Israel about to get its ass kicked by piratenews

Quote:
Of course, rue. Hamas is warm and fuzzy. They could never be responsible for any action that would put Jews in danger.

Of course, finn. Israel is warm and fuzzy. They could never be responsible for any action that would put Palestinians in danger.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 8:39 AM

Quote:
If Hamas fires missile into Isreal, it’s someone else, not Hamas. Hamas isn’t even responsible as the government of the Gaza Strip. This is your argument. This is what you have posted.

Let's put your situational ethics to the test. If, say, an American soldier tortures, beats, shocks, and possibly kills an Iraqi prisoner in Abu Ghraib, is that HIS doing, or the doing of the United States, since he's there on our orders, doing our dirty work?

According to your own logic, and what you've posted here, the "bad apple" isn't responsible; his government is, because it (a) should have known better, and (b) should have been able to control its people.

Likewise, if a group of mercenaries working for Blackwater shoot up an Iraqi street, killing 17 unarmed civilians, then that is of course the responsibility of the United States government, because it was us who hired them, sent them there, and paid them. So obviously we were paying them to murder civilians. This is what you've posted.

Have fun with that.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 8:44 AM

Impressive. Most impressive.

First, let me clear a fact, a change in position for me: Hamas is deliberately provoking Israel to attack it, and let's be fair, Kadima, and Ohlmert are falling for it. Again, govt. is not country.

Hamas is a bad govt. and doesn't care if their own people die. Kadima is a bad govt. It doesn't care how it looks internationally. Currently, outside of the US, Israel is hated. They had a lot of sympathy in Europe up until now.

So, it's a war in which both sides are wrong, and one side has 99% of the firepower, so the outcome is obvious.

Okay, that said, you people are being played.

John posted this deliberately to watch you go at it like siamese fighting fish. And you oblige.
I'm not the first person to post this, if you scan the threads, you'll see that Frem said it two days ago.

I particularly love this exchange:

Quote:

Quote:
RUE
Hamas is allowed to defend itself from Israeli aggression.

RIVERLOVE

It's only January 6th, but RUE has already secured the MOST USEFUL IDIOT OF THE YEAR award with that comment. Admit it, yer just a good ole' fashioned Jew Hater...right? Swappin e-mails with Mel Gibson much lately?

Okay taking sides here would be silly. Girls, can I be sexist for a moment and say meow?
To be fair, guys get into it to. But one can envision this on video.

I always assumed Rue was jewish. I don't know why. But it's probably more likely than that she's a Nazi, or an arab. Just counting the odds of the staff of pharmaceutical companies.

But I'm going to have to go with Frem on this one, I'm enjoying the comedy. Okay I fell for it, before he pointed it out. Check out the number of responses on this thread.

And River, Love, it's going to be a long year. I think you just topped Kathy.

I agree with most of what you post, but you must reflect that was a stunner of a post you just made. You should be able to take a step back and laugh at it yourself. Do take a step back. Forget for the moment that posts like this do as much for your own popularity as Israel's invasion of Gaza is doing for theirs, and marvel in its glory.

Oh, and BTW, yours cannot top the stupidest comment yet, since the now deleted post claiming that I, a descendent of holocaust survivors, was responsible for the holocaust, or would be responsible for the next one. That was dumber.

We all post dumb things.

I like Kathy, and I generally disagree with what she posts, but her statment is legit. Hamas has that right. I would concur that this isn't the only thing going on. Or that Hamas gives a damn. I mean, remember, Hamas isn't located in Gaza themselves, not Hamas leadership, they're off in Ramallah, being not attacked.

This is certainly not even the dumbest thing posted by Kathy, but it's the dumbest thing posted by River. I confess to posting some dumb things, my dumbest was on the second amendment.

But I've nominated a couple of things for the dumbest post already that were just dumb. Not politically naive or wrong, but dumb. Hero still holds the all time record.

But before you two embarass each other any further, realize why you're here. And then go check out some of the other threads, a lot of discussion about the hate here.

Then realize that John posted this, no offense John, well done, by all means, but your little experiment in how much hostility you can generate has proven your point.

That point, as he posted in an earlier thread, for those who missed it, is that people are sheep. And observe.

But now it has run its course, and I'm going to put an end to this, by simply exposing to anyone who reads this why this thread was started.

We came to this site to unite, across political lines. I, for one, politically side with River, but not on this issue, because she's just off the deep end. Kathy is the opposition, who I like, who has posted some more absurd things on this very thread, has posted some quite insightful ones elsewhere.

In scanning, I notice people are talking about me. I take it back, JewelStaiteFan has just posted something dumber. But he? can be relied on to do that. I have to go laugh at some people.

I recommend that you two abandon this sinking ship, kiss and make up, and stroll over to the other non-violent threads, before you both turn into reavers.

Jes a lil personal advice from me to you.

Oh, and btw, I know John, I'm not guessing that he created this thread to manipulate you guys. It started as a strategy to get maximum exposure but now I think Frem is right, it's just a game to watch the fireworks.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 8:48 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Hamas is allowed to defend itself from Israeli aggression.

It's only January 6th, but RUE has already secured the MOST USEFUL IDIOT OF THE YEAR award with that comment. Admit it, yer just a good ole' fashioned Jew Hater...right? Swappin e-mails with Mel Gibson much lately?

This was simply unnecessary and uncalled for - another remark that seems out of character... people switchin' up usernames?

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 9:00 AM

RIVERLOVE

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:

This was simply unnecessary and uncalled for - another remark that seems out of character... people switchin' up usernames?

I didn't know there was a critic in here now. Anyhow, your little comment is not appreciated, in case you care.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 9:00 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"I always assumed Rue was jewish."

Child of well-educated Polish immigrants (one of whom survived Russian labor camps), raised Roman Catholic though at best agnostic for many decades, working-class background.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 9:01 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Oh, and btw, I know John, I'm not guessing that he created this thread to manipulate you guys. It started as a strategy to get maximum exposure but now I think Frem is right, it's just a game to watch the fireworks.

People still read his posts?

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 9:07 AM

Just out of interest, are all these posts coming from American users of the site? I can't speak for public opinion across the pond, being from Glasgow, but over here the general support is firmly in the Palestinian camp, perhaps for historical reasons and parallels many West-Coast Scots may draw with Palestine and their own background.

There was one post I seen from Dreamtrove I think it was, and I was astounded by the scale of it's stupidity. I can't quote exactly but it was something along the lines of "The main problem is Palestinians won't surrender, they could always go and seek refuge somewhere else, set up a colony elsewhere etc etc etc". I hope to God you where displaying a level of sarcasm I just can't comprehend, or else you're just an idiot.

ISRAEL TOOK PALESTINIAN LAND!!!!!

If anyone should downsize their borders it should be Israel, they've been conducting an illegal occupation for almost 60 years. What the Israeli government done under the cover of the 1948 war was nothing short of ethnic cleansing. In the "Nakba", the 'catastrophe', almost a million people were forced out of their homes at gunpoint, civilians were massacred by the Hagana and other paramilitary organisations, and Palestinian villages were deliberately destroyed. This campaign had been taking place for two years before the '48 War, and continued into the fifties. This is the brreding place for Palestinian militantism. (spelling?)

Whilst I will not say that Hamas are right to attack settlements, I feel secrectly Israel would have been only too happy to recommence hostilities. As for Hamas support - Put yourself in the position of an ordinary, educated Palestinian young man; an organisation you have no ties with fires crude, often home-made rockets into an occupying neighbour, casualties rarely reaching double figures. Your neighbours then use their far superior military might to bomb your only functioning power station, sabotage your water supply thus further hamstringing your medical and humanitarian capabilities, already at breaking point due to Israeli sanctions. Imagine watching water supplies, hospitals and roads etc that Hamas have paid for and built being obliterated.....

How would you react?

For every Hamas leader Israel claims to kill, there is usually 15 civilians dead as well, and will result in 50 more young men flocking to their cause.

Ps as I type this there is a news report stating that an Israeli rocket has killed 30 civilians when it, on purpose, was fired into a UN-school. Israel claims it was fired upon from the school. Yeah, the UN are trying to bomb Israel now. Gits

Pps i would like to point out that none of my arguements or feelings are based on racial or religious matters. I'm a white, working-class Catholic in Glasgow, so i'm not a "Hamas-lover", or a "Jew-hater".

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 9:42 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Geezer - the question is who broke the truce. The answer was that it was Israel. What happened before the truce was in place, or after Israel broke it is not the issue.

Hamas is allowed to defend itself from Israeli aggression.

There's enough disinformation and conflicting stories about to make any assumption on who first broke the latest truce, or any of the previous ones, a crapshoot. Both sides are always keyed up to initiate, or respond to, a provication.

My only issue is to show that, despite your repeated claims that they did not, Hamas did fire rockets into Israel early in the present conflict. I think I've done that.

If Hamas wants to defend itself, as you say they are allowed to do, perhaps shooting rockets at the IDF, rather than at completely non-military targets, would be more fruitful. It would also give them the moral high ground, as they wouldn't be killing civilians, like the Israeli forces are.

You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that I'm trying to defend or justify Israel's actions. Nothing cold be further from the truth. I figure they're screwing the pooch big time in relation to Gaza and the Palestinians in general, and have been doing so for quite some time. I just think that Hamas shares the blame for the current circumstances, since they (like the Israeli government) require an aggressive posture, backed by frequent armed conflict and a steady supply of martyrs, to stay in power. The folk of Gaza, when given a choice between the hardline Hamas and a more conciliatory Fatah, chose the hardliners, just as the folk of Israel chose a hardline government. Their mistake, in my opinion.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 10:04 AM

Pizmo

Just count the posts on this thread.

Badger

Grow up. Now I'm getting attacked for being a zionist and for being a nazi?

All I did was oppose this war.

Yes, Israel took palestine. Now they have it. And lots of guns. If someone took your house and filled it with guys with guns, would you stay?

But wait...

Idiocy continues.

Watch, and enjoy. Grab a beer. That's what PN is doing. good show old man.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 10:22 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Pizmo

Just count the posts on this thread.

More due to the volatile subject and less to do with PN's posting or *unique* spin on it. Whatzit could have generated as large a post count. If PN was popping in stirring the pot I might agree.
I do acknowledge that his posts are primarily to generate web traffic to his site and it's all about revenue - and I'd guess his approach is pretty successful. I tip my hat to him for that.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 11:08 AM

dreamtrove - at what point did i attack you for a being a Zionist or a Nazi? Although i feel it it would be tricky to be both at the same time....

As for whether people should leave their homes when they're outgunned and outnumbered, ever heard of a thing called principal? Why should an indigeneous group of people leave their land because someone else covets it. Sure your not British? You certainly have the 17th century colonialist attitude. Mind you, if you're American i suppose your used to throwing the natives off their land!!!!! Joke btw, don't every1 go radge at me!

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 11:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Of course, finn. Israel is warm and fuzzy. They could never be responsible for any action that would put Palestinians in danger.

Perhaps you’re dumb enough to believe that. But I’m not.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Let's put your situational ethics to the test. If, say, an American soldier tortures, beats, shocks, and possibly kills an Iraqi prisoner in Abu Ghraib, is that HIS doing, or the doing of the United States, since he's there on our orders, doing our dirty work?

Both.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
According to your own logic, and what you've posted here, the "bad apple" isn't responsible; his government is, because it (a) should have known better, and (b) should have been able to control its people.

That’s not my logic. That’s your strawman. My logic does not absolve the “bad apple,” as it were, at all, but it also doesn’t absolve the government, whose job it is to maintain security. And when it comes down to it, Hamas has often attacked Israel. Much of Hamas is composed of plain clothed extremists. And finally, the murder and hatred of Jews is one of the tenants that Hamas stands for.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 11:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by badgersveryfinehat:
As for whether people should leave their homes when they're outgunned and outnumbered, ever heard of a thing called principal? Why should an indigeneous group of people leave their land because someone else covets it. Sure your not British? You certainly have the 17th century colonialist attitude. Mind you, if you're American i suppose your used to throwing the natives off their land!!!!! Joke btw, don't every1 go radge at me!

Yeah, I wouldn’t limit that to Americans. After all, it was the British who did a lot of that in the Americas. Afterward you did it to the native Australians, and then the Indians, and the Africans. And long before that, you did it to the Scots and the Irish, oh and the Welsh (a native people whose name is derived from a derogatory English word). The Irish, I might add, you nearly exterminated. Fortunately, you didn’t get all of us. So that I can be here to tell you off!

People, all over, have a long history of subjugating someone or another. Even in the Americas, Native American tribes would fight and take each others territory all the time. It has left a complex tapestry of hatreds and suspiciously defended borders, which we must now figure out what to do with.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 12:07 PM

"Yeah, I wouldn’t limit that to Americans. After all, it was the British who did a lot of that in the Americas. Afterward you did it to the native Australians, and then the Indians, and the Africans. And long before that, you did it to the Scots and the Irish, oh and the Welsh (a native people whose name is derived from a derogatory English word). The Irish, I might add, you nearly exterminated. Fortunately, you didn’t get all of us. So that I can be here to tell you off! "

Ha ha i consider myself suitably chastised!! Although a bit less of the "you" comments,
I'm a Scot of Irish descent on both sides, we suffered more than most as you said. At least we can agree about those bloody English tho...lol

Still, just cause people have been nicking land from each for years doesn't make it right. Thats one of the main reasons for the groundswell of public support for Palestine in Glasgow, a lot of people can draw parallels with England occupying Ireland and forcing hundreds of thousands out the country, either as slaves or refugees. The ones left behind just got robbed, murdered and generally treated like scum, so a lot of us sympathise with Palestine.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 12:11 PM

ps what's the derogatory word that we derive Welsh from? I've never heard anything about that

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 12:11 PM

Quote:
Geezer originally wrote:

You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that I'm trying to defend or justify Israel's actions. Nothing cold be further from the truth. I figure they're screwing the pooch big time in relation to Gaza and the Palestinians in general, and have been doing so for quite some time. I just think that Hamas shares the blame for the current circumstances, since they (like the Israeli government) require an aggressive posture, backed by frequent armed conflict and a steady supply of martyrs, to stay in power. The folk of Gaza, when given a choice between the hardline Hamas and a more conciliatory Fatah, chose the hardliners, just as the folk of Israel chose a hardline government. Their mistake, in my opinion.

Geezer, on this point, at least, I think we're in complete agreement. I can say that Israel screwed up, and not be a "jew-hater" - and I can also say that the Palestinians have the basis of a legitimate gripe, and not think "all Palestinians are fuzzy". There have been massive muck-ups galore on both sides, and it's pretty much always going to be the innocent on either side (women and children who have not part in this fight) who pay the highest price.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 12:15 PM

Quote:
More due to the volatile subject and less to do with PN's posting or *unique* spin on it. Whatzit could have generated as large a post count. If PN was popping in stirring the pot I might agree.
I do acknowledge that his posts are primarily to generate web traffic to his site and it's all about revenue - and I'd guess his approach is pretty successful. I tip my hat to him for that.

Yes, but it's the clever construction of his kindling that gets it started. Whozit does not have kindling. He posts a link and an immature remark, and nothing happens. John would've stepped in to stir things up if it was required, but it didn't need to, the monster had grown a life of it's own.

Badger,

Quote:
dreamtrove - at what point did i attack you for a being a Zionist or a Nazi? Although i feel it it would be tricky to be both at the same time....

No, you were just insulting me for being zionist, directly after other people were assaulting me for being a nazi.

I'm a tomato farmer from rural NY, with a 5th grade education, if you can count skipping two of those years. Admittedly, I get a kick out of how some people here will argue with me, and even lose, it's like a round of are you smarter than a fifth grader, I have to assume, since I have no TV. Someone has my firfly DVDs atm. Otherwise, I'd watch them, though this firefight is entertaining.

I'm a Taoist, and so I oppose conflict. I'm not against self defense, just suicide, and genocide. I think that both Ohlmert and Hamas are immensely megalomaniacal and not very bright, and looking passed the tragedy of the whole situation, it's impressive how people will take sides.

I mean, it's take your pick really. If you were to look at Stalin vs. Hitler, and listen to people take sides, it would be hysterical if it weren't so sad. Since I can't do anything about the tragedy here, on either side, I mostly am resorting to laughing at the defenders. But I seem to have gotten caught in the crossfire where I get attacked by both sides (something which literally happened to a friend of mine in Iraq recently.)

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 12:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Of course, finn. Israel is warm and fuzzy. They could never be responsible for any action that would put Palestinians in danger.
Perhaps you’re dumb enough to believe that. But I’m not.

No? You sure? Because that's exactly what you posted about the Palestinians earlier. Okay, maybe you're not that dumb, but certainly you are dumb enough to not know the difference between "tenants" and "tenets". Or between "then" and "than". You're domonstrably that dumb, even when continually corrected. Some people just can't learn, apparently...

Quote:
And finally, the murder and hatred of Jews is one of the tenants that Hamas stands for.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 12:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by badgersveryfinehat:
Still, just cause people have been nicking land from each for years doesn't make it right. Thats one of the main reasons for the groundswell of public support for Palestine in Glasgow, a lot of people can draw parallels with England occupying Ireland and forcing hundreds of thousands out the country, either as slaves or refugees. The ones left behind just got robbed, murdered and generally treated like scum, so a lot of us sympathise with Palestine.

Well I think, to a large degree, the question of who is right and who is wrong is moot. And when it comes to Israel, the support that is given to one side or the other, is often far too emotional and less rational.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 12:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Of course, finn. Israel is warm and fuzzy. They could never be responsible for any action that would put Palestinians in danger.
Perhaps you’re dumb enough to believe that. But I’m not.

No? You sure? Because that's exactly what you posted about the Palestinians earlier.

No. I haven’t said anything about Palestinians in this whole debate.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Okay, maybe you're not that dumb, but certainly you are dumb enough to not know the difference between "tenants" and "tenets". Or between "then" and "than". You're domonstrably that dumb, even when continually corrected. Some people just can't learn, apparently...

Maybe. Maybe I just don’t consider you important enuf to use correct spelling.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 12:31 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Thats one of the main reasons for the groundswell of public support for Palestine in Glasgow, a lot of people can draw parallels with England occupying Ireland...

The city is also an historic hotbed for socialism...

Heads should roll

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 12:47 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"... a 250m tunnel going into israel, designed to capture israeli soldiers ..."

That is an assumption put forth by Israel as justification for their actions, not a fact.

B]

It might be a fact, and probably is a fact.

I'm interested in how you are so sure that it's an israeli fabrication. Does it not sound like something Hamas would do? Have they denied it?

Heads should roll

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 1:03 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Geezer originally wrote:

You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that I'm trying to defend or justify Israel's actions. Nothing cold be further from the truth. I figure they're screwing the pooch big time in relation to Gaza and the Palestinians in general, and have been doing so for quite some time. I just think that Hamas shares the blame for the current circumstances, since they (like the Israeli government) require an aggressive posture, backed by frequent armed conflict and a steady supply of martyrs, to stay in power. The folk of Gaza, when given a choice between the hardline Hamas and a more conciliatory Fatah, chose the hardliners, just as the folk of Israel chose a hardline government. Their mistake, in my opinion.

Geezer, on this point, at least, I think we're in complete agreement. I can say that Israel screwed up, and not be a "jew-hater" - and I can also say that the Palestinians have the basis of a legitimate gripe, and not think "all Palestinians are fuzzy". There have been massive muck-ups galore on both sides, and it's pretty much always going to be the innocent on either side (women and children who have not part in this fight) who pay the highest price.

Mike

I guess when it comes to War, defending the actions of one side over the other does somehow imply you'd rather see the other side dead. I suppose being neutral could mean you want both sides dead, nobody to die, or you just don't care.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 1:06 PM

dreamtrove, at no point in my post did I even mention the word Zionist so how i managed to insult you for being one i cannot fathom. Altho i feel your pain, my firefly dvd's aren't working, some fiend scratched them. Although i've just been told Serenity is on itv4 woohoo!!!!!

KPO, although I accept your point about Socialist leanings in Glasgow, i don't automatically link it with the opposition to Israel's stance, as Glasgow has largley shaken off the "Red Clydesiders" image in recent years. Recently in my electoral ward Labour lost the parliament seat for the first time since its founding. However the point i'm trying to make is that a lot of support is due to humanitarian issues, not politics, altho it probly has had an influence.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 2:10 PM

Quote:

I guess when it comes to War, defending the actions of one side over the other does somehow imply you'd rather see the other side dead. I suppose being neutral could mean you want both sides dead, nobody to die, or you just don't care.

I wouldn't say that defending or understanding the actions of one side automatically assumes that you want the other side dead. I can *understand* why the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, and can even defend why they thought it was a good idea at the time (they were woefully mistaken, but their leadership did think it was a good idea, and that it would (a) cripple the US in the Pacific, (b) give Japan time to take over most of the Pacific and use it as a buffer zone and source of materiel and mineral wealth for their empire, and (c) even though they knew full well they'd have to deal with the US over the attack, they thought they'd be able to sue for favorable terms to stave off a war they thought the US was inadequately prepared to fight. They were dead wrong, but that was their thinking, and it made sense at the time, at least to them), but that in no way whatsoever should be construed as my thinking they should have won the war, or that we should all have died.

Your argument is rather too simplistic.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 2:33 PM

I'm going to let the real king of the jews take it home.

In my experience, this is the majority jewish opinion. Stewart's, not Cooper's.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 2:59 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"It might be a fact, and probably is a fact."
Because you say so ? Because you think so ? Those are not enough.

"I'm interested in how you are so sure that it's an israeli fabrication. Does it not sound like something Hamas would do?"
No.

"Have they denied it?"
Yes.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 3:46 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Taken from a longer editorial.

It is irrational for the Israeli leaders to imagine that the Palestinians will understand this particular point of view--will understand why Jews might find it appropriate, let us say, to retaliate for the death of one Jew by killing a hundred Palestinians. If a Palestinian killed a hundred Jews to retaliate for the killing of one Palestinian--for that matter, if a Thai killed a hundred Cambodians to retaliate for the killing of one Thai--which, from the point of view of the Israeli leaders, would of course be unjust, that would be racist, as if one Palestinian or one Thai were worth a hundred Israelis or a hundred Cambodians. But if a Jew does it, it's not unjust and it's not racist, because it's part of an eternal struggle in which the Jews have lost and lost and lost--they've already lost more people than there are Palestinians. Well, it's not surprising that certain Jews would feel this way, but no Palestinian will ever share that feeling or be willing to accept it. What the Palestinians see is an implacable and heartless enemy, one that considers itself un-bound by any rules or principles, an enemy that can't be reasoned with but can only be feared, hated and, if possible, killed.

As poor and oppressed people around the world are very well aware of the events in the occupied territories, and as they strongly identify with the Palestinian struggle and point of view, the future of the Jews looks increasingly dim.

Consequently it is disgraceful and vile and no favor to the Jews for American politicians--for narrow, short-term political advantage, for narrow, short-term global-strategic reasons and, yes, also in expiation of the residual guilt they feel over what happened to the Jews in the past--to pander to the irrationality of the most irrational Jews.

Actions based on irrational premises inevitably fail in their purposes--they fail, and if the premises don't change, then the actions are inevitably repeated, in forms which are more and more grotesque. It is unbearable to think that the new American administration would begin with more American dollars being poured into what is unjustifiable. It is also unbearable to think that among the first words we would hear from our new, clearly rational president would be preposterous sentences trying to persuade us that Israeli policies which seem to be appalling are actually quite normal and acceptable. Certainly nothing our new president could do would be of greater value to the world--and greater value to the Jews--than to abruptly end the sickeningly patronizing habit of supporting an irrationality which was born in tragedy and will end in more tragedy.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 4:29 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Taken from a longer editorial.

As always, cites would be nice.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 11:42 PM

geezer: use the google
The Nation
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090112/shawn
I haven't even read the article. I've read enough opinion on this. It's like reading about the meaning of the election. It's a war, created by an imbalance of power. It's really more Nietzschian than anything else.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 4:57 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

NYTimes:

"Israel Halts Attack Briefly to Allow Aid Into Gaza — Under international pressure to ease its 12-day bombardment of the Gaza Strip, Israel briefly suspended its fighting on Wednesday and agreed to do so for three hours each day to permit humanitarian relief goods to reach the beleaguered population.

It was not immediately clear whether the militant Hamas movement, which governs Gaza, had also agreed to the plan, although senior Hamas officials were quoted as saying that it would not fire any rockets while Israel suspended its bombing."

That last bit:
"... senior Hamas officials were quoted as saying that it would not fire any rockets..." seems to confirm they were firing rockets at some point, and not some other militant group that they had no control over.

My own personal prejudice... both side's behaviour is sickening and frustrating, but I would never side with anyone that uses their people as bombs. I expect the next post to say something like, "so you only favor bomb bombs?" There are always other avenues than strapping bombs to teenagers - I will never get around that.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 7:02 AM

Nah, the next post is going to say

"If they can agree to stop shooting at each other for a couple hours a day, why can't they just agree to stop shooting at each other?"

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 7:44 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
There are always other avenues than strapping bombs to teenagers

Like WHAT?!

Not shooting them ?
Doesn't work, not only will they shell whole neighborhoods if someone so much as lights a firecracker, you've got those damn land stealing settlers picking shit, and when the Palestinians fight back against THEM, the freakin Izzies go berserk and shell em over that too.

Rely on the international community ?
Yeah right, as if they don't have their heads firmly up Israels ass kissing away because of their well-parlayed perpetual victim status.

Run the blockades ?
You see where that got Cynthia McKinney, right ?

Shoot back ?
And take massive civvie casualties, a losing proposition at best.

AND no one else has been willing to address the plain and simple FACT that Israel has a long history of false-flag provocations and attacks which is not shared by their opponents, which they have often used to "justify" their racist and genocidal hatred of all who are not them.

People do not suicide bomb because of ideals, zealotry or any of the bullshit you've been fed by people who are in fact paid to tell you believable lies.

People do that shit because they got nothing LEFT, no family, no work, no food, no money, health issues, and NO HOPE OF THAT CHANGING, ever.

And so they choose to exit this world in a manner of their choice, with a final blow against the people they feel put them in that situation, which is all the damn sadder cause most of the time the only people they wind up killing are the other sides joe average who more than likely hate that shit as much as the bomber did, and are just as powerless to stop it.

It's fuckin idiotic - but if you wanna PRETEND they got any kind of choice other than fight a losing battle or roll over and die quietly so we're not offended by them harming the favored sons of god, then let's hear what alternatives they really have, right ?

Comes a time when playin nice buys ya NOTHIN.
Back in 1939, Poland tried to play nice with Germany, see what it got em, right ?
Back in 1939, Finland did NOT play nice, despite everyone in the international community thinking it was a hopeless lost cause, and on paper it damn sure looked that way, but that wasn't how it played out, yes ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_war

Of course, no guarantees that'll work neither, the Catalonians fought tooth and claw and quite bravely, while even our own Gov was backing Franco cause contrary to revisionist history, most of the ruling class here thought Fascism was the greatest thing since sliced bread at the time, being constantly under threat from Anarchists and Unionists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_Catalonia

But seriously, cut the bullshit - what choice do they have?
Fight and die, or roll over quietly and die, that's about it, the Izzies don't want peace, they want that LAND, and remember what I said about the only way you take land from someone else in the middle east.

You ask me, they ain't fightin dirty ENOUGH.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 8:19 AM

Quote:

People do not suicide bomb because of ideals, zealotry or any of the bullshit you've been fed by people who are in fact paid to tell you believable lies.

People do that shit because they got nothing LEFT, no family, no work, no food, no money, health issues, and NO HOPE OF THAT CHANGING, ever.

Frem, I've been saying the same thing for years. I've been trying to explain to people that you'll have a hard time stopping this kind of behavior until you understand how things got so fucked up that this kind of behavior was accepted. For my trouble and calm words, I was labelled a traitor and un-American, and told that I should go and join my fellow terrorists. So much for understanding...

You're dealing with people like Finn here, who actually BELIEVE that whole bullshit line about "love it or leave it" and who think that "love" equals blindly following leaders and never asking questions, and above all, NEVER trying to understand a viewpoint that opposes your own. You'll note that just yesterday he indicated that Hamas would love to have me as a member, since I'm so in love with them and all their warm fuzziness. This, because I implied that they might, just MIGHT, have the basis of a legitimate gripe against Israel.

For him and folks like him, fuck 'em. They ain't gonna listen, no how, no way, so it's wasted breath.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 8:22 AM

Quote:
But seriously, cut the bullshit - what choice do they have?
Fight and die, or roll over quietly and die, that's about it...

Yup, there comes a time when the words of Pancho Villa ring true...

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees."

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 8:22 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
But seriously, cut the bullshit - what choice do they have?
Fight and die, or roll over quietly and die, that's about it, the Izzies don't want peace, they want that LAND, and remember what I said about the only way you take land from someone else in the middle east.

You ask me, they ain't fightin dirty ENOUGH.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

Short answer: f*ck if I know. I'm just some schmoe typing on a fan site. To play along though..."More violence?" Not likely. That will just bring down even more disproportionate violence - going out in a blaze of glory is great for the other guy. The Patton quote about that still works.

Suicide bombing does not work. Your quote says it all - what they've tried has not worked and they have not learned from it.

On top of that it has to be the most perverse way possible for a government - that risks little - has of treating it's own people. "We are against Israel killing our people, so we will kill our own people."

Shooting little rockets only woke them up. They have tried violence - it does not work.

"What next" I would start with the diplomacy of public shame against Israel, which actually seems to be starting.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 8:34 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

When your choices are fight and die, or roll over and die, which would you chose ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 8:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
But seriously, cut the bullshit - what choice do they have?
Fight and die, or roll over quietly and die, that's about it, the Izzies don't want peace, they want that LAND, and remember what I said about the only way you take land from someone else in the middle east.

You ask me, they ain't fightin dirty ENOUGH.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

Short answer: f*ck if I know. I'm just some schmoe typing on a fan site. To play along though..."More violence?" Not likely. That will just bring down even more disproportionate violence - going out in a blaze of glory is great for the other guy. The Patton quote about that still works.

Suicide bombing does not work. Your quote says it all - what they've tried has not worked and they have not learned from it.

On top of that it has to be the most perverse way possible for a government - that risks little - has of treating it's own people. "We are against Israel killing our people, so we will kill our own people."

Shooting little rockets only woke them up. They have tried violence - it does not work.

"What next" I would start with the diplomacy of public shame against Israel, which actually seems to be starting.

Pizmo:

Some good points there. We may be generating the nugget of an idea in all this discourse and debate. "What they've tried has not worked and they haven't learned from it" applies equally to both sides. As for "what next?", I'm with ya - fucked if I know. We have a pretty clear history of what DOESN'T work, and really no idea what does. My idea of civil disobedience of the utterly non-violent variety still hasn't been tried there, and historically it's been very effective. Amass the Palestinians at the checkpoints, have them show clearly and unequivocally that they are unarmed, and then leave it up to Israel to make the next move. Shoot into the crowd? Round them up? Mow 'em down? Or leave them be? What you do next shows your true colors and your real agenda to the world. If you do nothing, the Palestinians have won a moral victory. If you do anything against them, you pretty much hand them the PR victory in the eyes of the world.

You can fight and die, you can roll over and die, or you can just stand there and do nothing, refusing to fight and refusing to die, and the other side almost automatically looks like the bad guy.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 9:39 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
When your choices are fight and die, or roll over and die, which would you chose ?

I don't ever choose to die. Just because you can't think of another choice doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means you don't know.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 9:40 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Some good points there. We may be generating the nugget of an idea in all this discourse and debate. "What they've tried has not worked and they haven't learned from it" applies equally to both sides. As for "what next?", I'm with ya - fucked if I know. We have a pretty clear history of what DOESN'T work, and really no idea what does. My idea of civil disobedience of the utterly non-violent variety still hasn't been tried there, and historically it's been very effective. Amass the Palestinians at the checkpoints, have them show clearly and unequivocally that they are unarmed, and then leave it up to Israel to make the next move. Shoot into the crowd? Round them up? Mow 'em down? Or leave them be? What you do next shows your true colors and your real agenda to the world. If you do nothing, the Palestinians have won a moral victory. If you do anything against them, you pretty much hand them the PR victory in the eyes of the world.

You can fight and die, you can roll over and die, or you can just stand there and do nothing, refusing to fight and refusing to die, and the other side almost automatically looks like the bad guy.

Mike

I was trying to remember who said that - that's a great idea. And invite every news source on the planet to cover it. So Israel has banned coverage in Gaza, word still gets out. Like you said, you start making them look like the villains.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 9:59 AM

I thought I thought of it first. Or stole it from Ghandhi first, at least. Might have been Bill Hicks, though - the more I think about it, it sounds like the kind of plan he'd have loved.

Like I told Finn, it ain't my fight... still, part of me really wants to go over there and organize just such a demonstration, just to see the look on the Israelis' faces - and to see the look on the Palestinians' faces, when not firing a single shot nets them a victory. I doubt I'd be well-received by either side, though, me being an athiest, and thus an infidel in both religions!

ETA: Yes, media coverage is the key. You HAVE to have tons of news coverage and dozens of news outlets and cameras around at all times, or you definitely, absolutely will be killed the moment the cameras are off.

It's a fight and a cause that you need to be 100% willing to lay down your life for, because you're probably going to die trying it. Still, if you're Palestinian, you're probably going to die soon anyway, so what's to lose?

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 11:53 AM

Quote:

Quote:
There are always other avenues than strapping bombs to teenagers

Like WHAT?!

I think they should they should try Palestinian Han'ah M'Ontanna. Good islamic girl by day

Rock star by night

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Thursday, January 29, 2009 10:21 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

http://reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUKLS652339

(Reuters) - Israeli aircraft struck at tunnels used for smuggling goods and weapons on the border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt on Wednesday, residents of the Gaza town of Rafah and Hamas security officials said.

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Thursday, January 29, 2009 10:57 AM