700 Billion Bailout by Wulfenstar

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

700 Billion Bailout

POSTED BY: WULFENSTAR
UPDATED: Sunday, September 8, 2024 11:33
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Sunday, September 21, 2008 6:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I do not like the transfer of unreviewable power to any department.

On the other hand, I would not like the transfer of power to any individual, either.

Can you imagine how you would feel if a law was passed that gave X power to "George Bush" instead of "the President?" We can always impeach the Pres, ya know? I'm sure we could replace the Treasury Secretary, too. But the only way to get rid of 'person Y' is to hire a hitman.

(I may be misunderstanding you, but...) I disagree in the sense that a governmental position is more permanent than a person. ie, the position of POTUS has been around for over 2 centuries and (barring disaster) isn't likely to go anywhere. On the other hand, if a particular president got evil and took all governmental power onto his/her personal self, he/she would likely be alive for 40 years tops and then things could reset.

In any case, I wasn't at all advocating that any kind of powers ever be given to a person, since I take it as obvious that that would be... well, stupid. I was just pointing out a weakness to KR's idea that this bill is okay because Paulson is a good guy. Laws should never based on one person, but allow for all those who may come after, good and bad.

Is my understanding anyway. I'm no political scholar. Just raised to believe that the Constitution is pretty cool.

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Sunday, September 21, 2008 10:32 AM

LEADB

Swish beat me to it. This legislation is worth throwing out for this reason alone "Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency."

If Paulson happens to get replaced for some reason, do you really think they'd change this law for the replacement? Nope. So, I'm 100% on the page Swish has detailed.

==
Having been gone for a few months, it's nice to see that some things never change. Finn's 'gay love' comment above would have amused me if I were not so utterly appalled at the situation we find ourselves in.

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Sunday, September 21, 2008 10:44 AM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by swish:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Normally this type of language would be a deal breaker in any legislation, but Hank Paulson is highly respected on both sides of the isle and in the financial community. He is also friends with the Chairman of the House Appropriations Committee (D)Barney Frank. Paulson has been in charge of a lot more money than this as Chief Executive Officer at Goldman Sachs and proved himself honest and capable.
One of the fundamental tenets of law-making, as I understand it, is to never ever justify laws based on a single personality. Do you really not see the danger in that?

As Sergeant says, this may not stay a temporary measure. (How about those "emergency acts" after 9/11? How much of those erosions in our freedom have gone away?) And please note - this bill gives power to the office of the "Treasury Secretary", not to "Hank Paulson". That office might be filled by god-knows-who someday. Do you really want to risk that? Even if this is allowed to expire, do you really want to set this kind of precedent, of giving dictatorial power, a complete free pass, to one individual?

Seems to me like every one here agrees that this is not a good thing, but if the alternative is a melt down of the financial system we really don't have much choice. As I was saying earlier, when it comes to the point that Money Market Funds become temporarily worth 97 cents on the dollar, a run on the banks is the almost inevitable next step. All the banks and brokerage houses could have gone under and that might not have forced the Feds hand, but when an investment that all believe to be entirely safe turns out not to be, people begin to panic. This is going to happen now no matter what, I'm just saying if it has to happen Paulson's the one you want in charge. If anyone alive can make this turn out positive for the taxpayers he's the man. Hopefully the legislation will be designed to sunset without super-majority approve every 6 month or so. If the Dems get the White House and hold congress you can be sure that they will try to perpetuate the program indefinitely.

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Sunday, September 21, 2008 5:01 PM

LEADB

Kirkules wrote: "but if the alternative is a melt down of the financial system we really don't have much choice."

Big 'if'. I like the approach detailed here:

http://hussmanfunds.com/wmc/wmc080922.htm

Leave the bondholders eat the loss from their capital reserves.

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Sunday, September 21, 2008 10:35 PM

FREMDFIRMA

But we are told that we need not fear; because those in power, being our representatives, will not abuse the powers we put in their hands. I am not well versed in history, but I will submit to your recollection, whether liberty has been destroyed most often by the licentiousness of the people, or by the tyranny of rulers. I imagine, sir, you will find the balance on the side of tyranny. Happy will you be if you miss the fate of those nations, who, omitting to resist their oppressors, or negligently suffering their liberty to be wrested from them, have groaned under intolerable despotism!

The honorable gentleman who presides told us that, to prevent abuses in our government, we will assemble in Convention, recall our delegated powers, and punish our servants for abusing the trust reposed in them. O sir, we should have fine times, indeed, if, to punish tyrants, it were only sufficient to assemble the people! Your arms, wherewith you could defend yourselves, are gone; and you have no longer an aristocratical, no longer a democratical spirit. Did you ever read of any revolution in a nation, brought about by the punishment of those in power, inflicted by those who had no power at all? You read of a riot act in a country which is called one of the freest in the world, where a few neighbors cannot assemble without the risk of being shot by a hired soldiery, the engines of despotism. We may see such an act in America.

In this scheme of energetic government, the people will find two sets of tax-gatherers — the state and the federal sheriffs. This, it seems to me, will produce such dreadful oppression as the people cannot possibly bear. The federal sheriff may commit what oppression, make what distresses, he pleases, and ruin you with impunity; for how are you to tie his hands? Have you any sufficiently decided means of preventing him from sucking your blood by speculations, commissions, and fees? Thus thousands of your people will be most shamefully robbed: our state sheriffs, those unfeeling blood-suckers have, under the watchful eye of our legislature, committed the most horrid and barbarous ravages on our people. It has required the most constant vigilance of the legislature to keep them from totally ruining the people; a repeated succession of laws has been made to suppress their iniquitous speculations and cruel extortions; and as often has their nefarious ingenuity devised methods of evading the force of those laws: in the struggle they have generally triumphed over the legislature.

Where I thought there was a possibility of such mischiefs, I would grant power with a niggardly hand; and here there is a strong probability that these oppressions shall actually happen. I may be told that it is safe to err on that side, because such regulations may be made by Congress as shall restrain these officers, and because laws are made by our representatives, and judged by righteous judges: but, sir, as these regulations may be made, so they may not; and many reasons there are to induce a belief that they will not. I shall therefore be an infidel on that point till the day of my death.

It is on a supposition that your American governors shall be honest, that all the good qualities of this government are founded; but its defective and imperfect construction puts it in their power to perpetrate the worst of mischiefs, should they be bad men; and, sir, would not all the world, from the eastern to the western hemisphere, blame our distracted folly in resting our rights upon the contingency of our rulers being good or bad? Show me that age and country where the rights and liberties of the people were placed on the sole chance of their rulers being good men, without a consequent loss of liberty! I say that the loss of that dearest privilege has ever followed, with absolute certainty, every such mad attempt.
==========================================

And so the chickens come home to roost..

Like Mr Henry, I too have little faith in the supposition that elected officials with limitless power will not abuse it, and also will remain, as he did "an infidel on that point".

For those who may be interested - the complete entirety of the whole absolutely damning* speech can be found here.
http://www.constitution.org/rc/rat_va_04.htm#henry-01

It was this that convinced me to vote against Perot - simply the fact that he would have needed near-dictatorial power to carry out his admittedly very good plan, and I would *NOT* give that to him or anyone else under any circumstances for very good historical reasons.

It's why in spite of his good qualities I consider Hugo Chavez an idiot, cause he's given no thought to the fact that if whoever comes into power after him chooses to abuse the powers his office has usurped, it will not only undo the progess he has made, it could destroy them utterly as a nation and a people.

It's also by any stripe unamerican, not how we do business, and de-facto kingmaking, we haven't had a king for over 200 years and be damned if I will have one now, even a petty one in charge of a single operation although an important one, not on my watch.

And such "emergency measures" wind up all too permanent, just look at how long it took us to kill off the telephone line tax, an "emergency" tax thrown up in 1898.

And I recall stating much the same thing about the Patriot Act, and being laughed off as a doomsayer for it, too.

And I say to you now - reject this, on your life, reject it, no matter how good a man is, he is not THAT good, and cannot be trusted with power infinate.

Nobody can... nobody.

And just for reference, what shithead proposed this unamerican monstrosity anyways, cause I damn sure wanna know who the would-be kingmakers are so I can properly vent my ire and dump some sand in their political gearboxes besides as a preventative measure.

The idea that an american member of congress would even PROPOSE such a thing is genuinely offensive to me in ways I really can't put into words...

-Frem

*Patrick Henry's speech is damning indeed, 200+ years down the line and almost every single one of his predictions of how things would go down has been realized, often far beyond even his own worst case assessments.

He's prolly spinnin in his grave hard enough to power the eastern seaboard if you hooked a generator up to both ends, by now.

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Monday, September 22, 2008 12:36 AM

SWISH

KR - you're offering a false choice. We might indeed be facing a complete economic crisis, but does that mean we must take such a drastic and foolish step? Why not just include oversight?

This is pretty much exactly like what happened after 9/11 - in a time of crisis, extreme legislation was forced through by a mob, and soon we had no habeus corpus. A pillar of what makes western society great, gone.

And now I see the same thing brewing - the White House will say: but you must pass exactly this, NOW, or you risk ruin for all Americans! Which is the same choice you're speaking of, KR, and it's BS. It would be so easy and should be absolutely mandatory that any official of the government have some accountability and that the process be transparent. Especially in a job this big and important!

My god, after the past 8 years, how you possibly not be demanding accountability?

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Monday, September 22, 2008 3:32 AM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by swish:
This is pretty much exactly like what happened after 9/11 - in a time of crisis, extreme legislation was forced through by a mob, and soon we had no habeus corpus. A pillar of what makes western society great, gone.

And now I see the same thing brewing - the White House will say: but you must pass exactly this, NOW, or you risk ruin for all Americans! Which is the same choice you're speaking of, KR, and it's BS.

That's the way we're governed now. The media have become little more than a propaganda ministry, in charge of keeping us frightened and desperate. So scared, in fact, that we'll let the motherfuckers who created this mess push it off on us.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Monday, September 22, 2008 3:51 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Sarge, it's come to my mind of late that we damn well oughta start applying the school of thought we defend our weapons with... to our wallets as well, long past time for it, you ask me.

MOLON LABE!
(Come and Take them/it from me!)

We stop meekly handing it over, we could grind them to a halt in pretty short order, although I've almost no faith in the will of the people to do that, just yet.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, September 22, 2008 4:01 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Fred, et all.

So what the fuck do we do about it?

At this point, Im ready to fight back.

B/c right now they are going to have the taxpayers paying for it.

So in essesnce, they will be garnishering my wages so that I can pay for them bailing out the idiots who bought a McMansion. And I'm helping them take over the Free market.

So what can I do?

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Monday, September 22, 2008 5:21 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Wulfie, that depends on how much personal risk you are willing to assume.

Ed Brown, for example, wanted to make a statement, and he did indeed make it, at great personal risk to himself - but the media tried their damndest to quash it, and he paid dearly for it in the end.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_and_Elaine_Brown

Protestors are quite regularly beaten, subjected to hostility, illegal surveillance, having crap planted by cop-agents, etc.

I'm not so much trying to dissuade you, as making you VERY aware of the realities of what you will have to face - the nail that sticks out, begs for the hammer, you understand.

In the end, you've only got like four choices.

Play it by the book, aboveboard and legal, take the card sharpers marked deck and play at his table by his rules...

Or join an organisation and pray it isn't actually run by folks who just wanna collect resisters in one place for easy surveillence and pacification...

Or go hog wild and end up like Ed Brown...

Or play rough, play dirty - go underground and dig in so damn deep that you don't even remember the last time you used your own name, commit yourself to a lifetime of smoke and mirrors and manipulating others like some demented puppeteer, burning up your own humanity to the point where you begin to actively despise the very people you're trying to help, who if they ever knew of your existance would probably hate you thanks to the vilification of anything outside the status quo by the mass-mainstream-media...

Or some useful combination of the above, like playing by the rules by manipulating them against the sharper every chance you get, for example.

I would say, for you, for most... is to start out small, get some boot all in the ass of your local politicians, straighten them out and make them tremble in your very presence, this is especially helpful if you can drum up any kind of community support at all - the offhand, halfass support of a hundred folk is better than the rabid support of ten, when it comes to politics, since most folk are so damned apathetic anymore to begin with, you'll not have any opposition initially, and they might even be somewhat "Friendly" to you playing the "So nice you're taking an interest" game...

And then when they realize you're not just shlepping for a pat on the head and a quick bribe, and you're NOT going to get bored and go away, it'll turn... nasty, their kids will key up your car, slash your tires, their buddies will try to convince your boss to fire you - if you're smart, you'll be ready, turn that against them and then use anything and everything you've quitely collected to bury the fuckers.

And then you keep the iron fist on the rest of em, if you're so inclined, run for it yourself, especially if you live in a town small enough that no one much cares who runs it anyway.

And you play it hard, and straight, and be prepared to devote much of your life to it, cause once you have solidified your position and prepared a successor (preferably several) who shares your ideals, you take it the next step up, again and again, as far as you're willing and capable of going.

Sadly, there's no quick fix, no easy way, and you will need other people - your primary task is to learn, and fully develop, the ability to gather, motivate and lead them, or at least pull the strings of someone who can.

That's about the limit of any advice I would share, and I apologize for that, but the nature of the times makes it self explanatory why I would not, and will be no more specific than I already have.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, September 22, 2008 9:57 AM

SWISH

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
So what the fuck do we do about it?

At this point, Im ready to fight back.

Hear hear!!!

But I feel so helpless...

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Monday, September 22, 2008 3:07 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Well, if that aint the truth, I don't know what is.

So be it.

People, this is our home. This is our land and our culture.

If it takes all I can give to save it, I'm game.

Let the misbehaving begin.

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Monday, September 22, 2008 7:26 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

Upheaval Continues As Markets Parse Federal Rescue

BY ALAN R. ELLIOTT

Posted 9/22/2008

http://www.investors.com/editorial/IBDArticles.asp?artsec=1&artnum=5&i
ssue=20080922

Quote:

Stocks closed sharply lower Monday as investors strained to asses the impact of a massive financial-rescue plan.

Crude oil nailed its largest one-day price spike since it began trading on the Nymex in 1984. Bond prices toppled to multidecade lows. The dollar slumped for a fourth session vs. other key currencies. Gold spired 5% higher to settle above $900 an ounce for the first time in seven weeks.

The Nasdaq composite plunged 3.6% on heavy losses by Apple (AAPL), Cisco (CSCO) and Google (GOOG). The NYSE composite and Dow both hacked off 3.3%, and the S&P 500 surrendered 3.8%.

Midcaps took the day's worst pummeling, sending the S&P 400 down 4.6%.

The NYSE financial index toppled 6.8% as the sector led losses.

But preliminary figures showed that NYSE and Nasdaq trading was sharply below Friday's elevated levels.

Declining issues led advancers by more than 4-to-1 on the NYSE and by nearly 3-to-1 on the Nasdaq. Only 11 of the 197 industry groups tracked by IBD gained on the session.

Despite the day's slaughterhouse feeling, most leading stocks avoided significant damage.

One exception was IBD 100 firm Buckle (BKE), which fell 5.22 to 56.33 on a downgrade. JPMorgan Securities cut the teen apparel retailer to neutral from overweight. The move erased last week's gains, putting shares just below their Sept. 12 close and 16% below the high notched on Friday.

Some leaders did manage to stake out gains.

DXP Enterprises (DXPE) leapt 2.54 to 66.81. A Houston-based maintenance equipment supplier, it is one of the few stocks running against the market to nail new highs in strong volume. DXP's leading clients are in the Gulf Coast energy industry, which is working to rebuild after Hurricanes Gustav and Ike.

Open Text (OTEX) stepped up 1.40 to 36.70. The business software developer rose steeply Thursday and Friday. Shares are working to haul themselves out of a four-month correction.

3:15 p.m. Update: Losses Deepen As Crude Spikes Higher

By VINCENT MAO

Stocks gave up more ground late Monday, after crude oil spiked higher.

At 2:45 p.m. EDT, the Nasdaq shed 2.6%, S&P 500 2.3%, Dow 2% and NYSE composite 1.9%.

October crude oil ended at $120.92 a barrel, up $16.37, or 16%, on the general belief that the government's rescue plan would boost the economy and increase demand. The contract, which expired today, was up 24% at session highs.

Oil's surge hurt airline issues.

UAL Corp. (UAUA) tumbled 2.09, or 16%, to 11.15. AMR Corp. (AMR) dropped 1.83, or 14%, to 11.10. Continental Airlines (CAL) shed 1.76, or 7%, to 16.64.

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Monday, September 22, 2008 7:37 PM

OUT2THEBLACK

Folk should know that there was a lone voice in the wilderness of the U.S. Congress , telling the truth about how it all went so wrong :

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Tuesday, September 23, 2008 2:45 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

I'll tell you what...

If the Dems finally show they have a backbone and are actually serious about stopping this travesty from happening, I'll vote for the asshole on the left. If not, I'm writing in my brother for president because he said the most profound thing I've heard in the last few months about how to fix America's economy. He don't even know what a genius he is.

It is pretty scary times when the Demons are acting more fiscally responsible than the Rethugs.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, September 23, 2008 3:27 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
If not, I'm writing in my brother for president because he said the most profound thing I've heard in the last few months about how to fix America's economy.

Which was?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, September 23, 2008 3:46 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

I'm sure you wouldn't like it (or maybe you would if you would like to see America go away from it's worldwide imperialism.... (cough) I mean, liberation.... But since you're my boy Cit, you got sanctuary over here if things ever got really hairy over there. Just hitch a ride with my bro next D-Con and I'll even let you sleep on my couch.

Really though. It's too good to ruin the surprise in case any future "renegade" administration has goes through with it. I know my brother is a (humble) genius, but I'm sure there are greater minds who have thought similar things before. I don't see how it couldn't work.

Here's hoping for 3rd party bliss in 2012....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, September 23, 2008 8:05 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:

I want you guys to think about this...If the government owns the free market, it owns you. Its not a joke, or even remotely funny. The U.S. government will now control much of Wall Street, and most of of the housing market.

National Socialism anyone? Thats EXACTLY what this is.

Two words come to mind:

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!

Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

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Friday, September 26, 2008 7:36 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

US dollar collapse

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Tuesday, March 8, 2022 7:08 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

Pants on fire! Biden claims he'll 'lower your costs and the deficit'

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/pants-on-fire-biden-claims-
hell-lower-your-costs-and-the-deficit

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Tuesday, March 8, 2022 7:47 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Biden* is an idiot.

--------------------------------------------------

Me: "Remember Covid?"

Useless Idiots: "What's Covid, durr? Russia, Ukraine, Putin, NATO *drool*. DURRRR!!!!"

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Thursday, August 29, 2024 5:43 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

Have they improved life with Emergency Economic Stabilization Act...the crazy Bush and Obama years...The Bailout Money To Wells Fargo

Wells Fargo employee died at her desk, remained undiscovered for 4 days

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Sunday, September 8, 2024 11:33 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

a US$1.9 trillion Covid Relief bill ...that's over, its Ukraine now

Presidential election 2024: Kamala Harris announces policy huge capital gains tax u-turn to distance herself from Biden

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13812017/Presidential-electio
n-2024-polls-Trump-Kamala.html

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