Most of us are Authoritarians by SignyM

No way; I'm no Jack Bauer!!!

The 48 Chrisisall

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Friday, December 19, 2008 7:27 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

It's long, but worth the read.

By Courtney Yager
CNN

(CNN) -- Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, Slobodan Milosevic. They are household names, infamous for masterminding genocide. But who were the foot soldiers who did the dirty work?

In many cases they were equally notorious in their communities because they were the friends, neighbors and co-workers of those they raped, slaughtered and buried alive.

Nusreta Sivac watched ordinary people become killers while imprisoned in a concentration camp in Bosnia.

She saw prisoners beaten beyond recognition and watched camp guards force a Muslim prisoner to rape a Muslim woman in front of everyone.

She was shocked to see people she knew running the camp. "They acted as if they had never seen me before," she said. "It was difficult for me to understand how people could turn into beasts overnight."

While some perpetrators participate unwillingly -- they are forced to kill or face death themselves -- many ordinary people are manipulated into participating in the killing machine voluntarily.

Researchers say most perpetrators of genocide were not destined for murder and had never killed before.

"You don't have to be mentally ill or even innately evil or criminal. You can be ordinary, no better or worse than you or me, and commit killing or genocide," said Harvard psychiatrist Robert Lifton, who has studied Nazi doctors.

"The truth is that we all have the possibility for genocidal behavior."

Experts have reached a troubling conclusion: It was actually very easy for the architects of genocide to find more than enough ordinary people to do the killing.

Genocide is often the result of a "perfect storm." A country reeling from political and economic turmoil, a fanatical leader promising to make things better and a vulnerable population targeted for blame -- all combine in a blueprint for mass murder.

Architects of genocide use the same tools to execute their plan.

Group identity

Millions have been killed for being religious, ethnic or simply educated. Group identity is one of the foundations of genocide. This allegiance makes it easier for extremist leaders to stoke age-old animosities between groups.

"We all divide the world into 'us' and 'them,' " said psychologist Ervin Staub, author of "The Roots of Evil: The Origins of Genocide and Other Group Violence."

"Some people are like 'us' because of nationality, religion, race, etc. Those that are not like 'us' are 'them.' "

"Group identity intensifies during difficult times," Staub said.

Jean-Bosco Bizimana, a Rwandan Hutu, slaughtered his Tutsi neighbors 14 years ago. Leaders of the genocide exploited the history of hatred between the Hutus and Tutsis to pit them against each other. But before the genocide, the two groups had overcome their hostility to live peacefully together.

Bizimana's wife said her husband, "would go around with the mob, and to show them he was part of it, he would kill."

"We were manipulated," Bizimana said. "The government pushed us to kill. Before that, we intermarried, we helped each other in daily life and we shared everything. We ourselves can't even believe what happened."

Perpetrators don't want to be seen as weak, and in a mob mentality, individual guilt seems to disappear.

"People will do almost anything in a group and will do anything not to be rejected," said psychologist Philip Zimbardo, a professor emeritus at Stanford and famous for his 1971 Stanford Prison Experiment, which divided student volunteers into "prisoners" and "guards" and showed how easily people could be induced to commit sadistic acts.

"They give up a sense of personal accountability and diffuse responsibility to the leader."

Propaganda and dehumanization

Genocidal regimes use propaganda to incite hatred. During the genocide in Bosnia, for example, a fictitious news report said Muslims were feeding Serb children to animals at the Sarajevo zoo.

When people feel threatened and endangered, they can be led to kill. "Most genocides are shaped on (a perceived need for) self-defense," said Christopher Browning, a University of North Carolina history professor who studied a Nazi police battalion.

Bizimana said Rwandan government radio broadcasts led him to kill. "When instructions come from the government, we believed it was the right thing to do," he said.

"People tend to believe the world is a just place," psychologist Staub said. So the targeted group "is seen as though they did something to deserve the suffering."

The propaganda machine portrays the victim group as less than human. In Rwanda, the Hutus called their Tutsi neighbors 'cockroaches.' In Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge said their victims were "worms." To the Nazis, Jews were "vermin."

Dehumanization is the most powerful psychological tool used in all mass murder and genocides, Zimbardo said. "Dehumanization blurs your vision. You look at these people and you do not see them as human."

Instead, the enemy is treated as a germ -- as something to eradicate, or else face the threat of infection.

"Purification is at the heart of genocide," said Harvard's Lifton. "In that purification ... (the killers) are healing."

Recently discovered photos show Nazi officers at a retreat near Auschwitz relaxing as though they are taking a break from a routine job, not an extermination factory. "In order to carry out the function of killing, one must instill in that environment a sense of ordinariness," said Lifton.

In the end, the masterminds of genocide see their visions play out: Foot soldiers carry out the mission and entire populations are displaced or killed.

Perpetrators and victims don't realize what they're involved in until it's too late, said Ben Kiernan, director of the Genocide Studies Program at Yale University.

"It's a conspiracy, a silent secret plan to set up a situation whereby the victims, who are unsuspecting, are brought into a conflict with a large number of people, many of whom are also unsuspecting," Kiernan said.

Looking back at their crimes, some perpetrators are now sorry for their actions, including Bizimana. "What we did to them in the past was very bad," he said. "Deep in my heart, I regret it."

Bizimana has since reconciled with his surviving Tutsi neighbors, and is trying to build unity in his country.

"What happened," he vows, "will never happen again."

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 7:28 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"And despite the experience of WWII which showed that 80% of soldiers will not shoot even in self-defense"

Sigy, where did you pull this little gem of b.s. from?

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Friday, December 19, 2008 7:28 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I wonder what I would do in similar circumstances.

I read about that experiment many years ago, and so I TRY to always check my conscience before following an order or doing what other people are doing. And after blowing an opportunity to help by thinking too long at freeway speed, I made a decision to ALWAYS stop, and THEN assess the need. But I probably go along more than I realize.

And some things change.

Despite being blasé about giving blood or having blood drawn, I hated drawing blood or doing 'finger sticks'. I DID it, but sticking a needle or lancet into people just made me cringe. Over the last few years, since I've been giving myself allergy shots, I've become desensitized to that. Needle, stick, me, you - it's all the same.

And I hated dealing with really sick or injured people - I found it emotionally stressful. It was one of the reasons I didn't push to get in to medical school or at least be a PA, and why chemistry appeals to me. Blessed unfeeling instruments ! But after dealing with sick family members, that seems to have worn off as well. (Either that, or it's b/c they're improved somewhat - yee ha !)

I always try to keep my humanity meter running - but I do wonder.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 7:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

I always try to keep my humanity meter running - but I do wonder.

Someone tries to kill me, I try to kill 'em right back- leaned that from a cool Captain somewhere.

Seriously, it's something I would do with no hesitation, defending myself or a loved one, I'd worry about my feelings on the matter afterward. Probably wouldn't sit to well with me, truthfully, but that's life....er...death...whatever.

The Shaolin Chrisisall

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Friday, December 19, 2008 7:55 AM

There's also unsettling psychology experiments that kind of support this.

Like the one where guys in labcoat pressured subjects who believed they were administering electric shocks to another subject to continue, even when doing so resulted in (acted) screams and pleading.

Or the one where a bunch of college students simulated a prisoner/guard system, and the experiment had to be stopped less then a week in because the students fell into their roles with surprising zeal. Some of the guards started abusing power, even approached sadism, and some of the prisoners, after initially trying to rebel, developed that despair-driven number anonymity that is seen sometime in long-term or abused inmates.

Real disturbing stuff about the nature of people and authority...

I mostly try to convince myself that cruelty isn't actually human nature. Most of the people in the first experiment I mentioned were troubled by having to continue, but merely trusted the percieved experts to know what they were doing, what was safe. That's not so horrible, although the unscrupulous could use that against a population, and probably did in places like concentration camps.

The college kids and their prison, though, that's harder for me to rationalize. Fact is, that sort of thing crops up wherever guards aren't specifically trained or chosen to not be abusive. You give people power over other people, let the ones with the power get bored and... well. It escalates, I guess. The things people do to others when they get the feeling they're better than them. Power's dangerous, and there's only a few types of people who should ever be trusted with it. If any. I still don't believe those student guards were inherently bad, not when they started the experiment. They just got corrupted by the situation.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 8:00 AM

All this s**t ends when peeps realize that authority is made up of schmoes just like ourselves, not elite or superior dudes, we're all just folk, and some of us need a severe reminding of that fact.

The bottom-lineisall

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Friday, December 19, 2008 8:00 AM

It shocks me that this is treated like news.

You can get people to do anything, as long as you make them feel like they're under some kind of threat or are the victim of some kind of plot. Scare them, define the enemy, massacre. People love "defending themselves", as long as their hulking threat is weaker and easily dealt with.

ETA: I'm sure this is directly related to the "I hope he gets raped in prison" impulse that many people seem to have.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 8:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

ETA: I'm sure this is directly related to the "I hope he gets raped in prison" impulse that many people seem to have.

That sentiment disgusts me, actually.

The humanity-driven Chrisisall

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Friday, December 19, 2008 8:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

ETA: I'm sure this is directly related to the "I hope he gets raped in prison" impulse that many people seem to have.
That sentiment disgusts me, actually.

Me, too. It's one the the things that make my blood run cold because it gets uttered like absolutely nothing is wrong with it.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 8:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Me, too. It's one the the things that make my blood run cold because it gets uttered like absolutely nothing is wrong with it.

It's the same mentality that justifies torture of the 'them'.

The wrong is wrong Chrisisall

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Friday, December 19, 2008 8:48 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I found in the article I posted a kind of synthesis of things I've been reading.

The thing about dividing the world into 'us' and them' - don't we all do it in some way ?

For example, there are many studies that show that a person who grows up with just white people had a harder time reading the expressions of, or just identifying, people other than whites. ("They all look alike to me.") So this may explain to some extent Jews and Nazis, because Jews were socially isolated from the rest of the population.

And further, the thing about diffuse responsibility to a 'system', about blaming 'them' for their problems, about not seeing 'them' as human - don't we all do that whenever we pass a homeless person on the street ? Capitalism is just the way the world works, they just have to get with the program, it's not really as bad for them as it looks ... we all participate in the dehumanization and destruction of other people, even if we never pick up a weapon.

And the article includes some of what I've been thinking about what we tell ourselves - not as individuals - but as a group. About who we are, about what our norms are, about what makes us 'us'.

But I think it's interesting that the article goes beyond individuals, events and particulars and does make some general statements about how our brains seem to work across cultures and times. About the division into 'us' and 'them', about the surrender of individual decision to the group, about the need to belong, and about our need to rationalize.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 8:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Me, too. It's one the the things that make my blood run cold because it gets uttered like absolutely nothing is wrong with it.
It's the same mentality that justifies torture of the 'them'.

The wrong is wrong Chrisisall

Or extermination of 'them'.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 8:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

The thing about dividing the world into 'us' and them' - don't we all do it in some way ?

Maybe YOU people do that....

*ironical sarcasm*

The indivivible Chrisisall

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Friday, December 19, 2008 9:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

And further, the thing about diffuse responsibility to a 'system', about blaming 'them' for their problems, about not seeing 'them' as human - don't we all do that whenever we pass a homeless person on the street ? Capitalism is just the way the world works, they just have to get with the program, it's not really as bad for them as it looks ... we all participate in the dehumanization and destruction of other people, even if we never pick up a weapon.

I'm not sure I can completely subscribe to this. There's still a distance between dehumanising someone and participation in or tolerance of aggression toward that someone, and not taking up responsibility for every suffering person around us, if that suffering is not based on direct aggression. Homelessness is a systematic problem and the solution to it is much less simple than just not complying with or participating in an act of aggression or dehumanisation.

There may be a relation between the two in terms of identification with a group, but it branches off earlier than you imply, methinks.

I'n not saying that indifference or lack of direct action pertaining to the homeless and suffering around us is not bad. I'm saying, though, that it's not quite the same as what the article is about.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 9:20 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I'm not sure how many homeless people you personally encounter every day - I think you are European living in Europe.

In the US it's very common. I was wondering what is the mental process that allows people to pass someone by who is obviously suffering. It IS a step away from rape, torture and murder, but I think the mental process is the same. They're a 'them', not an 'us'. They deserve it. You can't help everyone. The more you help them, the less there will be for you. The 'system' is a benefical system and has to work uninterfered with. And so on.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 9:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I'm not sure how many homeless people you personally encounter every day - I think you are European living in Europe.

I am, yes, but there are homeless people in my city, too, so I feel reasonably qualified to comment.

Quote:

They're a 'them', not an 'us'. They deserve it. You can't help everyone. The more you help them, the less there will be for you. The 'system' is a benefical system and has to work uninterfered with. And so on.

There is quite a leap you're making between "you can't help everyone" and "they deserve it". I don't think most people think the latter about the homeless, but most will feel that it is not really within their power to truly help, either. Nor do I think that most people think the system is necessarily beneficial (the homeless person themselves it an example of why not) but rather feel a helplessness to counter its failings individually, which is exactly the situation when you - individually - pass a homeless person on the street.

That line you blur between inaction and a rightous condemnation is one I think exists much more strongly than you claim.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 9:36 AM

I was raised to question authority so I've always doubted that I would continue to shock someone even if the 'authority' said it was necessary.
When I'm the authority and someone isn't sure what I've asked them to do is kosher, I give them two options: request not to do it, or give me full responsibility for the outcome if it's negative. I do my best to make sure no ones is ever uncomfortable with my orders.

Edited to add:

I don't pass a lot of homeless people in my daily life. The ones that claim homeless or jobless are often grifters. You can tell the difference. I do feel bad about the homeless and find ways that relieve me of that sadness. I help at food banks and donate clothes to shelters. Its' not perfect, but at least I'm helping the people that know how to help.

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown
www.thatcostumegirl.com
www.thatweirdgirl.com

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Friday, December 19, 2008 9:37 AM

In my city the visible homeless peeps are mainly drunks & mentally ill peeps. I say visible because I'm aware of a nearby shelter that houses families, and those are the ones you DON'T see begging for cigarette money, and they are larger in number than the visible ones if the stats are correct. Our community actually does quite a bit for those down on their luck, or suffering job & housing loss.

Anyway, I agree with AgentRouka that the "deserve it" thing is not a valid general feeling about it, except from the most callous of peeps.

The charitable Chrisisall

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Friday, December 19, 2008 9:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by thatweirdgirl:
I do my best to make sure no ones is ever uncomfortable with my orders.

You tyrant.

isall

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Friday, December 19, 2008 9:44 AM

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown
www.thatcostumegirl.com
www.thatweirdgirl.com

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Friday, December 19, 2008 9:47 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

It takes a lot to fix up a person's entire life, and some people are too damaged. I've seen it tried, and even after pouring years of effort, money, and even giving the person and their family a place to stay in the home, it didn't help out. (Or, same family trying to help others, years of undemanding work.) So, yes, I understand about the feeling of helplessness.

But what a lot of people tell themselves (I believe) is: it's a scam he/ she is not really homeless; he/ she is just a drug addict/ alcoholic and will just snort/ shoot/ drink up any money I give; they're mentally ill and won't benefit if I given them money; there are places for people like that.

So why not leave a little early and pick up a few sandwiches to hand out ? It may not be fixing up their entire lives, but it helps out for a day. And why look the other way and treat them like they don't exist ?

I really think there is a big divide, it is an 'us' and 'them' situation. And in the US (not in Europe) there is a whole rationale about why 'they' shouldn't get medical care, a government-sponsored place to stay, food and simple oversight. There really does seem to be an effort to eradicate 'them', if not by commission, then by omission.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 9:48 AM

RIVERLOVE

People are sheep, they do what they're told. A tiny fraction of people are leaders, the rest follow, and a few hide. I don't hear or obey Landrew. I stay hidden.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 9:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
People are sheep, they do what they're told. A tiny fraction of people are leaders, the rest follow, and a few hide. I don't hear or obey Landrew. I stay hidden.

You are not of the body!

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown
www.thatcostumegirl.com
www.thatweirdgirl.com

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Friday, December 19, 2008 9:58 AM

RIVERLOVE

Quote:
Originally posted by thatweirdgirl:
Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
People are sheep, they do what they're told. A tiny fraction of people are leaders, the rest follow, and a few hide. I don't hear or obey Landrew. I stay hidden.

You are not of the body!

Hey girl, whatcha doing at the red hour?

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Friday, December 19, 2008 10:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
why look the other way and treat them like they don't exist ?

I don't. Unless they're totally drunk. I got into a debate with a homeless crazy chick over ethics not too long ago!!! I told her using curse words would not help her get her point across, gorramit!

The eye-contacting Chrisisall

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Friday, December 19, 2008 10:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by thatweirdgirl:

You are not of the body!

Festival!
FESTIVAL!!!

Hahahahahahaha!!!!

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Friday, December 19, 2008 10:05 AM

When I walk down a street by myself and see anyone dressed shabbily with a sign, or if some same person asks me for money, I try to give them a few dollars or whatever change I have. I figure, even if they're trying to cheat me, they probably still need the money more than I do or they wouldn't be resorting to that tactic.

BUUUT... My immediate family, my parents in particular, they see it differently. They see people who aren't working hard enough, who are wasting whatever opportunities they might have had, who are probably alcoholics or on drugs.

They're family, you know, so I end up walking around with them a lot of times... I try to slip needy people money when they aren't looking, but if they catch me, they get really mad.

I'm ashamed to say, sometimes I affect that awful "I'm-refusing-to-look-at-you" stance along with my parents when the poor person's standing RIGHT there. I hate that. And really, I should just go ahead and think "screw it" with my parents, give the money anyway, because there's no way anything my parents have to say could be worse than what those people are going through. But I don't, because I can't bring myself yet to openly disobey them.

Well, I won't bow down again. There may be charities to help them, it may be society's problem, but those people are right there, and they're asking ME for help. If that help is money, I should give it to them. Doesn't matter if it "won't make a difference," at least I attempted it.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 10:07 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
So why not leave a little early and pick up a few sandwiches to hand out ? It may not be fixing up their entire lives, but it helps out for a day. And why look the other way and treat them like they don't exist ?

I tried that once with a guy who was asking for money to buy food. Since I had a leftover lunch with me, I offered him food instead. Turns out, he didn't want the food, he wanted money for... uh...bus fare and, uh... his diabetes medicine.

Anyway, I think there is more than just dehumanization going on in the Milgram epxeriment. Do you recall the experiment where children and monkeys were both taught to get a reward from a wooden box by poking a stick in various holes, and when the wood was replaced by acryclic- revealing that two actions were bogus- the monkeys immediately dropped the bogus actions but the kids persisted?

I think humans have been self-selected for obedience to authority. It's the only way we could have gotten to such huge population densities. (long story). What I see in MOST peeps is that what others tell them has more of an impact than real life. Makes it easier to teach nuclear physics and to pass on religion, but....

Just another way of saying... most peeps are sheeps. It has an upside, and a downside.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 10:19 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"So why not leave a little early and pick up a few sandwiches to hand out ? It may not be fixing up their entire lives, but it helps out for a day. And why look the other way and treat them like they don't exist ? "

True story: My wife was walking down the street, here in D.C....saw a homeless guy yelling for money. She had some leftovers from lunch, so she handed them to him.

"I said money bitch, not food!" was his reply.

Then there is the guy I pass EVERYDAY to work. Just stands there with his arm out, holding a cup. All day long he does this. I pass him going home in the evening too. Never gave him a dime, never will.

However, there is a guy in a wheel chair I also see everyday. Works part of the morning passing out "Street Sense" the local paper that benefits the homeless.

Afterwards, in the evening, he begs.

Anytime I got some spare change or a buck in my pocket, it goes right to him.

Funny thing (really sweet thing actually) that same guy gave me a Christmas card last week. Said he really appreciated the help I had been giving him, and wanted to thank me.

Some say that the "good" panhandlers can clear 800 a week. Don't know about that. But I do know that I pick and choose who I'll help.

Don't feel guilty for it either.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 10:28 AM

That was pretty rude... But maybe it was like the situation someone else mentioned about needing money for diabetes medicine.

If I were drowning, I wouldn't want to be handed a sandwich. For the homeless, for anyone, really, if they ask for a specific kind of help, maybe it's best to give them that help.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 10:30 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Anyway - sorry to derail the thread.

I was just musing. I appreciate the feedback.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 10:31 AM

I've seen it many times: give food to person(s) begging for money for food and when I walk back by the food is still there and person(s) are gone. That's why I help the shelters and such instead. I cross my fingers the ones that need it know where to go for help.

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown
www.thatcostumegirl.com
www.thatweirdgirl.com

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Friday, December 19, 2008 11:00 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

To try and put this back on track

SignyM wrote:
Friday, December 19, 2008 06:58
And despite the experience of WWII which showed that 80% of soldiers will not shoot even in self-defense, experiments show that in a one:one situation, peeps will torture if told to do so.

www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/12/19/milgram.experiment.obedience/index.html

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 11:14 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I'm not sure how many homeless people you personally encounter every day - I think you are European living in Europe.

I am, yes, but there are homeless people in my city, too, so I feel reasonably qualified to comment.

Quote:

They're a 'them', not an 'us'. They deserve it. You can't help everyone. The more you help them, the less there will be for you. The 'system' is a benefical system and has to work uninterfered with. And so on.

There is quite a leap you're making between "you can't help everyone" and "they deserve it". I don't think most people think the latter about the homeless, but most will feel that it is not really within their power to truly help, either. Nor do I think that most people think the system is necessarily beneficial (the homeless person themselves it an example of why not) but rather feel a helplessness to counter its failings individually, which is exactly the situation when you - individually - pass a homeless person on the street.

That line you blur between inaction and a rightous condemnation is one I think exists much more strongly than you claim.

In a lot of ways, I *DO* tend to look at the homeless and wonder what they did so wrong in their lives to end up this way, and wonder why they can't just pull themselves out of it.

Then I saw some show - can't even remember what it was, but it was some cop show, I think - anyway, two guys are walking down the street whan a bum comes up to them and asks for money. First guy basically tells the bum to shove off. Second guy pulls out a five and gives it to the bum. First guy says second guy is an idiot, and that the bum is just going to buy booze or drugs with the money, and he just wasted his cash. Second guy says (paraphrasing here) "I sure as hell hope he does buy booze or drugs. If I was that far down, all I'd want is to forget about my problems for a while. And $5 ain't gonna dig him out, so he might as well get drunk on it."

So yeah... while I might not understand, and I might not empathize too much, I *DO* sympathize and hope they can get wasted enough to not be miserable for a few hours.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Friday, December 19, 2008 11:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
To try and put this back on track

My Condo 'Authority figure', the head of the board, TOLD me to move my car so they could cut down a huge tree in front of my unit (Y'all may remember this story), and he TOLD me it was going to happen. I sat in front of the tree & said I was taking a nap there. He said he'd call the police, and I said that if a guy with a GUN told me to move, that was gonna be the only way because I did not recognize his authority. The tree remains to this day because that 'authority' bs don't fly with me. There's only "shoot me or buzz off."

The determined Chrisisall

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Friday, December 19, 2008 11:46 AM

CANTTAKESKY

It's funny that people are bothered by the results of the Milgram experiment, but have no trouble *being* the folks giving the orders.

What do I mean by that?

Here's an example. Most folks here have no qualms about legislating that children be forced to be vaccinated, against the will and choices of their parents. The authorities say vaccines are good, and folks have no problem backing up that a one-size-fits-all policy with the force of the law.

Voters give those orders, and then some poor smuck of a truancy officer has to push the button, separate the family or otherwise force the kid to get the shot.

I think the Milgram experiment should be required viewing in college. Those folks who pushed the buttons were protesting all the way, while pushing the buttons. If you can get it, the video is called "Obedience."

We have a problem with this blind obedience, but it seems most folks don't have a problem being the people who are blindly obeyed.

--------------------------
Dr. Horrible Karaoke

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Friday, December 19, 2008 12:08 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Here's an example. Most folks here have no qualms about legislating that children be forced to be vaccinated, against the will and choices of their parents."

AFAIK it's a requirement ONLY for the purposes of attending public shcool. Furthermore, you can claim a religious or medical exemption. If you don't send your kids to school - no problem. If you claim an exemption - no problem.

And please, no more bogus 'studies' about how the smallpox, polio and measles vaccines don't work - or, in fact how no vaccine ever worked - ok ? I'd hate to see people suddenly deciding to stop vaccinating their pets en masse against rabies; or for public authorities to stop spreading oral rabies vaccines in food bait. B/c then we could be like India and take number one spot for human rabies deaths.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 12:19 PM

Had that convo with the city council folk I installed prior to executing the final phase.

"Just remember, every order, every directive you give, no matter how petty, no matter how small, has the barrel of a gun behind it - and if someone fails to comply and takes that to an extreme, they'll die for it.
THAT is your responsibility, THAT is where this ends, if some guy doesn't wanna take down the shed that's fourteen inches wider than your stupid rules, won't submit to your orders and locks himself in with a weapon - then what ?
Then people die, him, anyone he takes with him, they're all on YOUR heads, YOUR conscience, and I want you to consider that awful damn carefully if and when you get to giving orders, I want you to think to yourselves whether or not it's worth killing over, because Government, once you strip all the pretty shine off it, is naked force, and that's all it is.
So I want you to think long and hard before you pull that trigger on anyone, whether the intended benefit is worth the potential human lives it may cost in it's enforcement."

And, of course, they looked at me like I was something from another planet, since that's so damn alien to most folks way of thinking that it don't even translate, but it had to be said.

I couldn't really tellya *why* I don't think like that, maybe being a social feral* had something to do with it, but I just... don't.

There's really no such thing as "Legitimate Authority", the very phrase is everybit as much a contradiction as "Military Intelligence" if you ask me.

-Frem

*That being the only term I can think of to someone who grew up in what more or less amounted to a vaccuum of authority and found our society so repulsive as to not invite participation.
My mother, being almost never present, used only the gentlest hand in guidance and rarely intervened, usually on my side of an issue when she did.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 12:22 PM

Don't start this crap again you two.

Both of you have legit gripes, and utterly refuse to recognize the others no matter what evidence is presented, cause there's significant factual evidence on both sides of the issue.

Have the damn decency to agree to disagree, especially since your own fanaticism blinds the both of you into raging and foaming, harming your own side of the issue.

Of course, that very fanaticism is prolly gonna insure I get ignored or railed at, but what the hell, someone needed to say this.

-F

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Friday, December 19, 2008 12:23 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I hate it when people spread lies. No matter which direction they come from.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 1:48 PM

Pots do always hate kettles, don't they ?

-F

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Friday, December 19, 2008 1:55 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Frem, when someone is a liar, they're a liar. And when someone is delusional, they're delusional. It's not me saying so that makes it so. But when someone diverges radically from reality...

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 2:38 PM

I call them as I see them Siggy.

And your buddy has shovelled some hefty ones in her own time, and has a rabid faith in the american medical care system so fully at odds with reams of existing hard evidence that I consider that, frankly, as delusional as the viewpoint that modern medical care is of no use whatsoever.

Go on, try to tell me that forcing that Gardasil crap was a good idea, given the wholly disastrous results of vacc that was not only almost wholly ineffective at doing what it's maker claimed but also was insufficiently tested in a loaded test series with poor scientific method and had a laundry list of very nasty side effects for very little potential gain ?

Or that direct injection of any formulation of Mercury or Aluminum isn't a health risk factor, especially for medicines that *can* be delivered without them ?

Or that the claims of "Safe" from the folks who have been proven wrong so many times before and have really damned obvious conflicts of interest should not be taken with a grain of salt ?

Or that there isn't significant corruption and collusion in the pharmecutical and medical care industries, especially given how Aspartame was approved, something we're thankfully, finally, phasing out without.. yanno.. actually *admitting* anything, of course.

There's good freakin REASONS I do not have blind and unquestioning faith in our modern medical care practices, and the idea of legally mandatory *anything* is a recipe for abuse to begin with and all the more so when you add corruption, corporations and politics to the mixture, resulting in lies, abuse and trickery.

That isn't to say there are not benefits, remember you are talking to someone first neglected and left to die by modern medicine...
Who then got their hooks in the right places and was reconstructed a'la Frankenstein with it, up to and including a very state of the art reciprocating mechanical prosthetic leg that he himself was part of the design team for.

I see it's benefits, and I also see it's FAILURES, and am not shy about pointing either one out wherever I have enough knowledge of the topic to do so.

But to dare point out and decry those failures seems to be an ultimate act of heresy these days, and watching folk catch hell for it does not exactly endear me to the pitchfork-toting horde delivering that hell now does it ?

I also happen to know a damned great deal about nonconventional medicine, a lot of which although less effective can be gentler and safer if used correctly.

Case in point, by overuse I kinda abraded the skin on the end of my stump recently, and this is NOT something you wanna do cause all the damage, poor circulation and whatnot, it's a magnet for infection, and the amount of antibiotics required to prevent or stave one off is both a bit silly, and a little dangerous in that it could provoke a resistant "superinfection" which is bad, bad news.

So I went with a leopardsbane and alum salt poultice covered with a heated wrap and changed hourly, which did the job quite effectively in combination with a mere 400mg of conventional ibuprofen to cut down the pain and inflammation of both the injury and the worn out knee above it which had swelled slightly.

And I don't *need* a damn MRI (or the bill for one!) to tell me that my knee is just about worn out on that side.
I'll agree to new ones only when I am finished with the ones I got curse it, cause they work well enough for the time being and if I replace em now I'll have to do that again in another 8-10 years, which I might still have no matter what the docs think.

Seriously, I know enough about both ends of it to see not only the flaws and benefits, but I have a finely toned bullshit detector, mind you, and not all of it has come from one side, that's a fact.

And not just on this issue, either, cause I been biting my tongue every time certain blatantly falsified "studies" have been offered on other topics, but if an issue is to be made of it, then perhaps I shall do so.

Flaming someone cause they violate your own little preconceptions and shake the towers of your faith is a different thing than simply pointing out the flaws in their data - especially when dealing with grey area issues that have other relevancies like when does the good of the individual trump the good of society and whatnot.

I've been nice, so far, leastways for me - but if you wanna be hateful to a person cause they don't believe what you believe...

Then damn well ADMIT that, don't hide it under a mask of reason and logic, I didn't care for it politically, and I don't care for it scientifically, and *will* provoke it's exposure.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, December 19, 2008 3:33 PM

DREAMTROVE

There's some valid stuff here, even in the CNN article, but at the same time, a lot of misleading information, even in the CNN article.

During sectarian conflicts, about 1% of the population is being actively destructive, even in door to door warfare. The 80% non-killers seems close, maybe even low.

Experiments which have been done are omitting an essential piece of information: They are selecting their subjects in a very non-random manner.

I was pushed way passed the breaking point, and the thought of violence to others never occurred to me. I think it's probably not natural, but indoctrinated. No amount of violent movies and videogames made me violent either. It's somewhere else.

If you put two male rabbits together, they will become gay. This may seem like nature, but it's nurture. Put dogs in a pit, some of them will fight, but usually they've been bred down to a boardline functional level. Notice they don't fight border collies.

There's much more to this mystery, I'm moving on, but as usual, I just wanted to erase an ! and write in a ?

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Saturday, December 20, 2008 3:00 AM

RIVERLOVE

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by thatweirdgirl:

You are not of the body!

Festival!
FESTIVAL!!!

That is too damn funny! So obscure, yet so vivdly memorable, hysterical!

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Saturday, December 20, 2008 4:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
If you put two male rabbits together, they will become gay. This may seem like nature, but it's nurture.

Become gay or just engage in homosexual activities? I.e., will they mate with girl rabbits if you set them free again?

I'm not really asking, though. I used to have a rabbit and when put in y cage with my male guinea pig... yikes. Didn't for a second think he was now wholly interspecies homosexual. Rabbits just seem very liberal about who or what they mate with. Liberal or so desperate as not to be choosy...

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Saturday, December 20, 2008 5:23 AM