Whoops - Joe the Plumber Hasn't Paid His Taxes! by Kwicko

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"When you say that you 'kow' (sic) Rue , is that something like when you'd 'pork' 'em ?
Hard to keep up with the fancy talk of all you young 'uns..."

AAhhh - in your very clumsy way you want to say 'know' as in 'had knowledge of', or 'and he knew her'.

Actually, it's a very old style meaning, not new at all. If you were more literate, you'd already 'know' that.

But thanks for your interest in 'knowing' about SignyM, and 'knowing' about me.

BTW - I take it as a real badge of honor that you (aka 'off track'), Kirkules, Jong (AKA Erica), Saint Rap, self-appointed martyr for the 'truth', hypocrisy practitioner and racist bigot, and whoZIT dislike me so much. It's a great accomplishment and one of which I am very proud.

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Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:07 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
There's a lot to be said for small-town folk...

Her meaning was VERY clear. The vitriol is because of her demonstrable lies and divisiveness. If she can't take it, maybe she shouldn't spread it around. Like manure.

BTW- I come from a small town. I now live in a big city. I am as "real" an American now as I was then. And "back then" I was anti-(Vietnam) war, along with most of my high-school class. Although they've moved on to big cities too, they're ALSO "real" Americans.

Palin.

ETA: I just caught this:

Quote:
still wonder , SignyM , do you just type faster than you think , or are you a crappy speller , too ? When you say that you 'kow' Rue , is that something like when you'd 'pork' 'em

So, speaking of intolerance, hate and vitriol, I think I'm fully justified in saying

you too, O2B.

I was prepared to discuss your viewpoint on its merits. You, apparently, are not.

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:38 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

More like cannot.

I've noticed whenever he gets short on facts he gets long on vitriol.

I'm so pleased that gold had gone down substantially. Yep, just goes to show that gold has intrinsic value all right, just like argon (or maybe silver), because they’re ELEMENTS ! on the periodic TABLE ! that have PROPERTIES ! that CAN'T be changed ! Which makes them VALUABLE ! because they have PROPERTIES !

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His argument is a perfect circle.

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Tuesday, October 21, 2008 4:52 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
The solution is ALWAYS to let people do as they will, and let the culture and society they come from guide them.

*snicker*
Ummm... point of fact - that IS the anarchistic world view, actually.

As for the kool-aid thing, most folk use it as a jim jones reference insinuating that the folk it's tossed at don't think for themselves, but that isn't what I mean when I reference the term.

When I say "drinkin the koolaid" I mean adherence to a particular line of political philosophy or thought, over and above ones own personal principles, which doesn't mean they can not think for themselves, only that they've chosen that adherence for a reason - and I always wonder what it is.

The reason I used it in this instance is because I honestly think you only half-believe, barely believe, or maybe want to believe but kinda don't, some of the facets of the poltical lines of thought you've expressed - like someone who was raised catholic instictively crossing themselves in spite of having turned agnostic.

I can see the conflict as the light of reality reveals this stuff to you not in black and white, but rather shades of grey.

But you know, being Conservative - that ain't a bad thing, or a wrong thing, and it most certainly does not require one to toe the line of a party or line of thinking that's abandoned those principles.

Nor is being Liberal, whether dimitted folk stupidly proud of their own ignorance choose to use it as a slur or not.

The glorious thing about being an Anarchist is... there is no party line.
Ask 100 Anarchists a question, and you'll get at least 125 answers.

So anyhows, when I say kool-aid, it prettymuch translates to a partyline, and is a gentle mock against folk who take up a pre-existing position rather than express and explore their own, something you seem to be doing, cause as noted, it appears to me you weren't too impressed with the flavor you were initially offered.

And that's fine too, better that folk make their own decisions, yes ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, October 21, 2008 5:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"... now that we have an innocent man being investigated for the criminal act ..."

Of driving without a valid license. Of working as a plumber without a valid license. Of not paying last year's income taxes.

But hey, if he's innocent then he really has nothing to fear, right ? You said the same thing about the US PATRIOT Act, Americans being spied-on and eavesdropped-on. So, what's YOUR problem ?

I’ve stated my problem quite clearly, which you’ve back up very well. You don’t have any problem with a man being attacked because he chose to question a politician. Not just any politician though. If he had questioned a Republican then you’d be praising his name as if he were the second coming of Christ, but because he questioned a Democrat, you’re not only okay with him being ridiculed and attacked by the media, you participate.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, October 21, 2008 6:33 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Wulfenstar wrote:

Thats why there won't ever be a cure for cancer. Even if we found one, it would never reach the gen pop. We need cancer, and A.I.D.S, and heart disease too.... as a way to keep our numbers down.

I know I sound like PN in this, but prove me wrong.

We disagree on a great many things, but like Frem said, you're trying. And on this, you're not exactly RIGHT, but I think you've got the seed of something in that statement.

The horrible truth of it is, there's far more money in TREATING things like cancer and AIDS than in outright curing them. Cure them, and big pharma only gets one bite at the apple; come up with a treatment, and you've got a lifelong supply of paying customers.

Pretty fucked up, huh?

Mike

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 12:53 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
You don’t have any problem with a man being attacked because he chose to question a politician.

I don't have a problem with a man being questioned because he lied about virtually everything relevant to his situation

Not a plumber
Makes only $40,000 a year,
Has NO PLANS to buy the plumbing business
Couldn't, even if he wanted to
And the business itself makes only $100,000 a year.
Is not an Independent, but a registered Republican.
And a relative of Charles Keating (Recall that McCain was one of the Keating Five.)

His mission was to "put a human face" on Obama's tax plan, one that peeps could identify with. (Identity politics)

But it turns out that "human face" was a hypothetical construct: IF he were a plumber, and IF he wanted to buy the business and IF he was in a position to do so and IF the business made more than $250,000 a year... And of course, his question isn't politically-motivated 'cause he's just an honest, everyday hard-working Joe, who is a fair-minded Independent unconnected with the Party machine

So if we're going to "put a human face" on Obama's tax plan, let's put a REAL human face on it.

Yanno, my SO and I, we got education, we've worked hard and saved all of our lives. We've done OK. We're net worth millions. EVEN THEN, we're not negatively impacted by Obama's tax plan. OTOH, we have a mentally disabled daughter and several pre-existing conditions in the family. I saw what my MIL had to go thru to get insurance after she divorced; hell, I was the one who called a dozen insurance companies begging for a health plan to cover HER pre-existing conditions. I practically had to have phone sex with an insurance agent to convince him to sell her a plan for a huge sum of money every month.

Does Obama's tax plan bother us? Not so much. OTOH, McCain's "health plan" scares the crap out of us.

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 3:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Does Obama's tax plan bother us? Not so much. OTOH, McCain's "health plan" scares the crap out of us.

So maybe you should point this out to the media so that you can be investigated, ridiculed and attacked, since you and rue seem to believe that this is the appropriate way to address citizens who question politicians.

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 4:04 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Finn, did "Joe the Plumber" misrepresent himself?

Yes or no?

Quote:
So maybe you should point this out to the media so that you can be investigated, ridiculed and attacked

First of all, I wouldn't want to subject our daughter to widespread attention. She's naive and doesn't know when people are lying, and unlike Palin I don't want to use our child as a political prop. Without that consideration I'd say: Bring it on. They can investigate all they want since all I'm doing is telling the truth. Unlike "Joe" the "plumber", an "Independent" who "wants" to purchase a business that "makes over $250,000 per year".

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 4:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn, did "Joe the Plumber" misrepresent himself?

Yes or no?

No. I haven’t seen anything to suggest to me that he was misrepresenting anything. This is a desperate attempt to discredit a man you don’t agree with. He was questioning a politician with a legitimate scenario. A scenario which effectively revealed a truth this politician probably would have preferred you not know. And that’s the real reason you have a problem with “Joe the Plumber.” And your argument is hypocritical. In two ways, first you aren’t willing to put yourself in the same spotlight as Joe, but you’ll certainly help ridicule him. And secondly, you’re hiding behind your daughter, even as you criticize others for that same thing.

I sympathize with your situation concerning your daughter, but we have two very different points of view here. I don’t think that the media has any reason to investigate and ridicule this man, nor would I think they should have any reason to do the same with you and your daughter. Examining the ISSUE is one thing, but what the media is doing, and what you are advocating, is ad hominem – attacking the person because you don’t like what they stand for. You can’t advocate one world for Joe the plumber and another for your daughter.

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 4:27 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Frem, et all.

I have never blindly followed any particular path, or party. (Except when I was 6 and still believed in Santa Claus)

But the truth, as I see it, is always in the middle of 2 (or more) political ideologies.

Yes, much of the world IS a shade of gray. Its rare when you can find something that is either right or wrong with no in-between.

My problem is that I see so many who believe that their hot button issue is black and white, when its really a shade oa gray.

And vice versa. They see things that are clear cut, but chooses to view them in shades.

So no, I can't ever come around to one political (or religious) viewpoint simply because of where it leads.

ANYTHING, taken to extreme and excess, will be wrong. Conservatism, Socialism, Anarchism, Liberalism, Fundementalism (of any religion), Environmentalism, and any/all other isms you can think of.

I mean, really. Name me one hot button issue where the answer is NOT in the middle.

The answer is, of course to navigate between all of the ideologies for what is best for the people. Not best for you belief structure or party. But, FOR THE PEOPLE. AS A WHOLE, AS A COUNTRY, AS A NATION.

Then, when the culture is able to take care of itself, when the people no longer rely on government as a means to give order to their lives, when in fact, the culture has grown to the point where it can ONCE AGIN be self-governed, then you get rid of most of the government.

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 5:14 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"If he had questioned a Republican then you’d be praising his name as if he were the second coming of Christ ..."

Now here you're making a lot of assumptions, something you do quite frequently.

I have issues with lies and liars - of any kind (and yes, even you).

Speaking of lies, this appears to be a good place to post this:

GOP Rep. Robin Hayes, Saturday:
Liberals hate real Americans that work and achieve and believe in God.

Rep. Hayes' spokeswoman, Monday:
Hayes spokeswoman, Amanda Little, says that Hayes absolutely denies making the comments that appear in the Observer article. She noted that other national reporters were at the event and didn’t pick up on what the Observer reported.
Hayes spokeswoman Little is still denying it and accuses The Crypt of “irresponsible journalism.”
Rep. Hayes, yesterday, after an audio recording of his comments surfaced:
I genuinely did not recall making the statement and, after reading it, there is no doubt that it came out completely the wrong way. I actually was trying to work to keep the crowd as respectful as possible, so this is definitely not what I intended.

Gov. Sarah Palin, last Wednesday:
We believe that the best of America is in these small towns that we get to visit, and in these wonderful little pockets of what I call the real America, being here with all of you hard working very patriotic, um, very, um, pro-America areas of this great nation.
Gov. Palin, last night on CNN:
I certainly don’t want that interpreted as one area being more patriotic or more American than another. If that’s the way it has come across, I apologize.

GOP Rep. Michelle Bachmann, last Wednesday:
MATTHEWS: So you believe that Barack Obama may have anti- American views.
REP. BACHMANN: Absolutely. I'm very concerned that he (Obama) may have anti-American views. That's what the American people are concerned about. . . .
GOP Rep. Michelle Bachmann, Sunday:
HOST: You do feel his [Obama’s] views are anti-American?
BACHMANN: I feel his views are concerning. I’m calling on the media to investigate them. I’m not saying that his views are anti-American. That was a misreading of what I said. And so I don’t believe that’s my position.

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Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 6:33 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
No. I haven’t seen anything to suggest to me that he was misrepresenting anything

FINN, speaking of willful ignorance, all you had to do was google Joe + plumber + transcript to get this (edited for brevity)

Quote:
Obama: What's your name?
Joe: My name's Joe Wurzelbacher.
Obama: Good to see you, Joe.
Joe: I'm getting ready to buy a company that makes about $250,000 … $270-$280,000 a year.
Obama: All right.
Joe: Your new tax plan's gonna tax me more, isn't it?
Obama: Well, here's what's gonna happen. If you're a small business which you would qualify as, first of all, you'd get a 50 percent tax credit, so you get a cut on taxes for your health care costs. So you would actually get a tax cut on that front. If your revenue is above $250,000...
Joe: Well, the reason why I ask you about the American Dream I mean, I work hard. I'm a plumber, I work 10-12 hours a day …
Obama: Absolutely.
Joe: … and I'm, you know, buying this company and I'm gonna continue to work that way. Now, if I buy another truck and adding something else to it and...
Obama: I'd have to look at your particular business but you might end up paying lower taxes under my plan and my approach than under John McCain's plan. I can't guarantee that 'cause I'd have to take a look at your business.
Joe: Okay, I understand that.
Obama: All right. Thanks for the question, though. I appreciate it. Okay, guys, I gotta get out here. I've gotta go prepare for this debate. But that was pretty good timing. Thanks.

www.tampabay.com/news/perspective/article858299.ece

It might help if you took the blinders off your eyes and unplugged your ears. Oh, and unstoppered your brain.

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 8:09 AM

ELVISCHRIST

Quote:

It might help if you took the blinders off your eyes and unplugged your ears. Oh, and unstoppered your brain.

Maybe Joe the Plumber could run a drain-snake through his ears? Couldn't hurt...

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 8:15 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Don't you need a license to do that sort of thing?

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 8:24 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Hey, in his case it's not like it's brain surgery or anything.

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Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 8:25 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Don't you need a license to do that sort of thing?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

LOLisall!

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 10:39 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
I mean, really. Name me one hot button issue where the answer is NOT in the middle.

Compliance with the US Constitution.

Admittedly though, clear cut answers like that are damn rare, true enough.

I generally don't take a lot of politics seriously, but this past administration, both state (that bein Engler) and federal, have committed the sin of doin crap that affects me directly and personally, and I don't take that real lightly.

I mean, ya had Engler screwing the cab industry, and on top of that my local gas station owner, a decent stand up guy who was trying like hell to comply with all the stupid red tape and become an american, gets black-bagged by INS and DepHomeSec right on freakin main street and sent god knows where over a minor technical vio he woulda fixed had anyone told him about it...

And now the station has weeds growin up through it, and the only other one nearby is a bunch of nasty crooks who've been repeatedly fined for watering down their gas, monkeying with their meters and all that crap - who were more than happy to see their competition gone, grrr.

And of course, the fact that taxes eat more than a third of my income, which is barely enough to survive on, and I get reamed both on income, and every damned penny I spend to bail out a bunch of shitheads on wall street ?

These fuckers made it personal, yanno ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 1:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
FINN, speaking of willful ignorance, all you had to do was google Joe + plumber + transcript to get this (edited for brevity) ....

Thanks for proving my point.

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 1:18 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Hey Finn, I'm sorry for all the snark. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 1:27 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Finn, I see we x-posted. But how does my post prove your point? You said you "didn't see" how Joe misrepresented himself, but all you had to do was find a transcript of the event. Joe didn't say "What if I was a plumber who wanted to buy a business making more than $250,00 a year?" So he lied.

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 1:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn, I see we x-posted. But how does my post prove your point? You said you "didn't see" how Joe misrepresented himself, but all you had to do was find a transcript of the event. Joe didn't say "What if I was a plumber who wanted to buy a business making more than $250,00 a year?" So he lied.

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Let's party like its 1929.

But in "RepublicanWorld", he DIDN'T lie if he didn't know that he doesn't make that much money. See, in their world (according to AuCraptor), if you go about spewing utter and complete bullshit, but believe it to be true (in the face of logic or even overwhelming evidence to the contrary), then you aren't spreading lies.

Mike

What, no catchy sig-line?

Trolls Against McCain!

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 5:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn, I see we x-posted. But how does my post prove your point? You said you "didn't see" how Joe misrepresented himself, but all you had to do was find a transcript of the event. Joe didn't say "What if I was a plumber who wanted to buy a business making more than $250,00 a year?" So he lied.

I have not seen any evidence that he lied, but the truth is that what he was doing was putting forth a scenario to test a politician. Your problem is that he successfully challenged the candidate for president you agree with, and in your mind that’s a sin. He dared to question a politician you agree with, so he must be destroyed. You want to discredit him. Just like the media. This is ad homenim being used against a voter who isn't towing the line you and the certain people in the media expect people to tow.

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 5:57 PM

Ummmm, Finn? Weren't you just trying to discredit Joe Biden because you don't agree with him as a VP choice? You've been blathering on about him somehow implying that Obama is weak because Biden said that someone, somewhere in the world will try to test a new president - as they've done since the nation was founded.

Let me guess: that's different, right? Isn't it always, when you do what you accuse others of doing?

Mike

What, no catchy sig-line?

Trolls Against McCain!

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 5:58 PM

Quote:

I have not seen any evidence that he lied...

Of course you haven't...

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 6:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Ummmm, Finn? Weren't you just trying to discredit Joe Biden because you don't agree with him as a VP choice?!

No. I was agreeing him. You should pay a little closer attention.

But here we have it again. Neither of you can seem to grasp the obvious notion that Obama and Biden should be challenged, they should be questioned. They are running for president – Joe the Plumber is not. Joe is among several million people who are voting Obama/Biden or McCain/Palin into office. As much as you and Signym wish your choice candidate were unquestionable and infallible – they are not. I should question Biden. And Joe the plumber should question Obama. And we as voters shouldn’t be attacked and ridiculed for questioning politicians.

And the ONLY reason I have to spell this out with third grade logic is because it is Obama and Biden that are being questioned. Neither you nor Signym have ever raised an eyebrow when McCain or Palin is questioned or even unfairly attacked. Such as you making asinine comments about McCain's time as POW.

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 6:38 PM

Quote:

And the ONLY reason I have to spell this out with third grade logic is because it is Obama and Biden that are being questioned. Neither you nor Signym have ever raised an eyebrow when McCain or Palin is questioned or even unfairly attacked. Such as you making asinine comments about McCain's time as POW.

OK, wait - so it's NOT okay to question McCain about his POW time? But it IS okay to question Obama about Ayers? It's okay to question Biden's remarks, but not Joe the Plumber's?

And does McCain think Palin is a weak choice? After all, he said "I wasn't a mayor for a short period of time; I wasn't a governor for a short period of time." Clearly that means that he thinks Palin is a weak choice for VP, wouldn't you agree?

And the ONLY reason you have to use third-grade logic is because that's all you're capable of.

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 6:52 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I have not seen any evidence that he lied

Even though everything Joe said was a deliberate falsehood?

Is that not a "lie" in your book?

Quote:
Your problem is that he successfully challenged the candidate for president you agree with

But I think "Joe" was unsuccessful. I agree with what Obama said, so getting him to say it again isn't a problem for me. Is it for you?

I agree with you: I think everyone should be questioned substantively. I think you should be questioning yourself too, as I should be questioning myself. But curiously, you can't stand questions. Maybe that's why you feel so defensive of Joe.
---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 7:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
OK, wait - so it's NOT okay to question McCain about his POW time? But it IS okay to question Obama about Ayers? It's okay to question Biden's remarks, but not Joe the Plumber's?

Let me know when you get on the same page as the rest of us.

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 7:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
I have not seen any evidence that he lied
Even though everything Joe said was a deliberate falsehood?

You only claim it’s a falsehood because this person was successful in exposing Obama’s controversial politics.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
But I think "Joe" was unsuccessful. I agree with what Obama said, so getting him to say it again isn't a problem for me. Is it for you?

It’s a problem for a lot of people – that’s the reason why we’re talking about this. If Obama's response hadn't have been a problem for a lot of people the media, nor you, would care what "Joe the Plumber" thought.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I agree with you: I think everyone should be questioned substantively. I think you should be questioning yourself too, as I should be questioning myself. But curiously, you can't stand questions. Maybe that's why you feel so defensive of Joe.

Says the person ridiculing a voter for questioning Obama.

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Wednesday, October 22, 2008 8:47 PM

The answer to Joe's question, assuming that he were the real person that he is not, who actually made 250,000 dollars a year and was in a position to buy the company he worked at,

is that he will pay a little more money in taxes so taht he can make a lot more money with his small business. How many jobs do you think Joe is going to get out of all that money being consolidated in the hands of 1 percent of our populace. How many shots at those office buildings is he going to have? Which big company already has those contracts?

The answer to joe is that money works its way back up the chain, and that if all goes to plan, more will work its way into his hands before it moves on up it again. That if middle class americans have a little more dough, maybe they'll pay to have the plumber come over rather than to wait for their brother-in-law to show up at some point in the week when he has time, to come and fix the problem.

The answer is that if he gives a little now, it should make everything work better, all industries...and it will make the people at the top invest in the economy and in America in a way that doesn't give them an opportunity to just pilfer at the top, but forces them to continue to make a product that gets bought...luckily for them the product will be more likely to get bought, because more people will have money that is stimulating the economy.

Tell me where I'm wrong here, and how models of our current system have been so succesful, anyone?

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Thursday, October 23, 2008 2:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
OK, wait - so it's NOT okay to question McCain about his POW time? But it IS okay to question Obama about Ayers? It's okay to question Biden's remarks, but not Joe the Plumber's?
Let me know when you get on the same page as the rest of us.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

Sorry, Cicero - I was reading ahead again. Do I need to slow down so you can catch up? Are your lips tired from all the reading?

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Thursday, October 23, 2008 3:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
Tell me where I'm wrong here, and how models of our current system have been so succesful, anyone?

Higher taxes result in a slower economy; cutting taxes results a growing economy – this is a fact that has been reproduced many times. So while in theory what you’re saying may seem sound, in practice it doesn’t work. And the reason it doesn’t work is because of the unfair way taxes are leveled to punish productivity and wealth. So what actually ends up happening is raising taxes results in fewer jobs, so there are fewer people making money to pay the plumber.

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Thursday, October 23, 2008 3:29 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Higher taxes result in a slower economy

Always? Didn't we pay a bit more tax under Clinton? I seem to remember that economy was okay...(?)

Quizzical Chrisisall

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Thursday, October 23, 2008 3:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Higher taxes result in a slower economy
Always? Didn't we pay a bit more tax under Clinton? I seem to remember that economy was okay...(?)

In an economic boom that started with Reagan cutting taxes. Clintons raising taxes did not improve the economy.

It’s really quite simple. Do you believe that a person is going to pay taxes on his company out of his pocket? The answer is probably not, if he can get around it, so who do you think ends up paying those taxes?

Let’s say that I have a company that brings in a million dollars annually. Out of that million/year I pay myself quarter of a million salary and the salary of 10 other people at $50000/year. You come along and raise my taxes by 10%. Do you really think I’m going to pay that 10% out of my pocket? Probably not. Instead I’ll balance the books so that I continue to make a $250,000/year, but I’ll fire an employee and raise prices by ~6%. So I’ve passed that tax off onto the consumer. Now there is one extra person without work and everyone must pay a higher cost for my product or service. And If I can’t afford to raise prices, I’ll just fire two people. This is the reason why demand side doesn’t work. You’ll never get the supply side to go along with it in a free world.

So raising taxes really just hurts the little guy. Now eventually, when prices rise enough and enough people are out of work because of higher taxes, the economy will slow enough that I'll probably have to take a personal hit, but by then everyone below me in the economic scale has been screwed many times over.

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Thursday, October 23, 2008 4:04 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You come along and raise my taxes by 10%. Do you really think I’m going to pay that 10% out of my pocket?

If you had any honour, you would, seeing as you have enough to live well on already...

*back to reality*

Yeah, makes sense, thanks.

Notaneconomicsmajorisall

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Thursday, October 23, 2008 5:08 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Even though everything Joe said was a deliberate falsehood?-Signy

You only claim it’s a falsehood because this person was successful in exposing Obama’s controversial politics.-Fimnn

I think what you mean to say is that I only care that it's a falsehood because his "story" resonated with voters. I claim he lied because... well, he DID! You OTOH can't admit to seeing a lie when it's plainly in front of you.

Quote:
But I think "Joe" was unsuccessful. I agree with what Obama said, so getting him to say it again isn't a problem for me. Is it for you?- Signy

It’s a problem for a lot of people – that’s the reason why we’re talking about this. If Obama's response hadn't have been a problem for a lot of people the media, nor you, would care what "Joe the Plumber" thought.-Finn

True.

Quote:
I agree with you: I think everyone should be questioned substantively. I think you should be questioning yourself too, as I should be questioning myself. But curiously, you can't stand questions. Maybe that's why you feel so defensive of Joe.- Signy

Says the person ridiculing a voter for questioning Obama.

No, I'm not ridiculing a person for questioning Obama, I'm ridiculing someone for lying.

The typical small business, the average plumber, does NOT make $250,000 a year. Not even close! To represent yourself as the "average Joe" being negatively impacted by Obama's tax plan is a lie.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, October 23, 2008 5:17 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Do you believe that a person is going to pay taxes on his company out of his pocket? The answer is probably not, if he can get around it, so who do you think ends up paying those taxes?

Let's take your logic to an extreme: If it really doesn't matter WHO pays the taxes (since it all comes back to the consumer anyway, right?)let's just tax businesses and the rich 50% on any income over a half-million dollars, let's get rid of the ability to write off expenses for corporations, let's get rid of depreciation, lets get rid of the many business tax credits, and lets get rid of any other tax! What goes around comes around, right? You can't have that argument both ways, Finn! You can't claim that cutting taxes for the wealthy makes us prosperous, while adding taxes to the wealthy doesn't change anything.

AFA the boom being started with Reagan's tax cuts: So CLEARLY, since the Bush tax cuts we're in an episode of unparalleled prosperity, right? Isn't that how it worked??

You REALLY should learn some (macro) economics!

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, October 23, 2008 6:20 AM

I don't think so Finn,

besides, remember that you're talking about higher taxes across the board, and the plan we're talking about is less taxes for middle class working families. I would argue that there are less taxes where they matter, and the very base ofthis country, the significant population will have more money, SOOOO

they will not be spending less, and it won't be hurting or punishing small businesses, because there will be a lot more people requesting their services.

Remember that for something like 90 percent of working families, this plan is a tax cut. The way I see it, that's lowering taxes, at least where it matters, at least where it will actually stimulate the economy and make small businesses viable(do you really think they're viable now?)

So I'll take your point as truth, even though I'm not so certain it is, and then say...SEE, the perfect plan....we're lowering taxes.

Again, just to reiterate, this will help busineses selling a product or a service. How could it not?

...........

and on edit, lets just continue with this logic a little longer...all of a sudden there are more people in the world with a little vernture capital, with a little money to try to push out and try something new, to start their own businesses. And now we get something that is sorely missed in our country...competition.

You can argue that taxes will raise prices but I say competition will keep them low, wherass competition for good labor will make wages higher. A win on up to, but exlucing the richest .1 percent of Americans.

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Thursday, October 23, 2008 12:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You can't claim that cutting taxes for the wealthy helps, while adding taxes to the wealthy doesn't do anything.

Actually that’s not what I’m claiming at all. I said cutting taxes or avoiding tax increases will grows the economy but increasing taxes will causes the economy to shrink.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
AFA the boom being started with Reagan's tax cuts: So CLEARLY, since Bush cut taxes we're in an episode of unparalleled prosperity, right? Isn't that how it worked??

Up until the problems with credit, yes. The Bush tax cuts grew the economy and continued the economic boom started by the Reagan tax cuts. In fact, they grew the economy very fast and very strong.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You REALLY should learn some economics!

Trans: You REALLY should just accept Signym righteousness since she has no real response otherwise.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I think what you mean to say is that I only care that it's a falsehood because his "story" resonated with voters. I claim he lied because... well, he DID! You OTOH can't admit to seeing a lie when it's plainly in front of you.

No, you claim he lied because you have no real response to his comments.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
No, I'm not ridiculing a person for questioning Obama, I'm ridiculing someone for lying.

For that to be true, you’d have to show that he lied. You just wanting it to be a lie is not sufficient.

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Thursday, October 23, 2008 12:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
You can argue that taxes will raise prices but I say competition will keep them low, wherass competition for good labor will make wages higher. A win on up to, but exlucing the richest .1 percent of Americans.

Competition does not keep prices low. It keeps them competitive. In order to keep prices low, you have to make it cheaper to supply the product, which reducing taxes helps.

And while not taxing the middle class is a good start, it’s not the only thing. Obama’s plan relies on redistribution of wealth, which might boost some consumption and create some demand for new employment, but it will not boost investment. And Obama’s plan will probably not produce half as many jobs as McCain’s plan for the simple fact that there is no incentive for business' to increase employment.

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Thursday, October 23, 2008 12:36 PM

Finn,

can you explain to me why you think my lamens economics is wrong?

You have some nebulous truth about raising taxes historically slowing down the economy(which for the hell of it i've conceded),

but why would raising taxes on the riches 5 percent of Americans while lowering them for the rest of us hurt the economy? How many ipods do that 5 percent need to buy? how many pairs of shoes, how many groceries...etc.

You argue that we need them to stimulate the economy, to venture into new opporunities...I counter argue that more people will have that opportunity if the wealth is more appropriately taxed. More entrepreneurship will be possible, not less, because more people across the board should be doing better.

We have no evidence really that giving these companies tax cuts just to outsource their workers somewhere else, or else to follow tried and true business models that are centralized and require less skilled workers, less saavy local management, and generally take money out of the communities they operate in, does anything good for our economy. The last 8 years and maybe even before, seems to suggest just the opposite.

......................

on edit,

I see you responded.

really? competition doesn't have an effect on prices? That seems counter intuitive to me, but I grant it's possible, if competition in turn creates competiton for the same resources required for a product...but then I'd assume there would be more providers of said product, competing for your business as well...etc.

Why doesn't it work on the supply and demand theory? if more people are supplying something, and they want to be supplying it to more of the population, aren't prices often a way in which they make their business more attractive?

either way, taht would have just been icing on the cake, because if prices stay the same for everything, at least there are still more people who can afford them.

Why wont it boost investment? Isn't it possible that it boost small investors who have some money to toy with?

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Thursday, October 23, 2008 12:47 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Finn

I highlighted the parts of the conversation where "Joe" lied:

My name's Joe Wurzelbacher.
I'm getting ready to buy a company that makes about $250,000 … $270-$280,000 a year.
I'm a plumber
I'm, you know, buying this company

But I'll even give you the first line - his FIRST name isn't Joe like he said, but it's in there.

How do you excuse the rest of his BS ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, October 23, 2008 12:56 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

R9

It's not money per se that drives an economy, it's money in circulation.

If you tax the wealthy it circulates back down to the rest of us to spend, thereby driving the economy. That's true even if by us spending it, it only goes back where it came from. It's the trip that counts.

If the rich get richer, and richer, and richer, the money gets stuck in a place where the only use for it is for the very rich to speculate.
That's simply not enough to drive an economy.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, October 23, 2008 1:01 PM

okay,

that was my thought too, so I'm not the only one that sees it that way. I'm just trying to figure out how exactly Finn sees it.

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Thursday, October 23, 2008 1:14 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Actually that’s not what I’m claiming at all. I said cutting taxes or avoiding tax increases will grows the economy but increasing taxes will causes the economy to shrink.

First of all, that's a false idea. But let's say that you're right. Assuming that total taxes stay the same, why not just redistribute taxes to the corporations and the ultra-wealthy? By your logic, the economy would stay the same.

Quote:
Up until the problems with credit, yes. The Bush tax cuts grew the economy and continued the economic boom started by the Reagan tax cuts. In fact, they grew the economy very fast and very strong.

That's not what historical economic data shows. The economy grew faster and stronger under Clinton.

Quote:
No, you claim he lied because you have no real response to his comments.

I claim that he lied because he said many things about himself that were not true. He claimed he was a plumber. He claimed he was going to buy a business. He claimed the business made more than $250,000 a year. I even underlined all of that in the transcript. And all of that is false. So he lied.

Quote:
Trans: You REALLY should just accept Signym righteousness since she has no real response otherwise.

Do you really want a tutorial from me on macro-economics right here? I'll be happy to provide one.

Quote:
For that to be true, you’d have to show that he lied. You just wanting it to be a lie is not sufficient.

He said it. It's in the transcript. It's patently false, and since it's a subject he knows well about (himself) it's not a "mistake". What more do you think is necessary?
---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, October 23, 2008 1:52 PM