The end of an error. by chrisisall

Wulf, everyone

Chill. If I recall correctly Wulf is in a multi-ethnic marriage and he's not the only one on the board. Odds of him being racist are real slim.

That said, people seem a little on edge. I don't know if it's Obama, or today's stock market collapse, or what, but just find a something relaxing, before we get into another war.

It was so peacefully silly on this board for the past week or so. The worst hostility involved whozit and a bagel.

I like the quiet

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Tuesday, January 20, 2009 11:42 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Dream,

I appreciate your attempt at keeping the peace.

Peace is worth silence.

However, I will not take to being challenged by small-minded INDIVIDUALS lightly.

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Tuesday, January 20, 2009 12:01 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
I just hope he is better than Carter.

'Cause it's a fact that Bush sure as hell wasn't!

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Tuesday, January 20, 2009 2:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
You're right Rap.

Democrats are to blame for everything since the dawn of time, and will be till the end of time. Not only that, Bush was a great man and a great president. Iraq was an immediate threat. Bush kept us totally safe, except for 9/11 which was Clinton's fault. Obama is an ineligible imposter, and it doesn't matter that the oath was flubbed b/c it was a fake Bible with the Koran stuffed inside.

Just keep repeating that.

I like how you dream up imaginary positions and views for other people, ignoring any and everything they say, an interjecting these strawman arguments. It's quite a gift, you have.

Yeah, like calling all liberals "un-American terrorist-lovers"...

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Tuesday, January 20, 2009 2:33 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
He has a good speech writer.

Yeah, I think the guy's name is Barack... something or other...

[/sig]

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Tuesday, January 20, 2009 2:36 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Rappie

"I like how you dream up imaginary positions and views for other people, ignoring any and everything they say, an interjecting these strawman arguments. It's quite a gift, you have."

You didn't recognize some leg-pulling ? OK, to be VERY clear, in caps and bold --- I WAS PULLING YOUR LEG.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, January 20, 2009 2:55 PM

Wulfie ?

Been there, done that - but serious, I know what a bitch it is, and how it freakin haunts a person even years later, I mean, have I not posted that exact viewpoint a time or two, having climbed out of starveling poverty in south baltimore with nothing more than sheer ruthlessness to begin with ?

That said, to be completely blunt you do got issues with letting go of it, and how you view other folk when enraged - and you know you've got em cause I watch you try to step above them, despite failing here and there, so props for tryin, but denying that it's left it's mark on you and how you view people isn't the way to go about it.

Don't make you a bad person cause at least you got the balls to try, but you need to find a way to start cuttin loose that baggage train, or in the end it's gonna suck you back down into the very pit you've spent a good bit of your life trying to escape.

And you did escape, so don't carry it with you, mano, that's a self-inflicted punishment if there ever was one, just sayin...

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, January 20, 2009 5:40 PM

I'm gonna side with Lucy here.

Many of us have been through a scrape or two. I've been through at least a dozen that could have ended my life, and some that technically have. We carry it with us, but we own it, use it as learning material. And sure, sometimes you want to vent, but just scan back to that gaza thread and see where that leads.

I've been the crazy homeless guy, wandering the world. I have to say, not all societies and people treat the crazy homeless guy the same, and it's somewhat interesting who cuts him a break, probably the break that he needs.

I don't know if we can ever really lose the baggage train, but we sometimes we have to check the baggage at the door. Other folks haven't been through the same experience, they aren't likely to see the perspective, and though I appreciate the insights, you know that some folks won't. There are a lot of simple viewpoints. I know I'm not the only former mental patient on this board. I also know that when someone calls me a lunatic it has no negative impact whatsoever on me. Sort of like I suspect calling Kirk a neanderthal doesn't. Or geezer old, if he's really old, I've never really figured that out.

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Tuesday, January 20, 2009 8:10 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
You can hate whomever the fuck you want, for whatever reason you have. Thats your right, thats your freedom. I won't try and take that from you.

But there are OTHER CHOICES. Like letting it go, like living your life by judging others by their actions, not their race, creed, or religion. If you choose to hate me cuz Im whatever, more power to you. You can, I won't stop you. Mess with me, of course, and I'll put as many .40 bullets in you as I can.

But there is another way, beyond hate, beyond being a political correctness slave. We can choose differently. We can choose to see each person AS A PERSON, good or ill. And fight for or against them as needed.

I noticed that you give permission to hate. What about permission to love, to understand, and to help? How is hating people individually different from hating them as a group? It's still hate. More directed, maybe, but still hate.

It's like I was saying before to Finn... all people have lizard-brains. We learn patterns of behavior from our childhood. Our brains are "wired" ... physically structured... by our environment.

Study after study has shown that kids in dangerous, abusive environments don't grow up cool and collected, they grow up scared and angry. Kids who are beaten don't become desensitized to pain... they experience pain more intensely later. Kids depending on people who lie and cheat don't become smarter and more savvy, they distrust their own opinion and become gullibly reliant. Kids who grow up in chaotic, unpredictable environments become timid. Harsh circumstances don't help anyone become better. The fact that Wulf (sorry Wulf, I'm not picking on you) thinks that NOT going to the top of a tower and picking off "sheep" is a personal triumph only shows how close ANY of us are to being an evil crazy bastard. And Wulf is a person who has all of his marbles. What about someone who's slower? Can't control his impulses as well? Wulf and the peeps he grew up with are separated by a hairsbreadth.

Just some personal comments. I was a lucky kid. I loved everyone and enough people loved me that... heck, I have a hard time getting mad at anyone. My mom used to get mad at me. Why don't you stand up for yourself? she'd kind of berate me. But my answer was I just want everyone to be happy. But my SO grew up in an abusive household and survived a war. He was smart enough and oppositional enough not to be dominated by his dad, directly. He learned steely self-control. But he also learned to be hyper-vigilant and very controlling. And when he's under stress, he becomes intimidating, because that's how he escaped, when he was old enough. Even the very smart and self-aware are branded by their early experience, for good or not. If we want a less violent society (And I dunno. Do we? We don't ACT like it! A lot of peeps act like here is something intrinsically valuable to violence.) then we have to BE less violent.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Tuesday, January 20, 2009 11:33 PM

Siggy, you'll notice that despite my willingness to resort to violence that I discourage it in others and in fact idolize those who can resolve issues without it ?

That ain't hypocrisy, as much as it is dealin with my own past in combination with a full and complete awareness of your final point and how it relates.

That said, there's times when violence is warranted, or even downright necessary - and I wish to hell there weren't, but sometimes there are.

The hard part for many of us, is sorting out which is which.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:28 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Sometimes violence is necessary. Unfortunately for me, I'd have a very hard time applying it! That's the hole in MY personality.

We (not the board, our entire culture) is so dependent on violence... it's so ingrained in our view of what "how people really are", so intrinsic to what we think is effective, natural, valuable... that we have a hard time even imagining our nation without it. It would be as if we were unmanned. We start making up reasons for it: What if we're attacked at a neighborhood-level by a million jihadists who'll saw off your son's head? What if the black (or pale blue) helicopters descend en masse from the sky? What if the Crips (or the Bloods) or the drug cartels take over the nation? What peeps don't realize is that 300 million people taking one step in one direction is way more powerful than a guy with a garage full of weaponry.

So, yes, violence sometimes IS necessary. Unfortunately, we've made our society into what we believe, which is that violence and its evil twin vengeance are the ONLY tools avsilable to handle violence

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:28 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
I just hope he is better than Carter.

'Cause it's a fact that Bush sure as hell wasn't!

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

Bush won in the middle east. Carter didn't.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:30 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rappie

"I like how you dream up imaginary positions and views for other people, ignoring any and everything they say, an interjecting these strawman arguments. It's quite a gift, you have."

You didn't recognize some leg-pulling ? OK, to be VERY clear, in caps and bold --- I WAS PULLING YOUR LEG.

Hard to tell, sometimes via this format. Especially when folks like Citizen make such colossally absurd claims.

LegpulledRaptor

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:38 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

So, yes, violence sometimes IS necessary. Unfortunately, we've made our society into what we believe, which is that violence and its evil twin vengeance are the ONLY tools avsilable to handle violence

It's the first lesson of the schoolyard, unfortunately.
I became good at it through necessity.

The martial Chrisisall

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:39 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM

Seems I recall a fable/fairy tale/Isaiah 11:6..??... about lions (wolves) lying with lambs....

what a crazy notion.....

hate breeds hate

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:58 AM

Signy

just anecdotally, I'd say that the majority of fuckups I've known have been abused children, but not all. The majority have been substance abusers, but not all. I can't think of one that doesn't fit into one of the two categories.

But the converse has not been true. Most abused children i've known have not been fucked up, and at least some substance abusers have not been hopeless.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 6:22 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Seems I recall a fable/fairy tale/Isaiah 11:6..??... about lions (wolves) lying with lambs....

what a crazy notion.....

hate breeds hate"

EXCEPT, what they don't tell you in those stories, is that the lambs get eaten when no-ones looking.

It was not my intent to give a sob story. I'm just trying to give a different (my) perspective on things.

Its the 800lb gorilla in the living room. TOO MANY folks out there, just dance around the issue , and ignore the truth and problem of it.

These people do remind me of the Eloi in that respect. Folks who live in this fantasy world where everything is great, and we can all hold hands and dance around singing kum-by-ya.

But thats not the truth of it.

The truth is closer to HBO's "The Wire"...(at least the 1st season).

Do you really want your life to be like it was in that show? Do you want your children living like that, surrounded like that, fighting for their lives like that?

Im sure its not easy for folks to swallow, the idea that things could ever be like that.. (at least for them) But it can happen. It happened to me, and it can happen to you. In fact, it probably WILL happen to you. Or your children, or your childrens children....unless we do something. And soon.

Unless we do something, we are all dooming ourselves (or our children) to live in that kind of hell.

Now the question is, what do we do about it? Throwing money at the problem doesnt make it go away. In fact, it just makes it worse. (Give a thug 30 grand, and he'll go out and buy an Escalade with gold rims...)

Now, I agree with the old proverb that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. So what do we do? Keep in mind that the 60's happened almost 50 years ago. How much has changed FOR THE BETTER?

I believe the first step is opening peoples eyes. Showing them what things are really like. Showing them what they CAN BE LIKE. THEN, once folks are good and ready, actually working to FIX it.

Not with platitudes, or the easy solutions...but with hard work and hard decisions..

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 6:28 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Keep in mind that the 60's happened almost 50 years ago. How much has changed FOR THE BETTER?

From the movie Time After Time: "All ages are the same, it's only love that makes any of them bearable."

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 6:44 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I believe the first step is opening peoples eyes. Showing them what things are really like. Showing them what they CAN BE LIKE.

Wulf, you seem to think that many of us have our heads buried in the sand about how bad things "could" get. Not so. I lived in some VERY crappy neighborhoods (when I was older), been a crime victim several times over, evn had a year of feeling what PTSD is like. And I think the average American DOES have an idea of what it's like. That's why they choose to live in the 'burbs.

What YOU don't understand is how GOOD things "could" be. We're not the only society in the world. We COULD be like Somalia, which is 100X worse. Or we COULD be like Sweden, which is 100X better. Which do we choose?

And yes, it IS a choice. It's entirely up to us.

Quote:
THEN, once folks are good and ready, actually working to FIX it.

And now we get to the nub. Fix it... HOW? Did you know that of all the industrialized nations, the USA not only has the highest incarceration rate, it also has the highest crime rate?

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 7:11 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

O BTW Frem, I know YOU know what I mean. I'm just writing for others.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 7:20 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Or we COULD be like Sweden, which is 100X better. Which do we choose?

I have a friend that lives in Holland & she loves it.

The wood shoe Chrisisall

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 7:24 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Heres how you fix a good slice of the crime pie...

1. Legalize weed. For Gods sake, do you know how much money this country could be making? Just treat it like booze...(you can't smoke and drive, you are still responsible for your actions even under the influence.)

2. Get rid of most gun-control laws. If you are a crazy bastard, no gun for you. Otherwise, arm up everybody. You are responsible for what you do with it, but you have the absolute right to defend yourself, your family, and your property at all times. Anywhere and at any time.

3. Along with getting rid of most gun-control, make citizens arrest a real thing. Gangs move in down the street? You can jump them, arrest them, and get their ass off the streets.

4. Take away any power of search and seizure from the police. Unless they have a search warrant. Get rid of so-called probable cause.

5. If you are an illegal...bye-bye. Gone. Period.

6. English is the official language. You must speak it. Period.

7. Corporations are responsible, explicitly, for their products. Know something in your product is defective and can kill someone, yet you let it go? Heads of the corporations face the death penalty. AND all of their money goes to the victims of their products.

8. Cops must wear a camera. This I'm a little iffy about, but they must video tape every arrest or encounter with a citizen.

9. If a cop, like the one at the BART murder, behave as they did...death penalty.

10. Take down and get rid of all monitoring cameras. Period.

Its not a lot, but its a damn good start.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 7:47 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

With ya on about half of that, Wulf.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:05 AM

I disagree with wulf's platform.
Vehemently disagree with 6, and the only one I kinda agree with is 7, except for the CEO part. Often it's not the CEO's fault that the product is defective.

The cop thing conflicts with the rest of your platform: You're missing that cops would edit their own camfeeds, cover up the lens, etc. if they wanted to break laws, meanwhile, just cops standing about would become a surveillance network all over again.

IMHO, some things that would solve a lot of the nations problems:

1. Privatize education, and any other social service.

2. public transportation, would solve numerous problems, and increase freedom of movement.

3. Get rid of the US military. The individual state's national guard is more powerful than any nation that threatens the US.

4. Ditch the federal reserve. Let the states mint currency.

5. Ditch the concept of federal laws, except those relating to conducting affairs between states, let states have their own laws, as long as those don't conflict with the bill of rights, etc.

6. Get rid of income tax, in any form, other than possibly corporate income tax, which is authorized.

Re: English, the ability to use other languages is a primary defense against surveillance and also, a primary right of americans to set up their own society. It's protection from MSM infiltration. If groups of mennonites want to speak 15th century german, that's their right and choice, and in doing so, they have protected their children from the MSM propaganda machine, because no one is going to be rebroadcasting the message in 15th century German.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:15 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Hey, before we get real theoretical and pie-in-the-sky-ish, can we go back a bit to... which country we'd like to be like? Are there ANY out there that look kinda like what you want?

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:38 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Sig,

I have no intention being like any other country.

We arn't LIKE any other country.

We never should be.

Other countries and people should want to be like US.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:43 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Umm, okay.

What about the other folks out there reading this?

Any countries or bits of countries you'd like to be like? Because if you want to BE like them you might want to DO like them. Or perhaps there are lessons we could draw from other nations' experiences. Seems like we have all kinds of wish-lists and theories, but not as much idea as how they would turn out in practice.

-------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:57 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I vote Canada. It's great.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:57 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ok, I'd like to see us more like Germany is (Now).

All of its citizens are militarily trained.

Each citizen is explicitly responsible for their actions.

And before you start that Nazi crap, I took my wife over there about 3 years ago. We had NO problems. In fact, cus we were so jet-lagged, we saw most of Germany at night...late night at that.

Everyone kept to themselves, were responsible with their drinking and their behavior.

It was efficient and calm.

Hell, I felt more like I was returning to a Nazi state when I came home, then I did when I was in Germany.

Hows that for weird?

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 9:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Bush won in the middle east. Carter didn't.

Bush "won"? So it really WAS "Mission Accomplished"? What did he "win"? The wars there are completely over, then, and we're done and all our soldiers have come home, eh? Well, except for the more than 4000 who died there, that is.

So Bush got more than 7000 Americans killed between 9/11 and yesterday, but your take is that he "won" the middle east.

Yer crackin' me up, boy.

Also among Bush's stellar accomplishments: Shaving nearly 45% off value of the stock market. From a high just over 14000, he managed to drive the stock market down to just under 8000 on his last day in office.

Oh, and he also managed to get us awfully close to that magical 10% unemployment figure that Carter gets blamed for (but which actually didn't occur until well into Reagan's first term!)...

Keep on telling yourself that Bush was better than Carter.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 9:05 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070318/26intro.htm

HOW THEY DO IT BETTER
By Susan Headden
Posted 3/18/07

US News and World Report

We have the biggest GDP, the finest universities, the highest ownership of color TVs, and the greatest number of Nobel Prize winners. So how come the Danes are the happiest people in the world? Living in the dark, no less.

Schoolchildren in New Zealand are cleaning our clocks in math and science. Teachers are better paid and more respected in Japan. Our highways are choked with traffic, but we can't manage to build a train that goes more than 150 mph.
Our eating habits? Please. Just compare our average portion with a meal in Japan, and you'll understand why our adult obesity rate is 32 percent, compared with only 3.6 percent for the Japanese. The French, likewise, are slim and well fed-and they offer world-class dinner conversation to boot. Their secret: They don't want to know what you did yesterday; they want to engage you in a lively discussion of ideas.

But our shortcomings are bigger than dining and discourse. Remarkably, the United States is nowhere to be found on the Economist's global index of lowest infant mortality. At the other end, our average life expectancy, at 77.9, puts us 40th in the world- after Costa Rica and Cuba. As for our treatment of the planet, we're down at No. 28 on the global index of environmental performance, a value based on six measurements of environmental health. Meanwhile, Denmark manages to get 20 percent of its energy from the wind. And in Singapore, tossing a candy wrapper on the sidewalk will set you back a thousand bucks.

On a grimmer index, America has more people in prison-2,135,900-than any other country in the world. And the highest rate of gun-related homicides of all industrialized nations. If we followed Europe's example of treating drug addicts rather than jailing them, would the numbers go down? It's a complex and controversial question. But Holland's experience shows that treatment of drug abuse is at least vastly cheaper than the alternative.

In the following pages, we offer 30 lessons we can learn from other countries. The list is admittedly unscientific and decidedly incomplete. We're not even saying that all of these practices would work here; if Americans wanted free day care and government-funded maternity leave, after all, they'd have to pay Norway-size taxes.

What follow are simply practices that intrigued us: the Germans retraining prostitutes to care for the elderly, the Brazilian buses that are so clean and efficient that even the rich people ride them, and the Japanese toilets that deodorize the room and put the seat down when you're done.

What from your travels has caused you to ask: "Why can't we do this here?" Let us hear from you.

30 Valuable Lessons That Americans Can Learn From the Rest of the World: (original contains links)

Europe: Giving Drivers the Benefit of the Doubt
Germany, Netherlands: Making the Streets Safer for Cycling
Dominican Republic: Where Ballplayers Are Born and Made
Colombia: All Aboard South America's Upper-Class Bus
Finland: Sticking It to the Scofflaw
Europe: Flying on the Cheap
Japan, South Korea: Want a Drink? Pay With Your Phone
France: Talking Is a World-Class Sport
Japan: Even the Toilet Is High-Tech
Australia: Protection From the Sun
Afghanistan: Honored to Be Your Host
Japan: Skimpy Portions and Satisfied Stomachs
Netherlands: Below Sea Level? No Problem
Finland: The Secret to Smarter Schools
Germany: Novel Aides for the Aged
Sweden: Straight Facts About the Birds and Bees
Italy: Food Not as Fuel but as a Way of Life
Taiwan: The Afternoon Nap Attack
Japan: Communing Through Cleaning
Netherlands: Abuse as a Disease, Not a Crime
Singapore: When You Litter, You Pay
Norway: Getting Paid for Parenting
Europe: Holes That Make for Better Roads
Bhutan: Smoke-Free at the Top of the World
Iceland: Pristine Reputation for Government
United Kingdom: Finding Yourself (and the World) in a Year
Europe: Cities With a Heart
Denmark: Energy Efficiency From the Wind
United Kingdom: Free Health Coverage for All
Japan: More Stressed, but Still Safer

This story appears in the March 26, 2007 print edition of U.S. News & World Report.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 9:08 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Mike,

Remember that Rap can breeze past Bush's abysmal failure by saying 'except for 9/11'. If those 2974 deaths count for nothing, surely additional deaths count for less than nothing.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 9:13 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ok, I'd like to see us more like Germany is (Now).

All of its citizens are militarily trained.

Thats not exactly true, Germany has conscription, but there's exceptions and people can refuse it and conduct civilian service instead. There is in actuallity probably less than 50% of Germany citizens with military training.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 9:43 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Well, if this is true...its still pretty good.

Criminals KNOW that in Germany there is a 50/50 chance that the person they are going to try and rob/rape/murder is militarily trained and armed.

No wonder the crime rate is so low.

We need to do that here.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:21 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

But Wulf, that could be Somalia, or Colombia, or Mexico. There's more to Germany than being saturated with guns, like...

---------------
a postive balance of trade and a healthy industrial sector

high taxes (VAT of 19%... similar to our "sales tax") and income tax up to 50%

a school system which prohibits home schooling, refers to a national curriculum, and has a national anti-bullying program

nationalized basic industries: power, water, telecom, mass transportation and roads,

state-mandated insurance plans (with the "government plan" being one option)

cradle-to-grave social welfare which accounts for approximately 30% of GDP

low military costs

an extensive network of regulations, even making manufacturers liable for the ultimate disposal of not only the product but the packaging

an economic inequality index of approximately 28, as compared to a US index of 48.

Maybe the low crime rate has more to do with people not being as stressed out there as they are here. You willing to go along with the rest of the package?

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:43 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Of course Im not for that, Sig. The question was what PART of other countries do we like.

That was the PART I liked.

The rest of the system they live under is still National Socialism. Its just that they don't kills Jews anymore.

SOME may find it ok to be a wage-slave to the government...but not I.

50% of their paycheck goes to the government....Jesus Christ....what a bunch of pussies.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:48 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Well, you like the low crime rate. You like that people seem relaxed and free to live their lives, even at night. You THINK it's because of conscription and a high rate of gun ownership. But you haven't shown a cause-and-effect relationship, and I could probbaly destroy your assumed connection simply by finding other nations with similar conscription and gun ownerships with high crime. Or nations with equally low crime rates, or even lower, with less gun ownership and NO conscription. Guess what I'm saying is... a single correlation between two factors in one country doesn't mean there's a cause and effect relationship.

Quote:
what a bunch of pussies.

Who are, apparently, aggressive and well-armed enough to keep crime down? Doesn't compute, Wulf.

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:56 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

They are weak in that they allow their government to take, by force, 1/2 of their paycheck.

Not in how they deal with crime.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:01 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM

country? i like canada just fine, but given the choice, i will go with Holland, er ah, Netherlands that is... (it's a roots thing)

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:02 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Clearly, the Germans are happy with their government.

But you still haven't shown a cause-effect relationship between gun ownership/ widespread military training and low crime. In fact, you haven't even shown a consistent correlation across several nations. You THINK that's the answer to low crime rate, based on your persoanl experience, but you're going to have to go farther than that. Too many other factors are different.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:04 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Sig, are you going to make me look all this shit up?

Even if I did, and presented it to you, you would just say that the results are up for interpretation.

So, Ill just skip ahead, and agree to disagree.

Savy?

Feeling lazy today, and don't want to get into an argument spiral with you.

(See? No snarky comments from me. Just an adios...)

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:09 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Sig, are you going to make me look all this shit up?

Yes, you SHOULD look it up.

Quote:
Even if I did, and presented it to you, you would just say that the results are up for interpretation.

That's what learning is all about, innit?

Quote:
I'll just skip ahead, and agree to disagree.

And I'll agree to disagree since you have't made your case and apparently aren't interested in doing so.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:21 AM

Wulfie, the simplest, cleanest method is to encourage manufacturers to make proper training a condition of sale - AND make them responsible for who they sell to.

Customer comes in, hands over the dough, certificate of training and a legal statement signed by their physician that they have no physical/mental *issues* that'll cause a problem.

Seller checks and verifies documents, then files them in a sealed hardcopy or electronic form which is sacrosanct to everything but a proper warrant issued for that particular individuals records in relation to a crime.
(i.e no "fishing expeditions")

This ensures that the folk who have a gat know how to use it properly and when not to, sets a bulwark against handing them to known violent criminals - and does it without violating anyones rights or involving the Government where it has no right or reason to be.

As for the rest - even Ghandi had a gat, he was just unwilling to use force till he'd tried other methods, most folk don't get that cause over time the bullshit mythmaking factory has kinda distorted what he was saying.

His point was that resorting to violence first cause it's easier and often more short term effective is a stupid and foolish way to conduct yourself, has a tendancy to cause as many problems as it solves, and lock you and the other party into an endless cycle of revenge and count-revenge that does nothing but make work for the undertaker - but he did *NOT* speak against it's necessity sometimes or as something to be avoided at all costs, he spoke of it as the last resort and a failure to use other means effectively.

I cannot teach you violence, as I do not myself believe in it. I can only teach you not to bow your heads before any one even at the cost of your life.

I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent.

It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

Victory attained by violence is tantamount to a defeat, for it is momentary.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.

An unjust law is itself a species of violence. Arrest for its breach is more so.

Anger is the enemy of non-violence and pride is a monster that swallows it up.

I suppose leadership at one time meant muscles; but today it means getting along with people.

If we are to teach real peace in this world, and if we are to carry on a real war against war, we shall have to begin with the children.

Intolerance is itself a form of violence and an obstacle to the growth of a true democratic spirit.

It is any day better to stand erect with a broken and bandaged head then to crawl on one's belly, in order to be able to save one's head.

It is easy enough to be friendly to one's friends. But to befriend the one who regards himself as your enemy is the quintessence of true religion. The other is mere business.

Man's nature is not essentially evil. Brute nature has been know to yield to the influence of love. You must never despair of human nature.

You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

When restraint and courtesy are added to strength, the latter becomes irresistible.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

Ghandi never demanded anyone else take non-violence as far as he did, and in fact plainly stated that if you could not resist non-violently, then you could, and should resist violently because as awful as violence is, to not resist that which is wrong was surely worse.

He wasn't the moon-eyed pacifist nutter modern "history" makes him out to be, but rather a dude with a serious point to make, who's people were in a situation much like Hamas, where violence was *not* gonna solve it and would probably get them all killed - and so he personally took that point to an extreme and put his whole life and being behind it so that his people would have an example.

My problem with following it is the plain and simple fact that imma bloodthirsty sumbitch by nature and training, and if I let it get away from me I'll use far more violence than the situation calls for, but I learned from an excellent teacher* how to spot a situation and spike it BEFORE it blows into something where violence is necessary, I've never yet *had* to bust caps on someone cause of that, and it's well worth learning.

My Niece has kinda the opposite problem, her very nature make it a repugnant thought to do harm to another person, which is an admirable level of humanity, but of little help against a boy with roaming hands who's not inclined to take no for an answer.
Soon as she's old enough, that girl's gettin a cattle prod for her B-day, cause nothin says NO like 12000 volts, eh ?

Nothin wrong with not wanting to hurt people, but if it's you or them, take Ghandis advice and bust some heads.

-Frem
*That guy is long since wormfood, but Marc "animal" McYoung teaches an excellent and almost identical course these days.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:25 AM

What country.. hmm..

I'd model it after Somalia :)

I like Japan, S.K., Taiwan that was. Those are pretty sound. Finland. Eastern europe, esp. czech.

Least like? N.K., zimbabwe, S.A., El. Sal.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:36 AM

Checked out McYoungs page for updates (which is chock full of some damned good free advice, mind you) since I posted the link and all, and spotted something WELL worth a read.

I think Wulfie and Kirk would find it interesting despite knowing this stuff already, and those who don't should at least read through and get an understanding of the basic concepts.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/HighriskbehaviorRome.htm

He's actually pretty dead-on about us "Barbarians".

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:21 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Funny. Jan 20 was the beginning of an Error. Some thought it was corrected on Jan 21. The 20th nobody could repeat the Constitutional quote correctly, and then on the 21st no "oath" was taken with a Bible.

So the beginning of an Error without President is here.

Is he still a Kenyan resident?

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Thursday, January 22, 2009 3:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Funny. Jan 20 was the beginning of an Error. Some thought it was corrected on Jan 21. The 20th nobody could repeat the Constitutional quote correctly, and then on the 21st no "oath" was taken with a Bible.

So the beginning of an Error without President is here.

Is he still a Kenyan resident?

Show me the part of the Constitution where it says anything about taking the oath "with a bible". I can't find it. All I could find about the subject was this, quoted from the United States Constitution:

Quote:

Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:—"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Huh... nothing in there about a bible at all.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Thursday, January 22, 2009 4:25 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Frem,

That website was quite interesting. I've never heard these things put in such a way.

The Romans and the Barbarians. lol

Edited: But it seems (on this page) he is speaking mostly to the customs of L.A. gangs (most of whom are Hispanic). Which is a different subset, that DOES have rules....or at least ones in which someone with white skin can operate.

HOWEVER, as I keep reading, much of what he says otherwise is correct.

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Thursday, January 22, 2009 4:30 AM