Israel about to get its ass kicked by piratenews

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

DreamTrove

I don't think Rap is here to discuss. It's been argued to me (an argument I found persuasive) that he's here to proselytize the word of Rush.

I guarantee he will not answer your reasonable questions with reason, if he answers them at all.

***************************************************************

PS At one point many years ago he mentioned that he was a liberal until he saw the light. Either way, his politics are a religious belief with him, and have nothing to do with facts or reason.

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 6:05 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

dream - I'll not have semantics derail the discussion here. Diaper heads seem rather tame, for folks who'd fire rockets into homes, strap bombs onto mentally retarded young people and use them as weapons against crowds of civilians.

Under no circumstances will I refer to them as 'freedom fighters'. ( I'm refering to those carrying guns, bomb vest, and the like, of course, and NOT the general populace. Though 'militants' is far too tame as well. )

To quibble over what amounts to name calling when 100's and 1000's of humans are dying, seems rather trivial.

So, how about HTs , for Hamas Terrorist ? That's the best I can offer, so as to distinguish from the fine, upstanding men, women and children who DON'T chant 'death to Israel' and carry weapons in open combat.

I'm for Israel dealing w/ this on their own, and not, as the IDIOT Geraldo Rivera suggest, putting the US mlitary in the middle, to act as a buffer. Nothing could be worse, imo.

How's that ?

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 6:09 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So, you

1) KNOW that it's Hamas

2) KNOW the intent (as well as the identity)

3) KNOW that the 'right to self defense' allows disproprotionate response as well as illegal targeting of civilians.

More Rap 'facts', for sure.

From all the available info I can find, yes. Sorry if you don't like them or agree. And what if I'm right, does that change your view of what's happening there one iota ???

I'll tell you this, and I'm as sincere and honest as the day is long....if those are NOT the facts, then my view not only should change, it would BE FORCED to change.

Lemmie make sure you undestand my point..... if the facts NOT as I've stated, and if my view and understanding isn't accurate, I'll absolutely change my position.

Would you ?

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 6:23 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Yes.

But, the only things you think are 'facts' are those things you already agree to. I'm not quite so limited.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 7:03 PM

Hamas Terrorist is acceptable. I disagree with it, but it's not racist. Any variation on "towelhead" is an epithet, and that was the worst yet. It can in no way be intrinsically construed to refer only to Hamas.

Hamas, afterall, was started as a terrorist organization, and has only recently become a political party.

Let me take a parallel. If I were to refer to the RUF as sh*tskins it would be taken as a racist remark, because they're black, and then taken to refer to all blacks. If I call them reavers because they torture dismember and eat people including children, including their own, then it is merely their behavior specific to them and no one else that I disparage.

Rivera is a moron, and the US military in the middle is a moronic idea.

As for the 1000s they're killing, I think that a lot of it is friendly fire. They're not a threat to Israel, and I think peace is possible, but I agree with Rue that peace is not wanted by a party that thinks it can win.

I hold to my position that both parties see Hamas losing this one, and so Hamas would sue for peace and Israel would refuse. This seems to be what repeatedly happens. If the US withdrew support, that might not equal the odds, but it would tilt them slightly, and it would take away the welfare that Israel wants. This would cause them to rethink the scenario, and then maybe peace negotiations would be possible.

Here's why I favor the two state solution:

If one state wins, they are now about 6 million each, which means one will have 6 million of the other as a subjugated population. That population is liable to rebel and revolt, which will lead to a crackdown, and, if the winning partner had enough power, it might lead to rounding them up in camps. This is the worst possible scenario, until they genocide all 6 million.

Now, if they US abandons Israel, and the arab world, not the muslim world, but just the arab world, continues to support Hamas, then they could win, after about 20 years or so. If the US continued unchecked support, Israel will win fairly quickly, might still take a few years. Either way, we end up with a worst case scenario. I can't care which semitic ethnic group gets oppressed or exterminated, one is not better than the other. Both are collections of 6 million people largely innocent with a small group of people in govt. who seem to be resoundingly a**holes on both sides.

But, if the US suspends aid, temporarily, in protest, and gives Israel time to rethink the situation, they might stop the offensive. No offensive will definitely mean fewer Israeli deaths, and fewer Palestinian deaths.

Now, I disagree with Rue that you are here to spout Rush, I think I keep tabs on the Rush position. My recollection was that you worked for a defense contractor, which puts you somewhere close to Finn, but currently with a thinking cap on.

Please consider for a moment the possible endgames.

1. Israel wins and ends up an unstable state controlling an unhappy population that relentlessly engages in terrorism against the state, and makes up 1/2 the population, making a failed state.

2. Hamas wins, unlikely, but resulting in 1. above only hostile to the US.

3. One wins and exterminates the other resulting in a holocaust.

4. No one wins and this civil war continues indefinitely.

Now I don't see from a US military position where any of these scenarios are advantageous. So, logically, what's the position here?

I reiterate that Israel was an ally in the Gulf war, but not in the Iraq war because it was not a stable enough state in the Iraq war to make a reliable ally of. We can't have our forces somewhere where they are going to be attacked. And I can guarantee if Israel wins the war that the number of terrorist attacks in Israel will skyrocket. You don't need an IQ of higher than an above average dog to figure that out. I think the parakeet has that one covered.

My understanding is that there are some extremist zealots on both sides, and the Israeli side has a lot more guns, and so they are doing a lot more damage, but that this war doesn't help us at all.

If it turns out that JSOC is supplying arms to Hamas it'll herald a horrific new conspiracy theory.

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 7:18 PM

Yes, we must only use politically correct terms when referring to our enemies, because we wouldn't what to offend them while we're killing them.

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 7:19 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

rue, you're gonna have to elaborate on that for me. I'm a bit at a loss for how to answer.

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 7:25 PM

Facts

Okay, someone is going to have to research this, and then come up with an agreement. I suggest both sides.

My guess is this: These guesses are based on logic. I find the human being to be one of the most predictable animals on the planet, and so I'm seldom very far off.

1. Hamas is fighting and bombing in a time of war which is right now. In a time of peace, like not right now, like before, and the occasional ceasefire, then it is NOT-Hamas. NOT-Hamas would be some Palestinian terrorist group which might have at some point in the past been part of Hamas, but splintered off when Hamas became a political party.

2. KNOW the intent (as well as the identity) Oh, this is hard to say. The intent of the Govt. of Hamas is a two state solution. This is not the intent of all Palestinians, or the arab world, nor is it the intent of the current govt. of Israel though I think it's acceptable to most of the people of both Israel and Palestine. There seems to be more fear of a jewish state in the wider arab world than in palestine itself.

3. Right to self defense does NOT allow targeting of civilians. Asymetrical warfare is a trickier question. Given that the US, China and Russia have all engaged recently in targeting civilians, and that this is not new, it's hard to make a moral condemnation of Israel for doing so.

It's easy for me, from a religious perspective to condemn all of the above for doing so, but for the US to condemn Israel for Gaza after Fallujah and Belgrade, and similar incidents, I think would be hypocritical.

My take would be this is not the same case as S. Ossetia.

In S. Ossetia, where Russia could be argued to be in the wrong, there was an extenuating circumstance that Georgia had laid seige and invaded S. Ossetia. This gave an additional justification. Also, terrorist attacks against Russia had been coming from Georgia via, Al Qaeda, Mujahideen. This is the sort of motive being used in the Israel Gaza case. But it's much weaker in that it does not have a secondary motivating cause, and also, and more importantly, S. Ossetia invited Russia in, with a 70% vote in favor of Russian assistance.

Virtually no one in Gaza wants an Israeli invasion. Remember, before the Iraq war, a large % of Iraqis supported the US. If Bush hadn't been a moron and opened with "Shock and Awe" we could have turned that into a solid majority.

But nothing is going to turn this into a legal war.

That said, does Israel have a justifiable grievance against Gaza? Sure. Do they have a justifiable cause for war, under interenational law? Of course not. That would be like saying that the US could invade Canada or Mexico because of the cross border conflicts. If we allow this logic, every nation on Earth would then be permitted to invade all of its neighbors. Most notably:

China>Afgh>Paki>Nepal>Bhutan>India
India>China>Pakistan>Bangl
Pakistan>China>India>Afgh
Afgh>Pakistan>China>Iran>Uzbek
Iran>Afgh>Iraq
Iraq>Iran>Turkey>Syria>Saudi
Syria>Iraq>Saudi>Turkey>Lebanon
Lebanon>Syria>Israel
Israel>Palestine>Syria>Egypt>Jordan
Egypt>Israel>Sudan>
Sudan>Chad>Eritrea>Ethiopia
And the Africa thing would spread across the whole continent in chain.

If you want a recipe for WWIII I think this is it.

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 7:35 PM

Quote:
Yes, we must only use politically correct terms when referring to our enemies, because we wouldn't what to offend them while we're killing them.

Okay, this is the third dumbest thing to be posted on this board.

The correct would be to call them "The democratically elected govt. of the sovereign nation of Palestine," the PC term would be something like "Islamo-semites."

I was willing to grant Auraptor "Terrorists"

But respecting one's enemies is the most essential rule of battle. Fortunately, this came from Auraptor, and not the state of Israel.

After all, the terminology was below what slaveholders called their slaves, even in roman times. It's what psychopaths call the people they are about to genocide, and is never used by anyone else.

Mind you, if the shoe were on the other foot, I can, and have, taken the same position against Islamic terrorists. There's no room for this kindergarten racism in any political discourse. I appreciate that he backed off.

Have some respect. These are people that we disagree with. Many arabs and Palestinians believe that Israel is a military beachhead colony for a western invasion. Hamas believes that it is a rogue state. Both of these are political opinions with which we happen to disagree. But that does not make the people who hold them inhuman.

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 7:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Okay, this is the third dumbest thing to be posted on this board.

woo,hoo I'm number three. Coming from the biggest blowhard ever to post here, that's a major achievement. Unlike Finn I don't have the patience or intellect to put up with your endless drivel, so why don't you just go yourself.

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 7:56 PM

okay, so my post wasn't exactly emily post, i was just being honest. you could take it like a man.

I promise you, there is no greater enemy of PC on this board, or off it, than myself. The very idea of PC is fascism.

However, dehumanizing racist rhetoric is tacit approval of genocide.

Don't believe me? Go back to WWII and see what Germans compared jews to. In fact, any point in history. When you compare any ethnic group to fecal matter, it's a red flag that you are about to genocidally exterminate the entire race. It's got a pretty good record.

Don't take comments like that too personally, people say a lot worse things all the time. I think you just did. It's not likely to annoy me. I think Finn just won the first point. No, someone who is no longer here offended me two years ago. twice in four years is not a lot.

I guess the PC term for you would be neanderthal-american. :)

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 8:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

I guess the PC term for you would be neanderthal-american. :)

I'll take that as a complement.

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 8:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Show me where Hamas deals with the supposed non-Hamas factions that are bombing Israel?"

Show me that that it's Hamas. Then we can talk.

It’s not sinking in, is it, rue? Let me spell it out for you. Hamas IS the government. Either they are attacking Isreal or they can’t control their people. Either way, THEY, Hamas, the government of the Gaza Strip is RESPONSIBLE. If you can’t understand this, then you should go find yourself a simpler discussion to involve in this, because this one over your head.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 8:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Finn,

Without mutual respect there is no dialogue, so reading this is pointless. Do yourself a favor and don't waste your time reading mine.

For the record, I already laidout a detailed analysis of why I defend the defender, including when it is Israel. Also, for the record, the only thing that will get more jews killed is war. Not peace with Palestine.

Yeah, well that’s Hamas’ point. That’s why they start so many wars with Israel, to kill Jews.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Also, your insults to me, my intelligence, and your acclaimed facts of your invented fantasy world do not offend me, as I said, I'm almost impossible to offend. You have, however, succeeded.

It’s not my intent to offend you. If you are then I’m sorry, but that doesn’t change anything I’ve said. It’s my intent to point out how you apologize for every Jew hating bastard in the Middle East. And I’m going to do you a favor and pretend that you didn’t just evoke the tragedy of the Holocaust as a plea to emotionalism in an attempt to win an argument on the internet.

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 8:33 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"It’s not sinking in, is it, finn? Let me spell it out for you. The US government IS the government. Either they are attacking Mexicans in a drug war or they can’t control their people. Either way, THEY, the US the government of the US is RESPONSIBLE. If you can’t understand this, then you should go find yourself a simpler discussion to involve in this, because this one over your head."

***************************************************************

Simple enough ?

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 8:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So, you

1) KNOW that it's Hamas

2) KNOW the intent (as well as the identity)

It’s not necessary to know either of these of things. All we need to know is Hamas is the government of the Gaza Strip. They are either attack Israel or they are failing to provide the security necessary to prevent attacks against Israel. Either way, the fault lies squarely with Hamas.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
3) KNOW that the 'right to self defense' allows disproprotionate response as well as illegal targeting of civilians.

I have yet to see any evidence the Israel targets civilians.

What’s proportionate response? Hamas targets civilians in Israel. So Israel should target civilians in the Gaza Strip, right? If Hamas kills 12 civilians, then the IDF should round up 12 Palestinians and the kill them? So you’re in favor of Capital Punishment? Because if someone commits murder, then to be proportionate, we must kill them? What if someone kills your wife? Should the proportionate response be to kill the murderer’s wife?

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 8:41 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

" All we need to know is Hamas is the government of the Gaza Strip. They are either attack Israel or they are failing to provide the security necessary to prevent attacks against Israel. Either way, the fault lies squarely with Hamas."

It’s not sinking in, is it, finn? Let me spell it out for you. The US government IS the government. Either they are attacking Mexicans in a drug war or they can’t control their people. Either way, THEY, the US the government of the US is RESPONSIBLE. If you can’t understand this, then you should go find yourself a simpler discussion to involve in this, because this one over your head.

***************************************************************

Get it, now ?

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 8:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"It’s not sinking in, is it, finn? Let me spell it out for you. The US government IS the government. Either they are attacking Mexicans in a drug war or they can’t control their people. Either way, THEY, the US the government of the US is RESPONSIBLE. If you can’t understand this, then you should go find yourself a simpler discussion to involve in this, because this one over your head."

Except the US isn’t attacking Mexico, but points for desperation.

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 8:42 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

And you and have no proof Hamas broke the cease fire. But, points for straw-men.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 8:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
And you and have no proof Hamas broke the cease fire. But, points for straw-men.

There are rockets being fired from the Gaza Strip into Israel. That breaks the ceasefire. Cease – Fire. IT means to stop, or cease, firing rocket into Israel. When the rockets begin firing into Israel, then the “Cease” “Fire” has been broken. See how that works.

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 9:34 PM

Quote:
It’s not my intent to offend you. If you are then I’m sorry, but that doesn’t change anything I’ve said. It’s my intent to point out how you apologize for every Jew hating bastard in the Middle East. And I’m going to do you a favor and pretend that you didn’t just evoke the tragedy of the Holocaust as a plea to emotionalism in an attempt to win an argument on the internet.

Sorry, what you just said is you stand by your insult, to me, my family and six million or more dead. You stand by your desire to see more semites die on both sides of the line because it makes more gold for your coffers in the MIC.

Don't do me any favors. I have no interest in winning an argument on the internet. I'm refering to the fact that you invoked the holocaust as a means of insulting me. That you stand by having done so is unforgivable.

A close friend of mine, and a Rabbi, just passed away, his son just emailed me that he is also very sick with pneumonia. These are things that emotionally effect me.

At present, I can't confirm that you even know a jewish person, let alone have any connection to the holocaust. You've said or done nothing to convince me that you are up to anything other than profiting from another war.

I also said in that post that my direct ancestors were in the Germany govt. Clearly they weren't Nazis, and they were killed for their opposition, along with their jewish and non-jewish relatives. Do you think that I, or they, supported the Govt. of Germany in its extermination of them?

If the answer to that was obvious than it is equally obvious that I can oppose, as can the jews that I know oppose, the actions of the Govt. of Israel for an action which will kill more jews, and non jews, a distinction that as a non-racist I do not make. I strongly oppose war. It will lead to only death and long term instability, and maybe profit for Finn.

I don't, nor will I ever, hold the people of Germany accountable for what happened. They are not responsible for a govt. which seized power and seized control of industry, instituted gun control, a draft, and then enslaved its people and neighbors to do its bidding. And if you are reading Riverlove, you will see that *this* is the separation between govt. and country.

Nor will I ever hold the people of Israel responsible for what its govt. does in Gaza and the west bank. But that does not make it not wrong.

You know that I will always defend the defender against aggression. Painting me as a "jew hater" looking for another holocaust is a double insult when you know the effect of the holocaust on my family.

Yet you stand by all of your offensive remarks. From now on, do the world a favor and show your true colors, Use the terms k*ke and sandn*gger from now on, that will be much more your style. Just as long as people die, you make a buck.

It's Finn's job security.

For the record, I don't think that Hamas hates jews, but they're getting there. I know that Ahmadinejad does not hate jews. He has said this repeatedly. He supports the right of Jews to live in their holyland, he never claimed that Israel should be wiped off the map, he just believes in one state solution. I disagree with him on this issue.

But there are a lot of "jew hating" bastards in the middle east, and I defend none of them. Top on the list I believe are your friends the Saudis. They don't recognize Israel, they fund terrorists against the jewish people, they clearly hate jews. I'm not about to defend them.

As for lebanon, I took no position, I only said it was an own goal, meaning, bad weapons choice, our bad weapons choice, caused the Israelis to abort. As for the govt. of Egypt, I have serious issues with that govt. I don't have major issues with the govt. of Jordan which is generally more accepting of Israel. Syria I have issues with because they're communist, but not because I think they're anti-semitic.

But quite frankly, how dare you. You throw around "jew-hater" and "anti-semitic" and the holocaust like it's a magic shield, and you can't face the fact that you're hurling it at someone who was actually effected by the holocaust, and actually knows some practicng jews who don't support this war.

You used the holocaust shield, not me, and it backfired, and now you want to accuse me of playing the whiner.

Take your gold and go buy a bomb, see how many semites you can kill. Enjoy your f^&king war. I hope it makes you a big old raise.

I said I wasn't going to read any more of your posts. My mistake. You sanctimonious son of a b*tch.

If you have any creds of your own for taking your position, post them.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 2:21 AM

RIVERLOVE

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Their strategy seems to be kill 500 women and kids for every Hamas leader killed. Where are their precision drone plane killers like we have? Or elite commando units?, or in-country assassination teams? This pending ground invasion is reminiscent of the razings of all the Polish ghettos during WWII. And then what kind of bloody, deadly and disgusting mess is going to be left there? Compared to what the Nazis did to Jews in WWII, a few rockets fired into their country that kill almost no Israelis seems like a tea party, and a very weak case to make to become what their former tormentors were to them. They should have done more to avoid or lessen this possibly politically-motivated aggression.

Why do you hold the Israelis to such a ridiculous standard. I suspect it's because you've never had missiles rain down on your neighborhood randomly. This isn't a war movie were a couple of commandos can go in and save the day. This in an entrenched terrorist group supported and enabled by the populace. Other than the children, there are no completely innocent victims. No country can win a war if they let the enemy set the terms of battle. The Palestinians have chosen to support the terrorists and therefore chosen to suffer the consequences. You seem to have forgotten that the purpose of this war is to stop the missiles for the long term not to exchange casualties with the enemy on their terms.

Civilized people must be held to some measure of standards for their actions. First they put on their grand air show, with thousands of sorties engaged in a massive un-challenged orgy of destruction and death, now under the multi-camera equipped Fox & CNN News crews, they roll their tanks in. I don't think it was a case of having no other options, but more a case of one political vacuum (USA) and one political opportunity (Olmert worried about Netanyahu).

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 4:07 AM

Riverlove,

My point earlier, of how bad this is for Israel/Jews. It's a movie, where the actors get killed. It's a propaganda movie where the bad guys swapped swastikas of stars of david, and, since cameras are everywhere, that footage is probably available. The footage that most people didn't see about Iraq is enough to destroy the US image in the arab world forever. God forbid that Obama keep up policies like Bagram prison in Afghanistan.

Oh, and Angelina *is* there saving her Palestinian baby. Madonna is there trying to be as Jewish as she is British.

The idea of no innocent civilians is a dangerous one. It might be the tipping point that turns war into genocide.

Sorry I blew my top at Finn. I was sick of insinuation that I was sympathetic to a second holocaust because i disagree with Finn. What I could tell Finn that he doesn't know about the holocaust could probably fill a book. For my own mental health I'm putting Finn on ignore. I wish this forum actually had that function. I was talking to a Jewish friend on IM at the time, whose father had just died, and he had pneumonia. He didn't just invade Gaza, or set up any subprime mortgage scheme, but he's going to get the blame. There is no right side on this one.

Meanwhile: Obama is saying Please God make this go away before I'm president and have to say something about it.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 5:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

I promise you, there is no greater enemy of PC on this board, or off it, than myself. The very idea of PC is fascism.

However, dehumanizing racist rhetoric is tacit approval of genocide.

So, you don't believe in PC but anyone who uses language you don't approve of is a Nazi genocidal slaveholder. Do you ever think before you post, because you posts read more like incoherent babble.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 5:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Sorry, what you just said is you stand by your insult, to me, my family and six million or more dead. You stand by your desire to see more semites die on both sides of the line because it makes more gold for your coffers in the MIC.

I stand by my interpretation of your comments, which isn’t made any less accurate by your crocodile tears. If you wish to be insulted, then knock yourself out, it doesn’t change how you go to outlandish extremes to whitewash the despicable actions of Middle Eastern terrorist factions, as you condemn Israel. You have two choices; you can try to make your arguments a bit more balanced, or you can cry like a baby and hope that if you whine long enough about the Holocaust that it will make you right. But it won’t. One has nothing to do with the other, it just demonstrates how your interpretation of the Middle East is based on emotionalism and not fact.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 6:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Civilized people must be held to some measure of standards for their actions. First they put on their grand air show, with thousands of sorties engaged in a massive un-challenged orgy of destruction and death, now under the multi-camera equipped Fox & CNN News crews, they roll their tanks in. I don't think it was a case of having no other options, but more a case of one political vacuum (USA) and one political opportunity (Olmert worried about Netanyahu).

For the record, everything that the IDF has done is according to military strategy. First you use air support to degrade the enemy’s defensive capabilities then you go after their attack capabilities, and finally you send in group troops to secure the area. What Israel has done is not for show. Shows of force doesn’t help Israel at all, and they know that.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 6:14 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Show me that that it's Hamas. Then we can talk.

Can I ask you rue, what is your personal view of the culpability of the Hamas government, if at all, for all of the thousands of rockets that were launched from gaza throughout the ceasefire?

Do you think they took part themselves in these attacks, out of uniform or whatever? Or did they quietly cooperate/supply other factions with weapons behind the scenes? Or did they just wink at all the other factions strolling past them carrying Kassams on their way to the launchsites?

Or do you genuinely believe, as you are defending them, that there is no complicity of Hamas in the rocket attacks?

Or maybe you think that despite them being the acting government bound by ceasefire, they have no responsibility to step in and prevent acts of war against a neighbouring state...?

Heads should roll

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 7:01 AM

Quote:
KIRKULES
So, you don't believe in PC but anyone who uses language you don't approve of is a Nazi genocidal slaveholder.

No, just nazis. I'm sorry, is that not PC enough for you? Should I say pro-death lifestyles?

Quote:
CUMHAL posted, how unfortunate

CUMHAL: You just don't know when to stop kicking someone's dead relatives. So, if you care about real victims of the real holocaust, then you're are a crybaby, if you want to use the the holocaust as godwin rhetoric for your own anti-semitic fantasy, then you're CUMHAL.

You know, when I first signed on to this forum several people PMed me and said "don't respond to CUMHAL, he's a nazi." I ignored it then. I give. Not an epithet, just an objective identification.

Abandon thread, abandon thread! This is a waste of time. The fascist crowd will never see reason.

Meanwhile, huge demonstrations against Israel in NY. Lot of jews in those demonstrations. They know what's coming. They get that they're being played. Someone is stoking the fires of anti-semitism, both anti-arab and anti-jewish. I think it's some of you guys.

I've asked several times for a political rationale, but none has ever been given. All I hear is that anyone who acknowledges the real holocaust, rather than having wet dreams about one to come, is called names. Well, this is really high minded rhetoric.

Fortunantely, now you have revealed your true motivation. You're just rejoice in death. I believe one member actually said "nazi nazgul."

If I lose this argument, then fine, I lose this argument, but I'm not likely to forget you dancing on the graves of my ancestors.

What a pig.

KPO.

If you're not another spokesperson for fascism, and are actually interested in the answer, Yes, of course there is no complicity of Hamas in the rocket attacks *before* the Israeli attacks.

Use your brain. Hamas is trying to act in the interests of its own survival. It's not a mindless killing machine.

Israel is also acting in its own survival, but has been given carte blanche, and so has opted for completely elimination of palestine.

Israel could've have sought a UN resolution, or international backing. Instead, there was a resolution condemning this unchecked war of aggression.

Israel is nothing to admire at the moment. I still support the idea, but they're really losing my sympathy. It's another tin plated dictatorship on a war of aggression. With any luck, the Israelis will throw the bastards out, if they can. This nonsense is just creating a new generation of anti-semitism.

BTW, for anyone who thought I was offended by anything else, I said, one other time, when people started a "lets kick off Pirate News" thread. Anti-one person threads should be avoided. But I'm not a holocaust whiner. I avoided the topic for a long time, but then some a**hole had the audacity to dance on their graves and blame me.

If he happens to wonder why I react negatively, he should probably try going up to black people and say "n*ggers are inferior, move now" and see how well that goes over. I think he might get an ass kicking, and while I oppose violence, I think that this sanctimonious prick is in need of one.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 7:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
You just don't know when to stop kicking someone's dead relatives. So, if you care aboutreal victims of the real holocaust, then you're are a crybaby. If you want to use the the holocaust as godwin rhetoric for your own anti-semitic fantasy, then you're CUMHAL.

You’re such a joke. You’ve spent half this thread trying to deflect the issue away from your biased rhetoric to pleas to emotionalism about Holocausts. You’ve spent half this thread evoking Godwin. When you decide you want to deal with the issue, instead of making pleas of emotionalism, then let me know. Until then you’re a joke – not the Holocaust victims that you have shamelessly flaunted to cover your own bias, but you. You’re the joke. Yes, we all know that the Holocaust was a horrible tragedy, but it doesn’t make you any less full of Bullshit.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 7:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
KPO.

If you're not another spokesperson for fascism, and are actually interested in the answer, Yes, of course there is no complicity of Hamas in the rocket attacks *before* the Israeli attacks.

Use your brain. Hamas is trying to act in the interests of its own survival. It's not a mindless killing machine.

So Hamas can attack any nation they want. They have to do it by proxy. Israel can do the same thing. Israel should get itself a terrorist faction and start raining missiles down on the civilian targets in the Gaza Strip. That would satisfy you and rue. You can tell the world how Israel isn’t to blame and rue could tell us all how Israel’s response is proportionate.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 7:51 AM

Cumhal,

You invoked the holocaust, to attack me, and godwinned the argument. I will continue to post that as long as you continue to slander me. I have nothing more to say to you. Your personal insults mean nothing. I was offended and still am by your party on my ancestors graves. Please stop commenting on me. You don't know dick about me.

You've never given a rationale for your yen for WWIII, or your hatred of jews, and semites in general, and I'm no longer interested in why.

To everyone else.

New theory, sent to me by a jewish friend: Hamas is a puppet govt. for someone else, another arab power, the Saudis, or Eqypt, someone who wants into this war, and is willing to sacrifice the Palestinians in order to get it.

If true, this make Israel look like suckers, Hamas look like a**holes, and the Palestinians look totally f^&ked.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 7:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
You don't know dick about me.

I know you’re full of crap.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
New theory. Hamas is a puppet govt. for someone else, another arab power, the Saudis, or Eqypt, someone who wants into this war, and is willing to sacrifice the Palestinians in order to get it. Not my own theory, an american jewish one, but plausible. If true, this make Israel look like suckers, Hamas look like a**holes, and the Palestinians look totally f^&ked.

So now Hamas is blameless because they are being controlled by some nefarious outsider. Of course, this nefarious outsider is an ally of the US. No coincidence there, of course! Iran would never be behind such a thing, except that that is exactly what they do, but only with Hezbollah. If we were talking about Hezbollah and not Hamas, you wouldn’t even suggest such a thing.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 8:35 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
KPO.

If you're not another spokesperson for fascism, and are actually interested in the answer, Yes, of course there is no complicity of Hamas in the rocket attacks *before* the Israeli attacks.

Sorry dreamtrove, I don't have the time to take you seriously. You have your own strange, complex worldview which I'd rather just leave you to.

Heads should roll

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 8:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
KIRKSOMETHIN
So, you don't believe in PC but anyone who uses language you don't approve of is a Nazi genocidal slaveholder. Do you ever think before you post, because you posts read more like incoherent babble.

No, just nazis. I'm sorry, is that not PC enough for you? Should I say pro-death lifestyles?

I'm not the one feigning offence at others choice of language. Feel free to call me a Nazi all you want. The point is that if I change my language because you called me a Nazi, that legitimises your attempt at enforcing Political Correctness on me. I find it offensive the way you use the term "Jew" as if Jew=Nazi, but I won't call you a terrorist sympathizer to try and stop you from using specific language. Why do you always assume that when others use a negative epithet that they are referring to an entire race or country when they're really only referring to those that would like to see us all dead.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 8:53 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

I hope the Palestinian Semites massacre all Israeli non-Semitic European White "Jews".

However, Israel founded Hamas, who is allegedly firing these useless rockets at Israel.
www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10456.htm

Less than 10 Israelis have been killed by Hamas rockets in 10 years. So obviously not a good military strategy to win a war. But great if you don't want your false-flag psyop to piss off too many Israelis, who just might lynch their Communist dictators.

Hamas rockets "justify" Israeli martial law, concentration death camps, and Holocaust of Palestinans (the only rightful citizens of "Israel").

Israel founding and "infiltrating" Hamas is straight from Pentagon's Jewish Operation Northwoods, which requires hiring enemy soldiers to attack US military bases.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1

Just like Jewish president LBJ hiring Israel to sink the USS Liberty and blame Egypt, to "justify" the Israeli invasion of Egypt.
www.gtr5.com

So it's not likely that Israel's Hamas will allow itself to defeat the Israelis.

This is like the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, where the Lebanese military stood down, but the CHRISTIAN Militia wiped out the Israeli army invasion. To "justify" that invasion, Israeli soldiers were arrested inside the Lebanese border, while Israel and the Jewish media mafia in USA lied that the soldiers were kidnapped in Israel.

Israeli defence chief resigns over Lebanon invasion debacle
www.greenleft.org.au/2007/695/36098

If Gaza City is to defeat Israel, it will be required to do so without "help" from Hamas. Hamas has already said it is "standing down" in Gaza City, "to set a trap for the Israelis". Not likely. Maybe there's enough CHRISTIANS in Gaza City to kick Israel's ass?

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 9:04 AM

KPO

Whatever. Most people on this forum consider me reasonable. I rarely get irritated, but read back: cumhal's treatment of the holocaust above, never once acknowledging that perhaps it is wrong to accuse descendents of holocaust survivors for causing the holocaust.

It was a rat bastard thing to do, and I called him on it, and he won't come clean. What he did was an insult, and unforgivable. "I'm sorry you were offended but don't take back what I said" is the real non-apology. It's essentially saying "Heil," so, he was asking for it.

As for my world view, it's called "informed." Sure there are a few who disagree with me on certain points, but they seldom doubt that I am informed and relatively fair and balanced. Also, very difficult to offend.

If you mean to support the holocaust, as he does, then by all means, do so, but don't call my world view "strange." I think I'm in the overwhelming 99.999% majority here.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 9:10 AM

Quote:
I find it offensive the way you use the term "Jew" as if Jew=Nazi,

Um, I would be the one here with any connection to jewish people or the holocaust, no, I didn't say jew=nazi, and it's offensive that you did.

When people use variations on towelhead they know it's an epithet for an entire people. If you called Obama a dumb n*gger, the epithet would offend all blacks, not just Obama.

Cumhal,
Don't communicate with me again. It's a total waste of both my time and yours.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 11:42 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
KPO

Whatever. Most people on this forum consider me reasonable. I rarely get irritated, but read back: cumhal's treatment of the holocaust above, never once acknowledging that perhaps it is wrong to accuse descendents of holocaust survivors for causing the holocaust.

What did he say exactly, could you quote it? I never saw anything.

I'm saddened by your account of the price your family on your father's side paid during the war, as I am by all personal accounts of suffering in the holocaust - but I'm also wary that personal suffering should never be a trump card people can play to take the moral high ground and win arguments.

Whether or not you have a reasonable worldview (I haven't read all of your words), your first words to me were an invitation to defend myself from the charge of being a fascist, and you never really recovered in my eyes - when you apportioned zero complicity to Hamas for the rocket attacks I'm afraid I lost interest.

As I say you have your own considered, established view of the situation, and so do I. Since your conclusions are so strange to me I don't hold out much hope for intellectual common ground.

Heads should roll

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 12:04 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
In Iraq, the pentagon stated that a certain number of IED attacks were actually our guys driving over own unexploded cluster munitions. When asked for a number, they said "could be as high as 95%."

Could you provide a cite for this?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 1:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Whatever. Most people on this forum consider me reasonable. I rarely get irritated, but read back: cumhal's treatment of the holocaust above, never once acknowledging that perhaps it is wrong to accuse descendents of holocaust survivors for causing the holocaust.

I’d love to see where I said that. Why don’t you provide a quote?

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 7:51 PM

Geezer:

Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
In Iraq, the pentagon stated that a certain number of IED attacks were actually our guys driving over own unexploded cluster munitions. When asked for a number, they said "could be as high as 95%."

Could you provide a cite for this?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

I posted the link when it happened. I think it was Rummy's last or close to last conference, or just after he quit. around that time.

If I run across the link, I'll repost.

By no means do I intend to imply that there are no IEDs. A close friend of mine had his ear blown off when one was thrown into his Hummer in Baghdad.

A great deal has been written about landmine scattering because it violates the land mine treaty, which specifies that all nations maintain exact coordinates of all mines placed so that they can be removed after the war. It's been widely used by the US since Kosovo, and the Israeli condemnation of our cluster mines leading to their lebanese defeat is also worth reading.

Lebanon and Hezbollah rejoiced in victory celebration, but in reality, they had barely fired a shot. The Israelis quickly realized that they could not complete the mission without heavy home casualties due to the mines.

The nature of the cluster bomb is such that the cargo is not immediated known, and the substitution was a last minute decision. My suspicion is that this is stupidity rather than malice, since "newer is better" is a common train of thought, and the Israeli plan called for using a WWII era weapon. Which, for the record, probably would have worked.

The attack was a PR disaster as well. It raised Nazrallah to messiah status, and brought support for Hezbollah to an all time high, bringing in not only Sunni support, but Christians as well. Israel would have done much better to play to the Christian sympathies and against communist influence.

I feel no restraint is needed in saying that Israel makes a strategic error consistently in resorting to the gun too quickly. The US, China, and Russia are no different.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 7:52 PM

KPO

Quote:

What did he say exactly, could you quote it? I never saw anything.

I'm saddened by your account of the price your family on your father's side paid during the war, as I am by all personal accounts of suffering in the holocaust - but I'm also wary that personal suffering should never be a trump card people can play to take the moral high ground and win arguments.

Whether or not you have a reasonable worldview (I haven't read all of your words), your first words to me were an invitation to defend myself from the charge of being a fascist, and you never really recovered in my eyes - when you apportioned zero complicity to Hamas for the rocket attacks I'm afraid I lost interest.

As I say you have your own considered, established view of the situation, and so do I. Since your conclusions are so strange to me I don't hold out much hope for intellectual common ground.

I hold to very little, except a respect for the sanctity of life, all life, and a mistrust of power, especially in excessive amounts, worst when centralized and single minded of purpose. My positions on issues that sway many voters are often changed by people here and elsewhere. I've just changed a position on the 2nd amendment, the fourth time I've done so in my life. The in favor crowd won me over in a recent debate.

I am sorry that I hurled insults at people who offended me. It's difficult to offend me, but not impossible, it has only happened twice in four years.
It was not I who pulled out the holocaust as a trump card. Never in years here have I discussed my losses to the holocaust. I have still not gone to the point of saying that though we think of ourselves as a free market society, we all inherit something. I grew up underground, as a child, I worked for pennies, literally, so that I could by food, to share. My fathers family were billionaires. Their fortune was estimated to be one of the largest ever. This never dismayed me, except that the seized wealth was undoubtedly used to fund the war machine. Tragic loss of life happened before my time, people I never knew, so my family was small, my name obscure and my existance impoverished. I don't hate. Control over such feelings is core to the tenets of my belief, and I feel ashamed when pushed to the limit.

But someone did just that, by pulling out the holocaust card in a completely bogus manner, to use against me, which was just insult to injury.
Consider that often homeless, poor, even starving, I have no real education, four years of intermittent elementary school. The reference is gone now, he must have edited it out. The insinuation was that I was looking forward to a second holocaust against the jews, more than insinuation, outright stated, that because I do not support the invasion of Gaza, I am a "jew hater" and apologists for the islamofascists. This shouldn't have even meritted a response.

Ignorance reigns, apparently at military intelligence.

New information on Hamas that I was sent by a jewish friend last night made me change my position. I posted it, but the gist was that, as a palestinian sympathizer himself, said that Hamas moved in when the PLO abdicated the fight by signing on to things like Carter's peace deal. Islamic Militants saw this as weak and doomed, and wanted to fight, and Hamas moved in with strong foriegn assistance from neighboring arab states.

That assistance, he said, was control, from people in the arab world who didn't want peace, but were willing to sacrifice palestine to keep the fight against the jewish people alive. Hamas was an agent of intollerance, and no friend of the palestinians. His argument was convincing. He didn't support the invasion, did support humanitarian aid, but didn't have a solution.

As is often the case in these debates, one person strikes a deep invective that scars and insults, and other people unwittingly pile on by defending the position, unaware of the offense just committed. You can't have known, and my apologies for lashing out at everyone who was defending Israel's actions.

At the moment, I'm forced to review my analysis of Israel's action as more to be pitied than censured. If Hamas is an agent of intollerance funded by Sunni extremists as my jewish friend suggests, and I have no reason to doubt, and their game is to keep this conflict alive and make Israel and the Jewish people look bad, and sacrifice the palestinians, who the other arabs view as poor, uneducated, and in many nations, as literally "a slave race," then Israel fell for it hook line and sinker.

Also, some comments from people I received recently to the effect that educated and informed are not the same thing, and that while some people on the forum who are undoubtedly far more educated them me may sound superior, and believe themselves to be so, they can also be willfully ignorant. I'm not refering to you, but some other posters, and that one should no more take offense from them than from a child. While this may be an insult, I'm sure that a rural uneducated poor peasant like myself is valued very lowly by people in our academic govt. establishment, and that I cannot insult them. I try to do my best not to be insulted in turn. I'm flattered that there are many people here who take my input quite seriously.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 8:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
At the moment, I'm forced to review my analysis of Israel's action as more to be pitied than censured. If Hamas is an agent of intollerance funded by Sunni extremists as my jewish friend suggests, and I have no reason to doubt, and their game is to keep this conflict alive and make Israel and the Jewish people look bad, and sacrifice the palestinians, who the other arabs view as poor, uneducated, and in many nations, as literally "a slave race," then Israel fell for it hook line and sinker.

It’s pretty common knowledge that Hamas is heavily supported from sources external to Israel and the Palestinian territories. One of my very first points in this discussion was that this external funding had to be dealt with before any resolution could come. But you have this strange unhealthily love affair with Hamas. Even when you finally admit that you’re wrong, you still can’t bring yourself to accept that the righteous Hamas could have any culpability in the current events. I don’t know what you find so fuzzy and lovable about these people, but they are anything but. Hamas is built on the concept of killing Jews. It’s in their damn mission statement for Christ sake. They are not being coerced into attacking Israel. They are perfectly capable of doing that all by themselves.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 8:48 PM

Quote:
It’s pretty common knowledge that Hamas is heavily supported from sources external to Israel and the Palestinian territories. One of my very first points in this discussion was that this external funding had to be dealt with before any resolution could come. But you have this strange unhealthily love affair with Hamas. Even when you finally admit that you’re wrong, you still can’t bring yourself to accept that the righteous Hamas could have any culpability in the current events. I don’t know what you find so fuzzy and lovable about these people, but they are anything but. Hamas is built on the concept of killing Jews. It’s in their damn mission statement for Christ sake. They are not being coerced into attacking Israel. They are perfectly capable of doing that all by themselves.

Do not bait me to debate. This post is a rant of personal attacks and bigotry, and not worthy of a response.

I was aware of the foreign funding, but not to the extend that it was essentially a foreign created entity. I have always had a deep dislike for Hamas, which began with their celebrations of successful terrorist attacks during their pre-political days. I merely states that they are the democratically elected govt. of Palestine, and while I'm no great fan of democracy, that in itself would encourage them to act in their own self interest.

Any govt. is capable of doing anything. The US govt. is capable of turning on its own people and attacking them for no reason, and has done so many times in the past. I'm no fan of govt.

I'm simply stating my position, with the only slight modification that it was a foreign-generated entity, which does subtract from its legitimacy if I cared, but also subtracts from the degree to which they are likely to care about the lives of palestinians.

I am not debating your rant. I'm defending my own position, as mischaracterized above, again.

In the future, please stop. I will not allow you to define my positions, and in so doing I will have to waste my time.

The only reason I can attempt to appeal to is that you must also waste your time in order to defame me.

I possess nothing, you are a man of prestige and power, it seems odd that you should care to try to discredit me. I see no reason why you should care.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 9:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Do not bait me to debate. This post is a rant of personal attacks and bigotry, and not worthy of a response.

uhm, okay.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I was aware of the foreign funding, but not to the extend that it was essentially a foreign created entity. I have always had a deep dislike for Hamas, which began with their celebrations of successful terrorist attacks during their pre-political days. I merely states that they are the democratically elected govt. of Palestine, and while I'm no great fan of democracy, that in itself would encourage them to act in their own self interest.

Hamas may be an elected government but that doesn’t mean that it will act its own self interest or its people’s self-interest. Hamas is an ideologically driven faction devoted to the promotion of hating Jews and killing Israelis. There entire existence is devoted to make Israel an Islamic state. In their view, that’s their only self-interest. And they will do this to their own demise if necessary.

The scorpion made a deal with the crocodile to take it across the Nile on its back. The Crocodile was hesitate to do this because it knew that the scorpion could sting it and kill it, but it went along because it logically thought that the scorpion would not risk its own life. Halfway across the Nile the scorpion stung the crocodile and as both began to sink to their death, the Crocodile asked “Why? Now we will both die.” To which the scorpion responded, “Because this is the Middle East.”

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I possess nothing, you are a man of prestige and power, it seems odd that you should care to try to discredit me. I see no reason why you should care.

I respond to your posts because at the moment your view of Hamas is curious. Whatever prestige or power I may have means nothing here. I’m just an opinionated Browncoat, just like you.

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Monday, January 5, 2009 3:55 AM

Quote:
your view of Hamas is curious

I'm not their fans, I never was. Humans act logically unless under the influence of drugs. They're no different than any other animal.

No nation is actually more responsible for the Govt. of Hamas than us: We pushed Palestine to become a democracy and elect a govt. It was probably a no brainer that this is who they would elect, just like Iraq electing Al Sadr's party. Ultimately, the Afghans will elect the Taliban. As soon as the Taliban realize this, the will stop fighting.

The whole situation is a hitch that in the master plan somewhere we overlooked. We assumed that they would elect reasonable people that we would have elected. They didn't.

One Iranian I know, who voted for Reform, said to me after the showdown began with the west, "I wish I could go back and vote for the Islamic Engineers instead." He lives here, of course, and doesn't want death to America, but he said "It was a better choice for Iran, and I was thinking what would be best for the US." But the people who live there are never thinking what would be best for the US. We don't go to the polls thinking "What would be great for China?"

I know someone married to a chinese woman who would defend china to the ends of the earth who voted for obama, who had taken an almost racist tack against everything chinese. But he was voting for what was best for the US.

The Palestinians voted the way they thought best. In the middle east, people are still people. If Hamas shows that they are the patriots willing to stand up to the west, especially if they should, like hezbollah, by some freak, win, then the people will reward them.

Think about 9-11, and Bush and Rudy Giuliani. Now, you don't have to take my angle that Bush and Rudy were the attackers inside guys to realize that Bush and Rudy did nothing to defend america. Nothing at all, on that day. And yet that very same day, they were catapulted to heroes because they were defending america.

Humans crave a hero. If they don't have one, the make one up, or cling to what they can. First John Kerry was a war hero, and then John McCain. In McCain's own word's his heroism: to disobey orders and drop a bomb on a town. Sure, he also endured extra torture, whether this was to get them to free others, or as he said in his book "to spite" Recalling his own experience, Kerry pulled a man out of the water, during or near a firefight, but when asked to relay a tale of heroism, he told us the story of shooting some vc kid in the back.

Here's a war hero:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4589486.stm

Most people don't have heroes, and so they put the image onto the people they do have.

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Monday, January 5, 2009 4:14 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Geezer:
Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
In Iraq, the pentagon stated that a certain number of IED attacks were actually our guys driving over own unexploded cluster munitions. When asked for a number, they said "could be as high as 95%."

Could you provide a cite for this?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

I posted the link when it happened. I think it was Rummy's last or close to last conference, or just after he quit. around that time.

If I run across the link, I'll repost.

I tried googling "could be as high as 95%." and "cluster bomb", and variations, and couldn't come up with anything about this. Until you provide a cite, I guess it'll have to be considered apocryphal and not usable to support your argument. To do otherwise would allow you, or anyone else, to just make up stuff.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, January 5, 2009 4:27 AM

apocryphal means hidden.
I saw the newscast. I'm sure that if you scan press conference on IEDs and cluster munitions around the time, you'll find it. I'm too busy, and don't care enough about winning an argument.

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Monday, January 5, 2009 4:46 AM