'This is not the America I know,' by deadlockvictim

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

'This is not the America I know,'

POSTED BY: DEADLOCKVICTIM
UPDATED: Saturday, January 10, 2009 13:27
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Friday, January 9, 2009 5:20 AM

The Bush Administration's Most Despicable Act
By JOE KLEIN Thursday, Jan. 08, 2009
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1870319,00.html

Quote:
The President was not telling the truth. "This" was the America he had authorized on Feb. 7, 2002, when he signed a memorandum stating that the Third Geneva Convention — the one regarding the treatment of enemy prisoners taken in wartime — did not apply to members of al-Qaeda or the Taliban. That signature led directly to the abuses at Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo Bay. It was his single most callous and despicable act. It stands at the heart of the national embarrassment that was his presidency.

If Barack Obama really wanted to be cagey, he could pardon Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld for the possible commission of war crimes. Then they'd have to live with official acknowledgment of their ignominy in perpetuity. More likely, Obama will simply make sure — through his excellent team of legal appointees — that no such behavior happens again. Still, there should be some official acknowledgment by the U.S. government that the Bush Administration's policies were reprehensible, and quite possibly illegal, and that the U.S. is no longer in the torture business. If Obama doesn't want to make that statement, perhaps we could do it in the form of a Bush Memorial in Washington: a statue of the hooded Abu Ghraib prisoner in cruciform stress position — the real Bush legacy.

* * *

It seems that the attention span of the majority of Americans can now be measured in nanoseconds.

The atrocities committed under the direction, and with the blessing, of the Bush administration were perhaps the most heinous and reprehensible acts ever sanctioned by a "civilized" country.

Those responsible should be held accountable, IMO, if for no other reason than to set an example for future administrations. We can't stand idly by and allow illegal torture to be committed, for any reason, in the name of the United States.

Torture does not work. It is a political tool - nothing more.

Quote:
Well-trained interrogators, within the military, the FBI, and the police have testified that torture does not work, is unreliable and distracting from the hard work of interrogation.

http://www.cvt.org/main.php/Advocacy/TheCampaigntoStopTorture/WhatCVTk
nowsaboutTorture

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Friday, January 9, 2009 5:32 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

I'm for admitting there's real evil in the world and fighting it, with the gloves off, in order to defeat it. I don't want to negotiate with it, nor do I want to placate and appease evil, so that it'll go on it's way.....

Appeasers keep using that photo of the prisoner in abu ghraib, where NOTHING HAPPENED TO HIM. Those wires weren't attached to any battery, there WAS NO TORTURE there, and yet folks see what they want to see.

Where are the photos of Nick Berg ? Or the countless other innocent victims the Islamic terrorist sawed the heads off of, or mutilated and tortured ?

Funny how THOSE pics never get posted, and the flip side of the coin NEVER gets told.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, January 9, 2009 5:39 AM

ERIC

Quote:
Originally posted by deadlockvictim:
Quote:
More likely, Obama will simply make sure — through his excellent team of legal appointees — that no such behavior happens again.

Two things about that: bull and shit. Any idiot knows, and recent history has proven, that crimes unpunished always happen over and over again, and get worse and worse each time. Obama, like the self-serving empty suit opportunist politician he is, will conveniently ignore Bush's high treason and crimes against the country and the world for the feel-good sake of 'coming together' and 'moving forward,' just like Clinton and Carter did, so that the next time the minions of asshattitude pop up and do something like, I dunno, nuke half the planet we can go through the same stupid charade, and the thugs responsible can walk away and take their expert commentator jobs on Fox like Ollie North. Yeah Klein, actually this IS the America you know. Always was.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 5:44 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
The atrocities committed under the direction, and with the blessing, of the Bush administration were perhaps the most heinous and reprehensible acts ever sanctioned by a "civilized" country.

Oh how I wish that were true.

But it's not.

From the original Alien and Sedition Acts, to Wilsons passionate hatred and encouragement of violence against the IWW, the Sedition Act of 1918, the Palmer Raids, the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII, the second red scare and McCarthy's rage, to the unspoken horrors of the cold war that brought us the wonders of ULTRA and NORTHWOODS...
To the Patriot and MCA Acts of today.

This is far from the worst we've ever done, sadly.

It's just that it was outright, publicly sanctioned policy they didn't even try to hide under a fig leaf of tradecraft that makes it so offensive.

And maybe we oughta learn the fucking lesson this time about forgive and forget, these bastards are ALWAYS there, lurking and waiting till folks forget what unspeakable evils they're capable of gleefully committing and then sleaze back in under one mask or another and do it AGAIN - and we never do take back all the ground we lose, sooner or later, like a decaying orbit.. crunch.

This time, put the boot in and FINISH THE JOB, if folks can't bring themselves to lynch them, at least do the sensible thing and boot them from the country in permanent exile, goddamn if we'd have had the sense to do that to Kissinger and Nixons cronies we'd not BE in this freakin strait today, now would we ?

But no, they'll blow off a sigh of relief and go right back to sleep thinking big daddy Obama's gonna make it all better, not realising they left the gate open for a different set of mostly the same kind of pricks in the meantime.

Not that I expect it'll go any different, but I figured it was worth sayin anyhow...

When it comes to cases they're going to hand me everything I need to crush them on a platter simply because of their own nature, and never even realize they did it till it's too late.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, January 9, 2009 5:44 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM

AU, I will agree with you that there is evil enough to go around - despicable things happen to people on both sides in culture clashes, but there has to be more than simply eye for eye and tooth for tooth.... as long as we continue to condone torture, the rest of the world, not just those who would tear us down, will see us as enablers of the evil we portend to fight against.

The photo in question may be the one used most often to portray the Abu Gharib tragedy - indeed the person in the photo may not have died or even been physically harmed, but, as I am sure you know, there was physical and mental damage inflicted on many in that camp.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 5:59 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Oh, you mean the scammed up JOKE of a gi-joe doll being decapitated that clueless folks like you ran around screaming like chicken little about while I laughed at you - and you *STILL* keep counting as a real event despite it having been totally debunked ?

Or the one where some prankster faked his own ?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/08/08/MNGBN83
I3U1.DTL
And yet you KEEP coming back and including these in your count, as if I wasn't eventually gonna call your dumb ass on it ?

Oh, and let's go back and point out those albino arabs with ole Mr. Berg, carrying the one weapon NO Terrorist faction uses, the M16/M4 platform, yeah.

Oh, and shall we mention the medical impossibility of decapitating a live person with such little bloodshed - or the convenient orange Abu Gharib jumpsuit and that very familiar chair, and how bout those 62 frames when someone wearing a US Army issue cap leans into the picture with the other camera by accident, how about it ?

You're the very definition of gullibility, cause when it comes to something you *want* to believe, you don't care how obviously fabricated the "evidence" is.

EDIT: And certain of the pics from Abu Gharib cannot, should not, be posted on a public forum, even from the officially released files.

And even though they were leaked, the stuff they *didn't* release officially is by NO means acceptable content on any board and should *only* be viewed by the jury in an entirely appropriate war crimes trial of the officers in command of the facility at the time.

Oh yes, and by YOUR logic, since you're a honkey mofo and some other honkey mofo's whipped their slaves, then you wouldn't have no problem with someone killin you over it, right ?

Face it, you're an intolerant bigoted racist zealot trying desperately to excuse it by hiding it under a veil of overblown outrage you don't really feel since you don't even consider those who aren't in agreement with you human enough to care what happens to.

And it's not like we're not all aware of this, so just quit pretending, willya ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, January 9, 2009 5:59 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM

Quote:
Originally posted by Eric:
Yeah Klein, actually this IS the America you know. Always was.

Actually Eric, the quote "This is not the America I know" was by G.W. Bush after the evidence of torture was made public - a feeble attempt to cover his ass.

Klein simply pointed out the lie.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 6:36 AM

ERIC

Quote:
Originally posted by deadlockvictim:
Actually Eric, the quote "This is not the America I know" was by G.W. Bush after the evidence of torture was made public - a feeble attempt to cover his ass.

Klein simply pointed out the lie.

Dangit, that takes the snark down a peg. But I always thought there was something a little too 'conventional wisdom' about Klein. There seem to be a lot of talking heads crowing about accountability, then dismissing even the thought of actual indictments out of hand, because 'it just isn't going to happen' because there isn't a 'public appetite' for it (except there is, they just don't know it). Worst is Pelosi, who has violated her oath of office by rejecting accountability because it might have cost the party votes in the election. Seems THAT'S as much an impeachable offense as anything...

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Friday, January 9, 2009 6:40 AM

ERIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Or the one where some prankster faked his own ?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/08/08/MNGBN83
I3U1.DTL
And yet you KEEP coming back and including these in your count, as if I wasn't eventually gonna call your dumb ass on it ?

Scariest line from that article?

Quote:
"Associated Press Deputy Managing Editor Tom Kent said the news service had reported the beheading as factual because the video had been broadcast on a Web outlet that has previously published information about terrorist group activities in the Middle East that turned out to be true. "

That's facepalm-worthy.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 7:21 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I'm for admitting there's real evil in the world and fighting it, with the gloves off, in order to defeat it.

Must one become evil to fight evil?

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 8:32 AM

DREAMTROVE

signy m,

yes, don't you get it by now? If you wish to torture, you must learn to love it. you can cut the fingers off of children and smash out their teeth, and mutilate and dismember them, then you throw them out the back of the truck just before they die. This is from the testimony of british soldiers on our treatment of iraqis.

But if you don't do this, then you might allow a person to have a different religion. Different=Evil.

BTW, Frem, Joe McCarthy was right
"I dread to think of the day when our children wake up to find America run by the followers of the likes of Max Shachtman."

Those would be wolfowitz, perle, cheney, rumsfeld and others. Shachtman, former head of the American Communist Party's Trotskyite faction was the principle target. He is also considered a founding father of neocon and neolib thought. His disciples are everywhere, and now, they run our govt.

Also, this govt. has done far worse. From Cheyenne to Bagram, there's plenty not to like.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 1:33 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by deadlockvictim:
AU, I will agree with you that there is evil enough to go around - despicable things happen to people on both sides in culture clashes, but there has to be more than simply eye for eye and tooth for tooth.... as long as we continue to condone torture, the rest of the world, not just those who would tear us down, will see us as enablers of the evil we portend to fight against.

The photo in question may be the one used most often to portray the Abu Gharib tragedy - indeed the person in the photo may not have died or even been physically harmed, but, as I am sure you know, there was physical and mental damage inflicted on many in that camp.

If a prisoner is abused or killed, the warden of that prison, more likely than not, is as high up the chain of command as to where the blame rests. Certainly not the Governor of the entire state. This nonsense about laying all the wrongs that occurred at abu ghraib at the feet of Bush, Cheney and who ever else the Left wing demagogues can think up is beyond absurd.

I don't hold that the rest of the world sees us as evil , sadistic torturers , but there are some really bad folks who I'd prefer to see us that way, and maybe they'll think twice before they blow up a school bus or a coffee shop.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 6:59 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
This nonsense about laying all the wrongs that occurred at abu ghraib at the feet of Bush, Cheney and who ever else the Left wing demagogues can think up is beyond absurd.

Which, of course, is why we need to find out how high up the chain of command it goes, and who issued the orders, and who cleared the torture. From what I've seen, it WASN'T the "warden", but someone quite a bit higher up the chain.

By your kind of reckoning, the Nazi hierarchy wouldn't be responsible for the killing of millions in the concentration camps - that responsibility would lie solely at the feet of the camp commanders. Oddly, many of the "foot soldiers" in that Nazi regime claimed that they were only following orders, and the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal ruled that such a defense didn't absolve them of their crimes. Many were hanged for their crimes.

Quote:

I don't hold that the rest of the world sees us as evil , sadistic torturers , but there are some really bad folks who I'd prefer to see us that way, and maybe they'll think twice before they blow up a school bus or a coffee shop.

Or maybe that view will give them all the more impetus to commit such an act.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Friday, January 9, 2009 7:30 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by deadlockvictim:
The atrocities committed under the direction, and with the blessing, of the Bush administration were perhaps the most heinous and reprehensible acts ever sanctioned by a "civilized" country.

Am I reading this right? Did he just say that the Bush administration has committed the most heinous and reprehensible acts ever.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:27 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
[
By your kind of reckoning, the Nazi hierarchy wouldn't be responsible for the killing of millions in the concentration camps - that responsibility would lie solely at the feet of the camp commanders. Oddly, many of the "foot soldiers" in that Nazi regime claimed that they were only following orders, and the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal ruled that such a defense didn't absolve them of their crimes. Many were hanged for their crimes.

So, you equate a few bad apples acting up against some very bad , evil men to the state organized and initiated plan of building concentration camps, arresting millions of men, women and children, stripping them of their property and possessions, sent by the box load on trains to these camps, worked to death, tortured and put into ovens, in an overt attempt to EXTERMINATE undesirables ???

You're kidding, right? You MUST be.

Quote:

Quote:

I don't hold that the rest of the world sees us as evil , sadistic torturers , but there are some really bad folks who I'd prefer to see us that way, and maybe they'll think twice before they blow up a school bus or a coffee shop.

Or maybe that view will give them all the more impetus to commit such an act.

Mike

We already DON'T do that, and they believe lies anyways. So what if we torture 2 or 3 really bad guys. The nut case terrorist already attacked us on 9/11, long before abu ghraib. So what the hell do we care what the think ??

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