Just for Rap by rue

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
So Bush may indeed have been misinformed, but that's not the same as lying.

So I guess we should all moderate our statements to "Bush misinformed us into a war."

That work for you?

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

Not letting you or anyone off the hook so easily. Show were Bush LIED, or admit you can't , because he didn't. and bow to Zod.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, December 5, 2008 2:09 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

For my own part, I do not remember what I may have said or not said back then. I do know that my outlook has changed a great deal since 2004. If I was offensive, or by standing mute failed to speak against injustice, I apologize.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, December 5, 2008 2:31 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"I find nothing factually incorrect about Bush's statement. I think if we are all going to be honest, we'd have to conclude that the state-of-the-union statement is factually correct. And that means, by the strictest definition, that it is not a Lie."

It's weird - lots of laws are written with intent in mind (something I know SignyM disagrees with, and which also came up in the 'hate crime' discussion). Since you can't get inside someone's head, how do you determine intent ?

You use previous actions and statements: For example, if someone says 'I'm gonna' kill him', loads a gun, goes over to the man's house and shoots and kills him, you could conclude beyond a reasonable doubt* there was intent to murder. It would be hard to argue it was an accident, or self defense.

Somewhere on my computer I have the investigation report on the matter, b/c it was known immediately that the claim was bogus. And so, the search was on to find out HOW it got into the SOTU.

Long story short, it was discovered that that claim had been put into two previous speeches and been removed by the CIA, that the SOTU was submitted late for CIA vetting and given to underlings rather than the CIA director at the time (Tenet) as was the normal procedure, that two words were changed from previous submissions (Niger/ Africa and yellowcake/ uranium) to try and squeeze it into an acceptable form. Furthermore, the US didn't 'recently learn', it was a claim that had been debunked months before; and British intelligence already knew it was a forgery.

It is about as true as this statement is:
Every time Rap posts it's a the truth.
When used to represent this one:
You can tell Rap can't tell the truth because every time he posts it's a lie.

The missing and scambled pieces are deceptive. The investigation report, along with Tenet's later admission - that the words should never have been allowed in the SOTU - are not nearly as kind as the website Rap picked.

But even further, to get into Bush's head and what was his intent:
If Bush DIDN'T intend to mislead the US public, why did he have to word-smith the statement so much, submit it late and have it go through underlings? Why he did make half-claims and stitch them together with half-truths ?

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* Reasonable doubt is the legal standard, not possible doubt, potential doubt, shadow of a doubt, or other interpretation.

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Friday, December 5, 2008 2:38 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

AnthonyT

I don't think you were posting back then, or if you were, it was very, very rarely.

You do seem to have come out of your shell only recently.

YIPEEE !!!

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Silence is consent.

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Friday, December 5, 2008 2:39 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Rue, I agree with your interpretation. It is my belief that there was an intent to mislead, to essentially use a factual statement to create a false impression.

However, I think we have to admit that in the strictest, most explicit sense, it was not a lie.

I think we should tell Auraptor that he is correct, and that Bush didn't lie.

And then we can discuss why we think he was nonetheless dishonest.

It's important to concede points when appropriate, if we expect others to do the same for us.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, December 5, 2008 2:56 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"(What are your sources, btw?)"

Oh -- I missed this. My source is the investigative report on this. Unfortunately it's a pdf made from redacted and scanned harcopy, so there's no such thing as copy/paste from it. If you want a quote, or a series of quotes, you have to type the stupid things in by hand.

I may still have it on my computer (I'm pretty sure I do), if I do I'll try and find a link so you can see it yourself.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, December 5, 2008 3:01 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Thank you, Rue. It should make interesting reading.

I love Redacted documents. I always feel as though I am treading close to secret truths.

Of course in reality the redacted stuff is usually very dull.

It reminds me of 'Unnecessary Censorship' which I believe Jimmy Kimmel did on his show.

He takes an innocent scene, such as from Sesame Street, and bleeps certain words selectively. The human mind fills in the blanks with naughtyness.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, December 5, 2008 3:04 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Drat ! I don't have it.

I'm looking on the net, but in the meantime, there's this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3056626.stm, and this: http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/005047.php

Here's a link:
http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/US/Letters,%20reports%20and%20stat
ements/senate-intelligencereport-070904.pdf Looking at it, it's a much better one than I orginally had, where the pages were crooked in the scan etc. This seems to have been done electronically with document editing capability.

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Silence is consent.

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Friday, December 5, 2008 3:06 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I think there are lies by commission and lies by omission. Rappy is willing to accept a very fine parsing of Bush's statement in the same vein that he accepts a very fine parsing of economic data to say the economy is "on fire", a fine parsing of "torture", a fine parsing of facts to assign blame for the entire economic meltdown to Barney Frank (I didn't know Barney Frank was that powerful!!) etc etc etc. That is how Rappy continues to think that he deals in "facts". He simply cherry-picks them into irrelevance.

Bush was told by our intelligence to remove the reference to yellowcake because they felt it was bad information. Rather than deal with the whole truth, Bush simply changed the wording to shift responsibility onto the Brits (who BTW admitted to "sexing up" WMD intel). IMHO that qualifies as a lie.

------------

BTW, as a child I would often parse statements to my advantage. I felt that "Did you take a cookie from the cookie jar?" could be truthfuly answered "No" if I had taken two cookies. I lied, so did Bush, and so does Rappy (to himself, quite often). But he doesn't consider them to be so.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, December 5, 2008 3:15 PM

America loves a winner!

My god, just admit Bush didn't lie, and get on with your life.

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Friday, December 5, 2008 3:15 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I think it depends on what your definition of 'is' is. ;-)

I went ahead and looked up 'lie' in the dictionary, and this is what I found:

1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression

And I think we have the answer to our dilemma.

According to definition 1, Bush did not lie. He made a factual statement, and presented it as such. Hence, no lie.

However, according to definition 2, Bush may have lied. Many here, including myself, believe he meant to deceive or give the wrong impression.

The problem we encounter is that we can definitively prove 1, but 2 requires interpretation of the facts.

Can we at least concede that according to one definition of the word 'lie' he did not lie?

And then we can discuss our interpretation of definition 2 at some length?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, December 5, 2008 3:15 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Yeah, I used to do the same thing: I didn't take it - my hand did.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, December 5, 2008 3:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Rue, I agree with your interpretation. It is my belief that there was an intent to mislead, to essentially use a factual statement to create a false impression.

However, I think we have to admit that in the strictest, most explicit sense, it was not a lie.

I think we should tell Auraptor that he is correct, and that Bush didn't lie.

And then we can discuss why we think he was nonetheless dishonest.

It's important to concede points when appropriate, if we expect others to do the same for us.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

You know, I'll go with that.

So, okay, here it is, Rappy is right, Bush didn't "lie" by strict definition of the word.

He just dishonestly manipulated the country into a needless war. So he's not a liar (semantically speaking), he's just a deceitful, manipulative Motherfucker.

Now that that's out of the way, will Rappy now step up and answer those questions he's been ducking.

EDIT: Oh, wait. I'll go with that definition 2 thing - Bush is a GODDAMNED LIAR.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, December 5, 2008 3:55 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Let's not forget this tiny little tidbit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_Street_Memo

I say - on preponderance of evidence, He's a fuckin liar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof

You asked for proof, and then every time it's given you continue to escalate the standard of proof which you require.

That's bullshit, and coming from someone with a sub-zero credibility, doesn't exactly meet the criteria for quid pro quo.

And so, as you did not specify in your original statement, and the minimum standard is preponderance of evidence, which is in fact met.

Game, set, match.

And here's some advice - better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, December 5, 2008 4:26 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

In case it got missed b/c I put it in later:

Here's a link:
http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/US/Letters,%20reports%20and%20stat
ements/senate-intelligencereport-070904.pdf Looking at it, it's a much better one than I orginally had, where the pages were crooked in the scan etc. This seems to have been done electronically with document editing capability.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, December 5, 2008 4:30 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Thank you, Rue. :-)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, December 5, 2008 6:36 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I think it depends on what your definition of 'is' is. ;-)

Exactly. "I did not have sex with that woman" was... technically... the truth. Depending on how you define "sex". But that didn't prevent the right-wing from howling to the moon about how Clinton "lied under oath".

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Saturday, December 6, 2008 6:03 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
I think it depends on what your definition of 'is' is. ;-)
Exactly. "I did not have sex with that woman" was... technically... the truth. Depending on how you define "sex". But that didn't prevent the right-wing from howling to the moon about how Clinton "lied under oath".

Give it up for Signy for bringing this to a fine point.

If sex is defined as copulation, Clinton did not lie.
If Bush had concluded that whatever a foreign government told our intelligence services was true, Bush did not lie.

In BOTH instances, there was an intent to mislead, and like Frem said, that's f**kin' lying in my book.

But to make you feel better AU, without regard to objective truth, underlying motives, or common decency, yeah, these guys did not technically lie.

The sophist Chrisisall

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Monday, December 8, 2008 9:04 AM

Gone for the weekend, to come back and see that, as i think everyone prediced, Rappy tucked tail and vanished from yet another thread calling him on his bullshit.

Bet If I look, he's started a new one in the interim to spout the falsehoods...

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, December 8, 2008 9:23 AM

America loves a winner!

I never turn tail, and I never EVER spout falsehoods.

If I'm wrong, so be it, but I put fact over agenda or ideology, every time.

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Monday, December 8, 2008 10:01 AM

No, you really don't.

Your defenses and rationalizations are utterly laughable, as long as you continually refuse to answer direct questions.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, December 8, 2008 10:03 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
No, you really don't.

Your defenses and rationalizations are utterly laughable, as long as you continually refuse to answer direct questions.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

I do. Sadly, you and many here are too petty to admit that , simply because I share different opinions than you.

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Monday, December 8, 2008 10:06 AM

Oh, so you did answer?

Riiiight.

And your "post the facts you like, refuse to acknowledge those you don't" style may come off as honesty to your twisted little brain, but they're still lies of ommission. This going over your head doesn't mean it isn't so.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, December 8, 2008 10:32 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I put fact over agenda or ideology, every time.

Oh puhleez Rappy. You ignore facts left and right when it suits you.

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Monday, December 8, 2008 11:12 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

To which Rappy has no reply because he knows it's true. .

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Monday, December 8, 2008 11:13 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

I share different opinions than you.

You don't share opinions, you parrot them.

The squaking Chrisisall

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Monday, December 8, 2008 11:16 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
To which Rappy has no reply because he knows it's true. .

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Let's party like its 1929.

What are you even talking about now ?

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Monday, December 8, 2008 11:17 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

I share different opinions than you.

You don't share opinions, you parrot them.

The squaking Chrisisall

Again, not true.

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Monday, December 8, 2008 11:22 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Again, not true.

That was non, non non, non heinous!

The Bill-like Chrisisall

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Monday, December 8, 2008 4:51 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Blindness To Themselves

In fact, despite their own belief that they are quite honest with themselves, authoritarians tend to be highly defensive, and run away from unpleasant truths about themselves more than most people do. ... And when I give feedback lectures to classes about my studies and describe right-wing authoritarians, it turns out the high RWAs in the room almost always think I am talking about someone else.

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Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, December 9, 2008 9:55 AM