Genital Reconstruction Clinic by canttakesky

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
Do they have oil?

They have copper, coltan (used in electronic components in cell phones and computers), gold, and diamonds.

Here is more:
More Vicious than Rape
http://www.newsweek.com/id/44653/page/1

IRC Special Report on the Congo
http://www.theirc.org/special-report/congo-forgotten-crisis.html

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Dr. Horrible Karaoke

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Saturday, November 8, 2008 3:48 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
There's a war worth fighting- the war for the innocent...can't we scare up a couple billion for that?

Unfortunately, Sending money or medical aid without security to ensure it gets used properly means it just ends up in the pockets of the warlords directing the fighting. If we (the U.S.) send security, we're imperialists. The U.N. can't seem to develop enough of a consensus, and can't get anyone to provide enough (non-U.S.)troops, to do anything. African multi-national organizations don't want to set a precedent of interfering with each other's governments. China is happy to provide guns to any government who'll trade with them, regardless of their human rights record.

I'm not sure that there's much we (U.S. and the West) can do for Africa right now. maybe they have to pass through their version of the Dark Ages before their Renaissance can occur.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, November 8, 2008 4:47 PM

So play dirty.

Help the chinese sneak in the guns along with a few folks to "advise" the locals on how to use em.

One of the big problems, globally, is that women in general have been so totally disarmed - physically, mentally and emotionally disarmed by the governments, cultures and religions they live under the lash of, and while it's not a wholesale solution and some will flame me for it, if you put ONE of those in their hands, they may well be able to kick over the other two on their own.

For all that I respect RAWA and their ways, if I could put an AK-47 in the hands of every abused and oppressed woman on the planet who was willing to use it - I'd do it.

Think less of me for that if you will, but if they are provided with PHYSICAL security and the means of it, the rest might actually start to work.

Paper and ideas make for poor armor and a worse argument when the barbarians are clawing at you, and once you have a strong enough argument at hand on THAT level, then and only then do the others naturally flow from it.

And all the wishing in the world isn't gonna make that any less true.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 1:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
So play dirty.

Help the chinese sneak in the guns along with a few folks to "advise" the locals on how to use em.

One of the big problems, globally, is that women in general have been so totally disarmed - physically, mentally and emotionally disarmed by the governments, cultures and religions they live under the lash of, and while it's not a wholesale solution and some will flame me for it, if you put ONE of those in their hands, they may well be able to kick over the other two on their own.

For all that I respect RAWA and their ways, if I could put an AK-47 in the hands of every abused and oppressed woman on the planet who was willing to use it - I'd do it.

Think less of me for that if you will, but if they are provided with PHYSICAL security and the means of it, the rest might actually start to work.

Paper and ideas make for poor armor and a worse argument when the barbarians are clawing at you, and once you have a strong enough argument at hand on THAT level, then and only then do the others naturally flow from it.

And all the wishing in the world isn't gonna make that any less true.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

I'm not in general opposed to arming people, but isn't this a case of local militia attacking villages, abducting the women, killing men where they can or driving them to join militias, as well, and doing the same to an "enemy" village?

The entire mindset there is insane. You rape my woman, I rape yours. Yet these are the husbands and fathers and brothers of women they themselves were not able to protect, either. These aren't helpless women left alone somewhere without guns. It's a community being destroyed. Men and women. It's violence feeding off itself.

I am not really certain how putting more guns into this mess will end the circle of violence, mainly because the chances are likely that the guns will only end up in the militias hands should a village (men and women together) fail to drive off an attack. Guns that will be used to victimize more people, on either side.

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 3:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
There's a war worth fighting- the war for the innocent...can't we scare up a couple billion for that?

isall

Give me half a million dollars, and I'll be there personally.

Even if no one gives me money, I'm going there anyway. I'm serious. In about 18 months. So give me money--or at least wish me luck.

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Dr. Horrible Karaoke

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 3:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I am not really certain how putting more guns into this mess will end the circle of violence, mainly because the chances are likely that the guns will only end up in the militias hands should a village (men and women together) fail to drive off an attack. Guns that will be used to victimize more people, on either side.

You can't just give them guns. You have to train them, and more importantly, model a different mentality of the RIGHT to defend oneself. My husband, who has been to the Congo many times, says even if you put a gun in their hands, they will refuse to take it, because they have been so ingrained for generations with the fear of being armed. You see, folks there go after people like Mal and Zoe with a vengeance; anyone who stands up for himself or herself get targeted and punished severely.

So one has to model a different mentality, and have enough of an edge that one can keep one's weapons, for a while, until other people start getting the hang of it and join in. That is more important than the physical possession of a gun. You raise a community of self-defenders. It is possible, because there are such communities already. It is a matter of spreading the mentality.

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Dr. Horrible Karaoke

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 4:20 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Doesnt it say somewhere in the Constitution that we shouldn't engage in...oh say...

NATION BUILDING!???

If we would stop running off trying to be the worlds policemen, we COULD actually take care of shit at home.

But you know, where are the headlines in that? Wheres the "Lookee, see Im a humanitarian!" in that?

We havn't fixed anything in our own home...in fact we have consistantly made them worse...and yet someone wants to AGAIN try and go fix the problems of somewhere else.

OUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE! And yet certain folks are already saying we should go find the neighbors dog.

ARRGGGHHHHH!

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 5:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:

Give me half a million dollars, and I'll be there personally.

Even if no one gives me money, I'm going there anyway. I'm serious. In about 18 months. So give me money--or at least wish me luck.

You... are? Seriously? :) In what capacity? Are you serious about collecting donations? I'm poor as dirt, but I could spare a little, if it'd do any good.

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 5:23 AM

Double-post.

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 5:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:

So one has to model a different mentality, and have enough of an edge that one can keep one's weapons, for a while, until other people start getting the hang of it and join in. That is more important than the physical possession of a gun. You raise a community of self-defenders. It is possible, because there are such communities already. It is a matter of spreading the mentality.

So those existing, self-defending communities received some kind of training and are actually able to drive off those attacks? Now that is a good thing to hear. :) If this sort of thing can be done and works, if the training is really thorough enough to enable them to effectively defend themselves (and believe in their right to do so, yes) without escalating violence then that's actually an encouraging idea. Does this include trying to change the mindset toward women in general? Who does this type of training?

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 5:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
If we would stop running off trying to be the worlds policemen, we COULD actually take care of shit at home.

You're absolutely right. As a fellow libertarian, I am fully in support of our government not intervening in other countries' affairs.

But there is nothing in the Constitution that says I, as a private citizen, can't go where I please in the world to help wherever I want, doing whatever humanitarian thing I wish.

Quote:

We haven't fixed anything in our own home...in fact we have consistantly made them worse...and yet someone wants to AGAIN try and go fix the problems of somewhere else.

First, whatever our problems at home are, we don't have thousands of women suffering fistulas from inhuman rapes, waiting for genital reconstruction surgery. I think those women are crying for help, and the world has abandoned them. Why couldn't any private citizen choose to listen to their cries and try to do something to help?

Secondly, as much as I am against military intervention in foreign countries, if there IS ever a reason for such a thing, it would be epidemic brutal rape and rampant genocide. I would oppose that much less than say, sending troops to fish for "terrorists" in Asia.

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Dr. Horrible Karaoke

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 6:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
You... are? Seriously? :) In what capacity? Are you serious about collecting donations? I'm poor as dirt, but I could spare a little, if it'd do any good.

I am seriously going there, yes. I will be starting my own "charity," except I plan to fund my group myself so I can have total control over what my charity does and how it spends.

So, no, I wasn't serious about collecting money. Your offer, though, warms my heart. Thank you, really.

Once I am established there, I might collect for earmarked projects with clear and specific objectives. But not yet.

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Dr. Horrible Karaoke

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 6:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
So those existing, self-defending communities received some kind of training and are actually able to drive off those attacks? Now that is a good thing to hear. :) If this sort of thing can be done and works, if the training is really thorough enough to enable them to effectively defend themselves (and believe in their right to do so, yes) without escalating violence then that's actually an encouraging idea. Does this include trying to change the mindset toward women in general? Who does this type of training?

There are tribes that live in the African bush who are skilled with hunting weapons and defend themselves quite well against this kind of predation. The most famous of these tribes is the Masai, who live mostly in Tanzania/Kenya. There are tribes like that in the DR Congo as well. Yes, they can drive off attacks, but mostly, no one even bothers trying to attack.

You see, those rapists are predators who feast on the weak and injured. If there is a chance they might get injured or killed themselves in raping someone, that is too much work. They'll move on and look for someone (or a community) that is more vulnerable, with no risk involved.

No one is doing this sort of training right now. It is not a matter of building a self-defense school. You have to go down and become part of their communities. Then it is a matter of diplomacy and alliances to get existing self-defending tribes to expand their protection to the victims, which would include the victims adopting self-defensive mentalities and skills so they can carry their own weight. You can think of it as convincing the existing self-defensive communities to take in immigrants, except there is no land or border involved. It gets complicated, but that is the gist of what I would like to do.

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Dr. Horrible Karaoke

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 6:18 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
I am seriously going there, yes.

Wow, you really are a BDH.

Chrisisall

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 6:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Wow, you really are a BDH.

Haha. I'm not there yet. And even when I go, I offer no guarantee that I can actually help. It would be nice if I don't make things worse, but I can't guarantee that either. (That is why I wouldn't take money; I can't promise results.)

All I can do is try to bring resources to those women so they can empower themselves, with as much intelligence and compassion as I can muster.

--------------------------
Little defeat big, when little is smart.
First with the head, then with the heart.
--The Power of One (movie)

Dr. Horrible Karaoke

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 7:00 AM

CHRISISALL

Best of luck, CTS.

Chrisisall

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 7:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Best of luck, CTS.

Thank you.

Please just don't forget these women, and other victims of ongoing war crimes everywhere. Keep them in your prayers if you pray, or help spread the word so more people are aware.

When I am ready, I'll find a way for normal folk to help by buying products (preferable) or donating money.

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Dr. Horrible Karaoke

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 8:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
You... are? Seriously? :) In what capacity? Are you serious about collecting donations? I'm poor as dirt, but I could spare a little, if it'd do any good.
I am seriously going there, yes. I will be starting my own "charity," except I plan to fund my group myself so I can have total control over what my charity does and how it spends.

So, no, I wasn't serious about collecting money. Your offer, though, warms my heart. Thank you, really.

Once I am established there, I might collect for earmarked projects with clear and specific objectives. But not yet.

--------------------------
Dr. Horrible Karaoke

You? Are so totally cool. What a wonderful thing to do. Seriously, I'm almost speechless.

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 6:10 PM

Yep, that's the issue all right.

Like said above, you just hand it to em, they won't take it, wouldn't use it.

You have to instill within them the spirit of self required to do so, in a society and culture that's pounded it out of em for a thousand years and will respond very viciously to any attempt to correct that.

And so, in the end, you can send all the money, all the weapons, in the world and not solve the problem, what you need to send are PEOPLE, and people who are willing and able to risk their ass to get the job done.

It's not like the end of Buffy where you can just make em all Slayers, alas, it takes a human presence to guide them down that path and help them stumble their way along till they can stand up tall and walk it alone, or even start helping others, and even so it's GOING to be in the face of massive, violent opposition from a corrupted culture used to having it's way.

And THAT is where the ABILITY to defend comes in place once the WILL is there.

WILL - ABILITY - UNITY.

Only way to solve it, and only people can do that.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 9:46 PM

Frem-

I guess, I misinterpreted your original post to mean just women, as if they could somehow be separated from the men with whom they share these communities. I understand better now and, yes, I agree 100%.

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Monday, November 10, 2008 2:35 AM

Oh I fully support arming em all, but it's meaningless unless they have both the skill, and the will - to actually use the freakin things.

And then on that, build up coordination between them and the next village and the next and the next, and sooner or later the damned predator types are either gonna run outta victims, get worn down by attrition, turn on and destroy each other, or some combination of those factors.

While not the PRIMARY factor, disarming these folk was a factor in what I regard as the total collapse of their civilization into barbarism, you see ?

And no matter how perfectly you rebuild it, without the means and will to defend it, someones gonna kick your little sand castle over.

So, yeah, we gotta put arms in the hands of these folk, at least a few, enough so that they can fill out their supply from the bad guys who will, ummm, no longer be needin em no more, right ?

But to instill the will and ability, you can't do that with money, or just by bombing the bad guys if you can even find em - you have to get people in there who speak the language, understand the belief system, know the culture, and are wise and articulate enough to argue the point effectively.

And you gotta get em THERE, on site, on the ground, in the villages, even knowing some of them will die, because those that strike up the banner of resistance initially are going to get the living shit kicked out of them, for a fact, yet in the doing will weaken the beast for the next hammerblow, and the next, till it finally goes down...

But those next hammerblows must come, or it's all for naught and for that to happen requires a certain organisation, almost what you'd call terrorism if it was done against an established government, you see - one person with a gun is at piss poor odds against a mob used to getting their way packing more firepower, but a fully defended village with a coordinated defense plan, then you're talking odds worth taking to the table if you've little else to lose but a life the barbarians have made so fuckin miserable it's got little value anymore.

So, we play it discreet in order not to piss off the African nations, civilisation benefits everyone nearby, and they *will* look the other way a long as no one overplays their hand or tries to prop up a pet dictator as a puppet, cause they directly benefit if this crap is shut down instead of bleeding over into their own countries.

They just don't want another foreign proxy puppet like The Shah, or Saddam Hussien, or Noreiga, or Papa Doc - cause that always leads to a worse disaster and has a tendancy to spark imperialistic thoughts resulting in more war and carnage than a pack of thugs is ever gonna be capable of.

It's a fairly simple principle to the thing, and in all honesty we could have severely fucked up Saddams regime the same way were it not for folks pride and egos being more important than the job at hand.

Were it me, I would be making overtures to expatriates who fled that country, and seeing which of them have what it takes to go back in and try to redeem it even knowing they will likely die - as bad as things have gotten there, I would lay even odds you'll find enough to do the job, cause once you get them there, they'll find others, and when things have gone as bad as that, when the quality of life is so abysmal it has so little value, folks willing to risk it all to improve matters are not hard to come by.

In fact that pyschology ties in with what causes suicide bombing, if someone has nothing left to lose but a life that's just pure misery, they'll do ANYTHING they think might improve the situation at all, no matter what the odds.

All we gotta do, is find em, and then discreetely put the means in their hands.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, November 11, 2008 3:54 AM

Quote:
Frem:
And so, in the end, you can send all the money, all the weapons, in the world and not solve the problem, what you need to send are PEOPLE, and people who are willing and able to risk their ass to get the job done.

WILL - ABILITY - UNITY.

You summarized it perfectly. Thank you.

--------------------------
Dr. Horrible Karaoke

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Tuesday, November 11, 2008 4:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
You? Are so totally cool. What a wonderful thing to do. Seriously, I'm almost speechless.

That's so sweet of you to say.

But I'd like to make one thing clear.

There are two types of solutions to any major social problem: parasitic (rescue) or symbiotic (sustainable).

Our instinct when seeing suffering is to sweep in as BDH's and mount some sort of heroic RESCUE, whether through the military or charity donations or social services--or all of the above. It makes the recipients dependent on the rescuers, and turns them into parasites. I don't mean that in a bad way, but when one group of people will perish unless another group of people is always there to feed it, "parasitic" is the best way to describe that relationship. Iraq is a good example of a parasitic relationship. Welfare is another. I have said over and over again, that as a former social worker, I don't oppose welfare because of the money; it is because of the physical and psychological dependence it fosters. The rescuers develop what is widely known as co-dependency; they become addicted to the parasitic relationship. This is not good for either party.

We talk a lot about sustainable environmental and agricultural practices. Well that applies to social/political problems as well. The best relationship between helpers and helpees is symbiotic. Where both parties benefit from each other, the relationship can be sustained indefinitely.

I am not a hero. I don't plan to rescue anyone. I see people who are suffering unspeakable evil, who have no one on their side. I am going down there to be on their side. And I know that they will then be on my side. I have my own agenda, and they will help me achieve it. We will be partners, and they will give to me as much as I give to them. It is the only way a solution can sustain itself. Anything with unequal levels of power and contribution to the relationship is not sustainable. (This applies to healthy marriages as well, with few exceptions.)

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Dr. Horrible Karaoke

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Tuesday, November 11, 2008 1:40 PM

Try not to get yerself killed CTS, but if you do go out that way, take some with you, ehe ?

Oh, and watch out for the latest GSK poison, this so called malaria vaccine they're floating, cause they intend to use that region as their guinea pigs.

-F

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Tuesday, November 11, 2008 2:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Try not to get yerself killed CTS, but if you do go out that way, take some with you, ehe ?

Take "some" with me? Whatever could you mean? Hehe.

My husband was there in eastern DRC last year. He says he feels safer there than in New York City. So...depends on where you go. We're not going to start out right in the middle of a war zone, of course. We'll pick a nice safe spot to settle in until we are accepted as part of the community. And then see, we won't be ferners meddling; we'll be immigrants who want to help ourselves.

Quote:
Oh, and watch out for the latest GSK poison, this so called malaria vaccine they're floating, cause they intend to use that region as their guinea pigs.

Well, you know me and vaccines and doctors. We don't get along. That is one thing I am going to do in the 18 months of preparation: learn alternative medicine really really well. It's an invaluable skill.

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Dr. Horrible Karaoke

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Tuesday, November 11, 2008 9:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
You? Are so totally cool. What a wonderful thing to do. Seriously, I'm almost speechless.

I am not a hero. I don't plan to rescue anyone. I see people who are suffering unspeakable evil, who have no one on their side. I am going down there to be on their side. And I know that they will then be on my side. I have my own agenda, and they will help me achieve it. We will be partners, and they will give to me as much as I give to them. It is the only way a solution can sustain itself. Anything with unequal levels of power and contribution to the relationship is not sustainable. (This applies to healthy marriages as well, with few exceptions.)

Well, we all know what Zoe says about heroes.

And I am all the more impressed with the committment and prudence that informs your choice.

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 6:47 AM

Have you noticed none of the regulars are on this thread? I have noticed this too on other lists/boards. No one likes this topic. Do you think it is because it is painful and makes us feel powerless?

Anyway, kudos to everyone who took the time to read the article.

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Dr. Horrible Karaoke

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 7:09 AM