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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Something about there not being a good reason to not pound on a ruthless dictator. Seems like I read that somewhere. Must've been someone else posting that...

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yes, people like the President, the Vice President, the Secretary of Defense... you know, the people who said it would be over in days, weeks, months (doubtful), "mission accomplished", and all that. It ISN'T that easy, and never has been - that's why military force isn't the first option, but the LAST option. And one that we were never anywhere near needing to opt for.

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I was thinking of people like you.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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I was thinking of people like you.

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People like me - because you know so much about me. I've never said that it was going to be too easy, or that we should "give up". What I HAVE said - and have been saying for years - is that we shouldn't have gone in in the first place, BECAUSE it wasn't going to be fast or easy, and we'd be bogged down for YEARS. And for that, I was labeled - by "people like you" - as un-American, unpatriotic, pessimistic, a lover of terrorists, and anything else you - and "people like you" - could throw at me. Yet I'm still here, and I'm still right.

And you and the "people like you" are still trying to justify the war, and still changing the reasons and rationale behind the rush to war.

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that doesn’t mean that it’s worth the resources.

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There are plenty good reasons to pound on Saudi Arabia - that doesn’t mean that it’s worth the resources.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
"worth" the resources? So, why was IRAQ "worth" the resources, but not Saudi Arabia? Or Darfur? What do you place this "worth" on?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
What I HAVE said - and have been saying for years - is that we shouldn't have gone in in the first place, BECAUSE it wasn't going to be fast or easy, and we'd be bogged down for YEARS. And for that, I was labeled - by "people like you" - as un-American, unpatriotic, pessimistic, a lover of terrorists, and anything else you - and "people like you" - could throw at me. Yet I'm still here, and I'm still right.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

That's right, just close your eyes, plug your ears and hum softly secure in your position. How can we help fix Iraq? How do we help stabilize the country? How do we help to rebuild people's lives? Who cares, we shouldn't have gone in the first place, nah nah nah nah nah.

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So, at long last, there's your "principled" moral stand - We'll do it, if it's worth the investment. That's your entire basis for the worth of a human life, is it? It certainly comes across as such.

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How can we help fix Iraq? How do we help stabilize the country? How do we help to rebuild people's lives?

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no one's sayin' just leave them to twist

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

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no one's sayin' just leave them to twist

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Incorrect.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
So, at long last, there's your "principled" moral stand - We'll do it, if it's worth the investment. That's your entire basis for the worth of a human life, is it? It certainly comes across as such.

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Originally posted by Foster:
You know that the Russian excuse is the same one that Hitler used to invade Poland back in the day.

They were "German" people living in Poland and so he was just protecting them from genocide and discrimination. Answer for the world "well if they are your people and your protecting them then it is OK to invade"

It is all just a little bit of history repeating

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Oh, and is it just me, or has no one ELSE ever sat and thought about the economic impact of removing that many american workers from this economy and paying them (badly) from the tax coffers for a very extended period of time ?

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And what about your interest in the lives of those killed by ruthless dictators in Rwanda? Did you support war to deal with those ruthless dictators? What about Darfur? Do you support war to deal with those ruthless dictators?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Those are questions that I was asking almost seven years ago. You know what the answer I got was? "We won't need to - the Iraqis will greet us as liberators, and oil profits will fund the reconstruction." It's no truer now than it was then, and I called bullshit on it then as I do now.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
What do *I* do about it now? Nothing. *I* didn't break it - you did.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
You and your right-wing Neo-con worthless asshole brethren.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
I warned you, you didn't listen, and you can take it all and shove it straight up your ass now for all I care. I told you it would be a monumental waste of human lives, both American and Iraqi, and I was told it wouldn't cost more than a few lives at the most, and the blood is squarely on YOUR hands now, because this is exactly what you wanted and what you begged for, and you fucking well deserve it. I'm sick to fucking death of the righties whinging about how "no one could have foreseen this turn of events in Iraq" - when there were several million of us who foresaw it EXACTLY as it's come to pass, and who were denounced by that very administration as being less than American in our viewpoints. Now these same right-wing assholes want us to sign off on an Iranian campaign, and they assure us that nothing could possibly go wrong this time. Well, fuck them, and fuck you for supporting them.

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We all 'get' that you knew everything about everything once it had already happened.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Just bc you can't predict obvious consequences doesn't mean everyone else is equally incapable.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I had the same problems as Kwicko with invading Iraq, well before we invaded. And we weren't the only ones. There were actual anti-war demonstrations ahead of time, objective proof that at least SOME people could either see the fallacy of the Bush drive to war, or the problems entailed with an invasion, or both.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I've also been predicting the current economic meltdown for about a year. All you have to do is go back to mys posts with Fletch2 to verify.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Now, in my book, if someone has a model in their head accurate enough to predict things that I can't, I feel like I should learn from them because clearly they know something I don't. You might want to do the same, son.

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Who were you asking these questions of...

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...and who was telling you that answer?

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Should the Government provide universal healthcare?
No. I got mine so why do I care?

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Should the government bail out homeowners?
No. I ain't got no mortgage troubles so why do I care?

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Should the Government raise the minimum wage?
No. I don't make minimum wage so why do I care?

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Remember your old sig line about sweeping generalizations always being wrong?

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Because I had the temerity to question your stance, I must be a worthless Neo-con asshole.

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And all Muslims are terrorists, right?

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That was quite a little tantrum there, I hope you feel better now.

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And what's with the language there son, this isn't the locker room.

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Show some respect for your fellow Posters.

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We all 'get' that you knew everything about everything once it had already happened.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Reality check- we were right, er, I mean correct on this, BDN. You poor righties need to defend it, to justify it, to make it the right choice...if you don't criticize the war, you accept it.


isall

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Just because I do not play the "I told you so" card as freely as some, does not mean I did not know.

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Tell me how you know anything about me...

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And what about your interest in the lives of those killed by ruthless dictators in Rwanda? Did you support war to deal with those ruthless dictators? What about Darfur? Do you support war to deal with those ruthless dictators? Obviously we know that you were willing to leave the Iraqis to the whim of that ruthless dictator since you don’t feel the Iraq war was worth the investment. You should be a little more careful with your self-righteous outbursts because these are your principles too.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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And what about your interest in the lives of those killed by ruthless dictators in Rwanda? Did you support war to deal with those ruthless dictators? What about Darfur? Do you support war to deal with those ruthless dictators? Obviously we know that you were willing to leave the Iraqis to the whim of that ruthless dictator since you don’t feel the Iraq war was worth the investment. You should be a little more careful with your self-righteous outbursts because these are your principles too.

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What about my interests in those areas? What do you know of my interests in those areas? Nothing at all.

You say that "obviously" I was willing to leave the Iraqis to the whim of Saddam, because you can only see black/white, on/off, war/not war in your tiny little world view. To say that I was against the invasion and occupation of Iraq is not to say that I was against doing ANYTHING at all. As I stated before, war isn't - and never should be - the FIRST option you go for. It should be the LAST option, because it renders all others unworkable.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
And, as I've pointed out, your FIRST option seems to be to jump straight for the "war" card. You are unwilling to do anything other than jump straight into an all-out war at the drop of a hat.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
those reasons and justifications are changing more often than the seasons. WMD! Oil For Food! Terrorists! Al Qaeda! Hez'bollah! Hamas! Congress made us do it! Saddam must go! UN bad - US good! Support the troops! Moral imperative! Fightin' 'em there so we don't have to fight 'em here! They hate our freedoms! You're not the boss of me! I'm the decider! The Sunnis! The Shiites! The Kurds! The Iranians! The Russians! The Chinese! The North Koreans! The sky is falling!

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Right. After 12 years of negotiation, 17 Chapter 7 Resolutions, and Sanctions that solved no other problems but the lives of 1.5 million people - then I was ready to just jump straight into war. You’re a little bit dumb, aren’t you?

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Does your model lessen the instabilities presently in Iraq? Does it lower the burden on indebted homeowners?

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Oh, but I have learned alot from different Posters in this forum, too bad the same can't be said about you.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
If these are your avowed positions, you hardly gain any credibility by questioning my taking the same position in regards to your beloved little war. And truth be told, I'm right there with ya on at least two of those issues.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Remember your old sig line about sweeping generalizations always being wrong?

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Yes. You DO realize that it's an ironic statement, don't you? It's a contradiction - if I say that sweeping generalizations are always wrong, then that statement is itself a sweeping generalization, and therefore must be wrong. Do you get it?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
MUST be? Not necessarily. If you throw your lot in with Bush and his cronies and support the Iraq war, then yes.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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And all Muslims are terrorists, right?

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Your words, not mine. Let me guess; you never once said anything along the lines of "we should nuke the entire Middle East" or "Kill 'em all".

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'm not your son. You're not my father, nor any kin to me (thank the fates). And I'm likely older than you are, boy. Don't like the profanity? Change your screen name. Isn't that a four-letter word I see in it?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Show some respect for your fellow Posters.

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I show respect for those who earn it.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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We all 'get' that you knew everything about everything once it had already happened.

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I don't think you "get" it at all. The party on the right is the party that is essentially saying:

"Warnings about Al Qaeda? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Hunting down Bin Laden? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Liberating Iraq and making it a haven for democracy and a beacon to the Middle East? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Throwing covert operatives under the bus to settle political scores? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Firing U.S. attorneys who didn't want to play ball on caging lists and participate in election fraud? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Responding to natural disasters like Katrina? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Anticipating the mortgage meltdown? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Tanking the economy and devaluing the dollar? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Blowing the "permanent majority" that would keep us forever in power? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Having any credibility on the world diplomatic stage? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Pulling nations together to unite in an effort to eradicate terrorism? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Wiping out the Taliban and Al Qaeda and putting an end to Islamic extremism? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Getting you cheap oil like Rupert Murdoch promised? Boy, we really screwed that one up..."

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
They say even a broken clock is right twice a day. Are you content to throw your lot in with the guys who get it right two times out of every 1440? Is that an acceptable win-loss record to you?

Just wonderin'... son.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I can't help it if you're uneducable.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Just because I do not play the "I told you so" card as freely as some, does not mean I did not know.

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Then, pray tell, how can we know that you aren't just posturing? You SAY you know, but what proof do we have?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Tell me how you know anything about me...

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Right back atcha, sporto.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

Most things get wet when it rains, is that statement inherently wrong?

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
But then again, simple-mindedness doth amuse me, it's been said.

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Right. After 12 years of negotiation, 17 Chapter 7 Resolutions, and Sanctions that solved no other problems but the lives of 1.5 million people - then I was ready to just jump straight into war.

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You’re a little bit dumb, aren’t you?

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

You are your own best friend.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I can't help it if you're uneducable.

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I'm rubber and you're glue.

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What you don't seem to get is that it is all moot at this point.
WHO CARES HOW OR WHY THE INVASION TOOK PLACE, IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT IT TOOK PLACE.

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WHO CARES HOW OR WHY THE INVASION TOOK PLACE, IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT IT TOOK PLACE

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Right. After 12 years of negotiation, 17 Chapter 7 Resolutions, and Sanctions that solved no other problems but the lives of 1.5 million people - then I was ready to just jump straight into war. You’re a little bit dumb, aren’t you?- Finn

Except... that it DID work. Saddam's WMD were no more. And when that was about to be validated, our Admin cut the process short. And all YOU can seem to do, rather than admit that you misjudged the situation, is to defend an unnecessary war ad infinitum ad nauseum.

Which is consistent with your posts on wars in general. There isn't a war or intervention (of ours) that you haven't defended at one point or another, including supplying the Taliban and ObL with arms, Vietnam, Panama, Grenada etc. It doesn't matter what the putative cause, it's all good. Some people might agree with your preference for war, and others disagree, but your pro-war bias is obvious to many people - but not you. I'm not saying you're a hypocrite. You don't KNOW what you think.

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There really can never NOT be a good reason to pound on a ruthless dictator.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
But if you know HOW and WHY we screwed up, maybe we won't make that mistake again. It's all part of learning... from history, if you can't learn from others. Like I said: I can't help it if you're undeducable.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
And, as you yourself have pointed out, 12 years and 17 resolutions that were never enforced because of the UN's inherent evilness and corruption, and the US's inherent unwillingness to back UN enforcement... but let's never let that stop us from blaming the UN for what we wouldn't demand they do!

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
As for your "1.5 million" figure - I don't buy it. That number has gone up and up and up, every time it gets tossed out there. First it was 120,000; then it was 140,000 - and after only a few short iterations, it's now all the way up to 1.5 million! Keep going; before you know it, Saddam will have killed more of his own people than Stalin and Hitler combined.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Could be... could be. Of course, that loses a little of its intended sting when it's coming from the guy who can't tell the difference between "then" and "than", "their", "there" and "they're", "your", "you're" and "yore", and "weather" and "whether"...

So if I'm a "little bit dumb" (congrats on getting that silent "b" in the right place!), where does that leave you? More than a little, I'd wager...

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