A Question for Mr. Obama. by Wulfenstar

I would say you already did pay for it, and should want to change the system so more don't have the same rough experience you did.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 11:36 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

The idea is ridiculous.

You don't owe anything to anyone, anymore than I do/did.

Noone does.

It must stop now.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 11:40 AM

then take responsibility for nothing,

and don't worry about anybody else or how it might affect you in the future, or your children.

Okayyyyy..

does that really make sense to you?

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Friday, November 7, 2008 11:46 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Are you sure it wasn't because of the joke, "How many Pollocks does it take to screw in a light-bulb?""

They told me they only gave those positions to men. It wasn't at all subtle.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 11:47 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

I do take responsibility.

FOR MY OWN ACTIONS.

Not for the actions of others. long dead. Or even living.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 11:48 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Wulf - the champion of the 'angry white man'.

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Silence is consent.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 11:51 AM

You should take responsibility for your inaction as well, as we all should.

that can also be culpable.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 12:13 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I think we all agree that racism exists. (And yes, blacks can be racist too, in violent ways.) And we all want to end racism. The only thing we're arguing about is HOW?. And in fact the ONLY thing we're arguing about is "quotas".

IMHO white peeps in this nation don't "owe" blacks anything for slavery. Most peeps immigrated to this nation after slavery was abolished, or are descended from those. SOME peeps are descended from Union Civil War vets... does that mean that blacks "owe" THEM something? And even if we could find a descendant of a slave-owner, what does that have to do with THIS generation? Aside from recognition that slavery was wrong, there is no debt for the past, and trying to guilt-trip peeps isn't going to work.

What whites owe blacks is the desire to build a fair and better society for everyone.

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 12:58 PM

there's always alot of extra running in place to get to the point where we all agree that racism still exists, every time. It's tedious, but somebody is always willing to start up that debate.

How would you go about determining whether or not a company refuses to hire black people based on prejudice, or perceived prejudice of its patrons? There would be no litmus test without some sort of quota system. So long as the company says, "that's not the reason" it could be a 100 percent white, if it so chose. It would be near to a 100 percent unprovable as to the reason why. It would just be a mighty coincidence that certain businesses in certain neighborhoods had no minorities working at them.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 1:01 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
How would you go about determining whether or not a company refuses to hire black people based on prejudice, or perceived prejudice of its patrons? There would be no litmus test without some sort of quota system. So long as the company says, "that's not the reason" it could be a 100 percent white, if it so chose. It would be near to a 100 percent unprovable as to the reason why. It would just be a mighty coincidence that certain businesses in certain neighborhoods had no minorities working at them.

The same way government does... use objective criteria for hiring and apply them equally. Transparency.

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 1:08 PM

k, but how do you make sure a company is doing that. You aren't going to look at numbers that suggest otherwise, right? That would kind of be like a quota.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 1:09 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
there's always alot of extra running in place to get to the point where we all agree that racism still exists, every time. It's tedious, but somebody is always willing to start up that debate.

Agreed.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 1:30 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

First of all, if anyone thought they had been discriminated against, they should be able to request an investigation. All a company has to do is let the investigator go through the applications and ask for the selection criteria.

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 1:34 PM

Okay, and if the selection criteria says nothing about race even if race is an unspoken factor? No recourse right?

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Friday, November 7, 2008 1:36 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"The same way government does... use objective criteria for hiring and apply them equally. Transparency."

Then there is that old issue of who sets up the criteria and which criteria do they set up.

Let's take police. There was the old-boy old-school set of physical requirements which cut out a lot of women. Then someone found out that b/c women don't have as much macho-shit to prove they tended to be better at not escalating situations. But until the first trial run or two, that wasn't in evidence and the old criteria seemed perfectly reasonable.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 2:07 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Okay, and if the selection criteria says nothing about race even if race is an unspoken factor? No recourse right?

No, if the selction criteria says "years of experience as a fry-cook" and our intrepid job-seeker had more years as a fry-cook than the person who got the job...

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 4:32 PM

FREMDFIRMA

He's got a point on one thing, ya can't legislate peoples feelings.

One thing is for certain, the way to kill racism, is to simply choose NOT to be - I grew up in a fairly racist family, and it never took, maybe in part cause I have a dim view of humans and little attachment to em as a whole, I dunno, but I always thought the entire concept to be stupid and ridiculous.

No, we're not past it yet, again I raise the issue of social, mental and emotional evolution that hasn't happened and a society designed to prevent it, something that needs to occur in order to put a stake in the heart of this issue, and finally prevent the powers that be from using it to divide us and play us off against each other.

One substantial blessing in this regard has been the internet, when you're discussing items with someone in mere text, unless they tell you, in fact you have no clue what their skin color or ethnicity is, and that's gone quite a ways in putting paid to some of this stupidity - and offered some real hilarity in mocking folks who seek to carry it here, like one white power site unaware for six years that their network admin was a person of color who took the money and laughed up his sleeve the whole time.

I do think we should shift that kind of aid to a purely financial/economic assist, which would help make it so much less of a wedge between us, and would still perform it's primary function quite adequately.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, November 7, 2008 6:45 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"I do think we should shift that kind of aid to a purely financial/economic assist, which would help make it so much less of a wedge between us, and would still perform it's primary function quite adequately."

Exactly.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 6:51 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Let's take police. There was the old-boy old-school set of physical requirements which cut out a lot of women. Then someone found out that b/c women don't have as much macho-shit to prove they tended to be better at not escalating situations. But until the first trial run or two, that wasn't in evidence and the old criteria seemed perfectly reasonable."

And? It was reasonable. A female is NOT as strong as a male. Biology, Rue.

Which, btw, is why most departments do NOT partner 2 females together on patrol.

Also, a point you forget to mention... a female police officer is much more likely to shoot a suspect if she feels threatend...

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Friday, November 7, 2008 8:07 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:

One thing is for certain, the way to kill racism, is to simply choose NOT to be.

Yup. As I've said before, I *DO* have my prejudices. I wrestle with them. I hope I'm winning. The IMPORTANT thing, to my way of thinking, is to realize that MY prejudices are MY problem, not something to be pushed onto others, or bragged about, or even given voice to at all. And certainly not something to be taught and handed down to others.

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Saturday, November 8, 2008 6:40 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Which, btw, is why most departments do NOT partner 2 females together on patrol."

Hello,

Most departments do not partner 2 of anybody together on patrol. '2 man units' (forgive the sexism) as they were called, are pretty rare. Most patrol units are solo. The reason you see a lot of 2 man units in television and movies is so that the characters can have entertaining dialogue or exposition.

I often wished, as a dispatcher, that more units were 2 man units. But the fact is, most police calls are mop up, not prevention or intervention. Hence, one officer is quite enough. Only when currently active violence was a prospect did a second unit get called in. And that's a second unit, as in a second car with a separate solo officer.

So our female officers were usually not only NOT teamed up with a male, but they were not teamed up with anyone. They were on their own, driving their patrol car. Just like the men.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 2:35 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Fair enough.

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 4:24 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Wulf - the champion of the 'angry white man'."

Anyways. I am reminded of when Mal and the rest ran into the Reavers...

To quote:

"So....we'll see what they do.."

I guess we are all waiting to see what Mr. Obama does.

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 6:08 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Wulf, Frem... to get back to the nub of the question: "How do you eliminate racism?"

I think it's all great to say "Just don't be one", but the problem is... racism is handed down, like religion, from parent to child, along with the perpetual feeling of victimization. There has to be a counterbalance to that continuing influence. Wulf says that feelings and thoughts can't be controlled by government... and then proceeds to call out for a program of teaching self-responsibility! (Also, I have a feeling he wouldn't quibble with teaching patriotism either.)

One of the big changes has to come from the media. Blacks and hispanics are often portrayed in the most negative stereotypes possible: gang-banging, vicious, lowlife drug-dealers or entertainers and sports figures (at best). The portrayal of blacks as doctors, surgeons, lawyers, teachers, police, and yes- even Oprah- helps diminish that prejudice. But if there is any place where quotas should be met, it's on TV.

Also, I think white schools REALLY need to employ more blacks, if they are equally qualified. It's not enough to toss young kids together by busing and expect they'll grow up colorblind. As far as I can tell, it hasn't worked here: the kids in our "integrated" middle schools and high schools STILL riot over "race", even if individuals have formed friendships across color lines. What white children need to see is black women and black men in position of AUTHORITY. They MUST respond to the teacher, principal. nurse, etc. They CAN'T just quietly segregate themselves on the playground and in the lunchroom, as often happens, to avoid the new and unusual. I don't think quotas work: quotas imply a certain set number of hires no matter what the person's skill level. But if there are peeps of equal qualifications, schools should slant the hiring towards blacks.

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 8:20 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Though as a female I was told there was no place for me in medical school.

Wow, so both you and SignyM are women.

Why ever did I think you guys were men? I coulda sworn you guys referred to each other as "he." You definitely never corrected me when I did it.

Hmmm. Surprises everyday.

--------------------------
Dr. Horrible Karaoke

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 6:03 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Siggy, setting an example helps too - don't forget in all those asswipes that demonise, there's also folk who's actions speak every bit as loud if folk only look and listen.

Not sure Gov has a place in this, but if it does, I say tread very lightly.

-F

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Monday, November 10, 2008 9:53 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

As in all things, the government should stay out of it. Let folks figure it out for themselves...

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Monday, November 10, 2008 11:34 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

What about corporations? Should corporations stay out of it too?

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Monday, November 10, 2008 11:53 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Thats back to the question of quotas.

Btw, propaganda like you suggest is not right either. Brainwashing folks into accepting what you think is the truth does not help. For any side.

If you can't use straight facts and honesty to win your argument, you should just stop arguing.

I can start a whole 'nother thread on how much propoganda I see everywhere...but thats for another time.

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Tuesday, November 11, 2008 9:15 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The biggest- but not the only- issue with discriminaiton is economic. If businesses are allowed to "express" their prejudice (by example) then they're being allowed the kind of power that you would not allow the government.

Prejudice is a cancer in our society. Businesses LIKE prejudice - just as they LIKE illegal immigration- because it creates a permanent underclass that can be used to threaten everyone else. We have to root out this cancer, and it takes more than individual action to do it because there is a serious and persistent ECONOMIC motivation for it.

I agree with most everything you say on the toic, Wulf: help should be targeted to need, not race. Jobs should be given solely on the basis merit, not quotas. But there IS persistent discrimination, as demonstrated by "blinded" studies, so, to get to the real nub of the problem: How do you propose to ENSURE that discrimination in rentals, leases, credit, jobs, education, arrests, etc doesn't occur?

Also, as I said, I would make an exception on strict meritocracy, one of them to place black teachers and administrators into white schools preferentially in case of equal qualifications.

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Tuesday, November 11, 2008 1:50 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

So, as I asked b4: What are your PLANS for ensuring that decisions are based on merit, and not race (or sex, religion, sexual orientation, age...?)

It's all well and good to say we should have equality... and I agree with you 120%... but how do we make sure that people ARE treated equally?

One idea is to require that ALL applications- school, job, credit card, mortgage, rental - be evaluated "blinded". That is, the application comes in two parts: the top form (with a tracking number, which the applicant keeps) which contains personal information (name, age, gender, city, etc.) and the bottom part which contains the same tracking number with relevant job/ credit/ rental information. Applications are submitted by mail and evaluated w/o personal information.

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Tuesday, November 11, 2008 9:06 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I gather from your lack of reply that you're for equality but not willing to think about how to ensure it for everyone?

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 6:32 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

No, Ive been busy.

My grandmother passed away last night.

As to ensuring it for everyone, ok.

So...how would YOU FORCE equality on everyone and everything?

Just curious...

Quotas? Just means that theyll hire whomever of the miniority to fill the role. Which means that the job won't be done by the best person.

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 6:32 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 6:32 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 7:20 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Oh.

I'm so very sorry for you and your family. You have my deepest sympathy.

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 8:02 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Something I had saved on ongoing discrimination:

Wash. Times falsely asserted "occupation, experience, seniority, education and hours worked" are "ignored by those citing the wage gap"
Summary: In an editorial about the pay gap between male and female workers, The Washington Times falsely asserted that "the relevant factors that affect pay -- occupation, experience, seniority, education and hours worked -- are ignored by those citing the wage gap." The editorial also asserted that "women tend to place a higher priority on flexibility and personal fulfillment" than on higher pay. In fact, a GAO study found that a pay gap (between men and women) persists even when controlling for work experience, seniority, education, industry, occupation, race, marital status, and job tenure.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 8:22 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Thank you, Sig.

She lived to be 90 years old.

Made it thru the Great Depression, WW2, the Moon Landing, ect. She was a Sufragette, and always believed in the power of people to pull themselves up and through.

She also reminded me of Aunt May.

I will really miss her.

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 8:54 AM

ELVISCHRIST

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
No, Ive been busy.

My grandmother passed away last night.

As to ensuring it for everyone, ok.

So...how would YOU FORCE equality on everyone and everything?

Just curious...

Quotas? Just means that theyll hire whomever of the miniority to fill the role. Which means that the job won't be done by the best person.

Wulf: Sorry for your loss, first of all. Feel better, and take solace in the fact that your grandma lived a long life and saw a lot of amazing things in her lifetime.

Next - Quotas means "they'lll hire whomever of the minority to fill the role", and not the best person?

Tell me, then, if you DON'T have quotas, what's to stop someone from hiring his neighbor or his friend, ALSO ensuring that you don't necessarily get the best guy for the job?

I don't know what "the answer" is, but I don't for a minute believe that we're in a place as a nation where we can all just believe in each other's good will and best wishes. I've seen too much, and still see it every day. The day after the election, another board that I frequent was filled with comments like "I can't believe those fucking liberal retards elected their fucking monkey" and "Everybody run - a n**ger is in charge now!". And this is NOT any kind of neo-nazi white supremacist website, but a freaking firearms website.

Are you actually going to try to convince me that these are the people for whom race is no longer an issue in this country?

EC

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:40 PM

KWICKO

Quote:

I don't know what "the answer" is, but I don't for a minute believe that we're in a place as a nation where we can all just believe in each other's good will and best wishes. I've seen too much, and still see it every day. The day after the election, another board that I frequent was filled with comments like "I can't believe those fucking liberal retards elected their fucking monkey" and "Everybody run - a n**ger is in charge now!". And this is NOT any kind of neo-nazi white supremacist website, but a freaking firearms website.

University of Texas head football coach Mack Brown just kicked a backup center off the team for posting on his Facebook page the following headline, on election night:

"Hunters, get your guns, there's a n**ger in the White House."

So.... yeah... It sure seems like we've gotten past the whole racism thing...

Mike

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 2:05 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"University of Texas head football coach Mack Brown just kicked a backup center off the team for posting on his Facebook page the following headline, on election night:

"Hunters, get your guns, there's a n**ger in the White House."

So.... yeah... It sure seems like we've gotten past the whole racism thing..."

So....free speech is no longer a right in this country?

I may find what he wrote as reprehensible, but he has the absolute right to say it and NOT face consequences for it.

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 2:53 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"University of Texas head football coach Mack Brown just kicked a backup center off the team for posting on his Facebook page the following headline, on election night:

"Hunters, get your guns, there's a n**ger in the White House."

So.... yeah... It sure seems like we've gotten past the whole racism thing..."

So....free speech is no longer a right in this country?

I may find what he wrote as reprehensible, but he has the absolute right to say it and NOT face consequences for it.

He certainly does, but the school that he plays for also has the right to expect a certain level of conduct and it is his problem if he does not comply with the expectation.

If my child said something like that I would smack him right in the mouth - no matter how big he was.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

Trolls Against McCain

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 2:57 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

At some point rhetoric passes out of free speech (a right) and becomes hate speech (illegal). That kind of speech could get you prosecuted.

And, as an employee, you actually have no right to free speech as a condition of employment. The fact that the coach merely fired the player instead of turning over the information to the DA was an act of mercy.

BTW - as an aside, the conservative Supreme Court has ruled that the constitution only protects you from the federal government, not other levels of government, private persons, employers or other entities. So free speech 'rights' vis-a-vis the state or county, or employer, your neighbor, Wal-Mart or anything other than the federal government - don't exist.

And the point still stands - discrimination is alive and well in the US.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:05 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

But more than that --- Wulf --- I get the feeling you will defend anyone's right to hate and discriminate no matter how heinous. Largely, I suspect it's b/c you don't want your own 'right to hate' infringed on.

How about this --- anyone can hate whatever group or person they want to hate, they just can't discriminate.

Would that satisfy your need to hate ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:06 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
So....free speech is no longer a right in this country?

The Supreme Court has long ago decided that certain kinds of speech are not protected... like maliciously yelling Fire! in a crowded theater. Another form of non-free speech is incitement to violence. The player is lucky that getting kicked off the tema is ALL that happened to him. Advocating killing a nigger OR a President can get you investigated by the FBI.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:23 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"The Supreme Court has long ago decided that certain kinds of speech are not protected... like maliciously yelling Fire! in a crowded theater. Another form of non-free speech is incitement to violence. The player is lucky that getting kicked off the tema is ALL that happened to him. Advocating killing a nigger OR a President can get you investigated by the FBI."

By that rationale...

- Anyone advocating riots (should their party/person not win) after the election is in trouble.

- The Black Panthers and the N.O.W. is likewise under "investigation".

- Simply stating that child molestors should not be given a trial (and should be summarily executed), could land YOU in jail.

My point is NOT that these words are not hateful, nor that they would not incite violence...but rather.. Where does it end?

I may hate what you say, but I will give my life in defense of your right to say it.

By the way, if these PC laws were in effect back in the 60's/70's MLK (and others) would NOT have been allowed to speak.

The pendulum swings both ways. You MUST have the power to speak your mind, no matter the subject. For, if not, then we are no longer free.

Also, it is NOT the job of government or any body to try and outlaw speech in any form. No matter how heinous.

Learning to control your words (and yourself) is the job of the culture.

So while I may hate Westboro Baptist, they have the right to speak. As stupid and as ignorant as they are.

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:25 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"But more than that --- Wulf --- I get the feeling you will defend anyone's right to hate and discriminate no matter how heinous. Largely, I suspect it's b/c you don't want your own 'right to hate' infringed on.

How about this --- anyone can hate whatever group or person they want to hate, they just can't discriminate.

Would that satisfy your need to hate ?"

As I still have breath in my body, and the right to free speech...

AHEM

SHUT UP, Rue

Oh,

And,

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:33 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I always have trouble with the free speech issue when someone starts to yell, "Kill all n*ggers" or some such nonsense.

My personal threshold is this: If a speech is likely to result in the immediate harm of human beings, I would regretfully make it illegal. So, a command to a frenzied mob to "Go kill some n*ggers" would have to be illegal. So would anything likely to result in a stampede or other dangerous public panic. "There's a bomb in this packed concert hall, so all y'all n*ggers better run!"

However, horribly offensive hate speech should be legal if the immediate threat of harm is not present: "On the whole, I think the nation would be better off if all the n*ggers got killed."

On the other hand, while I don't think most hate speech should be illegal, I think we should apply strong social pressure to deter it. If someone started posting here that "All n*ggers deserve to die" I'd have no problem with suggesting that we block his or her future posts. While everyone should have the right to be offensive, the offended also have the right to boot such individuals from any space they legally control. That includes a University that expects its football players to demonstrate the highest ideals of their fine institution.

Go ahead and start some hate speech in my house, and see how long it takes me to show you the door.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:52 PM