Capital Offense by AnthonyT

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Capital Offense

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 10:05
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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 5:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

It would appear to me that Finn is arguing from this point of view:

[If there existed any remnant of WMD in Iraq, then the Administration was truthful and justified in all of there statements.]

The fact that these remnants were decade-plus leftovers from prior wars is unimportant to him.

The fact that Iraq had no active WMD program to develop and use WMD's in the future is unimportant to him.

There could have essentially been a room full of WWI era mustard gas in an old mud hut in the middle of the Iraqi desert, and he would point to it and say, "See? Justified."

And I suppose strictly speaking he'd be right. If you have two items in stock, and stack them one on top of the other, you can call it a stockpile. If you use government resources to store said item, you can call it an 'active government program.' And if this is your yardstick for government truth, you can be very easily satisfied.

I don't feel it is enough. Finn apparently disagrees. I don't think we'll be able to breach that gulf.

Why does stating the fact the stockpiles of WMDs being found in Iraq mean that someone must feel the war is justified? There are people here who admit these stockpiles, albeit begrudgingly and only if they can complain about the use of the word "stockpiles," yet they don't feel the Iraq war was justified. This is a perfectly reasonable position - what is not a reasonable positionable is the degree of ideology that I'm seeing coming from many of you. Most of you seem unable to accept the plain and obvious fact that WMDs were found in Iraq without becoming defensive. Why is that? I'll tell you why I think it is - because no matter how much you tell everyone else of the absolute certainty with which you cling to the ideology that you use to condemn the Bush administration, the truth is that you know that there is no way to justify that certainty. The evidence is inconclusive, and that leaves open the very real possibility that, regardless of how much we have not found, maybe the Bush administration wasn't all wrong - and intellectually, that scares you. So you stretch the truth, you parse words. They were degraded WMDs - maybe, but Mustard gas has a very long shelf life. And VX may stop being as lethal as it was designed to be, but it remains lethal indefinitely. Take a big whiff from a vile of VX that is degraded and supposedly harmless and see how long you live. Take a whiff of mustard gas, which as far as I know, doesn't degrade at all. Sarin gas degrades quickly, but I wouldn't smell it, would you? Some of you claim that there aren't enough of these weapons of MASS DESTRUCTION to be of concern? Since when do you need massive stockpiles of weapons of MASS DESTRUCTION to cause mass destruction - by definition that should only take one. And some of you claim that these weapons are just forgotten reminents - maybe, but maybe they are the tip of the iceberg well hidden or transported to out of Iraq. You parse words and claim that because the administration didn't spell things out with unerring precision that they are liars. These are the words of people who cannot examine the evidence impartially if they had to.

Okay, well its true that the administration has slanted things their way, just like you do, and they did so probably because they had made up their minds without conclusive evidence, just like you have. So let's be fair: if we are going to demand unerring precision from the Bush administration, then Iraq possessed stockpiles of WMDs and was in multiple material breech of Chapter 7 resolutions and had been for 10 years.

Of course, few of you will listen - maybe Anthony will, we'll see, but most of you will not, because you are too committed. You will not even allow yourself to accept the very real possibility that Iraq was a greater danger then you want to believe and that the administration was not without its valid reasons for doing what it did, even if those valid reasons don't constitute in every one's mind a justification.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 7:17 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
So you stretch the truth, you parse words.

So, speaking or parsing words... what would YOU call an imminent, mortal, unique, and growing threat????

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 7:30 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Since when do you need massive stockpiles of weapons of MASS DESTRUCTION to cause mass destruction - by definition that should only take one."

Hello,

I think where we have disconnected is that many people here seem to think of the few confirmed WMD's found less as weapons of mass destruction and more as weapons of mass distraction.

There were two stated and one unstated rationale for the Iraq war, In My Opinion (trademark).

Stated Rationale:

1) Saddam had an active WMD program, massive amounts of WMD stockpiled, and a potential willingness to arm our enemies.

2) Saddam was an asshole who tortured his own people and subjected them to unjust rulership. When we kick him out, his people will be fundamentally happier, freer, and safer.

Unstated Rationale:

3) We'll have access to oil cheaply in the future as a result of this justified action.

I can't speak for anyone else, but these were the three reasons I thought we were going to war. I was absolutely sold on item 1, somewhat sold on item 2, and secretly looking forward to item 3. (I can be honest.)

Item 1 fell apart fairly quickly. We weren't attacked by WMD, we didn't find 'hardly any' WMD, there was no evidence of an active WMD program, and shortly after this became apparent, the administration immediately began downplaying the WMD justification. Arguments can be made about how much the Administration knew, and how much they did or did not lie, but I don't think anyone can deny that the WMD situation was Not As Advertised. Justification 1 - Busted.

Item 2 fell apart soon after. I lost my faith when we started torturing people in the same torture facility that Saddam used to torture people. The irony of that should not be lost on anyone. Never mind the usual infrastructure damage and massive loss of civilian life that accompanies any war. I've seen no evidence that the life of your average Iraqi is currently better than it was before. This might be changing in the future, but that will be more them recovering than us improving their situation. For me, at least, Justification 2 - Busted. (You may disagree.)

Item 3 fell apart later. Oil and Gas prices are at an all time high. I don't think we can argue about this one. My unspoken Justification 3 - Busted.

I am now left without a viable justification for the war. I feel we were wrong to do it, and I feel badly for having supported the invasion. If I find us in a similar situation in the future, I don't think I'll be banging the war drum.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 9:27 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
For some strange reason, I keep misreading "stockpile" as "sockpile". Mmmm.... maybe my laundry is an imminent and growing threat!

Hell, if that classifies as WMD, one of my cats is in big trouble!

Squirmy, the three legged one, has a thing for socks, and whenever no one is looking, will steal one, run upstairs and stash it under my bed, where there's often a pretty decent pile given she's an itty bitty little thing and running the stairs back and forth to create it.

Me, I don't much care, cause metal leg and all, it's not like *I* have to match my socks anymore, but boy does it piss off Fremgirl to have a whole fistfull that don't match.
(This is what she gets for getting all fashion while Frem prefers "standard-issue"..)

So I wind up cartin em downstairs every morning and dumping them in a pile on top of the dryer.

As for the issue at hand - I done stated chapter and verse how it was gonna go from the instant we got involved in this mess, and was rather soundly blasted for it on quite a few occasions.

And now... here we are.

Aren't we ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 9:36 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

Oh, that explains it! You see, their either in church counting their money, or at their businesses counting their money...no time to pay attention to those political people harping on about wars and such.

Thats exactly what I needed, someone to explain to me what the right does during their party's most significant time of the year - the convention. One question, how do they know that our little Miss Sarah kicked Obama's butt? Especially if it's true that mostly Dems were watching Alaska's answer to Cheney. Does this mean that the right is actually listening to Dems
regarding politics? Oooooo, scary!

Soon you'll be telling me that dogs and cats will be living together. What's this world coming to?
I can't believe that people that want to see this country return to a time when the United States was well respected throughout the world, will be labeled left-thinking commies who spit on the flag and kill puppies. People, Americans mind you, who want to have a job and a few dollars in the bank, a house and send their kids to college without mortgaging the future, must suffer ridicule and scorn for holding out for some hope that things could get better. People that don't want to see their leaders fiddle while the country goes down in flames. Makes me sad really.
____________________________________________
People always assume that because the Conservative or Right-wing side is associated with money and wealth and capitalism that there would be a large number of Right-wing supporters, but the Right isn’t as political as the Left. The wealthy Right tends to be much more religious or economic, then political.
_____________________________________________

Shiny! Let's be bad guys!

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Wednesday, September 17, 2008 6:19 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You will not even allow yourself to accept the very real possibility that Iraq was a greater danger then you want to believe and that the administration was not without its valid reasons for doing what it did, even if those valid reasons don't constitute in every one's mind a justification.

I allowed for it, hell, I WANT to believe it, it would make my view of things so much simpler, spoon full of sugar and all that.
So they might have been a greater danger than I may believe- so what? Maybe they could have purchased a ballistic missile from Kazickstan to send us their mustard gas, they might have even landed it on U.S. soil somewhere...Alaska maybe...

Look, Bush got us into Afghanistan- good on him. Now if he'd kept his eyes on the prize, and told us the verifiable truth concerning Saddam on the side, we'd all be better off for it IMO. Yeah, Saddam was a creep, but the sudden rush to blast him was bourn of lies to push an agenda that did not concern terrorists or 9-11, and that's really what this is all about, in the end.

3,000 + American troops dead to push an agenda.
Our economy stretched to the breaking point to push an agenda.
Our moral high ground washed away from beneath us to push an agenda.

Look Finn, I'm not sayin' that understanding this view requires you to quit your job or anything, cripes, I buy gasoline from the PTB...we're all intertwined on a global level here, I'm just sayin' we all need to try an' see situations for what they are, and not so much what we'd like or need them to be.

Or are you down with the idea that the American peeps NEED to be lied to in order to achieve military goals? IMO, taking out Saddam covertly would have been the better choice to lying to the world to get this administration's way, and YOU don't parse words here, Finn, telling us all that Iraq WAS AN IMMINENT THREAT, or would be in the very near future based on incomplete & fishy evidence IS A LIE- it's like claiming you have a cure for AIDS when you've only had some promising results, and since YOU are so fond of being technical, I EXPECT you to see this one point, at least.

Or not. Suit yourself.

Oh crap...I said I was done arguing it with you...see, I like ya so much, I just can't stop tryin', I guess.

Persistentisall

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Wednesday, September 17, 2008 6:25 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I lost my faith when we started torturing people in the same torture facility that Saddam used to torture people.

That was one of the moments that truly saddened me, Anthony. I mean, almost made me cry tears saddened.

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 17, 2008 7:59 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:

I am now left without a viable justification for the war. I feel we were wrong to do it, and I feel badly for having supported the invasion. If I find us in a similar situation in the future, I don't think I'll be banging the war drum.

Thank you, Anthony, for an honest examination of your own feelings and justifications. Hell, part of me loved watching the invasion just to see shit get blown up - I can admit it, it's that same part of me that wants to see a massive accident at the Formula One race - and to HOPE that it wasn't going to blow up in our faces, as I feared it would.

Those of us who seem to harp on and on about the war and how unjust it is and was, we aren't doing it merely to hear ourselves talk. We're doing it IN HOPES OF never making that particular mistake again. We all know that this bell can't be unrung (or this war drum unbeaten), but hopefully we can keep it fresh enough in peoples' minds that we don't find ourselves mindlessly beating the war drum AGAIN in a year or two - especially when we hear that, well, "this time it's different".

It always is...

Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

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Wednesday, September 17, 2008 8:58 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I thought Finn was going to endlessly parse the word 'know' - as in, what does it mean to say 'I know'. Instead he diverted to 'stockpiles' for a while (how many does there need to be and how close together to be a 'stockpile' ?) and then abandoned the WMD argument entirely for - 'but he was a bad, dangerous guy so THERE !'

:flameout:

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, September 17, 2008 9:09 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I allowed for it, hell, I WANT to believe it, it would make my view of things so much simpler, spoon full of sugar and all that.
So they might have been a greater danger than I may believe- so what? Maybe they could have purchased a ballistic missile from Kazickstan to send us their mustard gas, they might have even landed it on U.S. soil somewhere...Alaska maybe...

Look, Bush got us into Afghanistan- good on him. Now if he'd kept his eyes on the prize, and told us the verifiable truth concerning Saddam on the side, we'd all be better off for it IMO. Yeah, Saddam was a creep, but the sudden rush to blast him was bourn of lies to push an agenda that did not concern terrorists or 9-11, and that's really what this is all about, in the end.

3,000 + American troops dead to push an agenda.
Our economy stretched to the breaking point to push an agenda.
Our moral high ground washed away from beneath us to push an agenda.

Or are you down with the idea that the American peeps NEED to be lied to in order to achieve military goals? IMO, taking out Saddam covertly would have been the better choice to lying to the world to get this administration's way, and YOU don't parse words here, Finn, telling us all that Iraq WAS AN IMMINENT THREAT, or would be in the very near future based on incomplete & fishy evidence IS A LIE- it's like claiming you have a cure for AIDS when you've only had some promising results, and since YOU are so fond of being technical, I EXPECT you to see this one point, at least.

I'm quite impressed with what you wrote. A real eye-opener in simple terms.

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Wednesday, September 17, 2008 10:05 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

I'm quite impressed with what you wrote.

I really appreciate the comment, Jong...usually I have trouble making sense of things, but I've had 10 hours sleep in the last three days, and the drowsy tends to switch off my loony.

Sleep-deprived Chrisisall

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