that you ARE reading and learning!

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:43 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Originally posted by SignyM:

Quote:
GEEZER Except that
Quote:
Corporations are unelected bodies with an internal hierarchy; their purpose is to exert control over the social and economic life of their respective areas.

Not quite sure what you're referring to here.

Quote:
BTW- capitalism inevitably devolves to monopolism due to economies of scale...

WHich is why we all drive one brand of car, and can only get burgers at McDucks, right?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, August 19, 2008 7:28 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Not quite sure what you're referring to here.

I was referring to this little gem:

Quote:
Corporatism, practiced by both the Italian Fascists and German National Socialists, seems to embody a lot of the same ideals as the Cooperatives you frequently espouse.

A lot? No. And different in critical aspects.

BTW- Talking about capitalism (communism, or any number of isms) is like talking about religion. When pointing to problems that religions often engender (intolerance, war, ignorance, authoritarianism etc.) people will say... "Well yeah, but if you take away the greed, corruption, narrow-mindedness, and authoritarianism" (in other words, all the frailties human systems are heir to) "and just look at the idea behind it, it's great!"

*snicker*

I have yet to see capitalism. It's as much a fantasy as communism.

AFA monopolies are concerned, large corporations make up a larger part of the economy than ever before. Walmart didn't exist 50 years ago. And you too can buy a Ford Lincoln Mercury Mazda Volvo

http://www.ford.com/about-ford/company-information

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 2:31 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

So, Geezer- no comments?

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 2:40 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So, Geezer- no comments?

Not yet. Sorry if it damages your ego, I don't sit in front of the computer 24/7 waiting to respond to your posts.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 2:49 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Neither do I. I just wanted to make sure you saw the post.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 2:50 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

You 'n' me both... But the important thing is that you ARE reading and learning!

True that...

My next project is Sun Tzu's "The Art of War"...... or what I call "The Art of War 2.0". (It's going to be my second attempt at it.

)

Tupac Shakur (Who I think the world of, even though I won't listen to any of the misogynistic, arrogant, narcissistic, white hating trite CRap that's played on the radio or MTV today) read it when he was 24. I was only 21 when I tried it the first time, but I think I'm a bit more mature now and ready to take it on.

That being said, I think you should listen to some of Tupac's work if you haven't. Sure, he's got the singles that sell the records like any other produced artist, but his lyrics are deep and something you can really move your feet to. I was a white suburbanite kid and I related a lot to what he had to say. Feels funny that on Sunday I'll be 4 years older than when he died.

RIP my man. Hope you're in a better place now laughing at all of us. I ain't got 40's, but I'd pour out a MGD for ya now but my landlord would probably have a problem with a puddle of beer on the floor when I leave.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:38 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

I have yet to see capitalism. It's as much a fantasy as communism.

Chrisisall's Magic 8-Ball says:
"It is decidedly so"

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:07 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Appears I have quite a bit of catching up to do. ...

Anyway ... with all this 'line drawing' of who belongs where I haven't seen any reference to any actual so-called nanny state like say Sweden, the Netherlands or even (gasp) CANADA !. And the framing (as proposed by Geezer - who else

) is all wrong, nothing is being 'forced' on everyone - oddly enough they vote for their particular form of government and economy.

So, out of curiosity, does anyone here consider those countries the prime example of the horrible government forcing the collective good on everyone against their will ?

***************************************************************
Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:10 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

So, out of curiosity, does anyone here consider those countries the prime example of the horrible government forcing the collective good on everyone against their will ?

Sweden, no...Netherlands, no...Canada.....

Stillthinkingisall

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:43 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Chris, Is All

But, to get back to the topic, I didn't have time before to go into detail about what I meant.

Where I am going to end up with after some while is this: will the next generation - the ones you love and care for - have a better world than the one you grew up in, about the same, or worse ? Because if your generation couldn't fix the problems, what makes you think the next generation can ? The very same things that stopped you, will stop them, unless you do something about it.

Geezer's POV is based on two linked but completely false notions: One is that evolution (including social evolution) is an 'improvement' process; the other is that the world we live in is substantially the best ever.

Evolution of any kind isn't an 'improvement' process. It goes down blind alleys for the most trivial of reasons that just happen to be in effect at the time. And the cost of those blind alleys is death.
Geezer wants you to think about the broad span of history. In the very broad span of human history - 150,000 years - how many hundreds of thousands of families, tribes, groups, villages, communities, and civilizations went extinct ? They are gone - without a trace. Can you look back at that and say survival is inevitable, let alone improvement ?

The other thing is whether or not this world is the best ever, the pinnacle, the ultimate expression of 'human nature'. Best ever for whom ? Best ever for what ? Are families any closer ? Is there more tolerance ? More cooperation ? Do you have more actual power over your own life, or are you just trying to fit into 'the system' ? Does everything equate to money, and if not, is that the way we should be running our society ?
Or, maybe you do look at the world with its vast population, extreme poverty for the many and vast wealth for the few, dwindling resources in the pursuit of making more and more saleable stuff - and call it good. Then in your mind we are living in the best of all possible worlds. But many, many suffering people would disagree.

But let's say that social evolution, though halting, reversible and uneven, IS a process of improvement, no matter what you do, or don't do. The Dark Ages lasted for centuries before things got better. Are you willing to let the problems go for your loved ones because, in some vast due time things will get better on their own ?

Which brings me back to where I started: will the next generation - the ones you love and care for - have a better world than the one you grew up in, about the same, or worse ?

***************************************************************
Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:45 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

Sweden, no...Netherlands, no...Canada.....

Stillthinkingisall

OH, CANADA ! ...

***************************************************************
Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:47 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Umm, if they voted FOR it, how then could it be against their will ?

Hell, there's things here I might vote for in practice even though I am adamantly opposed to the concept, simply because the real world is not a perfect place - socialised medicine would suck, but at the very LEAST it would be an improvement on the nightmare we have now, and might in the end lead to a for-once decent set of private practice as a useful alternative and competitor.

Culturally, also, Sweden and the Netherlands have more of what I what almost call a Clan-Bond throughout their entire society, as well as the concept of "enough stuff" - which we in the (sociopathic) States do not seem to have.

Of course, that goes back to the concept of my idea of cutting out stuff till folk start saying "hey, we need that!".

The Swedes kinda did that in reverse, and if they are as a whole comfortable with it, then that is what they want - a rather different story than here, where a REALLY substantial majority do NOT want something, and the Gov goes ahead and does it anyway...

That shit would NOT fly in Sweden, not for a week, maybe not even for five minutes - generally a laid back folk, but I would not mess with them, given a choice, they DO have teeth under that silky coat of fur you know.
(Yes, I'm kidding...

)

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:55 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Where I am going to end up with after some while is this: will the next generation - the ones you love and care for - have a better world than the one you grew up in, about the same, or worse ? Because if your generation couldn't fix the problems, what makes you think the next generation can ? The very same things that stopped you, will stop them, unless you do something about it.

WELL put.

But that's what I do - try in every way imagineable to fix things, up to and including teaching future generations the methods and means to continue that duty long after I myself am worm food.

As I am fond of saying, my Nieces deserve something more as a legacy than the sum of our generations failures.

Drastic changes can and often do lead to catastrophic failures, and such isn't really the way me and mine operate - but in the end, which one wins, the sidewalk, or the tree root?

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:55 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
will the next generation - the ones you love and care for - have a better world than the one you grew up in, about the same, or worse ?

The following is for opinion purposes only; please do not take this as fact.
At the age I am now, my son will be experiencing a different world...TV's will be big & cheap, housing reasonable & available, jobs plentiful but not very well paying, and food & health care expensive as hell. Creative folk (such as he) will be able to make out well for themselves by creating close-knit friend & family units that will be the re-emergence of the extended families of times & cultures past. So...different.

In my son's son's lifetime we will see the death of corporate personhood...
Then comes Starfleet.

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 10:11 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Live long and prosper, then.

***************************************************************
Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 10:25 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Okay, are you actually agreeing that the major icons of the liberals are part of the looney left, pretty much making the entire left the looney left, or is this just more of your sarcasm? Wish we had a emoticon you could use to designate, 'cause somtimes it's hard to tell.

The entire American political system, right and 'left' is looney.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 3:47 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I was referring to this little gem:
Quote:
Corporatism, practiced by both the Italian Fascists and German National Socialists, seems to embody a lot of the same ideals as the Cooperatives you frequently espouse.
A lot? No. And different in critical aspects.

And those aspects are?

Quote:
BTW- Talking about capitalism (communism, or any number of isms) is like talking about religion. When pointing to problems that religions often engender (intolerance, war, ignorance, authoritarianism etc.) people will say... "Well yeah, but if you take away the greed, corruption, narrow-mindedness, and authoritarianism" (in other words, all the frailties human systems are heir to) "and just look at the idea behind it, it's great!"

*snicker*

I have yet to see capitalism. It's as much a fantasy as communism.

One could say the same about your 'cooperativism', or even more so, since you have to go back to either ancient history or tribal cultures to provide any even semi-successful examples. So should we all just give up because no system works perfectly? When you're dealing with humans, nothing is going to work perfectly. Choose what works best in real life. Successful countries are moving towards relatively free-market and kinda capitalist ideas.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 3:50 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Anyway ... with all this 'line drawing' of who belongs where I haven't seen any reference to any actual so-called nanny state like say Sweden, the Netherlands or even (gasp) CANADA

That's been because the discussion has been about the U.S., and tangentinally fascist Italy and Germany, not anywhere else.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 3:58 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Geezer's POV is based on two linked but completely false notions: One is that evolution (including social evolution) is an 'improvement' process; the other is that the world we live in is substantially the best ever.

Rue's POV is that Rue can draw spurious conclusions about what other people mean based on Rue's prejudices.

I've said in many discussions that, overall, the United States (not the world) has been trending, since the Revolution, towards more individual dignity and rights. I've also said that there are bumps along the way. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Any other interpretation on your part is sheer fantasy. Why am I not surprised?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:06 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So, out of curiosity, does anyone here consider those countries the prime example of the horrible government forcing the collective good on everyone against their will ?

Maybe Sweden, since you brought it up?

Quote:
Don’t believe the hype: “Sweden is no cuddly liberal democracy,” writes Nathalie Rothschild for Spiked, berating her home country for “introducing the most Draconian surveillance law in Europe.” Known as the FRA law but nicknamed "Lex Orwell" by opponents, the legislation gives intelligence agencies the right to intercept all incoming foreign communication.

http://www.newser.com/story/32035/big-brother-comes-to-sweden.html

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:47 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
...the legislation gives intelligence agencies the right to intercept all incoming foreign communication.

Sweden passed Bush's FISA bill?!

;)

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 5:00 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"That's been because the discussion has been about the U.S., and tangentinally fascist Italy and Germany, not anywhere else."

Really ? B/c there was some very vague equation, which you drew of course, between the left and countries that force collectivism on their poor oppressed people.

It went something like this: "The Left prizes the collective good (as defined by the Left), and is willing to sacrifice the rights of individuals for the supposed good of the whole. Hence, for example, the "Although you're law-abiding, we demand that you give up your right to own firearms on the off chance it might keep a criminal from using one." type retoric. The Left want the government to "take care" of us, and improve our lives (using their image of 'improved') whether we want to be taken care of and improved or not."

***************************************************************
Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 5:10 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"I've said in many discussions that, overall, the United States (not the world) has been trending, since the Revolution, towards more individual dignity and rights. I've also said that there are bumps along the way. Nothing more. Nothing less."

Then, well - how does this happen ? In your view it just does, somehow.

But in real life it happens through wars, and violence and protest. B/c every time the status quo is threatened, those with the status feel a pinch, and exert power to keep their prerogatives.

So why such a passive view towards equality, freedom and justice ? If you read even the very short history of the US, you know that passivism isn't how things change.

***************************************************************
Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 7:13 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

GEEZER

Quote:
And those aspects are?

I underlined one of them. Just scroll up and read what I wrote.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Thursday, August 21, 2008 6:23 AM