South Ossetia: Defense against ethnic cleansing, or invasion? (Turns out, Georgia fired missiles first. it was self defense) by SignyM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I impress myself if I can keep my fingers on the home keys.

Finn, I offered you a simple question: WHY do you keep claiming that the UN sanctions "didn't solve anything" when they very clearly did? If you could figure that out, you might learn something useful about yourself. You might find that the problems that YOU wanted solved were not the problems the UN was focusing on, and so "the solution" was unsatisfactory to you. Maybe you were more concerned about what Saddam might do in the future, so your REAL objective was "regime change". Or perhaps you were worried about the possible ending of the "no fly" zones, so your REAL objective was to foster breakaway areas. With a little bit of introspection you might figure out what your REAL objectives were besides WMD, because the WMD problem was over.

Or you might find out that you had misjudged the situation. Perhaps your jaundiced assumptions about the UN prevented you from assessing the latest information. Perhaps your trust in the Administration granted their data too much crdibility. You might create a mental toolkit to help you be more objective in the future.

But apparently you avoid thinking about your own worldview, because you're afraid that insight might require change. And god forbid that you move out of your comfort zone. So you'd rather discuss your typing skills.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Saturday, August 23, 2008 6:07 AM

CHRISISALL

September 12, 2001....

Cheney:
Now's the time we make those bastards pay.

Bush:
Yes- they made me so upset that I held my favourite book upside-down in front of the children!

Cheney:
Not them you idiot- Congress! They get to be our cash cow as we render our final solution to the irritating problem of the Middle East.

Bush:
But the, um, hijacker-payers...I mean...the ones that are responsible-

Cheney:
Oh, we'll get them too, we'll get them all!

Bush:
..the girl, the marbles, the gold watch...

Cheney:
MUHUHUHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

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Saturday, August 23, 2008 7:40 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

This is just priceless.

The usual suspects use the precedent of the Iraq war, which they have railed against long and mightily, to justify Russia invading Georgia. Not content with that massive feat of illogic, they go on to once again rail against the very same illegal Iraq war that they claim makes the Georgian war legal.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, August 23, 2008 8:13 AM

CHRISISALL

Oh stop dude, give it a rest.
Really, it's getting old. You just do it for effect now, right?
Saying why the fuss over what Russia is doing is saying it's AS WRONG as our little adventure, the difference is that Russia is invading peeps they have some connection to, whereas we went halfway around the world.

Both wrong- get it? They're both wrong. Both.

Now stopisall

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Saturday, August 23, 2008 8:26 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
This is just priceless.

The usual suspects use the precedent of the Iraq war, which they have railed against long and mightily, to justify Russia invading Georgia. Not content with that massive feat of illogic, they go on to once again rail against the very same illegal Iraq war that they claim makes the Georgian war legal.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Well, Geez, I'm not sure if I'm one of your "usual suspects", but I don't recall "justifying" Russia invading, nor do I recall claiming that it was "legal" for them to do so.

I might point out that "the usual suspects" on the right have also tried to justify Russia's actions as ILLEGAL by claiming that when we did the same thing, it was LEGAL. It seems a bit hypocritical to me, sort of like if John Edwards was telling us all how moral we should be - AFTER his affairs and lies to cover it up were revealed!

Russia puts us in a sticky situation. Is it legal? Is it right? Are they justified? Are we supposed to do anything about it? Should we attack them, or should we stand aside? If we support Georgia with military arms and forces, would the Russians then be justified in helping Al Qaeda in Iraq to combat OUR "illegal" invasion and occupation? Russia didn't support our Iraq invasion, but they also didn't come in on the side of Saddam in the matter, either. They stayed out of it, militarily. Is that what we should be doing now? What is our obligation to Georgia, militarily, morally, and legally?

I've tried to point out that it's a bit ironic, and that our own recent actions have taken away much of our moral high ground to really say much of anything about it. They've launched a war - provoked or not - on Georgia on a pretty flimsy pretext. The irony is, we've launched at least one war on an even flimsier pretext. Russia can make the claim that their situation is of more immediate threat and impact to them, since it is occurring not halfway around the world from them, but RIGHT ON THEIR BORDER.

None of which makes it "okay" by me. It's a fucked-up situation, and it's not getting better real soon. Wish I had a simple answer for you as to what to do about it, but I don't.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Saturday, August 23, 2008 8:30 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
This is just priceless. The usual suspects use the precedent of the Iraq war, which they have railed against long and mightily, to justify Russia invading Georgia. Not content with that massive feat of illogic, they go on to once again rail against the very same illegal Iraq war that they claim makes the Georgian war legal.

This is pricless. The people who claimed the USA invasion of Iraq was legal are now claiming the Russian invasion of Georgia was illegal.

BTW- I never said the Russian invasion of Georgia was legal, and (as far as I can tell) no-one else has said so either. So you might want to take that mischaracterization and stick it where the sun don't shine. I have long held that the only reason for war is the immediate defense of self and others against a mortal threat. If it can't be carried out in such as way as to save more people than would be killed, then other avenues should be taken. I thought, for example, that the "no fly" zones were a stellar success. Arms embargoes are another option, as are economic sanctions. (I have a specific form in mind.)

But it's no surprise that you mischaracterize my (and others') postions. Although I do find it touching that you jump to Finn's defense, since he seems to have boxed himself in a corner.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Saturday, August 23, 2008 1:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Pulling Saddam into line would have been the first step. Remarkably, it had worked to some degree after the first Gulf War - a war which was never aimed at regime change in Iraq, but solely at driving Iraqi forces from Kuwait. George H.W. Bush understood something that Dubya never has: creating a power vacuum in Iraq was a VERY BAD IDEA. You had too many factions, all of which hated each other, but all of which were somewhat held in check by Saddam's ruthless reign. The only way removing him from power was ever going to be workable was if it were done from within.

Not really, it was the Arab nations that stopped the war going further, not Bush senior.

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Saturday, August 23, 2008 1:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Please tell me why we do not crucify people anymore without you constantly reminding us how the first "major" one went.

Probably because the Classical Roman empire collapsed over a thousand years ago.

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Saturday, August 23, 2008 1:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
This is just priceless.

The usual suspects use the precedent of the Iraq war, which they have railed against long and mightily, to justify Russia invading Georgia. Not content with that massive feat of illogic, they go on to once again rail against the very same illegal Iraq war that they claim makes the Georgian war legal.

Who was justifying the Russian invasion of Georgia? Quotes please.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, September 14, 2008 6:33 PM

Russian Blackjacks In Venezuela End Yankee Hegemony: Chavez

http://www.spacewar.com/

by Martin Sieff
Washington (UPI) Sep 11, 2008
Two Russian Tupolev Tu-160 White Swan supersonic bombers landed Wednesday night in Venezuela, where they were personally acclaimed by President Hugo Chavez as heralding the end of Yankee imperialism.

The 1,380 miles per hour Tu-160s -- NATO designation Blackjack -- flew into Liberator air base in Venezuela. Fiercely anti-American Chavez greeted them with an address on Venezuelan national television with the words "The Yankee hegemony is finished."

The U.S. Air Force and NATO took the Blackjacks very seriously and sent combat aircraft to shadow them closely in their flight across the Atlantic Ocean.

For the two Tu-160s are historic and strategic game-changers. They can carry 99,000 pounds of munitions, including Mach-2, nuclear-capable X-555 cruise missiles capable of annihilating targets 2,000 miles inland in the continental United States when fired from outside U.S. air space

Sending the beautiful gigantic aircraft -- which look remarkably like the old Concorde supersonic airliner -- to Venezuela marks a serious Russian strategic counter-move to the unprecedented concentration of U.S. and NATO warships in the Black Sea -- regarded by Russia as a private lake for 250 years since the time of the Empress Catherine the Great -- and they are also the most aggressive strategic challenge or gambit the Kremlin has laid down in the Western Hemisphere in at least a quarter of a century.

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Sunday, September 14, 2008 9:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
This is just priceless.

The usual suspects use the precedent of the Iraq war, which they have railed against long and mightily, to justify Russia invading Georgia. Not content with that massive feat of illogic, they go on to once again rail against the very same illegal Iraq war that they claim makes the Georgian war legal.

I think we've waited long enough for this claim to be substantiated.

The usual suspects lie, in lieu of being incapable of making an argument.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, August 14, 2009 5:34 AM

Myth, Meth and the Georgian Invasion
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090831/cockburn
Kirill Benediktov, in his online book on the invasion, reports that these soldiers were equipped--so subsequent searches of bodies and prisoners of war disclosed--not only with NATO-supplied food packages but with sachets of methamphetamine and combat stress pills based on MDMA, aka the active ingredient of Ecstasy. The meth amps up soldiers to kill without mercy, and the MDMA derivative frees them of subsequent debilitating flashbacks and recurring nightmares. Official use of methamphetamine and official testing of MDMA in the US armed forces have been discussed in news stories.

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Friday, August 14, 2009 7:46 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I think people have no idea how much is orchestrated behind the scenes, and how they are driven like so many bleating sheep to support this or that "movement". Their POV is constructed by a media which fabricates support or indignation. Even today, 30% think that Saddam Hussein was directly involved with 9-11.

The people who decried Iranian suppression of popular movement are the very same people who supported the Honduran military coup.

Sheesh!

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Friday, August 14, 2009 2:29 PM

DREAMTROVE

A couple comments on this necropost:

1. Moussavi resoundingly lost the election, according to everyone except our press. Even Moussavi and Israel have admitted it.

2. The US attempt to establish a beachhead in Georgia was well known, as was the ethnic cleansing in the "break away provinces." These provinces are actually sovereign nations handed to Georgia by Georgian dictator and all time villain Joseph Stalin, himself, a Georgian. This was done in the name of the War on Terror, but undoubtedly Georgia didn't want to give up any of Georgia to a US military base.

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Wednesday, February 10, 2010 10:38 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Bit of necroposting here. Geezer and Finn were busy blasting the invasion of Russia into South Ossetia, jumping in with judgements before all (or even some) of the facts were known, imputing all of the things to Russia which we (in fact) were doing: fomenting instability, ignoring elected results etc. It has since become WIDELY KNOWN that GEORGIA ATTACKED S OSSETIA.

I was right- Geezer was wrong. Just sayin'.

Quote:
During the night of 7 to 8 August 2008, Georgia launched a large-scale military attack against South Ossetia, in an attempt to reconquer the territory.

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Saturday, August 24, 2024 11:29 AM

Georgia goes ‘North Korea’ with bombshell plan to ban main opposition parties

https://www.politico.eu/article/georgia-opposition-ban-georgian-dream-
party-election-eu-enlargement-irakli-kobakhidze/

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Saturday, November 16, 2024 3:35 PM