Quote:

---

Chrisisall:
Starting a whole post just to target & make fun of a single person is just WRONG!!!!

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
can I get at least a hell yeah to some of this?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Its always like this. 2 sides firmly entrenched in their belief structures, unable AND unwilling see the other side.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Often I'm struck with how one person will argue an issue and get it half right, then be rebutted with his/her opponent who has the other half right.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rue:

I'm really not in favor of the half of this + half of that approach = truth. Often the truth is all of something.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rue:
BSCM
I'm really not in favor of the half of this + half of that approach = truth. Often the truth is all of something.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:

--That "Blue" partisians would come to grips with the solid fact that economic freedom promotes prosperity.
--That "Red" partisians would freaking stop trying to impose a moral code on individuals and come to grips with another solid fact, that people know best how to govern themselves.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by cozen:
When in power, the point is to maintain, better yet, increase one's power over the commonpeeps.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
he makes a solid case that it must else these united states will slide into the cracks of history.

---

Quote:

---

THATWEIRDGIRL
Heck yeah?
It does bother me how quickly we turn to calling certain people out to the yard for a showdown. It upsets me when someone says, "How stupid do you have to be to believe the opposite of what I believe?" I don't want to get into that sort of thing. Not cool. I like it here because there are many intelligent people discussing interesting things. Yay for expression!

---

Quote:

---

RUE

If that's all there was I'd agree. People arguing about things for which there is no proof, and never will be - now that is just stupid. But some people (not Rap) are bringing facts to the discussion. Nothing stupid in that.

---

Quote:

---

CHRISISALL
I'll toss in a Heck Yeah! as well.
Look, JewelStaiteFan, RiverLove, Finn- these peeps give good solid arguments for their beliefs- they are integral parts of this board. AU is an excellent addition to the entertainment side, but at RWED he is little better than a troll, twisting facts like pretzels and then claiming unerring perception.... sorry, but that's MO.

---

Quote:

---

WULFENSTAR

Its always like this. 2 sides firmly entrenched in their belief structures, unable AND unwilling see the other side.
And NEVER open to the FACT that there are more than their 2 viewpoint/sides.
Its depressing to those of us who have far and away stranger/different/deeper experiences than those which will fit into their little boxes.

---

Quote:

---

RUE
Wulf

What I see here is that most people psychologicaly never get past their youth. It's sad. To live all those extra decades and be doomed to repeat the same ideas over and over till you get old and die.

---

Quote:

---

CHRISISALL
Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Its always like this. 2 sides firmly entrenched in their belief structures, unable AND unwilling see the other side.

When dealing with real vs. perceived absolutes, it can be no different.
When one perceives one's beliefs to be infallible, that's pretty much all she wrote.
When one denies or distorts the truth of facts, the ramparts go up.

Simplicity should be employed, but that would lead to concession, and most can't/won't have it.

The realistic Chrisisall

---

Quote:

---

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

This thread is much like Jerry Maguire's mission statement project. I'm glad someone had the moxy to set it out there.

As a Libertarian I often read the partisan bickering and just wag my head and sigh. Often I'm struck with how one person will argue an issue and get it half right, then be rebutted with his/her opponent who has the other half right. Then I mentally take the correct portion from the right...the correct portion from the left...and piece them together to present the answer nobody sees, and then be ignored by both as my solution does not fit an accepted ideoligical viewpoint.

---

Quote:

---

WULFENSTAR

Amen

---

Quote:

---

RUE
BSCM

I'm really not in favor of the half of this + half of that = truth approach. Often the truth is all of something.

I'm reminded of a post SignyM made two years or so ago. It had to do with testing your understanding (model) by making predictions. If your predictions are accurate, you can have more confidence that you are focusing on the important factors and drawing correct conclusions. If you cannot predict accurately, then you have errors you need to fix.

This economic mess ? Many of us supposed 'partisan' people were predicting it, not b/c of beliefs but based on the facts: that Bush was running the government into the ground; and that gap between the rich and everyone else (whose demand is the real driver of an economy) was widening.

Iraq ? Many of us supposed 'partisan' people were saying it was no threat, there were no WMDs, and it would be a difficult outcome. This was not based on any hatred, but on reading the reports, watching the gap between what Bush was saying and what he was doing, and crediting the experts with more expertise than the flaks.

Dismissing an opinion or position just b/c it's on 'one side' is a serious mistake. You need to be looking at who makes the better predictions. If you are not, then you're just drawing fact-free partisan conclusions of your own.

---

Quote:

---

CHRISISALL
"Chrisisall Chi: Master Of Adhomeynem- Fu."

Friday, December 12, 2008 - 17:44

Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Often I'm struck with how one person will argue an issue and get it half right, then be rebutted with his/her opponent who has the other half right.

Yeah, I do see that a bit.
I find that when I let peeps know I agree with some portion of what they say, more often than not they roll thru as if they've won the argument, not takin' in to account that I was trying to get to an understanding, not necessarily 'win'.

It's not easy in the middle, is it Blue?


The balancing Chrisisall

---

Quote:

---

CHRISISALL
"Chrisisall Chi: Master Of Adhomeynem- Fu."

Friday, December 12, 2008 - 17:48

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

I'm really not in favor of the half of this + half of that approach = truth. Often the truth is all of something.

Yes, that's true also IMO. Like torture- it's just wrong, and so-called good guys usin' it don't make it right. There are some absolutes, problem comes when absolutes are ALL one deals in.


The absolutely Chrisisall

---

Quote:

---

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Friday, December 12, 2008 - 18:17

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
BSCM
I'm really not in favor of the half of this + half of that approach = truth. Often the truth is all of something.

I'm not saying that it's a perfect model, but when I say "I often feel", that's exactly what I mean. I always look at the big picture, or rather the biggest picture I can when it comes to politics. I concern myself with:
The Constitution
Fundemental Rights of individuals
Fundemental Rights of States

What I abhore are arguements over political minutiae and how supposed "intellectual" posters would toss aside, or argue against large scale rights to statisify some particular perceved wrong. The thread "Sore Losers Dance" is a supreme example, where California's right to self-govern is trumped by a special intrest on a singular heated issue, prop 8. No thought is given to the impact on 49 other states. No thought is given to the "unintended consequences" of certain actions. Does anyone here even know about the growing movement in Texas to secede? Does anyone even care? Doubtful.

Rue, the general statement from all my libertarian friends is a wish that the Red-Blue partisians would come to understand and accept as truth the freedoms their opposition espouses.

--That "Blue" partisians would come to grips with the solid fact that economic freedom promotes prosperity.
--That "Red" partisians would freaking stop trying to impose a moral code on individuals and come to grips with another solid fact, that people know best how to govern themselves.

---

Quote:

---

CHRISISALL

Friday, December 12, 2008 - 18:23



Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:

--That "Blue" partisians would come to grips with the solid fact that economic freedom promotes prosperity.
--That "Red" partisians would freaking stop trying to impose a moral code on individuals and come to grips with another solid fact, that people know best how to govern themselves.

I can hover with those, in general.

However, in the former, some restrictions must apply, and in the latter, not always, due in part to lack of time and/or intelligent curiosity.

The qualifying Chrisisall

---

Quote:

---

COZEN
Y'all crack me up. Though entertaining during my slow moments.

When in power, the point is to maintain, better yet, increase one's power over the commonpeeps. Symbiotically linked with the need to maintain power is following and controlling the money. What's so hard to comprehend?

There are renters and there are owners. The dynamic between the two is where the tensions occur. Make your peace with where you fall in that scenario, or fight for wealth, or fight against those who control wealth.

I've made my peace, due, at a best guess, to geographical circumstance. Easier for me and mine to live a good life here in the northern reaches of North America. So, lucky me. Trite as it may sound, ya can't save everyone, so you might as well save yourself and those you love, as best you can.

Kinda explains my reasoning for not wasting my time arguing here.

***
Oh, wait, ironic conundrum.

---

Quote:

---

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by cozen:
When in power, the point is to maintain, better yet, increase one's power over the commonpeeps.



Ya know, I'm really really glad this was posted. It hurts because it's true. Cozen makes a point I long ago came to grips with, and have been fighting my way up through the american lifestyle as a result. But what this bleak outlook doesn't perceve, is another direction. "up" as opposed to left-right, forward-back when you live in flatland. There is in fact a book written that addresses this very issue called "A more perfect constitution" by Larry Sabato. You can purchase a copy on amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/More-Perfect-Constitution-Proposals-Revitalize/d
p/0802716210

I've read this book cover to cover and the main focus is how to go about fixing the problems in the document to truely Form A More Perfect Union.

What's most interesting is that he lays out about 40 solutions to perfecting our union in the book (and makes awsome cases for each one) then conducts a Zogby poll and the result is that over and over an overwhelming population of americans disagree with him. By whopping margins of 80/20 or 90/10. But once you read the book, you wonder why. And the answer is that the overwhelming majority of people are not qualified to think honestly about their governance. They are either 1. Apathetic 2. Pre-programed by idology or 3. Part of the established power-stucture and thus oppose change.

Our founders forsaw that the document they created would not last unless they built in 2 ways to change it. We know well the 1st, to write an amendment. But hardly anyone knows the second. Call a new Constitutional Convention. If a majority of states call for a convention, one must be held. This is where the fundemental text of the document can be changed.

It will never happen. Ever. And in the book he makes a solid case that it must else these united states will slide into the cracks of history.

---

Quote:

---

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
he makes a solid case that it must else these united states will slide into the cracks of history.

Aren't we slidin' now?

The questioning Chrisisall

---

Quote:

---

FREMDFIRMA

Well, for my part I have an agenda, and am not shy in admitting that nor pursuing it - yet not at someone else's expense cause putting an end to that crap is a big part of it.

Thing is, I welcome alternative viewpoints, the more windows you have on a subject, the clearer the picture, yes ?

It's when folk start smearing mud (Re: Lies) on those windows that'll start me on a rampage, or when someone starts using their own free will to impinge on or deny that of someone else.

I also tend to give as I get - whereas some will get a polite and reasoned argument, others will recieve a verbal conflagaration, or mockery.

No sense pretending party politics, I only got one side in an issue - MINE.

And above all else, I ain't afraid of admittin that.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by dreamtrove:


If AURaptor or anyone else posts something insightful, then we should carry the discussion forward. I think if I take an hour here I can find at least half a dozen insightful posts by AURaptor posted since my recent sign on.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by whozit:
Yes but we're all Browncoats! Even tho we're differet politicaly we all have 1 thing in common, WE ARE BROWNCOATS!!!

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Look, JewelStaiteFan, RiverLove, Finn- these peeps give good solid arguments for their beliefs- they are integral parts of this board.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Quote:

---

Chrisisall:
Starting a whole post just to target & make fun of a single person is just WRONG!!!!

---

I take it this is sarcasm, but I agree.

Several things seem wrong. I leave for a few decades and come back and everyone is still at each other's throats about partisan minutiae while the titanic sinks.

This, BTW, is why I left before, and I did it very loudly. Someone started a thread for the purpose of attacking Pirate News, and a lot of people like six year olds on a playground, piled on.

---

Quote:

---

CHRISISALL

Yeah...that troll comment of mine went a little far...Damn, was I in a crabby mood that day.

Colour me Scotty on K7...isall

---

Quote:

---

WHOZIT

Yes but we're all Browncoats! Even tho we're differet politicaly we all have 1 thing in common, WE ARE BROWNCOATS!!!

---

Quote:

---

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
Yes but we're all Browncoats! Even tho we're differet politicaly we all have 1 thing in common, WE ARE BROWNCOATS!!!

Some of us are Browncoats with bagel issues...

---

Quote:

---

RIVERLOVE

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Look, JewelStaiteFan, RiverLove, Finn- these peeps give good solid arguments for their beliefs- they are integral parts of this board.


That is a very nice thing to say. A real kindness.

---

Quote:

---

PIRATENEWS

Quote:

---

Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Quote:

---

Chrisisall:
Starting a whole post just to target & make fun of a single person is just WRONG!!!!

---

I take it this is sarcasm, but I agree.

Several things seem wrong. I leave for a few decades and come back and everyone is still at each other's throats about partisan minutiae while the titanic sinks.

This, BTW, is why I left before, and I did it very loudly. Someone started a thread for the purpose of attacking Pirate News, and a lot of people like six year olds on a playground, piled on.

---

Nuttin persnal. Jus bizniss. Better n shootin bullits. That comes later, with a few killins now and again.

This is an infowar revolution, with 1000s of paid Operatives stalking the internet to censor dissent. Many outsourced to India using canned responses. All part of the hostile takeover of the planet by the NWO banksters and their police-industrial complex.

The DARPAnet as we know won't survive much longer, since the Good Guys will probably lose. Use it or lose it. Tuff to compete with banksters who counterfeit trillions of dollars to bribe useful idiots to do their bidding. If that don't work, their blackmail and assassin teams terminate the opposition. Internet numbers are falling like the stock market, with fewer folks able to afford internet in the Depression.

---

Quote:

---

PN
This year I've been censored and banned by several forums and youtube, thanks to police and milspec psyoppers. Cops never get banned, when they started the flame job.

The biker forums are the worst, used by police for intelligence gathering on "biker gangs". According to cops, every biker is in a gang. ATF and FBI even confiscated the website and copyright logo for the Monguls biker gang this year, after arresting 60, for the crime of daring to get their own show on History Channel. But Wall Street banksters stealing $8.5-Trillion from govt pension funds is okay with all cops?

Seems cops HATE anyone who gives free tips on how to win in traffic court, or how to arrest cops, or how good cops can survive their criminal bosses. One cop who got me banned wears a Nazi helmet as his avatar, while killing the First Amendment. No concept of irony.

---

Quote:

---

PN
Freedom is not in their vocabulary. Their business is slavery, and business is good. Very very good.

---

Quote:

---

I don't know whether you're getting more coherent, or I'm getting to the point where I understand more, but all of this made perfect sense to me.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Myself, I know a thing or two, Good guys will lose, but there are more good guys. In the end, we win. If I name how and why, I tip my hand, but I see that takeover and raise it a revolution.

---