Why CAN'T Ron Paul be President? by Wulfenstar

In all honesty, even though I agree with 90% of his political philosophy, there are several reasons - some of them good ones.

But the biggest reasons aren't good ones. First of all, people simply don't want what he's selling. Limited government makes sense to those of us who place high value on personal freedom, but to most folks it just sounds scary. Our nation is pretty firmly entrenched in the 'caretaker state' mentality, and people are accustomed to the idea that the government is there to take care of them.

Second, most Democrats and Republicans don't see government the way the founding fathers did. Rather than seeing the government's role as primarily that of protecting liberty, they see government as a way to get one over on the other guy. To them, the power of law is a tool to make other people comply with their idea of "the good life". They have a clear vision of how other people ought to behave and freedom gets in the way of that vision.

As for the good reasons, the biggest has to do with his personality. He's a libertarian to the core, even in making decisions about his own campaign. His leadership style reflects his laissez-faire mentality and, while I'd love to see more of that attitude in the White House, its not necessarily the best trait for a chief executive.

The other factor working against him is that the presidency is about much more than policy and decision making. There's a significant figurehead aspect to the office and a good president needs to inspire a broad range of people. Ron Paul's exchanges with Rudy Guiliani in the primaries illustrated this well. To the people listening closely to the arguments presented, Ron Paul made Giuliani look like a moron. But most people saw it exactly the opposite. They were listening to tone of voice, attitude, presentation, (demagoguery?) and to them Rudy scored major points in those exchanges. Ironically, they both did, but with completely different audiences.

The point is Ron Paul doesn't "inspire confidence" in most people, and his speaking style doesn't project clarity and strength, even if his ideas do. Image matters. That's why so many people like Obama, even when they disagree with his policies (myself included).

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 7:07 AM

ELVISCHRIST

Because he's three billion years old, and the GOP doesn't believe that ANYTHING on Earth is older than 6000 years!

Don't tell me that my ship is coming in...
Time's running out the door you're running in.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 7:17 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Very well written Sergent. I agree with you completely on what you said concerning his "image".

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 7:18 AM

KELKHIL

<.<

>.>

<.<

Cuz he wasn't elected. Seems kinda obvious

Zombie Killing, Ninja in Training Kelkhil
The Shirtless Forsaken

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 7:29 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Doesnt mean he won't be in the future.

Remember who you are dealing with on this site.

BrownCoats = Diehards.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 7:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kelkhil:
<.<

>.>

<.<

Cuz he wasn't elected. Seems kinda obvious

Heh.... yeah, they're pretty strict about that.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 7:50 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
I'm curious as to peoples arguments against him.

So, please. Tell me why he shouldn't be President.

The main reason is because he can't get elected.

If it wasn't for the part were more people vote for him then the other fella in a majority of the states...he probably could be President.

So really its the Constitution thats his biggest problem.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 8:27 AM

ELVISCHRIST

Quote:

If it wasn't for the part were more people vote for him then the other fella in a majority of the states...he probably could be President.

Psshh - details. That's not really an obstacle, you know.

Don't tell me that my ship is coming in...
Time's running out the door you're running in.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 8:33 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ahhh, everybodys got jokes...

But really, Im looking for reasons from the peanut gallery as to why he wouldnt be a good president.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 8:42 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Wulf

There's a joke - It shows a knight charging on horseback, way waaaay ahead of the other knights in the charge, with the thought balloon over his head that says - - - I'm fucked.

Now imagine where those other knights would be if the guy in front was saying - you guys are jokes ! You're cowards. You're stupid ! You don't know what's good for you ! Only I know !

Do you think those other knights would even BE in the background ?

The problem with calling the 98% of people who don't agree with you names as your main rallying call is that it's not going to win the argument or get you any allies.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 8:45 AM

WASHNWEAR

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
... The point is Ron Paul doesn't "inspire confidence" in most people, and his speaking style doesn't project clarity and strength, even if his ideas do. Image matters.

Sad but true. I saw him for the first time on The Daily Show a while back, and I did not exactly feel like I was being bathed in charisma.

If you could combine his policies and principles with Obama's eloquence and charm...why, I wouldn't-a just voted for him - I'd have mated with him!

It was like that when we got here!

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 8:51 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Sergeant for President!

I think the problem is way deeper than image. I believe even if Obama himself were libertarian, he couldn't get elected.

There is some type of Political Law: A political institution, once created, cannot be made smaller or destroyed without a bloody revolution.

(This does not necessarily mean violence on the part of the rebels; even Gandhi's revolution was bloody.)

Thus, a peaceful election process will never be able to make government smaller. It seems like if everyone voted to make it so, it could theoretically happen.

But the people in power would make sure that everyone would not or could not vote to make it so. They put up obstacles in propaganda, election laws, political education of the youth, etc. If libertarian ideas ever get close to popular, there would arise major smear campaigns etc.

It ain't gonna happen in this country.

That's me, the cynic.

--------------------------
Dr. Horrible Karaoke

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:13 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Dammit, Im a dreamer.

I BELIEVE in the power of the people.

I BELIEVE that people are inherently good, and can rule themselves.

So WHY does everyone disagree with me?

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:21 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Dammit, Im a dreamer.

I BELIEVE in the power of the people.

I BELIEVE that people are inherently good, and can rule themselves.

So WHY does everyone disagree with me?

Because they live in THIS world, where even the defacto leader of the GOP has stated publicly and repeatedly that he wants the President to fail, and the economy to thus collapse, taking America down with it.

THAT is why you're a dreamer - because you refuse to accept the reality that is all around you.

Mike

I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.

- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:22 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"I BELIEVE in the power of the people."

As long as they agree with you.

"I BELIEVE that people are inherently good, and can rule themselves."

As long as they do what you want.

"So WHY does everyone disagree with me?"

Because they don't share your views of what they should think and how they should live ?

***************************************************************

Really, Wulf. You don't want people to rule themselves. You want to rule them.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:26 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Dammit, Im a dreamer.

I BELIEVE in the power of the people.

I BELIEVE that people are inherently good, and can rule themselves.

So WHY does everyone disagree with me?

I don't disagree with you.

I believe in the power of the people, that they are inherently good, and can rule themselves.

I just don't think they will be *allowed* to rule themselves by those who have the power now. Not without a bloody revolution.

I disagree that the kind of massive paradigm change advocated by Ron Paul can happen in a peaceful election process.

You are talking about a mass awakening, a mass philosophical revolution in what is understood and expected of government. That isn't going to happen without violence and major suffering.

Again, I emphasize that the violence I speak of is not necessarily an armed struggle. It could very well be government turning violent on the average citizen. It has to be something drastic and disastrous that shakes the comfortable complacency of the status quo for the people to WANT to take power into their own hands again, instead of letting "government" keep the power.

--------------------------
Dr. Horrible Karaoke

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:29 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"I BELIEVE in the power of the people."

As long as they agree with you.

"I BELIEVE that people are inherently good, and can rule themselves."

As long as they do what you want.

I believe I'll have a drink.

I don't believe in Ron Paul...he's like a Congressional Easter Bunny. Sure, I've seen him on TV and the internet...but have you ever seen him in real life?

I'm pretty sure Ron Paul is an imaginary character played by British Actor Ian McKellen.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:32 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Person who really thinks people can rule themselves:
1) Say, what do you all think we should do ?
2) What you want to do is OK with me.

Person who only pretends people can rule themselves:
1) I won't LET people do things I disagree with !
2) Why don't you agree with me and do what I want ?
3) You're all sheeple !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:34 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Rue: Stop it.

People CAN rule themselves. Even if I disagree with what they decide to do.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:36 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

He's got some great ideas, and then he goes all crazy Ivan on other issues, like national defense. It's quite upsetting, to be honest, to hear him have it so dead on accurate about the US Constitution on some matters, and then close his eyes on the reality of today on other matters.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:36 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"I don't believe in Ron Paul...he's like a Congressional Easter Bunny. Sure, I've seen him on TV and the internet...but have you ever seen him in real life?

I'm pretty sure Ron Paul is an imaginary character played by British Actor Ian McKellen."

Ahhh, Snarky McSnark...if you've read my posts, you know I've met the man....hes no imaginary character.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:41 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"People CAN rule themselves. Even if I disagree with what they decide to do."

Brought to you by the person who hates democracy.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:43 AM

WASHNWEAR

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"I don't believe in Ron Paul...he's like a Congressional Easter Bunny. Sure, I've seen him on TV and the internet...but have you ever seen him in real life?

I'm pretty sure Ron Paul is an imaginary character played by British Actor Ian McKellen."

Ahhh, Snarky McSnark...if you've read my posts, you know I've met the man....hes no imaginary character.

And, at the risk of insulting Ron Paul, I believe you (Hero) just insulted Ian McKellen. Or maybe you praised him...but dammit, McKellen could never downplay a performance that much!

It was like that when we got here!

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:45 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Democracy? You mean this past election?

That would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Obama won using the same techniques Hitler did. Propaganda mixed with charisma.

Good times.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"People CAN rule themselves. Even if I disagree with what they decide to do."

Brought to you by the person who hates democracy.

rue, are you trying to make a point?

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:48 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Wulf, ponder this - our system is set up, quite deliberately, to PREVENT people like him from getting into office, ok ?

Suppose, say 56% of the public voted for him, but only 6% of the electoral college did.
(read some history, shit like this DID happen)

That's WHY IT'S THERE, to ensure that the whole pesky will of the people thing wouldn't get in the way of Madison, Hamilton, and the other Federalists neo-feudal agenda.

Cause, yanno, americans are too stupid to make decisions for themselves, right ?

That's why if you want it done, you gotta start small, hit them at the low levels and work towards putting delegates in place, giving the guy at least a leg to stand on, yes ?

As it stands now, the whole things a sham, the nominees are hand-picked by party machines not a dimes worth different from each other, and when you vote, your state "selects" an elector, who then votes for whichever party has put the most money in their pocket regardless of what YOU voted for.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Electoral_College

As long as the party machine has control of the electors, who is "appointed" and how, your vote is meaningless, dude - it's all a shell game cause in between you and the tally, there's some hired hack tossing your vote and pulling the lever he's been paid to pull.

And in practice it's a damn secretive, closed process which amounts to a whole bunch of party-appointed hacks laughing to themselves in a back room over the gullibility of the public, since they knew over a year in advance how things are gonna go.
(Seriously, where do you think *I* get that information so early and accurately ?)

And that doesn't even scratch the surface, when you include stuff like gerrymandering and the like, which you need to get your OWN people into those offices to at least counter, you understand ?

Funny coda to that...
Despite being run out of town on a rail by em, some of the folks from my previous hometown have started collecting signatures to put me on the ballot as a State legislator, it's like they can't make up their minds - or maybe they're just pissed enough at the current state of affairs to send an attack dog up the line, I dunno.

Ain't gonna work, but it'll damn sure make some folk nervous, and I think that's the real point to it, myself, so I'll play along... for now.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:54 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Wulf: People CAN rule themselves. Even if I disagree with what they decide to do.

Rue: Brought to you by the person who hates democracy.

Wulf: rue, are you trying to make a point?

Why, yes I am ! Thank you very much for asking ! You've posted that you don't like democracy - that you think it's a way to get a bad result because people are too stupid to know what's good for them. You've also posted that you WON'T LET PEOPLE do what you disagree with. That's my point.

You really, truly do not think people can rule themselves. Unless, of course, they do what you want.

***************************************************************

So the answer to why CAN'T Ron Paul be president ?
Because the people have decided for themselves they don't want him.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 10:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Wulf: People CAN rule themselves. Even if I disagree with what they decide to do.

Rue: Brought to you by the person who hates democracy.

Wulf: rue, are you trying to make a point?

rue, that was me asking if you were trying to make a point, and I have to say, I'm not sure what it is. Where has Wulf said he won't let people do things he disagrees with?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 10:20 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Because people really do want a government that takes care of them, and they're willing to give up a fair bit of freedom for predictability and an easier life. That's the drive towards "More reward. Less punshiment". That seems to be one of the cornerstones of "human nature". Part of the "self-domesticating" process which Frem fears.

There is a fair bit of frustrated Why don't they just do what I want????? in this thread - especially from Wulf- but altho this site attracts a higher-than-average percentage of libertarians, in fact libertarians represent only a small fraction of the population.

And if you want to reverse the process, you can't just replace something with nothing, because otherwise you'll get chaos and then tyranny. (How many revolutions would up that way, when peeps got fed up with chaos?) You won't reach libertarianism by successive deletion/ elimination, but by construction of a viable alternative which offers everything that the current system offers... and more.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 10:23 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
rue, that was me asking if you were trying to make a point, and I have to say, I'm not sure what it is. Where has Wulf said he won't let people do things he disagrees with?

Signy here... In many of his posts. I'll see if I can find a link, because he said EXACTLY that.

But his disdain for those who disagree with him, and his frustration in not being able to get what he wants shines thought in every post.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 10:47 AM

FREMDFIRMA

So what, he's welcome to bitch all he wants, that's free speech, innit ?

If being bitched at was the only thing I had to fear from a governments administration, it would damn sure be an improvement!

-F

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 10:51 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Because people really do want a government that takes care of them, and they're willing to give up a fair bit of freedom for predictability and an easier life.

SargeantX said: Our nation is pretty firmly entrenched in the 'caretaker state' mentality, and people are accustomed to the idea that the government is there to take care of them.

Please enlighten - I keep hearing this from people ("everyone wants to be taken care of by the Gov") but I don't know a single person that wants this. Who are these people? Are you talking about infrastructure, healthcare, and social sercurity? People want to do those themseles? Where do you draw the line?

Ron Paul not being president - if the gopnics think it can use "Socialist" as a word bomb, then how far you think a "Libertarian" is going to get?

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 11:09 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

I just want to be free to go my own way.

Nothing more. And, GODDAMMIT, NOTHING LESS.

But today, in my home, in my country, I CAN'T.

This life is NOT what was intended! THIS is not what was meant to be. Call me naive, but I BELIEVE in personal FREEDOM.

I BELIEVE in being able to think, speak, and work how I WANT to. I am NOT a SLAVE.

Which is what the government wants of us.

And it amazes me that so many get on the victory march for the current administration. As if ANYTHING has changed.

Ron Paul has held to his beliefs, held the line, held to the truest sense of the Constitution.

And yet, you've got people

EVEN HERE,

who would argue against those freedoms.

Tell me why.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 11:39 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Fear.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 12:56 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

He's a US citizen.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 12:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Please enlighten - I keep hearing this from people ("everyone wants to be taken care of by the Gov") but I don't know a single person that wants this. Who are these people? Are you talking about infrastructure, healthcare, and social sercurity?

Yes, those, among other things. Most of the people I know want state involvement in everyday life. They expect the government to take care of their children while they are at work, to decide what's good to eat, what medicines they can take, how they can make a living, essentially how to live life. They are uncomfortable with the idea of making decisions for themselves and, apparently through some form of projection, seek to prevent others from doing so as well. They want to be told what to think and what to believe. They want to free themselves from as much responsibility as possible and avoid the repercussions of their mistakes. They want to stumble through life as ignorant children, secure in the notion that the government will protect them from all risk.

Yes, that's hyperbole, but not by much. Freedom requires a population that's able, and more importantly willing, to think for themselves. We've lost that. And I fear CTS is right, we won't get it back easily.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 1:18 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Please enlighten - I keep hearing this from people ("everyone wants to be taken care of by the Gov") but I don't know a single person that wants this. Who are these people? Are you talking about infrastructure, healthcare, and social security?

Yes, yes, and yes. Sewer lines and sewage treatment plants. Unemployment benefits. Cleaner environment. Safer foods and medicines and cars. Deposit insurance. Paid time off. Traffic lights. The internet. Flood control. Stuff that would be too costly and not generate enough revenue (or ANY revenue) and therefore not be of interest to business.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 1:22 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The inherent flaw of libertarianism is that libertarians believe that people have the right to make ANY choice... except the choice of wanting government in their lives.

Quote:
They are uncomfortable with the idea of making decisions for themselves and, apparently through some form of projection, seek to prevent others from doing so as well. They want to be told what to think and what to believe.

Which you, and Wulf, and Frem, are busy doing... telling people what they SHOULD think and believe.

And therefore it is inadmissible... anathema... that people might WANT to get together and tackle their problems collectively, to provide for themselves the services that business has no interest in fucking them over for because there's so little profit in it. God forbid that should happen!

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 1:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The inherent flaw of libertarianism is that libertarians believe that people have the right to make ANY choice... except the choice of wanting government in their lives.

Oh, well if all you're talking about is people deciding for themselves whether they want the government running their lives, we've got no problem with that.

But of course you're being coy here. What you really mean is that they want the "choice" to insist on the government running other people's lives as well. I have no desire to interfere with your desire to be taken care of. Have at it. All I ask is that you return the favor and stay out of my decision to decline such a "service".

Quote:
... you, and Wulf, and Frem, are busy doing... telling people what they SHOULD think and believe.

Not so much. See above.

Quote:
And therefore it is inadmissible... anathema... that people might WANT to get together and tackle their problems collectively, to provide for themselves the services that business has no interest in fucking them over for because there's so little profit in it. God forbid that should happen!

You know this isn't so, yet you keep repeating it. I've stated on numerous occasions (as have Frem, CTS, et. al.) that I'm very enthusiastic about getting together and solving problems collectively. What I'm opposed to is forcing such solutions on people who might not want them. Isn't that what you're really talking about?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 2:05 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Democracy? You mean this past election?

That would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Obama won using the same techniques Hitler did. Propaganda mixed with charisma.

Good times.

But did he WIN the election?

And this is the exact point Rue was making - you're all for democracy, except when it doesn't go your way. Then it's obviously a fraud.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 2:07 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"I don't believe in Ron Paul...he's like a Congressional Easter Bunny. Sure, I've seen him on TV and the internet...but have you ever seen him in real life?

I'm pretty sure Ron Paul is an imaginary character played by British Actor Ian McKellen."

Ahhh, Snarky McSnark...if you've read my posts, you know I've met the man....hes no imaginary character.

But as far as *I* know, YOU'RE an imaginary character!

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 2:12 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Please enlighten - I keep hearing this from people ("everyone wants to be taken care of by the Gov") but I don't know a single person that wants this. Who are these people? Are you talking about infrastructure, healthcare, and social security?
Yes, yes, and yes. Sewer lines and sewage treatment plants. Unemployment benefits. Cleaner environment. Safer foods and medicines and cars. Deposit insurance. Paid time off. Traffic lights. The internet. Flood control. Stuff that would be too costly and not generate enough revenue (or ANY revenue) and therefore not be of interest to business.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

You want these things to be replaced by non-gov/private groups? Or...?

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 2:16 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Please enlighten - I keep hearing this from people ("everyone wants to be taken care of by the Gov") but I don't know a single person that wants this. Who are these people? Are you talking about infrastructure, healthcare, and social sercurity?

Yes, those, among other things. Most of the people I know want state involvement in everyday life. They expect the government to take care of their children while they are at work, to decide what's good to eat, what medicines they can take, how they can make a living, essentially how to live life. They are uncomfortable with the idea of making decisions for themselves and, apparently through some form of projection, seek to prevent others from doing so as well. They want to be told what to think and what to believe. They want to free themselves from as much responsibility as possible and avoid the repercussions of their mistakes. They want to stumble through life as ignorant children, secure in the notion that the government will protect them from all risk.

Where the hell do you live?? Everyone I know, from the wealthiest to the poorest want Uncle Sam to do his deal, but keep the hell off my front yard. They *DO* want some stuff for their taxes though - we paid for it let's have it. Like roads and health care... take fiddy off the top for guns and ammo, then what else we paying for?

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 2:18 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
All I ask is that you return the favor and stay out of my decision to decline such a "service".

Again, how does an individual absent themselves from the collective good?

There are SOME services you can opt out of... healthcare, for example. There are SOME services that can be billed on a per-use basis- for example, taxing vehicle fuels to pay for roadwork. But how do YOU exempt yourself from being able to breathe cleaner air because somebody else paid to put a boot up industry's *ss? How do YOU exempt yourself from a high-tech living standard because somebody else decided that all qualified children should have a shot at higher education? How do YOU exempt yourself from the freedom from being aggressively panhandled because somebody else paid for psychiatrict treatment for PTSD vets? Or exempt yourself from the safety of your national borders because somebody else paid for a defense force?

Realistically, it's like Rapo wanting risk-free capitalism, or wishing for a freezing-hot day. Realistically, the only way for you to exempt yourself from both the benefits and the costs of living in a system you don't like is to isolate yourself within it so thoroughy that you have NO contact with it whatsover, or leave it. I don't see any other way, do you? And the answer is: YOU DON'T. You disguise your argument as simply wanting to be "left alone", but know that society (and economics) isn't like a smorgasboard, that it's too interconnected to pick and choose, your only proposal is to change society. And that's why you're so frustrated: Because most peeps don't want to change just to meet your expectations. They have other goals in mind.

Quote:
then what else we paying for?

Cough syrup and toothpaste that's not contaminated with anti-freeze, and milk not contaminated with melamine. Air that's fit to breathe. Water that's fit to drink. The assurance that widespread epidemics of polio will not sweep the nation. I can think of LOTS of things that most peeps take for granted.

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 3:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
There are SOME services you can opt out of... healthcare, for example. There are SOME services that can be billed on a per-use basis- for example, taxing vehicle fuels to pay for roadwork. But how do YOU exempt yourself from being able to breathe cleaner air because somebody else paid to put a boot up industry's *ss?

You can't. And that's why I'm not an outright anarchist. I'm just saying, as I've explained probably twenty or thirty times on here, that we should only resort to "majority rule" in situations where the goals are critical, consensus is very high, or the imposition very minor compared to the benefit. Clean air is one those kinds of issues. Military another.

What I'm opposed to is being coerced into participating in a program that I don't like, merely because someone convinced the majority that it's a nifty idea. It's the concept of unlimited democracy that I'm opposed to. The balance struck with the creation of US was a respect for the desires of the majority (on matters you can't "opt out of", as you pointed out), with sharp limitations on the majority's ability to lord it over the minority.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 3:09 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
consensus is very high

Well, consensus is very high, just not in your favor. And opting out is not an option.

So, what are you going to do about it?

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 3:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
consensus is very high
Well, consensus is very high, just not in your favor. And opting out is not an option.

So, what are you going to do about it?

It depends on how high the consensus is, and how much the decision imposes on those who disagree.

Unless the decision is particularly egregious, I'd just buck up and deal with it. If the decision is intolerable, I guess I'd either leave the country or go underground.

To be clear, when I say the "consensus is very high", I'm talking 95% plus. A good example would be public education. I'm opposed to it, but I'm not willing to incite rebellion over it.

On the other hand, even if 99.9% of the population decided that atheists are subhuman and should be treated as slaves, I'd raise hell (so to speak,

).

The thing is, the constitution is there to protect us from such misuses of democracy. That's why some of us are so adamant about following its limitations strictly.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 4:07 PM