Ayers praised RFK's killer, Sirhan Sirhan. by AURaptor

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"The son of Justice Murtagh claims that the Weatherman were responsible for the attempted arson, based on a letter promising more bombings sent by Bernadine Dohrn to the Associated Press in late November, 1970, although that letter is generally assumed to refer to an October bombing of a Queens courthouse."

Wikipedia

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 2:56 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Cuomo actually addressed the fact that the Weather Underground dedicated its 1974 manifesto "The Prairie Fire" to Sirhan Sirhan, the assassin of Senator Robert F. Kennedy.

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 3:10 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

And THAT makes him a killer or a terrorist ?

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 3:21 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
And THAT makes him a killer or a terrorist ?

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That you even have to ask, sums it up.

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 3:59 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Rap

In your quest to 'get' me, you may have forgotten that Robert Kennedy was an Attorney General. He respected the need for evidence and facts, procedure, proof, presumed innocence and all that stupid liberal frou-frou you hold in such disdain.

It says a lot about you that you would hold those values that he dedicated his life to in such disregard while using his name to red-bait.

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:06 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

There are only two interpretations of someone who explodes bombs to influence political change:

1) Freedom Fighter

2) Terrorist

All such bombers see themselves as #1. All victims see the bombers as #2. Spectators are left to their own judgment.

My judgment is this - it was the wrong way to promote change. There seemed to be little regard for public safety, and there were avenues to influence the government without violence. Thus, I see the man as a Terrorist who simply escaped legal consequences for his actions.

Violence is a tool for when all other tools have failed, or have been taken from you.

It would seem Mr. Ayers' organization didn't have the patience to try for a better way, and I find his actions and statements in support of others' actions worthy of condemnation. I understand his people primarily blew up bathrooms. I also understand he wishes he'd done more. I have no respect for this respectable academic.

That having been said, it's foolish to link Obama to this man's policies. In public life you will encounter any number of unsavory individuals. That doesn't make you their 'pals.'

--Anthony

P.S. My spell checker wanted to change 'Obama' to 'Osama.' I found it humorous that the name of a terrorist is programmed into this thing, but not the name of a President Elect.

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:20 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

By all accounts, they didn't want to hurt anybody. Granted what they did was illegal and destroyed property (though cherry bombs in outhouses is about on par), but it was, to all intents, spectacular street theatre.

They wanted to convince the American public that the United States was truly responsible for the calamity in Vietnam.[2] The group began striking at night, bombing empty offices, with warnings always issued in advance to ensure a safe evacuation. According to David Gilbert, "[their] goal was to not hurt any people, and a lot of work went into that. But we wanted to pick targets that showed to the public who was responsible for what was really going on."[2] After the Greenwich Village explosion, no one was killed by WUO bombs.[24]

We were very careful from the moment of the townhouse on to be sure we weren't going to hurt anybody, and we never did hurt anybody. Whenever we put a bomb in a public space, we had figured out all kinds of ways to put checks and balances on the thing and also to get people away from it, and we were remarkably successful.

—Bill Ayers[2]

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:24 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

More street theatre of the times.

James F. Phillips (November 20, 1930 – October 3, 2001) was an environmental activist who was known in the Chicago area during the 1970s for his direct action activities under the pseudonym The Fox.

Born in Aurora, Illinois, Phillips was first motivated in the 1960s to plug a sewage outfall after seeing dead ducks in the Fox River. In the following years, his activism included leaving signs around town criticizing US Steel, plugging sewer outlets, placing caps on top of smoke stacks, leaving skunks on the doorsteps of the owners of polluting companies, and, in one case, transporting 50 pounds of sewage from Lake Michigan into the reception room of the company that discharged it. His direct-action techniques were later copied by Greenpeace and other environmental action organizations.

In his daily life, Phillips was a middle school science teacher and, later, a field inspector for the Kane County Environmental Department. Although he never admitted to his role as the Fox, family and friends confirmed this identity.

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As a water quality biologist by training, I had a professional interest in viewing a riverine system that had been greatly altered by humans. Canoeing the Illinois Waterway offered a chance to observe rivers that I read about in text books or heard about from my graduate school professors. However my intrigue with water quality problems in the Chicago area was lodged in my memory long before graduate school. It was actually in the spring of 1969, a mere junior in high school, that I began to hear and read about water quality problems in the Chicago area. I learned of a bold mysterious character in northeastern Illinois who began his own personal crusade fighting pollution problems directly by blocking outfall pipes, carrying hideous disgusting effluent, with cement and other materials. He would then put up prominent signs along roadways castigating the polluting industry and singed his announcement with his moniker, “The Fox.” I learned while planning this canoe trip that The Fox passed away in the fall of 2001 at the age of 70. I also discovered that his real name was Jim Phillips, and that he and six other “kindred souls” re-enacted the 3,000 mile Jolliet and Marquette expedition in 1973, its 300th anniversary. It saddened me that I was unable to thank The Fox for stimulating my interest in water pollution control while in High School.

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:31 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Rue,

It would appear that you see him and his organization of the time as freedom fighters.

There is always such a division of interpretation when people start blowing things up.

I respectfully disagree with you.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:40 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"By all accounts, they didn't want to hurt anybody. Granted what they did was illegal and destroyed property (though cherry bombs in outhouses is about on par), but it was, to all intents, spectacular street theatre."

Hello,

I am particularly interested in the potency of their bombs. You see, cherry bombs are all that is required to destroy a building sewer network and create an awful stinky flood. (Which is what their goals seemed to be.)

But they also built a bomb that prematurely detonated, killing several people.

A bomb with such potential would be several orders of magnitude greater than what is needed to destroy bathroom function and make their 'harmless' political statements. A bomb of such potential presents a suspiciously unnecessary risk of harm to bystanders.

And in fact, it did kill people.

I wonder what that bomb was intended for?

It bothers me.

It is my opinion, which can be confirmed only by God and the people themselves, that they were escalating their attacks. Most terrorist groups seem to start small and work their way up.

I am personally very glad they blew themselves up and possibly scared themselves away from their own escalation.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:47 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"I respectfully disagree with you."

Well, you grew up in the 80's. By then the tumult, idealism and desperation of the 60's had been smothered and buried.

It wasn't an ideal I shared with Ayers. But there was the endless mandatory meat grinder of the Vietnam (undeclared) 'War' (there was the draft at the time), police shooting peaceful protesters in the streets, and other sundry issues. So, to put it in context, they were desperate times.

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:52 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"I respectfully disagree with you."

Well, you grew up in the 80's. By then the tumult, idealism and desperation of the 60's had been smothered and buried.

It wasn't an ideal I shared with Ayers. But there was the endless mandatory meat grinder of the Vietnam (undeclared) 'War' (there was the draft at the time), police shooting peaceful protesters in the streets, and other sundry issues. So, to put it in context, they were desperate times.

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Hello,

I can't argue with you on the climate of the times. I'm limited to my own spectacles.

And anyhow, reasonable people can disagree.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:53 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

We seem to be cross-posting.

"And in fact, it did kill people.

I wonder what that bomb was intended for?

It bothers me."

It seems that there were no actual 'founders' of the Weathermen, and no leaders either. So there may have been a smaller group within the larger group doing their own thing. Best I can gather, the group split up with one portion becoming more radical and violent, and the other (with Ayers) eventually turning themselves in.

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:55 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rap

In your quest to 'get' me, you may have forgotten that Robert Kennedy was an Attorney General. He respected the need for evidence and facts, procedure, proof, presumed innocence and all that stupid liberal frou-frou you hold in such disdain.

It says a lot about you that you would hold those values that he dedicated his life to in such disregard while using his name to red-bait.

.

Paranoia will destroy ya - The Kinks

Rue, you think far too much of yourself. I'm not out to GET you, but merely point out to all you Obamaphiles out there that Ayers was/ is an unrepentant monster, so much so that his group DEDICATED their terrorist rag of a manifesto to the killer of Robert F Kennedy.

The more you try to deny this FACT, the more you spit on the grave of RFK, for holding up those who praised his killer.

How's that make you feel ?

To most, it should make them feel pretty damn disgusting.

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 5:01 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I don't think anyone is spitting on anyone else.

There are reasonable alternative viewpoints. I may not agree with them, but that doesn't make the people who have them foolish or cruel.

I also think Ayers has nothing to do with Obama or his policies. The fact that the men were both in civil service and shared project committees is hardly remarkable.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 5:07 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Rue
"And THAT makes him a killer or a terrorist ?"
Rap
"That you even have to ask, sums it up."

Seems like a personal attack based on pretty much nothing to me. I was looking for a statement of FACT from you (that thing you wouldn't recognize if it ran you over) and all you could manage was a personal attack.

Lets' see, what else.

For the probably sixth time, I'm not an Obama supporter. Though in your partisan blindness you probably can't see anything but 'them' and 'us'.

"for holding up those who praised his killer" You mean like getting out a gun and robbing them ? Or him ? Or whomever you're talking about ? Or do you mean I'm praising Ayers ? Or them. Or what ? Point out where I'm praising whatever you think I'm praising. Please.

"How's that make you feel ?" And when did you stop raping your underage girlfriend ?

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Really, Rap. Get help. You're not even coherent.

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 5:50 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
There are reasonable alternative viewpoints. I may not agree with them, but that doesn't make the people who have them foolish or cruel.

Past experiences with what some post are a valid indicator of just who / what sort of folk they are.

Quote:
I also think Ayers has nothing to do with Obama or his policies. The fact that the men were both in civil service and shared project committees is hardly remarkable.

Obama is a greatly unknown person, even to those who cover politics. He and Ayers are far closer, personally and politically, than most have heard, and I'm of the opinion that they in fact share a great many of the same or similar views.

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 6:18 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Obama is a greatly unknown person, even to those who cover politics. He and Ayers are far closer, personally and politically, than most have heard, and I'm of the opinion that they in fact share a great many of the same or similar views."

Hello,

I'm glad to see the word 'opinion' here, because it's not a word that gets used enough on these forums. Much of the argument and vitriol is linked to opinions, not facts with a single invariable interpretation.

For my own part, I have seen a tendency on these sorts of debates.

1) Demonize Ayers

I need no convincing here. I think his past actions were something deplorable. While he is a lightweight, as Frem points out, in the terrorist circle, that doesn't serve to make him likable.

2) Link Ayers to Obama

This is where I think these debates fall apart. I think it's entirely possible that people who work in the public interest have passing associations with a wide variety of unsavory characters. I have not seen any evidence that Ayers is Obama's "pal" and that they share vital viewpoints.

Notice I say vital. I'm sure they share many viewpoints by virtue of being left leaning. Just as Conservatives share many viewpoints with people who bomb Abortion clinics. 'Sharing viewpoints' is not the same thing as 'Sharing vital viewpoints.' I'm sure most Conservatives, however much against abortion, do not condone terrorist bombings against abortion clinics. That, to me, is the 'vital' viewpoint in this equation.

Likewise, I don't think the political similarities between Obama and Ayers equate to a propensity or advocacy of terrorist bombings on the part of Obama.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:37 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Indeed, I do not care for him either - had he done a better job of studying history, he'd have known leftists playing with bombs is always a damned bad idea.

Now, to his credit, he did try to avoid harming people, and he *did* eventually pull his head out of his ass, but it doesn't make the stink go away so easy, no.

Of course, on that last front, he's doin far better than poor Rappy, but there's always hope, I guess.

I do think it's good to have Ayers in play as someone who DID go that route, and learned the hard way that it's counterproductive and doesn't work, and can from a believeable real-life experience, impart that wisdom to others who may be considering it.

But it doesn't mean I like the guy, nope.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 2:19 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

".... he *did* eventually pull his head out of his ass course, on that last front, he's doin far better than poor Rappy, but there's always hope, I guess. "

As usual, you're deluded. Ayers never apologized for the bombs he set, and said he'd wish they'd done MORE.

In contrast, I've never been anywhere near misguided as the nutcase Ayers. Not even remotely.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 2:55 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
In contrast, I've never been anywhere near misguided as the nutcase Ayers. Not even remotely.

Yes, rather than bomb people, you much prefer to torture them.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 6:45 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Ain't seen him settin none lately, which means he's clearly learned his lesson, and I always took that statement to mean that in retrospect he wished they did "more" than just blow shit up, cause that was counterproductive and not very effective.

People DO learn from their mistakes, Rappy, even if you have utterly no personal experience with that particular phenomenae, it does exist you know.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 2:21 PM

America loves a winner!

If BilL Ayers does ever learn from his mistake, he can fess up to his errors, any time.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 2:32 PM