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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Some of the lefties claim Obama's sold out, some righties claim it's the Clinton Admin all over again, what do YOU think?

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Originally posted by Hero:

Yes, man...yes.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Some of the lefties claim Obama's sold out, some righties claim it's the Clinton Admin all over again, what do YOU think?


ThethreadforRiverloveisall

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I think people elected Obama for all the wrong reasons. He was elected because he was black.

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He was elected because he wasn't Bush.

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No one really cared what he stood for and who he is.

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He's an inexperienced senator with ties to questionable people who ran on idealistic rhetoric and promises he couldn't keep and probably never intended to. What is going to happen is the Clinton people, that Obama is putting in poor or has put in power, are going institute an extreme version of Clintonia, which no one is going to like. We elected a man for ridiculous reasons, instead of his much more qualified opponent, now we're just going to have to hope for the best.

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Originally posted by Kirkules:
It seems likely that Obama will end up being the yes-man, going with whatever suggestion an advisor throws at him, because he definitely won't have the nads to say no to any suggestion that someone "smarter" than him says will fix the economy.

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Originally posted by whozit:
Do you think Barry has sold out to the Righties?

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I think people elected Obama for all the wrong reasons. He was elected because he was black. He was elected because he wasn't Bush.

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Opinions: Will Obama create the balanced, non-yes-man atmosphere in his administration that he says he's going for?
ThethreadforRiverloveisall

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HERO

Yes, man...yes.

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FINN MAC CUMHAL

I think people elected Obama for all the wrong reasons. He was elected because he was black. He was elected because he wasn't Bush. No one really cared what he stood for and who he is. No one even knew who he was and we still don't. He's an inexperienced senator with ties to questionable people who ran on idealistic rhetoric and promises he couldn't keep and probably never intended to. What is going to happen is the Clinton people, that Obama is putting in poor or has put in power, are going institute an extreme version of Clintonia, which no one is going to like. We elected a man for ridiculous reasons, instead of his much more qualified opponent, now we're just going to have to hope for the best.

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Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero

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KIRKULES
Obama is already showing that he is incapable of standing up to the political forces that cause Presidents to always do the wrong thing in a economic downturn. His stimulus package is just more money thrown from a helicopter to do something, because nobody knows what the right thing to do is. At least the Bush package is mostly loans that could potentially pay off someday.
Considering the points Finn just made I think Obama is doing about as good as anyone else would do in his situation. It seems likely that Obama will end up being the yes-man, going with whatever suggestion an advisor throws at him, because he definitely won't have the nads to say no to any suggestion that someone "smarter" than him says will fix the economy.
Borrowing and spending is what got us into this situation. I heard someone say the other day that the first thing to do when you want to get out of a hole is to stop digging.

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WHOZIT
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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Some of the lefties claim Obama's sold out, some righties claim it's the Clinton Admin all over again, what do YOU think?

Do you think Barry has sold out to the Righties? How much did Barry sell his soul for? I'd give him $5 for it.

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CHRISISALL
Wrong. No offense, but I think you're reading a lot of lefty-ness into a situation where peeps simply saw Palin as not only a poor potential VP, but a sign of poor-decision making on the part of an otherwise competent-seeming McCain.

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FINN I think: No one really cared what he stood for and who he is.

Chris I think: Again I feel you are over-simplifying due to partisan resentment; I knew where he stood on most issues, and I'm a dope. Smart peeps like yourself should have had no trouble with it.

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FINN
He's an inexperienced senator with ties to questionable people who ran on idealistic rhetoric and promises he couldn't keep and probably never intended to. What is going to happen is the Clinton people, that Obama is putting in poor or has put in power, are going institute an extreme version of Clintonia, which no one is going to like. We elected a man for ridiculous reasons, instead of his much more qualified opponent, now we're just going to have to hope for the best.

CHRIS Thank you, little Miss Sunshine
I can hang with some part of that, but you just sound now like I did four years ago when I predicted martial law & nuking Iran before Bush left office- I have mellowed since then though, thankfully.

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CHRISISALL
"Chrisisall Chi: Master Of Adhomeynem- Fu."

Monday, December 29, 2008 - 13:13



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Originally posted by Kirkules:
It seems likely that Obama will end up being the yes-man, going with whatever suggestion an advisor throws at him, because he definitely won't have the nads to say no to any suggestion that someone "smarter" than him says will fix the economy.

I hope you're wrong there, but I certainly can't rule it out as a serious possibility. He is a politician after all.


The realistic Chrisisall

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Then again, I'm freakishly liberal, at least when it comes to social issues. I will probably be disappointed in presidential politics for my entire life.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:

I would've voted for Palin.

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What someone knows about the world is not really all that important. Sarah is just folks.

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It's what nefarious globalist totalitarian elitists you have connections to that determine the damage you can and will do.

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When McCain nominated Palin, I lauded it as America's Harrison Bergeron moment, and laughed. But this didn't cause McCain to lose. He was pre-ordained to lose, just as Obama was pre-ordained to win.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
This is so commentworthy I should comment on it, but I won't, except to say; Don't worry, you're disappointment only comes from your expectations.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:

I would've voted for Palin.

*tries in vain to hide grave disappointment*

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It's what nefarious globalist totalitarian elitists you have connections to that determine the damage you can and will do.

I don't disagree with this particular point.

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When McCain nominated Palin, I lauded it as America's Harrison Bergeron moment, and laughed. But this didn't cause McCain to lose. He was pre-ordained to lose, just as Obama was pre-ordained to win.

"'What happens in a man's life is already written. A man must move through life as his destiny wills.' -Caine
'Yes, yet each man is free to live as he chooses. Though they seem opposite, both are true. I do not understand it.' -Old Man
The quoting Chrisisall

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YINYANG
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
This is so commentworthy I should comment on it, but I won't, except to say; Don't worry, you're disappointment only comes from your expectations.

I know - our society (and the human world at large) is pretty fucked up, and I want it not to be fucked up. I'm constantly disappointed. Why I haven't descended into nihilism is probably because I keep my fingers in my ears and my eyes closed most of the time, and when I don't do either I cling to delusions and fantasies of a better world for everyone.

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Back on topic: Focusing on the word "balanced," I'm changing my answer to no.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I think people elected Obama for all the wrong reasons. He was elected because he was black.

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Wrong. No offense, but I think you're reading a lot of lefty-ness into a situation where peeps simply saw Palin as not only a poor potential VP, but a sign of poor-decision making on the part of an otherwise competent-seeming McCain.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Some of the lefties claim Obama's sold out, some righties claim it's the Clinton Admin all over again, what do YOU think?


ThethreadforRiverloveisall

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Originally posted by yinyang:
Uh... constitutional law professor, Harvard graduate, good speech-ifying, and being the nominee of one of the major parties don't count? Because if all it took to be elected president was to be black and not Bush, Jesse Jackson should have been president from 1984 to 1992.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

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Originally posted by yinyang:
Uh... constitutional law professor, Harvard graduate, good speech-ifying, and being the nominee of one of the major parties don't count? Because if all it took to be elected president was to be black and not Bush, Jesse Jackson should have been president from 1984 to 1992.

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Yeah, he’s a very good speaker, but all that means is that he was able to make good use of being black and not Bush.

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Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

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Originally posted by yinyang:
Uh... constitutional law professor, Harvard graduate, good speech-ifying, and being the nominee of one of the major parties don't count? Because if all it took to be elected president was to be black and not Bush, Jesse Jackson should have been president from 1984 to 1992.

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Yeah, he’s a very good speaker, but all that means is that he was able to make good use of being black and not Bush.

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Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
He was elected because he was black. He was elected because he wasn't Bush. No one really cared what he stood for and who he is.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
she was set up. Then gave her no prep, and Katie Couric was working for Obama, and that was the only real interview she got. That's a total frame job. Sure she wasn't ready for it, but how many random people would be without notice.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
when he took on the globalists and special interests, he had to be removed.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Wrong. No offense, but I think you're reading a lot of lefty-ness into a situation where peeps simply saw Palin as not only a poor potential VP, but a sign of poor-decision making on the part of an otherwise competent-seeming McCain.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Some of the lefties claim Obama's sold out, some righties claim it's the Clinton Admin all over again, what do YOU think?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
What does it say about Bush that all one has to do to be elected President is be "not Bush"?

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Originally posted by RiverDancer:

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
He was elected because he was black. He was elected because he wasn't Bush. No one really cared what he stood for and who he is.

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As a vote in his particular column, I have to call bullshit on this.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
But I don't think McCain's stupidity cost him the election, I think that it was unwinnable.

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It's not a democracy, the whole set up is jut to make it look plausible, after that, it's a cheatocracy. Whoever the machine says won, won. If that doesn't work, try the supreme court.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It doesn’t say anything about Bush. It says something about the media.

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Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
So let me get this straight - you're saying that the media selected Bush the last two times around, and that just goes to prove he was indeed NOT the best candidate out there, but just the one the media decided to deify - because he was "southern" and NOT Clinton.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Riverlove

I think you are still confusing the two: Government and Country. You know what the popular support for the Government of Saudi Arabia is in their own country? 1%. That's what happens when you have a govt. that tramples the rights of the people and doesn't give a damn. Here, we're nowhere near that, but we're headed in that direction.

Take our Firefly backdrop. No one in Firefly ever curses the verse, or even the inner planets, they curse the alliance and the Blue Sun corporation.

One does not equal another. George W. Bush is not the United States of America, nor is he Texas. He's a random guy who is a front for a lot of other random guys who claim to be ours.

Watch the primary process, and decent conservative compete. I liked the nutjob, myself, Ron Paul, I also liked Mike Huckabee. I don't hate John McCain, but do you remember the media trying to shove Rudy Giuliani down our throats? What was that all about? So, I'll admit, the cheatocracy is not perfected yet, but it's no level playing field.

Even if it was, democracy is not a great form of govt. It's manipulative at best, and the optimal end goal is for 52% of the people to marginalize the views of the other 48%. That's not how I would design a fair and balanced govt, in either direction.

I never indicated any dislike of America. The govt. is a fraud. It's a usurper. I could prove this, if you care to take the time. The FEC is a puppet, and I've actually worked in the electoral system. It's a total sham. There's a mass media that filters what 90% of the people here, making them biased, and if that fails, there are ways to gerrymander and manipulate, and then there are countless points along the way where people can simply lie.

The biggest cheat that Bush pulled in 2000 was bringing Steve Forbes into the race. Forbes wasn't a free agent, he was working for Cheney at the time, and so was Bush. It was Forbes job to basically say whatever McCain said to steal the primary. I don't think Bush stole the general election, I think that Clinton was horridly unpopular and Gore was as doomed as McCain was in 2008. But I do think he manipulated the primary.

Not convinced? How about Perot in 1992? and 1996? What was that all about. I worked for the Perot people, and know the whole story. It was about manipulating the election. It's how an unpopular Bill Clinton, boosted from 2% to 39% by round the clock efforts of the media to sell him as a product, to waltz into the whitehouse with a smaller % of the vote than Mike Dukakis, and towing sex scandals and a big drug-related money laundering scandal.

Here's a figure for you: 2/3 elections in US history have been decided by the third part splitter.

Take the Election of Wilson in 1912. Wilson walking in with 33% of the vote, and was arguably the worst disaster ever as president. How? Because Wilsons people, with I kid you not, the strong support of the KKK, organized and funded the progressive party to split Taft's vote. When it became obvious that their chosen Progressive candidate was not going to chip off enough votes from Taft to make him lose, the Progressives, under direction from the Wilson people, switched gears and nominated Teddy Roosevelt. This made the cheat plausible. Still, they had to fudge a few figures in a few states and get that popular vote, but the resounding electoral victory, in an almost dead even three way split, came from a situation where regionally, Roosevelt and Taft were getting there votes from the same areas.

This is our democracy, and how it works, and I'm not shooting in the dark here. I know the system very very well. I've worked in it for years, and have colleages and friends who have worked many more years in it. The system isn't just corrupt, it's designed that way.

I have nothing against America. I have serious issues with the elite core of manipulators in washington who call themselves our govt.

This is why I like being out of power. I don't care to organize to win. I care to organize to protect America from its number one threat: This monster that has grown up in washington DC.

I think you'll find on both sides of the aisle that this is the majority feeling on the board.

Always assume that all advertising is false advertising. If a product really did what it said "the quiet easy start lawn mower" well, we would all know, and it wouldn't need to advertise it. Check across the spectrum of our whole society, and you'll find this is true: Advertising is the are of lying to the public.

Now consider how much the govt. advertises the need to support you govt, which it calls country, but they don't mean go help your neighbor, or protect our resources or environment, they mean support your govt, give it money, and go fight for its buddies overseas. Then count they number of times that they say "we must be united" and then pull up the specter of some imaginary or exaggerated threat. And then they sell us on the idea.

That's not country, it's government, and the people who make the real decisions in this country are the cabinet and their advisors, completely unelected officials, that the figureheads our manipulative system puts in place are there to obey unquestioningly. If you check the background of some of the key presidential advisors, and more than a couple have already been found guilty of perjury, obstructing justice, and destroying evidence to protect them from what they're really guilty of: Treason. And yet they still serve in govt.

Your nation and mine has been hijacked by a cabal of globalist elitists who represent international oil cartels, drug cartels, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Communist China, everything but America. Taking it back requires a lot more than winning an election.

If I recall, all of this was stated pretty loud and clear in the subtext, and sometimes the text, of Firefly.

Sorry for the rant, I get annoyed with the love it or leave it attitude. I own this govt. nothing. It set up shop here, and spends 3 trillion a year with no tangible results, sends people, friends of mine, to die for its own elitist agenda, and it has nothing to do with this nation, its people, its values, or even its industry. Its a fraud. [/rant]

ps. if you're so ready to give up that you're going come down to "support the gangsters with the biggest guns" or "flea in terror" then there's already something wrong with the picture.

The country can be saved. The government is a hopeless disaster. If you're not convinced, look at everything the federal govt. has ever done, starting with its first major action as a democratic state: The indian removal act.

My suggestion. We ignore the existance of the govt. and organize a new America in its place. Keep everyone's income taxes to zero, and fly under the radar for as long as we can.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Some of it was Bush, some of it was not, but nonetheless, the media made certain it was all blamed on Bush and by extension the Republicans and McCain.

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Originally posted by Riverlove:
I guess when you say that you love America, you must be referring to the land and the water

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Or was Bush pushed into our brains the same way?

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Some of it was Bush, some of it was not, but nonetheless, the media made certain it was all blamed on Bush and by extension the Republicans and McCain.

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Why would a lefty Clintonista like myself even entertain the possibility of voting for McCain then, if I was so swayed by the media masters? It was only after hearing Palin speak a few times that I was easily able to rule out McCain entirely. Finn, when folks voted for Bush, you didn't seem to think they were mostly media-brainwashed monkeys, but now you do? Or was Bush pushed into our brains the same way?

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
son of a former president.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
I watch news from the BBC, & listen to NPR.
And I read the Enquirer at Stop N Shop.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
son of a former president.

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What does this even mean? So what?
Do I detect an American version of respect for royalty here?

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Originally posted by Riverlove:
I stick with the more traditional forms of information: Bazooka Joe bubble gum wrappers, and fortune cookie notes from Madame Wang's Take Out.

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And thirdly, Bush was not a nobody. He was governor of Texas, son of a former president. His politics were believed to be well known...

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...you probably should find a easier topic to debate.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
No. And if you don’t know what it means, you probably should find a easier topic to debate.

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Originally posted by ElvisChrist:

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And thirdly, Bush was not a nobody. He was governor of Texas, son of a former president. His politics were believed to be well known...

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Oh horseshit. You obviously knew nothing about him, or you'd know that Governor of Texas is worth about zero-point-shit in the real world. His "politics" weren't known at all. What WAS known - at least here in Texas - is that he was a drunk and an idiot, and couldn't name a single world leader at the time.

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