The 2nd Amendment by HKCavalier

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"My rifle is my best friend."
That strikes me as hyperbole. If not, then it's just a tad delusional.

"I must master it as I master my life."
A rifle is a poor substitute for having a real life. And btw, you can master a life without a rifle.

"Without my rifle, I am useless."
Well, I'd more say that without the people who fed you and kept you clean and warm and alive when you were helpless; who taught you to walk and speak, and read and write and do math; who created a society that makes possible all the things you take for granted - you WOULD be useless. But without a gun, you're just a person without a gun.

"My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life."
UUhhhm, OK. Forget air, water, food and shelter then. Again, if I may point out the over-wrought and essentially irrational nature of the statement.

"... until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but Peace."
I'm sure they didn't intend for it to read this way -- but Peace is an enemy ? Pardon if I take this as a bit of unintended humor.

So, I get it. This is supposed to bring up all sorts of deep feelings of loyalty and love, and no one who reads this is supposed to think - they just gotta' FEEL.

And what do I feel reading this ? Anyone who takes this seriously as a creed by which to live is just a little scrambled in the head.

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Silence is consent.

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Saturday, September 13, 2008 7:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
ALWAYS subject to its control ? Like right now ? Or just potentially-should-anyone-bother-to subject to its control ?

I could call my neighbors the fire brigade --- why not ? They could be that, should they ever decide to. I could call my family the rulers of earth --- why not ? It could happen some day. You could call yourself and your buds a militia --- why not ? It's not under government control yet, but hey, maybe someday it might be.

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OR , we could call an organization something really clever , like 'Civilian Marksmanship Training' ,
get ourselves a bunch of Army-surplus rifles , and teach young'uns how to properly handle and shoot those firearms...

Even let 'em take 'em home...

Would that satisfy your Constitutional concerns , Rue ?

Or , would they still be a bunch of 'gangstas' to you ?

http://www.thecmp.org

Silence is consent.

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Saturday, September 13, 2008 7:23 PM

Rue, the Rifleman's Creed is standard at Marine Corps boot camp. It's part of the learning, the indoctrination.

And when you are a Marine in combat, your rifle and your fellow Marines are the absolute only things in this world of shit that you can count on to save your ass. There's you, your rifle, and your squad, and if you don't function seamlessly as a unit, you are going to die.

It's ugly, but it's true.

For me, a rifle is simply a tool. But for a Marine, it's life itself. You lose your rifle in combat, and you are not coming home except in a box. It's that simple.

Is it barbaric? Yes. Unfortunately, it's also sometimes necessary.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Saturday, September 13, 2008 7:25 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Mike

I know that, but some seem to think it should apply to all civilians in peace time. And anyone who doesn't get with their program should just leave.

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Silence is consent.

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Saturday, September 13, 2008 7:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Rue , if all this makes you so uncomfortable , surely a charitable collection can be established in your behalf to buy
a one-way ticket for you , to some place of your choosing...

Provided you promise to never come back , of course...

Okay, that's an idea I *WON'T* subscribe to: the old "if you don't like it, leave" argument. This nation was founded on disagreement, often violent, and is supposed to FOSTER rational debate and protection of even the most unpopular ideas. In fact, its protections are MOST important to unpopular ideas and speech, because popular ones need no protection from the mob.

I fully support Rue's right to debate valid points here, or anywhere else. We may not agree, but surely we can take advantage of this opportunity to both learn from and educate each other.

Mike

Then you should not be so critical of Pirate News , or join in the affray when others attack him...We may dissent from his views , but he certainly has a right to express them in this forum...Seems there have been a lot of recent , and virulent , calls for his 'banishment'.

Free speech is for everyone...I defend it for one and all...Same with freedom of religion , freedom of conscience , freedom to peaceably assemble , etc.

Charitable giving , I also support , particularly if it would assist someone in being happier , or in making what they perceive to be a better life somewhere else...

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Saturday, September 13, 2008 7:30 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Mike

"And can you point out one specific example of when I *WASN'T* subject to government control?"

What you're missing is that you are calling unorganized strangers under no one's direction a militia. They are not organizing themselves as a VFD would do, or making themselves available by name to the government (at any level), or creating a chain of command or communication with the government or each other, or indeed doing anything that anyone might construe as coming under government regulation, as individuals or a group (regulation here being used in two senses - rules, and being changed from being irregular into something symmetric or evenly paced).

And if they are not subject to government organization and orders for military or policing purposes, then how can they be a militia ? How would YOU distinguish them from criminals or a mob ?

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Saturday, September 13, 2008 7:45 PM

Quote:

And if they are not subject to government organization and orders, then how can they be a militia ? How would YOU distinguish them from criminals or a mob ?

Because the U.S. Code defines them as such:

Quote:

§ 311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

How would I distinguish them from criminals? Because they aren't doing anything illegal. Does that count? If they're not criminals, that should distinguish them from criminals.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Saturday, September 13, 2008 7:46 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Anyway - it's pretty late here and really late there.

So goodnight and see you all whenever.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Saturday, September 13, 2008 7:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Anyway - it's pretty late here and really late there.

So goodnight and see you all whenever.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

Kismet! I was just thinking the same thing. I'll try not to shoot anything in my sleep. ;)

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

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Saturday, September 13, 2008 7:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

What you're missing is that you are calling unorganized strangers under no one's control a militia. They are not organizing themselves as a VFD would do, or making themselves available by name to the government (at any level), or creating a chain of command or communication with the government or each other, or indeed doing anything that anyone might construe as coming under government regulation, as individuals or a group (regulation here being used in two senses - rules, and being changed from being irregular into something symmetric or evenly paced).

And if they are not subject to government organization and orders, then how can they be a militia ? How would YOU distinguish them from criminals or a mob ?

Firstly , because they're neither criminals , nor a mob...

You've been shown the law codes that define the unorganized Militia , but you've chosen to ignore them...

My dictionary defines 'militia' as being:

" a body of citizen soldiers , as distinguished from professional soldiers..."

Since you also mentioned 'Minuteman' a bit earlier , here goes: ,

" one of a group of American militiamen just before and during the Revolutionary War who held themselves in readiness for instant military service..."

Remember , no militia , no Revolution , no United States of America...

" What you're missing is that you are calling unorganized strangers under no one's control a militia . "

Ironic , that's exactly what King George thought !

Point of fact , he considered them 'a mob' , and 'gangsters' , too .

So shall it always be , to a tyrant...

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Saturday, September 13, 2008 7:54 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Mike

Oh drat, we cross-posted.

So, you are using a subordinate regulation which conflicts with the clear language of the 2nd amendment as your basis. I don't buy it.

If they are NOT a militia by reason of failing to be well-regulated, then there is no basis for them to have guns, and they then are doing something illegal - and are therefore criminals. You also didn't answer about how you could distinguish them from a mob.

Anyway, I won't be back for a few days, so if you reply make sure to 'notify' so I know to get back to this.

Have a good one.

And please, yes - don't shoot anything in your sleep ! (Though it's OK if it's in your dreams.

)

good night all ...

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Saturday, September 13, 2008 11:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

I see hundreds of millions of us. Who's to say what "well-regulated" is, and how do you come to the conclusion that we're not?

Just askin'. :)

Frem brought up a number of links where the original writers of the constitution did just that.

It included officers and drilling.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, September 14, 2008 2:19 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
OK, DOES ANYONE HERE WHO PACKS IRON *NOT* HAVE A MOSIN-NAGANT ?!

That would be me. They're not lefty-friendly at all, and besides, I can't shoot them at my local range at Quantico Marine base where all Soviet bloc rounds are banned due to some safety problems they've had with steel core surplus ammo.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, September 14, 2008 5:40 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"My rifle is my best friend."
That strikes me as hyperbole. If not, then it's just a tad delusional.

I can remember one instance where my rifle, along with an M2 machine gun on a gun truck, was truly my best friend. It prevented a gentleman who wanted to shoot an RPG at me from doing so.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, September 14, 2008 5:47 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Seriously. What a crock.

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Silence is consent.

The Highest CONTROL , the Highest Authority , would be the Constitution itself , and its Second Amendment...

Anything that Abrogates THAT , or attempts to , is " an enemy , Foreign OR Domestic..."

In which case , a MARKED TARGET...

Self-preservation rights are Inalienable...

An Inalienable Endowment...

Rue , if all this makes you so uncomfortable , surely a charitable collection can be established in your behalf to buy
a one-way ticket for you , to some place of your choosing...

Provided you promise to never come back , of course...

Ok that is completely out of order and absolutely sophomoric.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

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Sunday, September 14, 2008 6:23 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Rue, I get what you're saying: People citing the 2nd amendment are misinterpreting its intent. And that may very well be. But the reality is, I'll hang on to that misinterpretation- or interpretation (however one chooses to look at it) because I am increasingly mistrustful of my government. I look at widespread gun ownership as a "necessary but not sufficient" factor in keeping "the government" in place.

Yes, there are many factors that must be in place before a viable resistance comes into being. One of them is widespread recognition that government has overstepped its bounds. Given the reaction to "Don't tase me, bro!" I don't see that recognition coming any time soon. Another is communication and organization. Again, our mythology of "rugged individualism" and "the hero" prevents us from acting collectively... a fatal flaw. And yes, many people cling to (what they view as) their 2nd amendment rights IN PLACE OF doing anything meaningful about freedom... or even thinking about it in any real way. Their gun is their substitute, and perhaps their delusion.

But most of the avid gun owners here are not "gun nuts". They HAVE thought about freedom.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Sunday, September 14, 2008 7:04 AM

Quote:
I look at widespread gun ownership as a "necessary but not sufficient" factor in keeping "the government" in place.

Finally, some reason!

Yeah, that's what I been sayin all along - while not the only factor, it certainly *IS* a factor.

Quote:
I don't see that recognition coming any time soon.

Alas, neither do I, but you know, on recognition of Government overstepping, we're well ahead of the game as opposed to say, ten years ago.

Half the stuff I can outright prove with public record in hand would have been dismissed out of hand back then, people these days are FAR more willing to do at least a minimum of self-investigation, and the internet has been a serious blessing in that respect.

Quote:
Another is communication and organization. Again, our mythology of "rugged individualism" and "the hero" prevents us from acting collectively... a fatal flaw.

If ever a myth needed smashing, it's that one, yeah...
Don't sit around waiting for a hero, become one - and if that's too much for ya, then be a villan, but get the job done, at least TRY.

That's one of my issues with religion, matter of fact - sure, go ahead and pray, you wanna do that, couldn't hurt none, but while you're doin it, put those hands in action helping out.

Maybe it's cause I don't have a lotta faith in anything, but it's always rooked me to see a congregation of people entirely sufficient to FIX a neighborhoods problems if they stood up and acted on it, sitting in church praying for a solution they could BE if they just tried.

Quote:
And yes, many people cling to (what they view as) their 2nd amendment rights IN PLACE OF doing anything meaningful about freedom... or even thinking about it in any real way. Their gun is their substitute, and perhaps their delusion.

I had to deal with a couple of those during the FLDS fiasco, you might recall me mentioning it - the weapon is an item of last resort, cause if you DO get into a full-on exchange of lead with the powers that be, you ain't walkin away.

Far smarter, and far better, to hack them off at the knees BEFORE it comes to a firefight, by preserving the rights that prevent them from initiating one with you in the first place.

Firearms and the right to possess them are but one small piece of a much larger defense, but I do believe they are a needful and critical part of the greater whole, because to give ground there is to encourage other encroachments, and if they ever do succeed in fully suppressing or destroying that right, anyone with half a brain knows they won't stop there - at which point they'll go down like dominos because the threat to them has so significantly lessened.

But the First and Fourth are every bit as important as the Second, to successfully defend ONE, you have to defend them ALL, otherwise what's the point ?

Quote:
But most of the avid gun owners here are not "gun nuts". They HAVE thought about freedom.

Exactly, one reason I don't like being filed in what I'll refer to as the armed-clueless category.

Every right in the list, as well as many that are not specifically ennumerated but supposed to be protected anyhow - it present for a reason, all part of an interlocking whole we call freedom.

But those ON the list, are there for a very specific set of reasons, codified intentionally to pre-empt even the attempt to revoke our freedoms simply by raising the bar of difficulty in doing so, and as a tripwire to make it abundantly clear when the Gov is stepping on turf it should not.

To give ground here - is a serious mistake and an encouragement to further encroachments, like I said above, and while many people will stand up swiftly and strongly for the First and Fourth, the powers that be and a compliant media bordering on, if not meeting the classic definition of a propaganda machine, has demonised the Second and buried in negative connotations in order to discourage it's defense by painting all that defend it as unstable, violent, etc.

And we're well on our way to that same treatment of the Fourth, what with the insinuations that anyone who desires that the Gov respect it has "something to hide" etc...

Not to mention the First, but thankfully the more recent attempts to assail it have met with little success cause they so overplayed their hand.

My intent by such a rabid defense of the Second isn't so much for the sake of the right itself, but to get folk thinking, involved, maybe even anger or annoy them into taking some initiative - cause truthfully, I would rather have the half-hearted and offhand support of a million folk, than the rabid devotion of a hundred.

And if they're talkin about it, they're thinkin about it - and if they're thinking about it, thus increases the chance they might act, even in a half-hearted, off-hand fashion.

And that is for damn sure better than nothing.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, September 14, 2008 7:08 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Amen Frem.

"We have an accord. Arrrgh."

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Sunday, September 14, 2008 7:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
I don't see that recognition coming any time soon.

Alas, neither do I, but you know, on recognition of Government overstepping, we're well ahead of the game as opposed to say, ten years ago.

Half the stuff I can outright prove with public record in hand would have been dismissed out of hand back then, people these days are FAR more willing to do at least a minimum of self-investigation, and the internet has been a serious blessing in that respect.

Revolutions tend to occur when a population is materially uncomfortable, it usually takes more than simply an overbearing government, and certainly more than nasty things being done to people a long way away. While people have plenty of beer, TV and the latest consumer gadget, your unlikely to see any popular anti-government movements.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, September 14, 2008 7:44 AM

RIGHTEOUS9

I have always been conlicted on the issue of the second amendment. In principle, I believe in it,

both for the purpose of signifying the right to self-defense, and as an oh shit measure if we lose too much control of our government.

That said, I"m generally not inclined to have a negative opinion of laws that require background checks, of laws that look at criminal records etc...and I'm not so keen on any crazy motherfucker going into a gun store and coming out with a bazooka, nor do assault weapons bans completely bother me.

I also very much understand how both criminal records and background checks can be used unjudiciously by a police state,

so I'm still thinking where most of our energy should go, is in controling our government, and not letting it get out of line.

I guess the counter argument to that is that gun restrictions are evidence of a government getting out of line, but I'd disagree, on the condition that that was what an informed electorate wanted, which I'm not sure we have now.

..............

As a matter of symbolic resistance to tyranny, I think a weapon of any sort can have power, because small acts of resistance that have an actual impact, even if that impact is killing some poor shmo who was just doing his job as part of the police force(talking about police state here), can be a convincing message that resistance isn't entirely futile, and can galvanize a populace.

I'm not sure that that is preferrable to peaceful resistance on a large scale, but I'm not sure that peaceful resistance works without its counterpoint either.

...............

But as to the interpretation of the second amendment, and as to its legal ramifications, I thnk the question comes down to where do we draw the line? Who gets to week out who gets guns? How powerful are the weapons that individuals or groups should be allowed to own if they can procure them?

Should bunker busters be par for the course? (I know they're a gazillion dollars),

Should weapons that can potentally take out 20 or 30 people on a bad day be given blindly over to people who will use them in that way?

Would everybody having a gun really offset that?

Would every homeowners association having a bunker buster be a good idea? Should we all have a bazooka in our trunk, or at least have the right to it? How about a saw on the top of your jeep?

What about grenades? Landmines for property protection?

...............

My question is, mostly for the libretarians, where is the line of regulation, or do you believe there should be no line?

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Sunday, September 14, 2008 8:35 AM

Well, imma Anarchist, so I don't really draw a line, per se.

Anything larger than man-portable however, I am not completely opposed to the idea of the manufacturer being held responsible for who they sell it to as a matter of general public safety - let THEM do the background check with the clients full permission and vet their purchasers as a condition of insurance liability, yes ?

Anything smaller, simply make certification with an acknowledged safety and use course a condition of sale.

Everybody's happy and the world is safer by that much, without the Government and it's untrustworthy, greedy, grasping hands all over the process, simpler too.

And since this thread really needs a dose of humor...
http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=8

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, September 14, 2008 8:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:

That said, I"m generally not inclined to have a negative opinion of laws that require background checks, of laws that look at criminal records etc...and I'm not so keen on any crazy motherfucker going into a gun store and coming out with a bazooka...

We already have those. I don't think any of us here (except Frem, for his own valid reasons) are advocating doing away with those requirements.

Quote:

...nor do assault weapons bans completely bother me.

Maybe they should. They aren't actually aimed at anything in particular, and they don't really accomplish anything at all. At least, they *haven't*. Actually, I'd be doing a lot better, monetarily, if another AWB came into existence, because the stuff I already legally own would quadruple in value.

AWBs don't make my current stuff illegal - they simply put a moratorium on importing more of the same. You can still buy and sell all the AK47s and the like that you want; you just can't import more. So it becomes a seller's market.

Quote:
I also very much understand how both criminal records and background checks can be used unjudiciously by a police state,

so I'm still thinking where most of our energy should go, is in controling our government, and not letting it get out of line.

In other words, don't just watch the law-abiding citizens, but also watch the watchers. That's a start. And please note that we already HAVE plenty of laws to deal with gun criminals. Also note that they are rarely enforced, or are enforced haphazardly at best.

Quote:
I guess the counter argument to that is that gun restrictions are evidence of a government getting out of line, but I'd disagree, on the condition that that was what an informed electorate wanted, which I'm not sure we have now.

When it comes to the Second Amendment, what we have now is absolutely not an informed electorate. That includes myself; seems like almost every day I learn something about the 2nd that explodes some of my preconceived liberal myths...

..............

Quote:
As a matter of symbolic resistance to tyranny, I think a weapon of any sort can have power, because small acts of resistance that have an actual impact, even if that impact is killing some poor shmo who was just doing his job as part of the police force(talking about police state here), can be a convincing message that resistance isn't entirely futile, and can galvanize a populace.

I'm not sure that that is preferrable to peaceful resistance on a large scale, but I'm not sure that peaceful resistance works without its counterpoint either.

No way am I going to advocate firing on police doing their legal jobs. Now, if you want to make a case for someone putting a few rounds through a traffic camera or a photoradar unit, that might be a different argument.

...............

Quote:
But as to the interpretation of the second amendment, and as to its legal ramifications, I thnk the question comes down to where do we draw the line? Who gets to weed out who gets guns? How powerful are the weapons that individuals or groups should be allowed to own if they can procure them?

Should bunker busters be par for the course? (I know they're a gazillion dollars),

We have laws and weapons classifications for those things already in effect. You should look into subjects like NFA Class III weapons and the like. Did you know that you can legally own a full-auto machinegun, a silencer, a sawed-off shotgun, a MAC-10 machine pistol, and the like, as long as you pay the BATF a $200 bribe for the appropriate tax stamp?

Quote:
Should weapons that can potentally take out 20 or 30 people on a bad day be given blindly over to people who will use them in that way?

When you say "weapons that can potentially take out 20 or 30 people," are you speaking of cars? They can do that, easily. Matter of fact, one Mercedes-Benz took out over 150 people in France some years ago, and it wasn't rigged with any kind of explosive device or even built with that intention. Just a careless accident...

Quote:
Would every homeowners association having a bunker buster be a good idea?

Don't HOAs already have enough power over you? ;)

Quote:
Should we all have a bazooka in our trunk, or at least have the right to it? How about a saw on the top of your jeep?

As for bazookas, I'd say "No"; with a gun, collateral damage is *possible* - with a bazooka it's a certainty. Ditto landmines and grenades.

A SAW on top of your jeep? Well, as long as you own it legally and are responsible with it, I don't have a major issue with it, except for the above-mentioned collateral damage - you ARE going to hit things other than what you're aiming at, and those things (including people) are going to be damaged.

Now, a SAW at a shooting range? No problemo.

Quote:
What about grenades? Landmines for property protection?

Again, collateral damage comes into play. What about dynamite? What about fertilizer? What about fuel oil?

I'm not yelling or screaming in disagreement on any particular point; just trying to show some different points of view on them.

Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

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Sunday, September 14, 2008 8:41 AM

An accord indeed, Siggy.
Yarrr!

Citizen, have you SEEN gas prices today ?

I told you this would be their undoing, and I've little doubt that some time down the road, it will be.

Cause not only do you get hit at the pump, you get hit at the grocery store, department store, anything that is shipped by road or rail, those increased costs get passed to you to pay.

The average comfort level is dropping pretty quick, especially when you combine escalating inflation and the dollars value plummeting in addition to prices spiking - that HURTS, seriously.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, September 14, 2008 12:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:

I see this issue as very black and white. The 2nd amendment is there so Americans can defend themselves on thier property from whatever they percieve as a mortal threat. Specificity about what is an appropriate threat, and specificity about the appropriate weapon serves only to complicate...

The 2nd amendment is there so that they (meaning us) could raise a militia.

Right !

Can't raise 'em if you ain't got 'em !

The militia , whether formally organized , or otherwise classified 'unorganized' , stand as a 'ready reserve' for the defense of Constitutional Liberty...

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Sunday, September 14, 2008 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
An accord indeed, Siggy.
Yarrr!

Citizen, have you SEEN gas prices today ?

Yeah, they're less than half what I pay. No revolution kicking off here either.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 3:49 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Gun control means using both hands."

Anywho, how many of you believe crime would drop significantly if we were all allowed to carry concealed (or open)? Would the teachers and/or students been able to stop the douche at Virginia Tech, had they all been carrying?

I will grant that the folks at Waco would, if they could, argue that having all the guns in the world doesn't mean crap if Big Brother is coming for you, but should this stop us?

Look at what is happening in Britain right now. They took all their guns, so people started using knives. The government took the knives, so people started using swords. They then took the swords, so people started using cricket bats. They took the bats, and now people are starting to use rocks, and bits of wood. Now, I hear from a friend there, that it will become a crime to be seen carrying wood or rocks of "signifigants size".

The government should fear us. They should be afraid that if they oppress us, we will drag them out into the streets and execute them. But are they? Not anymore.

The founders were right in that the government should always act from a position of terror. The government was never suppossed to get so big that it could truly affect everyones lives. It was always suppossed to be a small hub through which order could be created.

So, maybe we can't enact an EASY change with the guns we've got. but we can start fighting back, if need be. It may come to a point where we are righting another revolution, just like the FOunders did. With gurilla tactics and a whole lot of hope.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 3:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Look at what is happening in Britain right now. They took all their guns, so people started using knives. The government took the knives, so people started using swords. They then took the swords, so people started using cricket bats. They took the bats, and now people are starting to use rocks, and bits of wood. Now, I hear from a friend there, that it will become a crime to be seen carrying wood or rocks of "signifigants size".

You're friend is talking nonsense.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 4:17 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Britain sucks..

http://www.reason.com/news/show/28582.html

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Monday, September 15, 2008 4:38 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Look at what is happening in Britain right now. They took all their guns, so people started using knives. The government took the knives, so people started using swords. They then took the swords, so people started using cricket bats. They took the bats, and now people are starting to use rocks, and bits of wood. Now, I hear from a friend there, that it will become a crime to be seen carrying wood or rocks of "signifigants size".

I saw that movie...

H

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Monday, September 15, 2008 5:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Britain sucks..

http://www.reason.com/news/show/28582.html

Quite so...Quite so !

Bigtime suckage going on , across the pond...

No wonder , though , 'cause certain of their would-be "citizen(s)" can't seem to make their delusions square with the hard facts of reality :

http://dailypundit.com/?p=1462

" If it weren’t so utterly stupid - and so utterly predictable - this might actually be funny:

Doctors’ Kitchen Knives Ban Call

A team from West Middlesex University Hospital said violent crime is on the increase - and kitchen knives are used in as many as half of all stabbings.

Yep - that’s right - they’ve just about done away with any sort of firearms possession (by non-criminals, anyway), so now it’s time to start on all those other mean, harsh “offensive weapons”, beginning with those long, pointy kitchen knives.

The research is published in the British Medical Journal.

The researchers said there was no reason for long pointed knives to be publicly available at all…

…The study found links between easy access to domestic knives and violent assault are long established…

The researchers say legislation to ban the sale of long pointed knives would be a key step in the fight against violent crime…"

Predictably stupid...Yes , that does describe an average 'citizen' known to many of us hereabouts...

We'll allow him to remain anonymous , while he "rethinks" his position...

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Monday, September 15, 2008 6:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Britain sucks..

http://www.reason.com/news/show/28582.html

That article is misleading. There's more non-violent crime in Britain per capita, but a fraction of the US levels of violent crime. It's also not a trend that has changed much before or after the ban.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 6:16 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

I agree Out2.

I tend to ignore certain "citizens" since they are usually of the base, ignorant, whiney type.

These "citizens" never have anything intelligent to say. Nor do they show signs of ever being able to grow up.

Anyways, back to the 2nd amendment discussion...

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Monday, September 15, 2008 6:36 AM

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 6:59 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

In any case...what would be the best round be for an H&K .40?

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Monday, September 15, 2008 7:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
In any case...what would be the best round be for an H&K .40?

For what purpose? What are you using it for?

Plinking and just target shooting for fun - Full metal jacket, basic round. Usually cheapest. Not as good for home protection because (a) it usually goes all the way through a perp, and (b) continues through your walls, your neighbor's walls, and quite possibly your neighbor.

Home protection - Hollow point, shot shells, and the like. Great stopping power, less likely to actually go through interior or exterior walls, thus limiting collateral damage.

Now, if you absolutely have to kill someone, look into Hydra-Shok bullets and others "frangible" rounds - rounds that fragment when they hit. There are some that have a powdered metal core, than won't go through a 2x4, but WILL basically explode inside a "soft" target.

For myself, I generally keep a couple magazines loaded up with FMJ rounds for going to the range, and one with "staggered" rounds - alternate loads of FMJ, hollowpoint (HP), and Hydra-shok, stacked in that order. That's the home-defense mag - if the first one doesn't stop 'em, the second better. If it doesn't, the third should kill them dead.

Same kind of thing applies to shotguns - birdshot, buckshot, slug, repeat.

Just my suggestions...

Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 7:26 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

I have a lot of hydro-shock, but I was looking ton more of branding. I know that there are brands out there which are just plain garbage...

Alos, I try not to keep my clips full as I heard that this can weaken the spring. Is this true or more of a myth?

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Monday, September 15, 2008 7:40 AM

Myth. What weakens the spring is constant loading/unloading of the spring. You can keep mags full or empty with little to no difference in the life of the spring.

Brands? Hell, I like the Wolf black box ammo - I started using it for my 7.62x39, and it's so damned cheap AND doesn't jam, that I've started looking at it for other calibers as well.

CCI Blazer is one I stay away from. It just never has seemed to feed correctly in any gun I've put it through. More jams than not, in my experience.

The cheapie Winchester FMJ stuff at Wal-Mart is as good as any FMJ ammo I've found for the price. My 9mm Ruger gets an awful lot of that fed through it, and at less than $0.20 a round, it ain't expensive...

Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 9:54 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I do not agree with the very thinly veiled slights made against Citizen here. I disagree with him much of the time, but he at least presents thoughtful arguments and often finds sources to support them. He isn't stupid just because he has a different point of view.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, September 15, 2008 10:18 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I do not agree with the very thinly veiled slights made against Citizen here. I disagree with him much of the time, but he at least presents thoughtful arguments and often finds sources to support them. He isn't stupid just because he has a different point of view.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

LOL No comment.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 12:05 PM

Anthony: Right there with ya. A simple, "Shut up, Citizen" would have sufficed quite nicely.

And Wulfie - "LOL no comment" IS a comment.

Just sayin' is all...

Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 12:56 PM

Shucks, I love you guys too (just don't tell Chris, he gets jealous).

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 1:08 PM

Wolf is ok for AK's but it's a very "dirty" ammo and corrosive after firing, so you wanna clean up right away once you've fired a bunch of it.

It's cheap and effective, sure - but don't fire it and then let your weapon sit uncleaned, you'll regret it.

CCI is crap for anything beyond .22LR ammo.

The Winchester-walmart big boxes are pretty good for range ammo, so long as yer local walmart ain't a buncha pricks about it, and actually sell it.

(INSPECT IT BEFORE LOADING, Quality control ain't that hot, and I've seen missing primers, misloaded and deformed rounds, and even rounds of other caliber, etc....)

Some of em have a crapload of obscure rules about when, how and who they'll sell it to, and practically want a blood sample and DNA test before they hand it over.

But for your home defense load ?

Hands down, Corbon Pow'Rballs.

I been using this puny mousegun* for near 20 years now, and over that time I've tried many an ammunition in efforts to find the best balance of stopping power, reliable feeding, and accuracy - the powerball delivers on all three counts, all the time.

I'll even give you the exact specs for your own weapons box.

Corbon 40 S&W 135 Grain Powerball 20/Box
SPECIFICATIONS:
Mfg Item Num: PB40135/20
Category: AMMO CENTERFIRE
Caliber :40 S&W
Bullet Type :PWB
Bullet Weight :135 GR
Muzzle Energy :526 ft lbs
Muzzle Velocity :1325 fps
Rounds/box :20 Rounds Per Box, 25 Boxes Per Case

Yer lookin at $20-$25 a box, but for personal/home defense use, that's not a bad price at all, just use the cheap stuff for range ammo and practice.

If you doubt em, buy a box, soak a telephone book with the gardenhose and then go to your local outdoor range and put a few powerballs into it - you won't be doubtin no more.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

*Mousegun = .380 Colt Mustang, yeah, go ahead and laff, you wanna.

SIG P220 with.45 winchester hollowpoint vs. CORBON POW'RBALL

2 milk jugs, one walmart winchester, one corbon powerball.

Notice a difference?

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Monday, September 15, 2008 1:16 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

C'mon Frem,

I ain't gonna laff at a .380.

If you were using a .22...
Yeah I would chuckle.

I wouldn't laugh tho, if you had a .22 and all I had was my SpyderCo. Not that the SpyderCo is bad, mind...just that I doubt I would be fast enough to get in close to use it.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 1:18 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Anthony: Right there with ya. A simple, "Shut up, Citizen" would have sufficed quite nicely.

And Wulfie - "LOL no comment" IS a comment.

Just sayin' is all...

Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

Ok, Ok, but saying "No comment" is more mature than what I would like to say to certain "Citizen"s....hows that?

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Monday, September 15, 2008 2:00 PM

Quote:
Not that the SpyderCo is bad, mind...just that I doubt I would be fast enough to get in close to use it.

You'd be surprised.

Ever heard of the Tueller drill ?
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm

An assailant within seven YARDS of you has a damn good chance of getting at least one solid hit on you before you can put them away.

Which is kinda funny cause a perp scoping you out is gonna get much closer than that, there's been a few in my time that didn't take the hints of shadowdance positioning and continued their "interview" only to find me in their face with a deathgrip on their weapon-hand, a free left hand, and no sense of humor about it.
(My rig is crossdraw leftie, and I shoot equally well with either hand*)

At which point not a one hasn't taken the kind offer to pretend it never happened, cause I don't need the hassle and they don't need a hole in them.
Not like they got much choice given the positioning at the time, either.

*Item of note, for anyone pondering amibdextrous fire.

Firing a standard issue left handed is a good way to catch hot brass in the face unless you cant the weapon 30 degrees inside, and this is also why right handed "gangsta" style is ridiculous as well, cause it's a terrible way to hit something and a GREAT way to catch hot brass in the eyes.

My initial training was under the old Parallax system from a low-carry or half-hip position (See Also: Bill Jordan), which these days is referred to as FSA Point Shooting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_shooting

Ergo, I'm a lot less likely to catch hot brass in the face firing left handed than someone who uses a conventional system.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, September 15, 2008 6:03 PM

Quote:

Wolf is ok for AK's but it's a very "dirty" ammo and corrosive after firing, so you wanna clean up right away once you've fired a bunch of it.

It's cheap and effective, sure - but don't fire it and then let your weapon sit uncleaned, you'll regret it.

True enough. I tend to forget that not everyone cleans their weapons after firing. It's ingrained into me so much that I actually cringe when someone talks about not cleaning their AK for months on end. I know they're supposed to be able to take it, but I'm not sure *I*could stand it!!

Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 7:05 PM