Lesson learned: First you find a ghetto ... by rue

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Warsaw

Israel

Gaza

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 7:02 AM

RIVERLOVE

Too bad the Jews who rose up to fight the Nazis during the Ghetto Uprising didn't have Iran to supply them with missiles, rockets, machine guns, RPGs, IEDs, ammunition and cash. Might have made their brave and historic effort a bit more successful.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 7:24 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/07/world/middleeast/07mideast.html?hp

Israeli Strike Reportedly Hits Refugees at School in Gaza

Israel’s military ... shells had hit a United Nations school where Palestinians were sheltering, killing scores.

The Israeli media said the death toll was at least 30, and even as high as 40, although this could not be immediately confirmed. .. Reuters reported that two tank shells exploded outside the school, spraying shrapnel inside and outside the building where hundreds of Palestinians had sought refuge from the fighting. It cited medical sources at two hospitals, who said the dead were either people taking shelter in the school or local residents.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 7:32 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

bump

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 7:34 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

bump

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 7:44 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/07/world/middleeast/07mideast.html?hp

Israeli Strike Reportedly Hits Refugees at School in Gaza

Israel’s military ... shells had hit a United Nations school where Palestinians were sheltering, killing scores.

The Israeli media said the death toll was at least 30, and even as high as 40, although this could not be immediately confirmed. .. Reuters reported that two tank shells exploded outside the school, spraying shrapnel inside and outside the building where hundreds of Palestinians had sought refuge from the fighting. It cited medical sources at two hospitals, who said the dead were either people taking shelter in the school or local residents.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 8:04 AM

Quote:
RIVERLOVE
Too bad the Jews who rose up to fight the Nazis during the Ghetto Uprising didn't have Iran to supply them with missiles, rockets, machine guns, RPGs, IEDs, ammunition and cash. Might have made their brave and historic effort a bit more successful.

Quite right. And this is what our second amendment is intended for. Of coure, Iran was busy being invaded by both Russia and Britain, which is why it had to ask Germany for help (Germans asked them to change the name officially to Iran, for Aryan, from Persia. The name change lasted through the war, afterwords it was declared that both names were acceptable.)

The assistance should logically have come from those who were nearby: The Soviets, who were busy exterminating jews and ukrainians and polls themselves or places with jewish populations that were sympathetic, Britain or the US.

Of course FDR and Churchill were busy letting the kill off commence. Anyone who has played RISK knows that this is a workable military strategy. They were both very well aware that 6 million jews and 5 million christians, and a million pagans were being exterminated in camps, they just didn't care. Nor did they care about the depopulation of villages. What they cared about, was the mutual slaughtering of soldiers and exhausting of defensive weaponry, both of which they were in favor of.

Lots of jews elsewhere had cash. I think it was one of the reasons for killing them. Nazi gold. Now, of course, all that gold belongs to the Gnomes of Zurich, who still won't let their accounts be examined because they know full well that this is where the money is.

But Gaza's friends cannot supply them with enough to stop this slaughter. I think that they would do better to smuggle people out of Gaza. The problem is that no one wants Palestinians, just like in 1938, no one wanted jews.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 8:06 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Sooooo... Would that mean that Israel isn't able to keep its people in check and keep them from raining destruction upon innocent civilians and targeting innocent civilians?

Is this a justification for invading, taking over, and occupying Israel?

I'm just trying to clarify, because when it was a few Palestinians doing this type of thing, it was plenty justification enough to Israel to invade and occupy. Finn even stated categorically that Hamas needn't have anything to do with the rocket attacks; if they couldn't keep their people and their rockets under control, they should be invaded and taken over.

So when do we begin the invasion of Israel?

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 8:13 AM

Quote:

But Gaza's friends cannot supply them with enough to stop this slaughter. I think that they would do better to smuggle people out of Gaza. The problem is that no one wants Palestinians, just like in 1938, no one wanted jews.

That seems to be the consensus - no one will take them. Hell, if it were within my power, I'd give them a giant chunk of West Texas, along the Rio Grande in the Big Bend area.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 8:30 AM

RIVERLOVE

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
RIVERLOVE
Too bad the Jews who rose up to fight the Nazis during the Ghetto Uprising didn't have Iran to supply them with missiles, rockets, machine guns, RPGs, IEDs, ammunition and cash. Might have made their brave and historic effort a bit more successful.

Quite right. And this is what our second amendment is intended for. Of coure, Iran was busy being invaded by both Russia and Britain, which is why it had to ask Germany for help (Germans asked them to change the name officially to Iran, for Aryan, from Persia. The name change lasted through the war, afterwords it was declared that both names were acceptable.)

The assistance should logically have come from those who were nearby: The Soviets, who were busy exterminating jews and ukrainians and polls themselves or places with jewish populations that were sympathetic, Britain or the US.

Of course FDR and Churchill were busy letting the kill off commence. Anyone who has played RISK knows that this is a workable military strategy. They were both very well aware that 6 million jews and 5 million christians, and a million pagans were being exterminated in camps, they just didn't care. Nor did they care about the depopulation of villages. What they cared about, was the mutual slaughtering of soldiers and exhausting of defensive weaponry, both of which they were in favor of.

Lots of jews elsewhere had cash. I think it was one of the reasons for killing them. Nazi gold. Now, of course, all that gold belongs to the Gnomes of Zurich, who still won't let their accounts be examined because they know full well that this is where the money is.

But Gaza's friends cannot supply them with enough to stop this slaughter. I think that they would do better to smuggle people out of Gaza. The problem is that no one wants Palestinians, just like in 1938, no one wanted jews.

Good post, but some factual errors :

Getting the Jew's gold and cash was just a nice by-product for the Nazis. They would have carried out the same Holocaust without the diamonds and gold.

Russia in WWII didn't exterminate Jews. Initially, after Germany and Russia signed their Non-Agression Pact, Russia was taking Poles out of Eastern Poland and carting them off to Russia, where they worked as slave labor building the Trans Siberian Railroad. Germany took the Poles out of Western Poland and sent them to Extermination Camps and Concentration Camps. When Germany betrayed the Pact, they invaded Russia along the entire front, Leningrad and Stalingrad to the North, and Ukraine and Kiev to the South. The Russian Army simply retreated and left thousands of square miles vulnerable to the advancing German Army.
Right behind the German Army was the SS Einsatzgruppe, who were the mobile death squads. They rounded up all the Jews and slaughtered them, mostly in mass shootings into open pits and ravines, like Babi Yar.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 1:47 PM

Quote:
That seems to be the consensus - no one will take them. Hell, if it were within my power, I'd give them a giant chunk of West Texas, along the Rio Grande in the Big Bend area.

Mike, oh how I wish there was a consensus.

You're absolutely right. I'd give them crawford :)
But this is the very reason I'm here posting, and my jewish relatives are not.

My father's family was in banking and brewing, and there were a lot of marriages. Directly, his family were nobles, they dated back to the region from the very early gothic pre-christian era. Because of the circles they were in, there were a fair number of intermarriages with jews, and so a lot of jews in the extended family. All of them were moneyed, but when the Nazis came, they took them all.

Curiously, it wasn't judaism or money that sparked the attack, it came in 1934, and some were killed then, others held prisoner, and later moved to camps.

The issue was the war. My great grandparents were convinced that Germany would lose a second world war. The Nazis maintained that it was poor choices and organization of the Kaiser and his aristocrats, and that ordered execution of the Von Schlieffen plan would win the war.

Since my father's side worked in the German govt. they made their case convincingly, and were joined by likeminded people, who thought that the numerical logistics just wouldn't allow a victory. The USSR made it technically impossible to win. They were marginalized as being aristocratic, slavic sympathizers, and later as jewish sympathizers. Ultimately, they were all killed.

My father and his mother being not jewish were allowed to come here, but the US had a quota on jews, as did many places. A lot of his non-jewish relatives stayed to fight off Hitler, and were major financial backers who helped defeat him in the 1933 election, that ironically, today, many people think he actually won. He did not, he lost resoundingly to Hindenberg.

RIVERLOVE

Quote:
Good post, but some factual errors:

Possibly, but if I nitpick, it will be because I'm very sure. Even the most educated of texts can be wrong, see my earlier post where I said on apocrypha, if Webster disagrees with me, they're still wrong. I know the word, as do a lot of others.

In this case, I have a close friend who is a well known holocaust historian, and was head of history for the european union. As an amateur historian myself, I'm always pleased that he takes me seriously, and actually thinks I'm quite good, and made me his assistant. But I defer to him in these matters, certainly over most of recorded history, which usually has the flaw not only that it was written by the winners (the russians did win this war, we only defeated Japan) but also that history is often written by people who are non-objective and have ulterior motives. I seldom post speculations, but I'm still occasionally wrong, but suffice it to say, I'm as sure as I can be about this, and I have it on extremely good authority. That said:

Quote:
Getting the Jew's gold and cash was just a nice by-product for the Nazis. They would have carried out the same Holocaust without the diamonds and gold.

Maybe. They slaughtered my family jewish and non, and they most certainly took all the wealth. If they had an ulterior motive, it was political, not religious. The decision to kill the jews hadn't come yet.

The original plan was to remove the jews to Israel. This got interrupted by more greed, this time, part govt., part corporate, coming not only from Germany, but also the UK, US and Switzerland. The model was then copied against non jews by the puppets in Hrvatska, but also by other axis powers, and the corporations, including european and american ones, to include non-jews or blur the definition of jew, because they were running out of workers.

Slave labor is actual a more intense evil than racism itself. The racism compelled them to remove the jews, who the Nazis blamed for the German loss in WWI (This is because jewish bankers loaned money to other european powers, after loaning money to Germans) True, if this hadn't happened, Germany might have one, but bankers are bankers, and in it for profit, and the amalgamation of all of this into an amorphous population of "jews" can only happen through the racism of a very warped mind.

But that alone supported the relocation program, which originally actually intended to relocate, as much as I hate nazis, I'll grant that the evidence supports this. But then, slave labor entered into it, and slavery has an avarice for human sacrifice which is insatiable.

The original list of jews to remove contained only 600,000 names, but when this was diverted to labor camps, it quickly proved not enough. More "jews" had to be found. There were lots of jews in eastern europe to round up, but even this became not enough, and other "enemies of the state" could be added, and by the end, it was basically "anyone who could work" and random poles were being rounded up.

Quote:
Russia in WWII didn't exterminate Jews.

Sorry, they did. I'm going further back. In the early years of the USSR, Stalin decided that the way to make a religion free state was to outlaw religion. This left him with three problems: Eastern Orthodox, largely in Ukraine, Islam, in central Asia, and Judaism. The extermination of Ukrainians was the most spectacular, but there were extensive anti-jewish purges in the 1920s. The move against Islam proved hopeless, and eventually he gave up. The reasons for this can be debated by historians, but probably the most simple is logistics. The muslims were scattered to the winds across a vast area, and were fairly numerous, not to mention, they were getting support from their middle eastern neighbors to the south. At any rate, it failed. Stalin's abandonment of genocide camps was actually very sudden in 1939. When the international community became aware of the German camps, the Soviets panicked. They saw themselves as being the next target of moral righteous indignation. They were running camps to exterminate ethnic polls at the time. All these details were speculated on, but withheld by Russia until the end of the cold war, when all the documents were released.

Quote:
Initially, after Germany and Russia signed their Non-Agression Pact, Russia was taking Poles out of Eastern Poland and carting them off to Russia, where they worked as slave labor building the Trans Siberian Railroad.

True, they also were killing them in occupied eastern Poland.

Quote:
Germany took the Poles out of Western Poland and sent them to Extermination Camps and Concentration Camps.

More the reverse. Auschwitz is in Poland. Germans were taking jews *to* poland for work-to-death. this is really what we're talking about more than direct slaughter, these were work to death camps, and they were usually owned by corporations. Interesting footnote: Auschwitz was owned by Silesian Steel. The firm in turn was owned by international banking concerns, one of which was Union Banking Corp, whose directors were Averell Harriman, (I grew up next door to his daughter), Prescott Bush, father of GHW Bush, and George Walker, an avid white supremacist for whom the current president is named. Ironically, nothing about the current Bush has ever struck me as racist. I suppose this is just one of many ways in which he is like Forrest Gump :)

Quote:
When Germany betrayed the Pact, they invaded Russia along the entire front, Leningrad and Stalingrad to the North, and Ukraine and Kiev to the South. The Russian Army simply retreated and left thousands of square miles vulnerable to the advancing German Army.
Right behind the German Army was the SS Einsatzgruppe, who were the mobile death squads. They rounded up all the Jews and slaughtered them, mostly in mass shootings into open pits and ravines, like Babi Yar.

Notoriously. Again, of course, not just jews. It was one of the human angles that lost the Axis the war. The clean sweep operations would depopulate entire towns, for the purpose of setting up shop there. The nazis trusted no one, and so killed everyone, and then would take over towns as bases. Often the jews for the first to flee to the USSR, which itself had been anti-semitic so recently, was now looking for a moral high ground over Germany. This fact finds itself in our current situation where Russia now has a vested interest in Israel, probably even more than the US.

The allies, by contrast, would conscribe everyone in a town which they took, and allot them tasks to support the allied armies. This bred some resentment initially, but ultimately, because of its inclusionary nature, won the allies more friends, so that by the time the US came into the European theater, it was relatively easy.

The thought that an enemy, should they win will exterminate your entire population is the best reason to fight I can think of.

Getting into holocaust discussions is always a minefield, because people are always looking for ways to slander your position. I would say the greatest historical inaccuracies of the holocaust are not the crimes against the jews, but the omissions of two major details: crimes against non-jews. 6 million jews died, 60 million people total. More if you expand the conflict to include preceding and succeeding conflicts with direct relation to the war (we tend to frame it by US/British and German/Japanese involvement, but add Russia, China, etc. you get the total toll up to 200 million or so.) The other is the lack of accountability. This is a "winners write the history books" issue. It was easy to blame the govt. of Germany for everything, letting Russian, Swiss, western and every eastern european nations and corporations off the hook. The German govt. was now dead. If you blame it on the dead guy, who in this case was incredibly guilty, you let the living accomplices go free, then you have a world of trouble. Some of this trouble surfaced in the breakup of Yugoslavia, where the issue had never been straightened out. Most of this was was a continuation of WWII, in a perpetual vendetta.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 2:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Sooooo... Would that mean that Israel isn't able to keep its people in check and keep them from raining destruction upon innocent civilians and targeting innocent civilians?

I think you will find that Israel, not only did the shelling, but admitted responsibility for it. Perhaps if Hamas were as honest, some sort of accord could be reached with them. However, Hamas is not, leaving only the military option.

Although Israeli officials have said that they were targeting mortar fire from within the school. Mortar fire that was likely coming from some of those “extremists” that you and rue, and evidently Hamas also, would like to ignore.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
So when do we begin the invasion of Israel?

Talk to Hamas. They’d love to have you.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 2:54 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Finn, I am really, really tired of your stupid strawman arguments.

No one has said Hamas never did anything wrong, least of all me. I invite you to find the quote, if you don't believe me. I thought I made it VERY clear in MANY posts I wasn't trying to go back to the dawn of time to assign the ultimate cause.

I restricted my comments to THIS truce, THIS breach, THIS conflict. In THIS instance Israel clearly broke the truce. Their self-defense claim is clearly not true.

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Is THAT short enough for you to read all the way through ?

Is THAT simple enough for you to comprehend ?

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 6:49 PM

Quote:
Talk to Hamas. They’d love to have you.

They probably would love to have me, but that's not my battle to fight. I have my own cause worth laying down my life for, and Hamas doesn't share it, nor does Israel.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 6:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Finn, I am really, really tired of your stupid strawman arguments.

There is no strawman. You spent much of the last thread arguing that rockets fired into Israel by supposed nameless “extremists” were unimportant, because according to you they were unaffiliated with Hamas. That was your argument. There is no strawman. Granted it was a dumb argument, but you made the point.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
No one has said Hamas never did anything wrong, least of all me. I invite you to find the quote, if you don't believe me. I thought I made it VERY clear in MANY posts I wasn't trying to go back to the dawn of time to assign the ultimate cause.

I restricted my comments to THIS truce, THIS breach, THIS conflict. In THIS instance Israel clearly broke the truce. Their self-defense claim is clearly not true.

Of course, it’s always THIS conflict where Hamas never does anything wrong. The only reason Israel “clearly” broke the truce is the way you interpret the timeline. Clearly if I start the timeline right after Hamas commits an egregious act of aggression and right before Israel retaliates, then I can accuse Israel of starting it.

The six-month truce between Hamas and Israel began in 24 June 2008, during which Hamas was required to end rocket attacks against Israel. On the SAME damn day as the truce munitions were fired into Israel from Gaza (constituting the FIRST BREACH of the truce). Two days later more munitions were fired at Israel from Gaza. The next day, and the next day, and two days later. Then on 2 July, 3 July, 7,8,10,12, 13,15, 25, 29,31 July. Then in August 19 Munitions were fired into Israel. In September, 5 munitions. In October, only one. Then in November on the 6, 12, 21, 22, 24, 26 a large number munitions were fired. More munitions were fired on 3 December and 6 December and 12 and 16, 17, 18, and the 19th. Then on 19 December 2008 Hamas spokesperson declared an end to the truce because according them Israel did not lift the blockade on Gaza. Boy is that joke. So according to you “Israel clearly broke the truce,” when on the 27 December after 6 months of continuous barrage they finally retaliated.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 8:32 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Stupid, stupid Finn

"The only reason Israel “clearly” broke the truce is the way you interpret the timeline."

The timeline that started at the start of the truce ? There is no way to misinterpret that. Israel broke the truce.

"On the SAME damn day as the truce munitions were fired into Israel from Gaza (constituting the FIRST BREACH of the truce). Two days later more munitions were fired at Israel from Gaza. The next day, and the next day, and two days later. Then on 2 July, 3 July, 7,8,10,12, 13,15, 25, 29,31 July. Then in August 19 Munitions were fired into Israel. In September, 5 munitions. In October, only one. Then in November on the 6, 12, 21, 22, 24, 26 a large number munitions were fired."

But they were not fired by Hamas. Even Israel knew that and didn't respond militarily.

In THIS intance, ISRAEL BROKE THE TRUCE.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 9:47 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
In THIS intance, ISRAEL BROKE THE TRUCE.

Exactly. A ceasefire is when Isreal stops firing. Firing at Isreal is still ok.

H

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 10:12 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Hamas signed the cease-fire and didn't fire on Israel.

Nuff said.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 10:17 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Oh, for heaven's sake Rue!

Israel= good guys

Their minds are made up. Don't confuse 'em with the facts!

Sheesh!!!!!!

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 1:21 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
But they were not fired by Hamas. Even Israel knew that and didn't respond militarily.

In THIS intance, ISRAEL BROKE THE TRUCE.

One of the terms of the truce was that "Hamas guarantees that all Palestinian factions abide by the prohibition on the use of violence against Israel."

http://middleeast.about.com/od/israelandpalestine/a/me080618a.htm

So Hamas, as the elected government, was responsible for preventing all factions, not just Hamas fighters, from firing rockets. Finn's chronology of rockets fired after the date of the truce shows that they did not, or could not, do so. Technically, this would have given Israel a free shot any time over the last six months, as Hamas was not living up to the conditions of the treaty and Israel was being attacked.

The article cited above makes it clear that both sides expected the truce to be short-lived at best. As I noted before, either side could have broken the treaty at any time to keep the pot boiling. You assert(without displaying proof) that it was Israel. I contend (based on the info above) that it could have just as easily been Hamas, but I don't think it really matters. The politicos on both sides are kept in power by the fears of their people, and they don't mind getting a few killed to maintain the fear. There ain't no good or bad guys. There ain't no right or wrong sides. Both are bad and both are wrong. Hamas headquarters in in Syria, so they aren't worried about getting hurt, and the Israeli government ain't going near the fighting.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 5:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Oh, for heaven's sake Rue!

Israel= good guys

Their minds are made up. Don't confuse 'em with the facts!

Sheesh!!!!!!

Actually, Signym, if you read rue’s post, you will see quite clearly that Hamas is blameless. According to rue, they are completely unaccountable for what takes place within their borders. That would make them the good guys; after all they evidently can do no wrong – so long as they don’t admit it.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 5:25 PM

Quote:
Actually, Signym, if you read rue’s post, you will see quite clearly that Hamas is blameless. According to rue, they are completely unaccountable for what takes place within their borders. That would make them the good guys; after all they evidently can do no wrong – so long as they don’t admit it.

Hamas is the Bush administration?!

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 6:18 PM

Quote:
Hamas is the Bush administration?!

Mike, you've hit it!

Think:
Both have condemned Ohlmert for this attack
Both favor a truce
Both are closely allied to the Saudi Royal family
Both have heavy backing from religious fundamentalists
Both are not capable of making allies or rational military decisions.

If Israel only knew this, they would shower Gaza with pretzels!

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 6:54 PM

Quote:
If Israel only knew this, they would shower Gaza with pretzels!

If only...

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 9:21 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Stupid, stupid Finn

"Actually, Signym, if you read rue’s post, you will see quite clearly that Hamas is blameless. According to rue, they are completely unaccountable for what takes place within their borders. That would make them the good guys; after all they evidently can do no wrong – so long as they don’t admit it."

Still haven't learned to read yet ? Or is the problem more deeply embedded between the ears. Or maybe, perhaps, you're one of those soul-less people, like Geezer, who make a point of foisting off dinsinformation at every turn, and lying about what other people post, without pause.

Which is it ?

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Silence is consent.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 9:50 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Does he have to choose? Maybe it's "All of the above"!

In any case... No, Finn I didn't get that from Rue's post.

But what are YOU saying?

That Hamas has control of everything within its borders?

You'd have to post some credible evidence that Hamas broke the cease-fire to justify it being specifically targeted by Israel. Otherwise, Israel's attack on Hamas makes just as much sense as us attacking Iraq for 9-11.

Oh, wait. I forgot. Even THAT mkes sense to you!

In that case... nevermind. Logic was never your strong suit anyway.

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 10:24 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BTW- Please don't come crying to me about how I mis-stated your position, since you do that all the time.

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 11:56 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
But what are YOU saying?

That Hamas has control of everything within its borders?

You'd have to post some credible evidence that Hamas broke the cease-fire to justify it being specifically targeted by Israel. Otherwise, Israel's attack on Hamas makes just as much sense as us attacking Iraq for 9-11.

As noted above, Hamas guaranteed, as part of the June treaty, to prevent any Palestinian factions from attacking Israel. Doesn't matter whether Hamas itself broke the cease-fire. As soon as rockets were fired at Israel, Hamas was in breach of the treaty. Even if they don't have control of everything within their borders, they represented in the treaty negotiations that they did, and could prevent attacks. Maybe they should have been more honest in assessing their control over the other factions.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 1:14 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

GEEZER SAID

Quote:
As soon as rockets were fired at Israel, Hamas was in breach of the treaty.

But

Quote:
On June 19, 2008, Israel and Hamas began observing an Egyptian-mediated ceasefire, which was intended to last six months with an option to extend.

As far as I can tell, the cease-fire expired Dec 19 or thereabouts. In any case, Hamas rockets were not the first cross-border incursion. That was by Israel.

Quote:
Consumed by coverage of the Nov. 4 presidential election, U.S. mainstream media ignored a key Israeli military attack on a Hamas target that some Palestinians claim marked the effective end of the ceasefire between the two sides and set the stage for the current round of bloodletting.

While the major U.S. news wire Associated Press (AP) reported that the attack, in which six members of Hamas's military wing were killed by Israeli ground forces, threatened the ceasefire, its report was carried by only a handful of small newspapers around the country. The Nov 4 raid -- and the escalation that followed -- also went unreported by the major U.S. network and cable television new programmes, according to a search of the Nexis database for all English-language news coverage between Nov. 4 and 7. But the military action, which was followed up by an aerial attack that killed at least one other Palestinian, appears to have dealt a fatal blow to the Egyptian-mediated ceasefire that had taken effect Jun. 19 and largely held for some four and a half months.

http://ipsnews.net/wap/news.asp?idnews=45330

Geezer, disinformationalist extraordinaire.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 1:34 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Children Found Starving
Rescue teams made several attempts to rescue the wounded and retrieve bodies in several areas of Gaza city but were refused entry by Israel Defence Forces (IDF) soldiers.
Quote:
By Mel Frykberg

RAMALLAH, Jan 8 (IPS) - An international chorus of condemnation has blasted Israel over its human rights abuses in Gaza. Operation Cast Lead, into its 12th day, has now claimed the lives of over 700 Palestinians.

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) demanded safe access Thursday for ICRC officials and Palestinian Red Crescent (PRC) ambulances to evacuate the wounded. It accused Israel of deliberately delaying ambulances. Rescue teams made several attempts to rescue the wounded and retrieve bodies in several areas of Gaza city but were refused entry by Israel Defence Forces (IDF) soldiers.

On Wednesday, however, after a week's intensive negotiations with Israeli officials, ICRC officials and PRC ambulance teams managed to reach some of the survivors in Gaza's Zeitoun neighbourhood. The ICRC reported finding four starving toddlers next to the bodies of their dead mothers in one of the houses. The children were apparently too weak to stand. One man was found barely alive. Twelve bodies were found laid out on mattresses in the same house. Fifteen survivors were rescued from another house by the ICRC. Three bodies were found in an adjacent house. The rescue teams kept looking for survivors despite orders by Israeli soldiers that they leave.

"This is shocking," Pierre Wettach, the ICRC's head of delegation for Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories told IPS. "The Israeli military must have been aware of the situation, but did not assist the wounded. Neither did they make it possible for us or the PRC to assist the wounded."

Amnesty International accused the IDF and Palestinian gunmen Wednesday of using Palestinian civilians as human shields.

"Our sources in Gaza report that Israeli soldiers have entered and taken up positions in a number of Palestinian homes, forcing families to stay in a ground-floor room while they use the rest of their house as a military base and sniper position," said Malcolm Smart, Amnesty International's Middle East and North Africa programme director.

"This clearly increases the risk to the Palestinian families concerned, and means they are effectively being used as human shields," he said. While Palestinian gunmen have also used civilian homes as bases to attack Israeli forces, the IDF has adopted this tactic for many years. It is standard IDF policy throughout the occupied West Bank to use Palestinian homes as bases, while confining families to single bedrooms. Israeli soldiers have been filmed forcing Palestinian youngsters to walk in front of army jeeps or to enter a home they fear is booby-trapped or has gunmen inside, before the soldiers follow afterwards.

Amnesty International also slammed Israel's decision to establish a daily ceasefire of only three hours, saying it was insufficient to tackle the unfolding humanitarian crisis.

"A truce that lasts for a few hours a day is simply insufficient. It's too short to address the urgent and massive needs of the civilians who are caught in the hostilities and suffering heavy casualties," said Curt Goering, Amnesty's senior deputy executive director for the U.S. "Israel has severely blockaded aid for nearly all of 2008. The Israeli military can't let aid in for three hours and pretend that is sufficient. Nor would a daily brief 'recess' guarantee the safety of humanitarian workers," Goering noted. Meanwhile, the UN has demanded that Israel provide evidence for its claims that Palestinian gunmen fired on Israeli forces from a UN school compound in northern Gaza before an Israeli artillery attack that killed more than 40 Palestinian civilians there. The UN has categorically denied that any armed men were in the school at the time.

"We have nothing to hide," UN Relief and Welfare Agency (UNRWA) spokesman Chris Gunness told CNN Wednesday. "Bring it on. We want to see the evidence. We want to clear any suspicion." About 14,000 Palestinians have been sheltered by UNRWA schools. The UN also stated that prior to Israel's current military incursion into Gaza it had provided Israel with the GPS coordinates of all UN installations in Gaza. Several years ago Israel caused an international furore when it accused UNRWA ambulances of transporting gunmen in its ambulances. The IDF claimed to have satellite pictures of 'gunmen' loading 'rockets' into the back of an ambulance. A subsequent investigation established that the 'rocket' was a stretcher and the 'gunmen' medics. UNRWA demanded an apology, and never got one. Following the outbreak in 2000 of the second Palestinian uprising, or Intifadah, Israel accused the ICRC of transporting a suicide bomber with an explosives belt around his waist in one of its ambulances. The ICRC strongly denied the claim, and demanded evidence. None has been provided.

Meanwhile, another confrontation could be brewing off Gaza's coast as an international boat carrying humanitarian relief, human rights activists, journalists and politicians prepared to breach Israel's naval blockade of Gaza. Several previous boats made the journey successfully, but during the last attempt the boat Dignity was rammed by Israeli naval vessels and forced at gunpoint to head to Beirut as the damaged vessel took on water. Those on board included U.S. Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney, and a CNN news crew which filmed the incident. (END/2009)
Seems clear to me that Israel has slipped over to the dark side.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 1:34 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
On June 19, 2008, Israel and Hamas began observing an Egyptian-mediated ceasefire, which was intended to last six months with an option to extend.

True.

As cited above, one of the terms of the ceasefire was that Hamas would prevent all Palestinian factions in Gaza from attacking Israel.

Just to be clear, let's repeat:

One of the terms of the ceasefire was that Hamas would prevent all Palestinian factions in Gaza from attacking Israel.

Now, did Hamas prevent all Palestinian factions in Gaza from attacking Israel?

Finn's chronology, in an earlier post, of rocket attacks from Gaza on Israel makes it pretty apparent that Hamas did not, in fact, prevent all Palestinian factions in Gaza from attacking Israel.

Therefore, Hamas violated the terms of the ceasefire.

If you don't consider failure to meet the conditions of the ceasefire a violation, please provide a reasonable explaination of your position.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 2:06 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Finn's chronology, in an earlier post, of rocket attacks from Gaza on Israel makes it pretty apparent that Hamas did not, in fact, prevent all Palestinian factions in Gaza from attacking Israel.

Which conveniently left out Israel's violations.

Quote:
Therefore, Hamas violated the terms of the ceasefire.

As did Israel.

Now, we can get into in kindergarten-style argument of "HE started it!".

But the fact is that Israel has kept the people of Gaza bottled up in all directions, without jobs, medicine, trade, access to their farmland. The barrier completely encircles Gaza (even on the Egyptian side). Almost half of the people in Gaza are unemployed. Even before the Israeli invasion they were short of food, fuel, parts, water and utilities (which Israel turns on and off at whim). Its so like the Warsaw ghetto I'm surprised you don't see the parallel.

According to Avi Shlaim

Quote:
Whatever the numbers, killing civilians is wrong. ... but Israel's entire record is one of unbridled and unremitting brutality towards the inhabitants of Gaza. Israel also maintained the blockade of Gaza after the ceasefire came into force which, in the view of the Hamas leaders, amounted to a violation of the agreement. During the ceasefire, Israel prevented any exports from leaving the strip in clear violation of a 2005 accord, leading to a sharp drop in employment opportunities. Officially, 49.1% of the population is unemployed. At the same time, Israel restricted drastically the number of trucks carrying food, fuel, cooking-gas canisters, spare parts for water and sanitation plants, and medical supplies to Gaza. It is difficult to see how starving and freezing the civilians of Gaza could protect the people on the Israeli side of the border. But even if it did, it would still be immoral, a form of collective punishment that is strictly forbidden by international humanitarian law.

The brutality of Israel's soldiers is fully matched by the mendacity of its spokesmen. Eight months before launching the current war on Gaza, Israel established a National Information Directorate. The core messages of this directorate to the media are that Hamas broke the ceasefire agreements; that Israel's objective is the defence of its population; and that Israel's forces are taking the utmost care not to hurt innocent civilians. Israel's spin doctors have been remarkably successful in getting this message across. But, in essence, their propaganda is a pack of lies.

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine

Israel dominates Gaza, economically and militarily. Because of that, Israel must solve the problem because they are the major cause. It's only your one-sidedness (and Finn's) that keeps you from seeing that.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 2:12 PM

Quote:

Now, we can get into in kindergarten-style argument of "HE started it!".

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought that's what this debate was about :)

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 2:14 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

What I see is a 200-lb bully attacking a baby because "HE started it".

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 2:23 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

And everyone siding with the bully. (OH, poor bully! He might get hurt! Here, let me give you a Taser so you can defend yourself!)

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 3:44 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
And everyone siding with the bully.

Dis-information.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 3:50 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
And everyone siding with the bully.- Signy

Dis-information.-BDN

You're right.

Not everybody.

Not me, for instance.

---------------------------------
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Thursday, January 8, 2009 4:08 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Which conveniently left out Israel's violations.

The first Hamas violation of the ceasefire agreement (per Finn's chronology, which no one has disputed) would have been on June 24, 2008 when they failed to prevent Palestinian attacks on Israel from Gaza. To quote Finn's post, "Two days later(after June 24) more munitions were fired at Israel from Gaza. The next day, and the next day, and two days later. Then on 2 July, 3 July, 7,8,10,12, 13,15, 25, 29,31 July. Then in August 19 Munitions were fired into Israel. In September, 5 munitions. In October, only one. Then in November on the 6, 12, 21, 22, 24, 26 a large number munitions were fired. More munitions were fired on 3 December and 6 December and 12 and 16, 17, 18, and the 19th."

After June 24, 2008, any attack on Israel from Gaza, regardless of who initiated it, was a violation of the Hamas agreement to prevent attacks from Gaza on Israel.

Once again, you seem to think this is good guys versus bad guys. Wrong. Both Hamas(the Gaza government) and the Israeli goverment are the bad guys. The Israeli government has to do the incursions into Palestinian areas to give the impression they're protecting Israel from terrorism and to get money from the world Jewish community. Hamas has to provoke Israeli incursions, dispatch suicide bombers, and provide martyrs to get money from the world Islamic community.

Honestly, I'm not trying to defend Israel in this situation. I'm just trying to make you understand that Hamas is not Robin Hood.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 4:35 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Finn, Geezer

Finn:
"The six-month truce between Hamas and Israel began in 24 June 2008 ..."
No, it began June 19, 2008.

Finn:
"On the SAME damn day as the truce munitions were fired into Israel from Gaza (constituting the FIRST BREACH of the truce)." Then that would have been 6 days AFTER the start of the truce.

Another term of the agreement not mentioned in Geezer's post:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7462554.stm

Under the terms of the new agreement, Israel will ease restrictions on the trade of certain goods between Gaza and Israel on Friday morning, and open up the crossings for all commercial goods next week. (Other news sources stated "within 24 hours".)

Did they ? All indications I found in the news are that Israel never met that agreement, either initially or with the expanded easing of the blockade later.

Now, as I recall, Hamas was pretty pissed about that since people were getting malnourished and going without medical care, clean water, food, or electricity.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 4:38 PM

Quote:

Once again, you seem to think this is good guys versus bad guys. Wrong. Both Hamas(the Gaza government) and the Israeli goverment are the bad guys. The Israeli government has to do the incursions into Palestinian areas to give the impression they're protecting Israel from terrorism and to get money from the world Jewish community. Hamas has to provoke Israeli incursions, dispatch suicide bombers, and provide martyrs to get money from the world Islamic community.

Honestly, I'm not trying to defend Israel in this situation. I'm just trying to make you understand that Hamas is not Robin Hood.

Once again, to my shock and consternation, I find myself in complete agreement with Geezer. It's not bad guys versus good guys - more like bad guys versus bad guys.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 4:49 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I suppose you would have thought the Jews were out of line for their armed resistance in Warsaw.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 5:08 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

So anyway -

We have Israel blockading Gaza and preventing not only the export of goods (leading to 60% unemployment) but also the importing of food, fuel, and medical supplies, as well as the shipment of humanitarian aid.

Sounds like the Warsaw ghetto to me.

Geezer, Finn, Mike ... any excuse to offer for Israel's clearly illegal collective punishment ?

Then Hamas (the legitimately and democratically elected government) - and other organizations - lob (dead weight) rockets into Israel to gain negotiating leverage - to get out of Israel's stranglehold. (For the record, fatalities are few and damage is slight.) Israel responds with massive airstrikes killing hundreds, and Hamas and others respond with still more rockets.

Egypt brokers a cease-fire which takes place 06:00 June 19, 2008. Israel immediately fails to abide by the terms of the agreement, and ease the blockade.

Geezer, Finn, Mike ... any comments explaining why Hamas is the bad guy in this ?

Hamas itself still honors the cease-fire, though select groups, after nearly a week of Israel being in breech, do not. (It would be interesting to see who exactly signed on to the agreement. There were reports of 12 factions that signed it as well as Hamas, but no listing.)

So, here we have Gaza blockaded, STILL effectively encircled by troops, with no one and nothing allowed in, or out.

Geezer, Finn, Mike ... are you starting to see the parallel with Warsaw now ?

WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE GAZA DO ?

***************************************************************

Think about it.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 5:32 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Geezer, Finn, Mike ... any comments explaining why Hamas is the bad guy in this ?

Again and again and again, both Hamas and the Israeli government are the bad guys. They both live off the conflict. They both get big bucks from their supporters as long as they provide martyrs.

The Palestinian and Israeli people who aren't actively trying to kill each other are the victims.

Why don't you understand this?

Hamas is not Robin Hood. The Israeli government is not Lincoln. Figure it out.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 5:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Does he have to choose? Maybe it's "All of the above"!

In any case... No, Finn I didn't get that from Rue's post.

You could have. So you’ve officially included yourself as one of the Hamas apologists?

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
But what are YOU saying?

That Hamas has control of everything within its borders?

I expect Hamas to control factions that are waging war with neighboring states, yes. As does everyone else that’s not Hamas. Are you saying that if a faction in the US started bombing Canada, that the Bush administration would be right in doing nothing about it? And Canada would be wrong for responding? You think the whole thing should simply be ignored as if bombs dropped unanimously don’t cause any damage?

What if a faction in Mexico started bombing your house? You would be okay with that and okay with no one doing anything about it, as long as it wasn't the actual government?

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You'd have to post some credible evidence that Hamas broke the cease-fire to justify it being specifically targeted by Israel.

That evidence has already been posted. As I’ve stated and Geezer as confirmed, Hamas was REQUIRED under the terms of the ceasefire to end the bombing of Israel regardless of who was doing the bombing. On 24 June 2008, Hamas was in breach of the ceasefire, as a matter of FACT.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 5:42 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Israel illegally blockaded Gaza. Hamas, as the legitimately and democratically elected government of Gaza (why do you dislike democracy so much, Geezer ?) has the duty and responsibility to defend its citizens.

What would you have it do ?

***************************************************************

Waiting for you to evade the question again.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 5:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So anyway -

We have Israel blockading Gaza and preventing not only the export of goods (leading to 60% unemployment) but also the importing of food, fuel, and medical supplies, as well as the shipment of humanitarian aid.

Unemployment would be high in Gaza regardless of whether it was being blockaded or not, because Hamas is a thuglord government with no interest in the well being of the Palestinian People. And of course, the problem is that Israel doesn’t want shipment of weapons to be sent into Gaza. When Hamas ends the continuous bombing of Israel as was required under the previous ceasefire, then we can chastise Israel for blockading the port. But Hamas was in breach of the ceasefire within days, evidently, of the truce being signed. It doesn’t look as if there was even time for Israel to end the blockade.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Then Hamas (the legitimately and democratically elected government) - and other organizations - lob (dead weight) rockets into Israel to gain negotiating leverage - to get out of Israel's stranglehold. (For the record, fatalities are few and damage is slight.) Israel responds with massive airstrikes killing hundreds, and Hamas and others respond with still more rockets.

How is Hamas the legitimate government? Hamas was elected to the Palestinian Parliament – it was NOT elected to be totalitarian ruler of the Gaza Strip. Hamas declared itself the sole and unquestionable ruler of the Palestinian territories in 2006, sparking a civil war between Hamas and Fatah. After the civil war, Fatah and the Palestinian Parliament was in control of the West Bank, and Hamas was in control of the Gaza Strip, which continues to wage a war it can’t win using the desperate Palestinian people as fodder.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Geezer, Finn, Mike ... any comments explaining why Hamas is the bad guy in this ?

Hamas has failed to abide by the ceasefire from the beginning. Hamas is a totalitarian thuglord government (not even other arab states support Hamas and both the US and Europe have delcared it a terrorist faction), which uses the Palestinians in Gaza as human shields in a zealous campaign to fulfill their murderous goal of killing Jews.

Hamas’ mission statement is to wage zealous war with no exception on Israel. According to their own covenant, they claim:

Quote:
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. Palestine (meaning Israel) is an Islamic land.
--The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)

Now what does Hamas mean by “jihad?” They spell that out too:

Quote:
...[T]he Islamic Resistance Movement [HAMAS] aspires to realize the promise of Allah, no matter how long it takes. The Prophet, Allah's prayer and peace be upon him, says: "The hour of judgment shall not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, so that the Jews hide behind trees and stones, and each tree and stone will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him,' except for the Gharqad tree, for it is the tree of the Jews."
--The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Geezer, Finn, Mike ... are you starting to see the parallel with Warsaw now ?

So on one hand, you want to compare the Jews in Israel to Nazis who should sit their like good little Jews and get continuously bombed, and then on the other, you want to compare the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto to totalitarian terrorists? Are you starting to see why your apologist attitude toward Hamas could be seen as anti-Semitism?

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 6:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Finn, Geezer

Finn:
"The six-month truce between Hamas and Israel began in 24 June 2008 ..."
No, it began June 19, 2008.

Finn:
"On the SAME damn day as the truce munitions were fired into Israel from Gaza (constituting the FIRST BREACH of the truce)." Then that would have been 6 days AFTER the start of the truce.

Another term of the agreement not mentioned in Geezer's post:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7462554.stm

Under the terms of the new agreement, Israel will ease restrictions on the trade of certain goods between Gaza and Israel on Friday morning, and open up the crossings for all commercial goods next week. (Other news sources stated "within 24 hours".)

Did they ? All indications I found in the news are that Israel never met that agreement, either initially or with the expanded easing of the blockade later.

The truce said that Israel would EASE restrictions, not eliminate them immediately. And it would be NEXT WEEK before they would open up commercial goods. Perhaps I got the actual date of the truce wrong, but it was still within 5 days, not even a week that Hamas violated the truce. Israel never had time to remove the blockade.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 6:38 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Israel illegally blockaded Gaza.

Proof?

Quote:
Hamas, as the legitimately and democratically elected government of Gaza (why do you dislike democracy so much, Geezer ?) has the duty and responsibility to defend its citizens.

Shooting rocket at Israeli towns is gonna end the blockade?

Again and again and again and again, neither the Hamas government of Gaza nor the Israeli government are the good guys here. There are no good guys, There are only governments who want to stay in power and poor schmucks who get killed so those governments can do so.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 6:43 PM

Quote:

Geezer, Finn, Mike ... any excuse to offer for Israel's clearly illegal collective punishment ?

Then Hamas (the legitimately and democratically elected government) - and other organizations - lob (dead weight) rockets into Israel to gain negotiating leverage...

Only that, in this instance and others, Hamas and certain extremists are also pursuing a policy of collective punishment on Israel.

BOTH sides are firing on and killing innocents.

What would I have the Palestinians do? Well, I've suggested before that non-violent civil disobedience would be one method to try. Since that seems unlikely (why it's unlikely, I have no idea, but it certainly doesn't seem to have been given any thought so far), I'd have Hamas target LEGITIMATE targets in Israel: military and government targets.

Don't get me wrong - I GET that the Palestinians have a legitimate beef with Israel. But lobbing unguided rockets into civilian areas isn't a real good way to get the world behind your cause. Hell, lobbing GUIDED ones into Palestinian civilian areas hasn't really won Israel many friends lately, has it?

As I said, both sides are doing the wrong things; hence, bad guys versus bad guys.

I tend to root for the underdog (part of my love for Firefly is grounded in this, a feeling I suppose many of you share), so at this time, my sympathies are with the Palestinians. I truly hope they gain some ground and improve their lot in life. But I'm not likely to stand by and applaud them lobbing crude rockets into civilian areas, any more than I'd applaud Israel doing more of the same.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 7:24 PM