Sedition Act by Geezer

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Sedition Act

POSTED BY: GEEZER
UPDATED: Thursday, October 9, 2008 16:31
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Thursday, October 9, 2008 7:29 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Whoever, when the United States is at war, shall willfully make or convey false reports or false statements with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the military or naval forces of the United States, or to promote the success of its enemies, or shall willfully make or convey false reports or false statements, or say or do anything except by way of bona fide and not disloyal advice to an investor or investors, with intent to obstruct the sale by the United States of bonds or other securities of the United States or the making of loans by or to the United States, and whoever when the United States is at war, shall willfully cause or attempt to cause, or incite or attempt to incite, insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty, in the military or naval forces of the United States, or shall willfully obstruct or attempt to obstruct the recruiting or enlistment services of the United States, and whoever, when the United States is at war, shall willfully utter, print, write or publish any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language about the form of government of the United States or the Constitution of the United States, or the military or naval forces of the United States, or the flag of the United States, or the uniform of the Army or Navy of the United States into contempt, scorn, contumely, or disrepute, or shall willfully utter, print, write, or publish any language intended to incite, provoke, or encourage resistance to the United States, or to promote the cause of its enemies, or shall willfully display the flag of any foreign enemy, or shall willfully by utterance, writing, printing, publication, or language spoken, urge, incite, or advocate any curtailment of production in this country of any thing or things, product or products, necessary or essential to the prosecution of the war in which the United States may be engaged, with intent by such curtailment to cripple or hinder the United States in the prosecution of war, and whoever shall willfully advocate, teach, defend, or suggest the doing of any of the acts or things in this section enumerated, and whoever shall by word or act support or favor the cause of any country with which the United States is at war or by word or act oppose the cause of the United States therein, shall be punished by a fine of not more than $10,000 or the imprisonment for not more than twenty years, or both: Provided, That any employee or official of the United States Government who commits any disloyal act or utters any unpatriotic or disloyal language, or who, in an abusive and violent manner criticizes the Army or Navy or the flag of the United States shall be at once dismissed from the service..

[edit] Section 4
When the United States is at war, the Postmaster General may, upon evidence satisfactory to him that any person or concern is using the mails in violation of any of the provisions of this Act, instruct the postmaster at any post office at which mail is received addressed to such person or concern to return to the postmaster at the office at which they were originally mailed all letters or other matter so addressed, with the words "Mail to this address undeliverable under Espionage Act" plainly written or stamped upon the outside thereof, and all such letters or other matter so returned to such postmasters shall be by them returned to the senders thereof under such regulations as the Postmaster General may prescribe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition_Act_of_1918

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 7:46 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Whoever, when the United States is at war ..."
"When the United States is at war ..."

"Section 8: The Congress shall have power ... To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water."

Has Congress declared war ? I forget. Please refresh my memory.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 8:19 AM

FREMDFIRMA

And history, from the original acts thrown down by Adams, to Lincolns tyrannical usurpations, to this, the McCarran Act, HUAC, and the results of the Pike and Church Committes, has always, always completely vindicated those who defied such edicts.

And it WILL vindicate those who flip the bird to the so-called Patriot act too, some day this will be no more than a dark memory and an embarrassment we try to distort and hide by omission just like the rest.

And some day one of my ancestors is gonna be throwin it in peoples face, trying to make them aware of the dangers before the NEXT batch of morons thinks they can get away with this shit.

It's a cycle, and unless we break it, like a slowly decaying orbit, some day it'll be the end of us.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 8:25 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

It started with Korea, wen thru Vietnam, and now here we are...

We really need Ron paul in there, or at least a guy LIKE Ron Paul.

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 8:43 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Has Congress declared war ? I forget. Please refresh my memory.

This is the Sedition Act of 1918, passed at the urging of Woodrow Wilson during WWI. Over 175,000 people were arrested and jailed under the provisions of this act and the Espionage Act of 1917, also passed at Wilson's insistence.

http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/espionageact.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage_Act

The Sedition Act was also used to control media reports of the Influenza epidemic of 1918, as such reporting was considered bad for morale.

And you thought the Patriot Act was bad.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 9:01 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

WWI and the flu epidemic - yes, the country was at war.

Now ? Not so much.

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Curious why you posted such a pointless piece of trivia.

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 9:12 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Senator Harry Reid : The Iraq War is lost

Senator Dick Durbin : American soldiers are acting like Nazis

Senator Barack Obama : Our military air raids villages and kills innocent civilians

Senator John Kerry : Our soldiers are going into Iraqi homes and killing people

Congressman John Murtha : Our soldiers are guilty of rape and murder

Senator Ted Kennedy : Bush & Cheney dreampt up this whole war at the Crawford Ranch

Former VP Al Gore : Our leaders have betrayed the American people

Congesswoman Nancy Pelosi : President Bush is an idiot

See a pattern here? I don't actually think any of the above are seditionists, and I do believe they likely said what they said in earnest due to anger and frustration. But when you've got American troops in the field you just don't say these things publicly.

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 9:15 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Jong -

Since the US Congress did not declare war, the US is not at war and the Sedition Act doesn't apply.

Bush and the administration OTOH should have been impeached long ago, and could be tried either in the US or the ICC for war crimes.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 9:19 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Don't be such a nit-pickin' fool Rue. No one is really a seditionist. But it is just wrong and dangerous to our troops.

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 9:25 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

DAMN! Should have quoted your assertion that the people you mentioned should be tried for treason.

I'll know better next time. Thanks for the lesson in changing your argument after the fact.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 9:27 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
the US is not at war and the Sedition Act doesn't apply.

It does not apply because the Supreme Court stripped away the crime of sedition fifty years ago.

H

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 9:29 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
But it is just wrong and dangerous to our troops.

Wrong? Maybe. But dangerous? Hardly. Nice to know it was repealed by Congress in 1920!

It led to all kinds of abuses, which should be a warning to everyone IT MATTERS to your freedom what kinds of laws are passed in Washington, including the so-called "Patriot Act".

or say or do anything except by way of bona fide and not disloyal advice to an investor or investors, with intent to obstruct the sale by the United States of bonds or other securities of the United States or the making of loans by or to the United States

Is it too late to get "Hank" Paulsen on this??? Eh, too bad!

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 9:32 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
But it is just wrong and dangerous to our troops.
Wrong? Maybe. But dangerous? Hardly.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

Signy..it IS dangerous to our troops. Statements like those above actually sometimes embolden our enemies, and re-energize their efforts against us. It is dangerous and can cost American lives.

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 9:36 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
DAMN! Should have quoted your assertion that the people you mentioned should be tried for treason.

I'll know better next time. Thanks for the lesson in changing your argument after the fact.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

Total bullshit. The word Treason never appeared in the original post, and you know it. I did delete the opening statement mentioning endless list of Dems guilty of sedition. You can't even be honest about something so fleeting. You are pathetic. Why do you respond to me? I don't get it. Now you can piss off.

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 9:42 AM

JONGSSTRAW

And I'll toss out one more concept for you folks to ponder....

When America was united in a cause like WWI and WWII we succeeded.

When America is divided as in Viet Nam & Iraq, we have great difficulty

Make of that what you will.

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 9:50 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Signy..it IS dangerous to our troops. Statements like those above actually sometimes embolden our enemies, and re-energize their efforts against us. It is dangerous and can cost American lives.

sometimes.... canThat's a wobbly supposition on which to deny the Constitution. The reason why a civilian, an elected official, is the Commander in Chief is to place him (or her) at the behest of civilian interests. Remember, although our Armed Forces sacrifice much - they do so at our behest, to protect us, our country, and our Constitution, not the other way around!

It's an awesome responsibility, to ask someone to die for you. So instead of sometimes first mindlessly shoving our sons and daughters into battle and then throwing them a guilt-ridden bone afterwards (the bone with our Constitution on it) we should be MUCH more mindful of what we're asking them to do in the first place. And if we are not wholly convinced of the rightness of our cause, then stop the slaughter and get them the hell out.

Quote:

When America is divided as in Viet Nam & Iraq, we have great difficulty

What was the point of EITHER war?

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 10:18 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Signy..it IS dangerous to our troops. Statements like those above actually sometimes embolden our enemies, and re-energize their efforts against us. It is dangerous and can cost American lives.
sometimes.... canThat's a wobbly supposition on which to deny the Constitution. The reason why a civilian, an elected official, is the Commander in Chief is to place him (or her) at the behest of civilian interests. Remember, although our Armed Forces sacrifice much - they do so at our behest, to protect us, our country, and our Constitution, not the other way around!

It's an awesome responsibility, to ask someone to die for you. So instead of sometimes first mindlessly shoving our sons and daughters into battle and then throwing them a guilt-ridden bone afterwards (the bone with our Constitution on it) we should be MUCH more mindful of what we're asking them to do in the first place. And if we are not wholly convinced of the rightness of our cause, then stop the slaughter and get them the hell out.
Quote:

When America is divided as in Viet Nam & Iraq, we have great difficulty
What was the point of EITHER war?

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

"I don't know"...Jeff Spicoli

I used the words "sometimes" & "can" because I cannot 100% quantify the reality of the concept, but I do know our military leaders say it all the time.

I agree with your sentiments about going to war. I agree both situations seem trivial and fruitless looking back in hindsight.

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 10:32 AM

OUT2THEBLACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

...And some day one of my ancestors is gonna be throwin it in peoples face, trying to make them aware of the dangers before the NEXT batch of morons thinks they can get away with this shit.

It's a cycle, and unless we break it, like a slowly decaying orbit, some day it'll be the end of us.

-Frem

Not supposin' ALL of your 'ancestors' to have passed on , but the remaining ones must be quite spry , if you really suppose they'll be throwin' something in someone's face SOME DAY...

From context , I take your meaning might be more accurately served by 'successors' , descendants , or somesuch...

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 1:43 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Ha!, correct, I meant successors, although descendants would do too, since apparently some level of Anarchist thought and behavior runs real strong in the family line, as I about have my hands full trying to teach discretion and restraint to my freakin horde of nieces and nephews, argh.

And as for WWI and WWII "unity" - I guess the name of Eugene Debs means nothing to you, eh ?

Or how about Victor L Berger, honestly elected and the fuckin congress pissed on the constitution and will of the people in refusing to seat him ?

Or how about the hundred and one, those members of the IWW railroaded under that act as a transparent excuse to break them since they represented a threat to all the folk makin a buck off the conflict.

Or the thought that the american people were so dead set against getting dragged into ANOTHER war in europe, it took deliberate provocation and chicanery to force a so-called "sneak attack" and then play on the rage spawned thereof to rook them into it ?

Shit, that sounds awfully familiar for some reason, gee, I wonder what it is....

Goddamn, people - Geeze at least does his homework prior to discussing historical events, the LEAST you could do prior to debating them is some of your own.

Cause when ya shoot off your mouth with unloaded brains, ya just look like an idiot, and are practically begging for some well deserved mockery about it.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 1:52 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
But it is just wrong and dangerous to our troops.
Wrong? Maybe. But dangerous? Hardly.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

Signy..it IS dangerous to our troops. Statements like those above actually sometimes embolden our enemies, and re-energize their efforts against us. It is dangerous and can cost American lives.

Oh what a load of crap. As if the fundamentalist nutters need that kind of crap to "embolden them". Simply the fact that you are breathing and allowed to say whatever you like and wear what you like and do what you like EMBOLDENS THEM.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

Trolls Against McCain

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 3:20 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Or the thought that the american people were so dead set against getting dragged into ANOTHER war in europe, it took deliberate provocation and chicanery to force a so-called "sneak attack" and then play on the rage spawned thereof to rook them into it ?

And let's not forget the 400,000 people rounded up and sent to camps for the crime of being Japanese-American - their homes and businesses confiscated and sold at knock-down prices to 'real' (read white) Americans. Folk who moan about the Patriot Act being the worst thing ever in America really don't read their history.

And Gitmo? Try Camp Douglas, where over 6000 Confederate prisoners died from illness, malnutrition, and cold.
http://www.censusdiggins.com/prison_camp_douglas.html

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 3:22 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

All the more reason to learn from history and not repeat the same mistakes, or even start down that road. Right?

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 3:33 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Simply the fact that you are breathing and allowed to say whatever you like and wear what you like and do what you like EMBOLDENS THEM.

Of course, on the flipside of that is the fact that if you STOP saying whatever you like and wearing what you like and doing what you like because of fear of emboldening them...

...you end up emboldening them even MORE!

I refuse to even give any thought to them; I'll go on living my life and enjoying it for all I can, and poking at those who are so easily offended, if for no other reason than just to piss them off! :)

Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

Trolls Against McCain!

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 3:33 PM

FREMDFIRMA

I think that's kinda what he meant, in addition to pointing out that we have historically stooped even lower (although I consider that no excuse) and have pulled it out of the death spiral even then.

We can DO this, we just need to get our shit together and cut loose the deadweight clinging to parties busy stabbing us all in the back, is what it is.

See also, sig-line, again.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 3:36 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Folk who moan about the Patriot Act being the worst thing ever in America really don't read their history.

I wouldn't call it the "worst thing ever in America", but I find it to be repugnant because it in essence opens a doorway for all the kinds of horrors you've referenced.

Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

Trolls Against McCain!

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Thursday, October 9, 2008 4:31 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

I wouldn't call it the "worst thing ever in America", but I find it to be repugnant because it in essence opens a doorway for all the kinds of horrors you've referenced.

But interestingly, no one has stepped thorugh that doorway very far in 7 years, whereas the Sedition Act was passed in 1918 and repealed in 1921 and still sent 175,000 to jail. Roosevelt sent 400,000 to the camps within a couple of years of Pearl Harbor. The Patriot Act, as repugnant as you consider it, is pretty weak compared to stuff implemented in the past by folks who are widely considered to be our greatest presidents.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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