Issues Challenge by Geezer

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Issues Challenge

POSTED BY: GEEZER
UPDATED: Monday, September 1, 2008 09:47
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Monday, September 1, 2008 4:10 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Let's discuss the issues in the Presidential platforms.

The Challenge is to do so in a polite, respectful manner, without insults; to the candidates or to each other.

I'll start.

Looking at the Issues section of Sen. Obama's website, http://www.barackobama.com/issues/ I see a lot of proposals which will require additional spending - from adding almost 100,000 people to the military, to universal health care, to investing $150 billion in renewable energy over five years, to funding No Child Left Behind. At the same time he wants to "...enforce pay-as-you-go (PAYGO) budgeting rules which require new spending commitments or tax changes to be paid for by cuts to other programs or new revenue.", and raise taxes on the rich and corporations. I'm concerned that, depending on how much money Sen. Obama's programs need, the definition of 'rich' may slide down the income scale a bit. I'm also concerned that increased taxes on corporations will just get passed on to the consumer as higher prices; something we don't need right now.

On the other hand, Sen. McCains stand on Roe v. Wade disturbs me. http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/

As an aside, compare the issues listed on both sites and see what doesn't show up in both.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, September 1, 2008 7:35 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

My problem in choosing a candidate this time around stems from guns and gold.

On the Democratic side, we have candidates who are going to raise taxes (gold) to fund social improvement projects. Some of these projects appeal to me, and some of them do not. During a time when my wallet is too light already, I expect to feel a tighter squeeze. Because corporations are also likely to be squeezed, I have increased fear of a cost-cutting layoff. On the bright side, I suppose some of these social improvement projects will benefit me when I am jobless.

The Democrats also want my guns. Obama and his VP nominee are staunch gun-control advocates. They even want to eliminate legal concealed carry. I hate having my guns regulated in rediculous ways (aka Assault Weapons Ban), and I despise being told that I'm not competent to carry them. I am always very concerned about a government that fears me, its lawful citizen.

VS.

The Republicans, on the other hand, have shown what I consider to be fiscal irresponsibility. We have spent money at an accelerated rate while entangling ourselves in what appear to be unnecessary foreign conflicts. I worry that this policy will continue under Mccain, and that no matter how robust an economy can theoretically be when it's not extensively tampered with, it can not sustain the bloodletting of currency and our ever increasing debt. I fear that the Republican fiscal platform will catastrophically sink the economy because we aren't finding ways to pay for our excessive spending.

On the bright side, the Republicans will let me keep my guns. So when the economy completely collapses and there are riots in the street, I will be able to defend myself and my family.

It really isn't a cheery choice for me. Not at all.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, September 1, 2008 8:41 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

My problem in choosing a candidate this time around stems from guns and gold.

On the Democratic side, we have candidates who are going to raise taxes (gold) to fund social improvement projects. Some of these projects appeal to me, and some of them do not. During a time when my wallet is too light already, I expect to feel a tighter squeeze. Because corporations are also likely to be squeezed, I have increased fear of a cost-cutting layoff. On the bright side, I suppose some of these social improvement projects will benefit me when I am jobless.

The Democrats also want my guns. Obama and his VP nominee are staunch gun-control advocates. They even want to eliminate legal concealed carry. I hate having my guns regulated in rediculous ways (aka Assault Weapons Ban), and I despise being told that I'm not competent to carry them. I am always very concerned about a government that fears me, its lawful citizen.

VS.

The Republicans, on the other hand, have shown what I consider to be fiscal irresponsibility. We have spent money at an accelerated rate while entangling ourselves in what appear to be unnecessary foreign conflicts. I worry that this policy will continue under Mccain, and that no matter how robust an economy can theoretically be when it's not extensively tampered with, it can not sustain the bloodletting of currency and our ever increasing debt. I fear that the Republican fiscal platform will catastrophically sink the economy because we aren't finding ways to pay for our excessive spending.

On the bright side, the Republicans will let me keep my guns. So when the economy completely collapses and there are riots in the street, I will be able to defend myself and my family.

It really isn't a cheery choice for me. Not at all.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

Valid concerns, but I'm not sure you're really giving them the full benefit of reason.

1) Gold - I think at this point in our history, it's a safe bet that NO MATTER WHO IS IN POWER, your taxes are going to go up. Somehow, some way, the government is going to get more of your money. Why? Because we've spent ourselves down a deep, dark well. If we added NO new programs or services, and even if we cut back on existing ones, there's still that pesky problem of trillions of dollars of debt to pay down Simply paying the interest on it is hard enough at this point.

I know every candidate says they're going to cut taxes, or at the very least not raise them, but time and again we've seen them break those promises while explaining that we were naive to think that we could keep going without raising taxes. The candidates play us for fools, and we act surprised when we're made fools of...

Bottom line: Your taxes are going up. Whether you call them taxes or "fees", get ready to pay more. To put it into perspective, what we've been doing on a national scale the past several years amounts to relying more heavily on our credit cards for purchases, while paying only the minimum monthly payments AND making less to boot. There's a limit to how long it can go on, and today is pretty much that limit.

2) The Democrats want your guns. That's fine. They can want them all they want. Can they GET them? That's the question. I don't really worry overly much about the Dems knocking on my door to confiscate my weapons. Why? Because of this little thing called the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America. It says I have the right to keep and bear arms, and the Supreme Court agrees.

Does that mean that the government won't try to close loopholes to try to keep guns out of the hands of those who truly shouldn't have them? Oddly, I don't have a huge problem with people not having guns who shouldn't have them. But I'd rather see more emphasis on punishing criminals who use guns, rather than making criminals out of those who own guns.

The Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 was garbage, pure and simple. It didn't do a single thing to stop anyone from getting their hands on an assault rifle. What it DID do was make it illegal to IMPORT "assault rifles", while making it completely legal to buy U.S.-made ones. So it was jingoistic economic protectionism cloaked in the sheep's clothing of "safety". No one in this country was one whit safer under that mess of a bill - but lots of folk got rich off it!

3) On the bright side, the Republicans will let you keep your guns... Don't count on that. Did you know that during the last Congressional session, an expanded version of that same Assault Weapons Ban was introduced in the U.S. House of Representatives? Worse yet, did you know that it was sponsored by four REPUBLICAN Congressmen? True fact.

Don't rely on the Republicans to look out for your gun rights. WHEN (not "if") a new AWB comes into being, the stuff you've got will likely be grandfathered in, so it's probably a pragmatic move to stock up now. Why do you think I've been buying up weapons recently? I'd pay particular attention to Eastern Bloc weaponry (especially with deteriorating relations with Russia), with an eye towards odd stuff that will be easy to ban, such as the Romanian PSL (Dragunov knockoff) sniper rifle, any AK variant with a folding stock, and anything with more than 10 rounds capacity. I've got friends who are stocking up on AR-15s, which I think is silly, because they are American-made, and will thus be "safe" assault rifles to have.

I'll be back later with my own issues...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Monday, September 1, 2008 8:43 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
I am always very concerned about a government that fears me, its lawful citizen.

I ain't - I'd be concerned about a Government that did NOT fear it's lawful citizens cause they've been disarmed, and trained to meek obediance for a hundred years and more.

But that'd never happ...oh, wait...
Errr..

-F
"People shouldn't be afraid of their Governments, Governments should be afraid of their People."

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Monday, September 1, 2008 8:59 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
I've got friends who are stocking up on AR-15s, which I think is silly, because they are American-made, and will thus be "safe" assault rifles to have.

*wince*

Hope they like having to break out the cleaning kit and perform a second order malfunction repair every fifteen rounds or so...

The money and paper changed hands a while ago off the bonus from taking some execs to a convention, but my AK is still physically in the guys safe cause I been too lazy to go collect it.

Good ole fashioned Korean war relic, chinese red star com-bloc AK-47, complete with that hideous looking wooden stock.

Apparently it's original owner had leaned it up against a tree while taking a leak - and, umm, won't be needin it no more.

Only thing uglier than a Red Star Combloc is a damn MAK-90

-F

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Monday, September 1, 2008 9:21 AM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

1) Gold - I think at this point in our history, it's a safe bet that NO MATTER WHO IS IN POWER, your taxes are going to go up.

This is not necessarily true. The best way to look at the national debt is by comparing it to Gross Domestic Product. As a percentage of GDP the national dept is high but it has been higher at other times is US history http://zfacts.com/p/318.html . The way to reduce the national dept is to first balance the budget, then reduce non essential spending. If you do that and the economy continues to grow, the Debt will take care of itself as it has previously in history.

Quote:

2) The Democrats want your guns. That's fine. They can want them all they want. Can they GET them? That's the question. I don't really worry overly much about the Dems knocking on my door to confiscate my weapons. Why? Because of this little thing called the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America. It says I have the right to keep and bear arms, and the Supreme Court agrees.

I don't believe there is a lot of difference between the average Democrat an Republican voter when it comes to guns. All of my Democrat friends are as pro-gun as I am. The problem is that the Dems that run for office tend to be from the anti-gun side of the party. If Kerry had been elected instead of Bush, and been able to nominate a few liberal judges to the court, the recent 5 to 4 decision in Heller vs DC would have almost surely have gone the other way. One of the most important reasons I now usually vote Republican is because I want to keep legislative powers in the congress where they belong and the Dem's love to use the courts to circumvent the will of the people.

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Monday, September 1, 2008 9:47 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Only thing uglier than a Red Star Combloc is a damn MAK-90

Hey now - no need to be mean! :)

I only say that because I recently picked up a Norinco MAK-90. Fortunately for me, the previous owner that gotten rid of that gawd-awful wood thumbhole stock and replaced it with a FiberForce skeleton stock and vented handguards. I like it. And it's one of the better-made AKs around.

My late father had an early AR-15 in his collection, and I was offered it. It's collectible, it's worth money - but I chose his FN/FAL .308 as the better choice. :)

Meanwhile, back to the issues...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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